PDOX Games VIII: Communism Will Win

[The Imperial Reach]

I highly doubt Catholics would flee to pagan realms in order to avoid persecution. That'd like Jews fleeing to Nazi Germany to avoid persecution.

Why not? What is it that makes catholics so special compared to every other faith?

Also, I do not think you understand what I am talking about. The sort of people that convert monarchies top down aren't peasants fleeing prosecution. It's the former elite, the educated clergy or nobility (the two overlapped) who are now out of a job. That's the sort of people who would be welcomed into pagan reals by ambitious kings because they are learned and well versed in running things. It's how Christianity spread into a lot of pagan nations historically. Only now there are no strings attached as these people are NOT obvious servants of some foreign monarch. So they seem like the ideal catch.

And than they poison the mind of the leader.

"Poison"

[Holy Tedalonia]

I highly doubt Catholics would flee to pagan realms in order to avoid persecution. That'd like Jews fleeing to Nazi Germany to avoid persecution.

Why not? What is it that makes catholics so special compared to every other faith?

Funny that I didnt see catholics leave france, spain, or italy when the germans conquered them back during the fall of rome.

[The Imperial Reach]

Why not? What is it that makes catholics so special compared to every other faith?

Funny that I didnt see catholics leave france, spain, or italy when the germans conquered them back during the fall of rome.

No Christian population has ever migrated from their homeland after being conquered by non-believers. They either converted to the new religion, were reduced to a minority, or converted the invaders to Christianity.

[Impaled Nazarene]

Just found out you cant convert to animal cultures aside from Horse, Cat, or Bear if your game is not a random world with animals enabled. A damn shame cause i made a character with dragon traits and stats only to find out that the changing culture does not work for dragon. Now I have to settle for being a bear instead of an Immortal Dutch Fracticelli Dragon

Edit: Oh Great I just became Aldrich

[Purpelia]

Why not? What is it that makes catholics so special compared to every other faith?

Funny that I didnt see catholics leave france, spain, or italy when the germans conquered them back during the fall of rome.

Because the conquerors of those lands were christian and either tolerant or outright turned catholic fairly quickly. Seriously, do you think Charlemagne became the "Holy" Roman Emperor by being a pagan?

Funny that I didnt see catholics leave france, spain, or italy when the germans conquered them back during the fall of rome.

No Christian population has ever migrated from their homeland after being conquered by non-believers. They either converted to the new religion, were reduced to a minority, or converted the invaders to Christianity.

The now dispossessed church and political elite however are another story. What else is a bishop going to do once he gets told his branch of Christianity is no longer in vogue and he isn't a bishop any more? Die, convert or flee. And if there is a gullible group of pagans just on the other side of the border waiting to be converted he might just do #3.

It's not so outlandish either historically speaking. Just look at say Aryanism, a doctrine barred in the Roman Empire but which flourished among barbarians such as the Vandals. Or how the Church of the East spread as far East as China after having their homeland conquered by the Muslims.

[Impaled Nazarene]

Funny that I didnt see catholics leave france, spain, or italy when the germans conquered them back during the fall of rome.

Because the conquerors of those lands were christian and either tolerant or outright turned catholic fairly quickly. Seriously, do you think Charlemagne became the "Holy" Roman Emperor by being a pagan?

No Christian population has ever migrated from their homeland after being conquered by non-believers. They either converted to the new religion, were reduced to a minority, or converted the invaders to Christianity.

The now dispossessed church and political elite however are another story. What else is a bishop going to do once he gets told his branch of Christianity is no longer in vogue and he isn't a bishop any more? Die, convert or flee. And if there is a gullible group of pagans just on the other side of the border waiting to be converted he might just do #3.

It's not so outlandish either historically speaking. Just look at say Aryanism, a doctrine barred in the Roman Empire but which flourished among barbarians such as the Vandals. Or how the Church of the East spread as far East as China after having their homeland conquered by the Muslims.

*Arianism.

[Purpelia]

Because the conquerors of those lands were christian and either tolerant or outright turned catholic fairly quickly. Seriously, do you think Charlemagne became the "Holy" Roman Emperor by being a pagan?


The now dispossessed church and political elite however are another story. What else is a bishop going to do once he gets told his branch of Christianity is no longer in vogue and he isn't a bishop any more? Die, convert or flee. And if there is a gullible group of pagans just on the other side of the border waiting to be converted he might just do #3.

It's not so outlandish either historically speaking. Just look at say Aryanism, a doctrine barred in the Roman Empire but which flourished among barbarians such as the Vandals. Or how the Church of the East spread as far East as China after having their homeland conquered by the Muslims.

*Arianism.

I'll be the first to admit that I have no idea how to spell obscure dead Christian sects. Thanks for the correction.

[Grenartia]

*Arianism.

I'll be the first to admit that I have no idea how to spell obscure dead Christian sects. Thanks for the correction.

"Dead Christian sex" sounds exactly like the kind of thing that happens in CK2.

[The Imperial Reach]

Funny that I didnt see catholics leave france, spain, or italy when the germans conquered them back during the fall of rome.

Because the conquerors of those lands were christian and either tolerant or outright turned catholic fairly quickly. Seriously, do you think Charlemagne became the "Holy" Roman Emperor by being a pagan?

No Christian population has ever migrated from their homeland after being conquered by non-believers. They either converted to the new religion, were reduced to a minority, or converted the invaders to Christianity.

The now dispossessed church and political elite however are another story. What else is a bishop going to do once he gets told his branch of Christianity is no longer in vogue and he isn't a bishop any more? Die, convert or flee. And if there is a gullible group of pagans just on the other side of the border waiting to be converted he might just do #3.

It's not so outlandish either historically speaking. Just look at say Aryanism, a doctrine barred in the Roman Empire but which flourished among barbarians such as the Vandals. Or how the Church of the East spread as far East as China after having their homeland conquered by the Muslims.

There's a pretty big gap between Charlemagne and the Frankish invasion, Purp. Likewise, the Franks of Charlemagne's time were pretty different from the Franks who invaded Gaul.

Not to mention the Church of the East had a presence in China long before Islam was a thing. The Church of the East was once the largest church by the sheer extension of it's clerical authority; stretching from the Levant all the way to Manchuria. The only difference from the other churches was that it was never a majority anywhere it was practiced save for Mesopotamia. Had Islam not raped the church to death, it might've converted all of Persia and Central Asia.

*Arianism.

I'll be the first to admit that I have no idea how to spell obscure dead Christian sects. Thanks for the correction.

"Obscure"? It was the first heresy of the Christian faith predating even Nestorianism.

I'll be the first to admit that I have no idea how to spell obscure dead Christian sects. Thanks for the correction.

"Dead Christian sex" sounds exactly like the kind of thing that happens in CK2.

Sounds like a metal band.

[Purpelia]

There's a pretty big gap between Charlemagne and the Frankish invasion, Purp. Likewise, the Franks of Charlemagne's time were pretty different from the Franks who invaded Gaul.

Yes and no. Most of the conquering barbarians that chipped off bits of the Roman empire either were christian them self like the Vandals or were reasonably tolerant simply because it isn't worth it to immediately start a civil war over religion in the places you conquer. And that eventually lead to conversion in order to become more in tune with the people they ended up ruling.

An interesting contrast to this are the former Byzantine territories where conversion was largely seen as a political move in order to secure grants and alliances from the Eastern Romans. Which seems to me to be what the mass top down conversion mechanics are representing.

Not to mention the Church of the East had a presence in China long before Islam was a thing. The Church of the East was once the largest church by the sheer extension of it's clerical authority; stretching from the Levant all the way to Manchuria. The only difference from the other churches was that it was never a majority anywhere it was practiced save for Mesopotamia. Had Islam not raped the church to death, it might've converted all of Persia and Central Asia.

It is my understanding that they kept flourishing well into the Islamic age largely because of needing to spread somewhere better.

I might be wrong here.

"Obscure"? It was the first heresy of the Christian faith predating even Nestorianism.

Maybe not to you or I who have an interest in the field but for most people the only Christian "heresy" they heard off are the Protestants. And only because it's turned mainstream and became a religion in its own right. And maybe a couple others like the Mormons or JW. But most people don't realize that these are effectively the same sort of thing.

[Bralia]

11 days? What the fuck!? This is what I get for being blissfully unaware of what day it is all the time. I did NOT realize that we're less than two weeks away now.

[The Imperial Reach]

An interesting contrast to this are the former Byzantine territories where conversion was largely seen as a political move in order to secure grants and alliances from the Eastern Romans. Which seems to me to be what the mass top down conversion mechanics are representing.

It's specifically based on the mass conversion of the Rus' under Vladimir I.

It is my understanding that they kept flourishing well into the Islamic age largely because of needing to spread somewhere better.

I might be wrong here.

Well, yes and no.

The Church already had a presence as far east as China before the advent of Islam. Christianity was over 600 years old by the time of Muhammad, so it had plenty of time to spread throughout most of the known world as a result. The issue was it couldn't gain as much traction in the east as it did in the west primarily because of the Persian Empire; which acted as a roadblock against eastern expansion since it had little tolerance for Christianity (which was largely seen as a "Roman" thing and they didn't exactly like the Romans). There was also the issue that Christianity was far less appealing to the other organized religions of the age (Taoism, Buddhism, Jainism, Hinduism, and Zoroastrianism) than it was to disorganized pagan religions. The exception was Judaism, as Jews were far more likely to convert to Christianity than the others on account of Jesus (according to us Christians) being the long-awaited messiah whereas the other organized religions lacked a direct connection to Christianity and the One God of Abrahamism. Had Islam never entered the picture, Christianity likely would have eventually taken over Persia as it's monotheism and it's beliefs in general were more in-tune with Zoroastrianism than the other eastern religions. It likely would've involved identifying Jesus as the Saoshyant or some-such.

But anyway, the Persian Bulwark sort of stopped the major spread of Christianity eastward until it was stomped by the Caliphate. Islamic law basically says to treat people who follow other religions as second-class citizens and is essentially designed to ensure these religions remain a continuously dwindling minority that will eventually die off as it's adherents convert to Islam in order to receive better and more equal treatment in Islamic society. This strategy made it more likely for conquered peoples to convert as well as nullify the spread of other religions in the Caliphate. This created a bit of push for the Church of the East, in which many began fleeing from the Caliphate and it's discriminatory laws. Some fled to the West and the safety of Christendom, but others went east to find sanctuary in already established Christian communities that were outside the reach of the Caliphate and thus helping them to grow.

It's not that they fled and founded new communities, but rather that they fled to already existing communities and helped them flourish.

[The Grene Knyght]

Been getting really into CK2 recently but does anyone else get instant random gameovers when peasants revolt? Was playing a game as a patrician of Venice, had about 400 troops I could raise, then there was a Cathar revolt with 3,000 troops and all I could do was watch game over arrive. Gotta be at least the 3rd time that's happened to me and there doesn't seem to be anything that can be done about it.

[Holy Tedalonia]

Funny that I didnt see catholics leave france, spain, or italy when the germans conquered them back during the fall of rome.

Because the conquerors of those lands were christian and either tolerant or outright turned catholic fairly quickly.

Given the time period, faith wasnt the predominant force that Influenced all of society. Thus tolerance was for the most part a thing.

Seriously, do you think Charlemagne became the "Holy" Roman Emperor by being a pagan?

Yes given that theres like a 300 year difference.

[Purpelia]

Seriously, do you think Charlemagne became the "Holy" Roman Emperor by being a pagan?

Yes given that theres like a 300 year difference.[/quote]
Point is that the Christian community survived for those 300 years just fine.

[Genivaria]

ALL HANDS ON DECK!
KAISERREICH UPDATE NOW COMPATIBLE WITH MAN THE GUNS!

New Kaiserreich Patch: Return Of The Kaiser!
https://www.reddit.com/r/Kaiserreich/co ... er_is_out/

[Renoa]

The more I listen to Imperator's siren song the more I'm drawn in, but I need to remind myself that if I want to pick up a habit that will cost me ever increasing amounts of money for diminishing pleasure I should probably pick something less hazardous, like heroin.

[Impaled Nazarene]

The more I listen to Imperator's siren song the more I'm drawn in, but I need to remind myself that if I want to pick up a habit that will cost me ever increasing amounts of money for diminishing pleasure I should probably pick something less hazardous, like heroin.

Would sig but my sig is broken.
Have a Thread title instead

[The Huskar Social Union]

The more I listen to Imperator's siren song the more I'm drawn in, but I need to remind myself that if I want to pick up a habit that will cost me ever increasing amounts of money for diminishing pleasure I should probably pick something less hazardous, like heroin.

Would sig but my sig is broken.
Have a Thread title instead

[Bralia]

Giant modding Dev Diary that I wouldn't understand even if I tried.

Though it's worth taking a peek at because at the end of it, one of the official end screens is shown off. It won't just be your stats showing up anymore, you'll be actively judged by the Paradox Devs on how well you did, the pricks.

[Impaled Nazarene]

Would sig but my sig is broken.
Have a Thread title instead

All good things must come to an end Comrade Huskar...except the revolution.

[The Imperial Reach]

All good things must come to an end Comrade Huskar...except the revolution.

I'll admit I was a bit scared there for a minute... until I realized the revolution ended in 1991. Then I laughed.

[Lunas Legion]

All good things must come to an end Comrade Huskar...except the revolution.

I'll admit I was a bit scared there for a minute... until I realized the revolution ended in 1991. Then I laughed.

That was one revolution.

There shall be another.

What is dead may never die but rises again harder and stronger.

[Genivaria]

TFW I finally get a 1 TB Hard Drive for my laptop.
So many Steam Games to download!

[The Imperial Reach]

I'll admit I was a bit scared there for a minute... until I realized the revolution ended in 1991. Then I laughed.

That was one revolution.

There shall be another.

What is dead may never die but rises again harder and stronger.

*looks at Venezuela*

Sure, okay.