Star Wars: The Force Shall Free Us All

[Fedel]

Too bad the ST hasn't managed to do that.

None of you want to actually expand on these "points" (except, of course, to talk about worldbuilding and Force powers) and on the rare occasions you do, you talk a bunch of nonsense that showcases the extent of your ignorance and, very often, hypocrisy.

It's like a thread populated entirely by Vassenor clones.

If I try to talk to any of you about Rey's arc--even if I straight up quote the movie--you'll just claim it doesn't exist then pivot away to moan about how she lifted too many rocks or some nonsense. You want to circlejerk about how bad the films are without doing any of the work required to demonstrate that your opinions are informed opinions.

The problem with this assertion is that you're asking us to provide reasons for the LACK of something when the existence of that lack makes it nearly impossible to do outside of simply saying that it lacks those qualities you assert it to have.

If you believe that Rey's motivation/arc is extremely fleshed out and makes sense it's on YOU to explain why you think that is and then at that point it would be on us to elaborate on why we disagree with your position.

To ask us to explain why we think something is lacking outside of the simple statement that the lack exists though is redundant.

[Fedel]

And yes, you're likely going to say that you HAVE elaborated on why you believe Rey is a well fleshed out/logical character and what I'll say to you is that I have given my reasons why I believe that is NOT the case in prior posts as well. The point is, if you're going to continue to bring up your love of the ST movies and Rey as a character and not provide any new or even reiterated points you'd like to dispute then it's unreasonable to get upset when other people give their own unsubstantiated views.

[Ism]

I was going to explain to y'all what Rey's arc is and snidely dismiss the idea that any of you know jack shit about this stuff. But I've got a better idea:

Can any of you actually identify Rey's arc? Like, give a brief overview and identify some major beats?

Now, I know you're going to be tempted to say "Ha! Course I can't because the films are so awful!" Let's not do that, hmm?

Because TLJ, if not TFA, is very clear about its character arcs. Whether you like the film or not, it shouldn't be hard to identify Rey's (not least because I alluded to it on the previous page, so there's a clue if you're stuck). If all you can do is whine about Force abilities and training and talk about your personal feelings, then you have no business talking about good and bad characters.

Let's look at Rey's arcs then. But first, I want to make this very clear, a character arc is not inherently good, and it is not inherently bad. Similarly, a dynamic character is not inherently superior to a static character, nor is a static character inherently superior to a dynamic one. These are tools in the writer's toolbox, each useful in their own way, and it is in how they are used that their value is determined.

Additionally, for those who are ever more annoyed by this endless bickering, I will spoiler my arguments. I hope that at least lessens your annoyance, and if it does not I apologize.

Rey begins this episode as a naive, kindhearted young woman who is fascinated by stories of the Force and the Jedi, as well as the Galactic Civil War. She dreams that her parents will come back, to rescue her from her hellish existence on Jakku, and that this will open up this amazing galaxy she has studied for her to experience personally. This is why she does not wish to leave Jakku, and why she wishes to return later in the film. Note, that despite her parents being drunken lowlifes who abandoned her to said hellish existence, arguably the worst sort of slavery, and the complete lack of positive role models, she is not merely a good person at heart, but overwhelmingly a good person. Her only dark trait is how quick she is to use violence, and that only really becomes a trait in TLJ. So, at the start of TFA, her character is already confusing, because everything about her upbringing would point to her having a much darker personality. But I guess we're just going all in on nature in the nature vs nurture debate here.

Now, let's look at her character at the end of TFA. She is still naive, as TLJ will show, no less kindhearted, still enraptured with those stories, maybe even more now that she knows they're true and she's a Force adept. So what has changed about her? Where has this arc taken Rey? She no longer wants to return to Jakku! Yep, that's it. She's still desperate to connect to her parents, TLJ proves that, so she clearly hasn't moved past her parental issues, she just no longer thinks they'll come back to Jakku for her. All that changes about Rey, as a character, is that she is no longer determined to return to Jakku.

But let's look at how this happened. What was the deciding factor here? Well, obviously the inciting incident for her arc is the First Order attacking the camp. This forces her to leave the planet on the Falcon with BB8 and Finn. While this gets her off Jakku, she still has every intention of returning once they've gotten BB8 to the Resistance, so clearly this is not the end of her arc. The next time this is touched upon is with Maz, who tells her she needs to look ahead of her, not behind her. But Rey rejects this, so clearly this isn't the end of her arc either. But this is the last time Jakku or her parents are talked about, with the exception of an offhand comment from Ren later, but that's irrelevant to Rey's arc. Because Rey is captured by Kylo after this, and then escapes, meets up with Finn, watches Han die, fights Kylo, returns to the Resistance and then leaves to find Luke. She has no realization, no moment where she comes to understand she can't just go back to Jakku, or that her parents aren't coming back. Essentially, her character arc skips a beat, from rejecting the epiphany to having already accepted it, without showing us the most important part of the arc, the acceptance itself. Did she come around to what Maz said? Did she realize the FIrst Order would find her again if she tried to hide on Jakku? Was she motivated by a desire to avenge Han? Some combination of these? Was it something else entirely? There is no answer, because we don't see her acceptance of this hard truth, we can't know why she changed, she just did.

Owing to the almost nonexistent time skip, Rey is the same character at the start of TLJ she was at the end of TFA, which is to say, basically the same character she was at the start of TFA. Naive, kindhearted, still enjoying those stories, I think she especially likes thinking herself part those stories, but that's merely my opinion, and as previously noted her one-off rush to violence becomes a trend in this film. TLJ does build off of TFA though, giving Rey a great deal of anger at Kylo Ren. And she still desperate to connect to her parents, willing to risk the Dark Side to find answers to her questions.

So where does Rey end her arc in TLJ? She no longer hates Kylo Ren. But that is all that is certain. Maybe she no longer cares about finding her parents, but that is not certain. After all, she doesn't actually know any more then she did at the start of TFA, she has simply stopped denying what she already knew. It's up to Episode IX to pick up that thread. So, all of TLJ for Rey, in terms of character development, is going from hating Kylo Ren to sympathizing with him. A difficult task, to be sure but I'm sure a great deal of time was dedicated to showing how Rey could have such a massive shift in her view of him... and it gets less than 6* minutes, not even a week after what caused Rey to hate him happened. Must have been a riveting 6 minutes. Let's take a closer look.

Their first encounter has him try to mentally dominate her after she tries to shoot him. So obviously that hasn't helped progress their relationship. Next, Ren implies he had a reason to destroy Luke's academy and admits he's a monster. I guess that's one way to win someone over. After that, she asks him why he killed Han. He never answers her, only saying he didn't hate his father, and then tells her how he remembers the night he destroyed Luke's academy. This is the conversation where she seems to change her view on him, so let's get deeper into it. Rey asks him why Ren killed Han, and why he hated his father. Ren responds that he didn't hate Han, meaning he killed his father in cold blood. And he never actually explains why he killed Han, we know it was because he thought it would make him more powerful but, he doesn't bring that up. His recollection is that Luke tried to kill him, and in response he killed all of Luke's students, save those that joined him, and destroys the academy. And leaves Luke alive of course, because reasons. Anyway, Rey takes the word of the admitted cold-blooded murder/genocidal fascist at face value, because reasons, and starts warming up to him. In the last of these meetings, Rey says she was wrong about everything, including her issues with Ren. And she's certainly wrong about that now.

So, looking over all of this, how does Rey come to see Ren can be redeemed? He admits to cold-blooded murder, tries to dominate her mind, fails to provide any reason, never-mind a good one, for killing Luke's students or his father and declares himself a monster. Masterfully done. This is Rey's arc, coming to trust in a mentally unbalanced, emotionally unstable genocidal fascist. Because reasons.

And she doesn't go back on this, not really, she maintains her belief Ren can be redeemed to the end of TLJ. How do I know this? Because she leaves him, alive, on the Supremacy, where he can easily assume control of the First Order and destroy the Resistance, and then put his ideology of destruction to work on a galactic scale. She doesn't determine he's too far gone and execute him. She just leaves him. It's better than reverting to her original point of view and killing him, I suppose, because then her character arc would be as pointless as it is stupid.

*This is the video I used to reach that 6 minute number. Very shoddy quality, that's why I'm dropping it down here.

Rey does indeed have a a character arc in each film, there's no denying that. But they are done very poorly. TFA's skips over the most important part the arc, and has very little impact on Rey as a character. TLJ's has greater impact, but it requires Rey to be an idiot, and it still leaves almost all of her character untouched. Neither film diminishes her naivete, neither film hardens her heart, neither film shows her learning to be less quick to use violence. There are some ifs and maybes in there, I'll grant you that, but ifs and maybes do not a good character arc make.

[Korhal IVV]

If they made Rey's parents to be the best students of Luke Skywalker and that Kylo Ren only said that they were no one because they were no one to him, the question of her parentage would be answered with a glorious answer in Episode 9.

[Vassenor]

If they made Rey's parents to be the best students of Luke Skywalker and that Kylo Ren only said that they were no one because they were no one to him, the question of her parentage would be answered with a glorious answer in Episode 9.

Why is it so important that we know the ins and outs of her lineage? Surely the whole point is that legacy is not the be all and end all.

[Platypus Bureaucracy]

None of you want to actually expand on these "points" (except, of course, to talk about worldbuilding and Force powers) and on the rare occasions you do, you talk a bunch of nonsense that showcases the extent of your ignorance and, very often, hypocrisy.

It's like a thread populated entirely by Vassenor clones.

If I try to talk to any of you about Rey's arc--even if I straight up quote the movie--you'll just claim it doesn't exist then pivot away to moan about how she lifted too many rocks or some nonsense. You want to circlejerk about how bad the films are without doing any of the work required to demonstrate that your opinions are informed opinions.

The problem with this assertion is that you're asking us to provide reasons for the LACK of something when the existence of that lack makes it nearly impossible to do outside of simply saying that it lacks those qualities you assert it to have.

If you believe that Rey's motivation/arc is extremely fleshed out and makes sense it's on YOU to explain why you think that is and then at that point it would be on us to elaborate on why we disagree with your position.

To ask us to explain why we think something is lacking outside of the simple statement that the lack exists though is redundant.

It's very easy to identify when a character is lacking. Just like when you went off on your "Chell is how you're really supposed to write women" skit, it was very easy for people to point out how absurd that was.

[Platypus Bureaucracy]

SNIP

I'm not going to talk about TFA, because I largely agree that her arc goes off the rails in the second half. And I really can't be bothered to argue with your ideas about the sort of person Rey should be from her upbringing because that would take us stupidly far away from the point. With TLJ, however, you are wrong, as usual.

You seem to have got distracted by her attitude towards Kylo. Her arc isn't something as banal as "changing her attitude towards one particular person" (what do you think this is, Empire Strikes Back?). This has resulted in you missing her real arc. It's kind of weird that you spend so much time here talking about Rey's feelings towards another person, as if any change she undergoes has to be defined through him. You seem to be...well, looking for character development in the wrong place. You've also got a bit caught up in this quick-to-violence thing; I've no idea why.

I'm kind of disappointed; I expected you to identify her arc correctly then dismiss it as a bad one because it shows that she's too powerful or something.

Rey's arc is, in short, is this:

"Gaining self-esteem"

Rey wants someone else to take responsibility. She needs someone like Luke to teach her, and to come back and take care of the Kylo and the First Order so she doesn't have to. TLJ hits this over and over again, as I mentioned the other day, so it's thoroughly depressing that no one seems able to identify it, which generally speaks to the lack of film literacy that's rife among the fandom.

First, she tries to hand him the lightsaber (this is important, because this moment is repeated just before she leaves). Then they have their conversation where she asks him to come back and all that. Then she follows him all round the island, because there's no way she's going to give up on him that quick, for reasons that will become obvious (or should be obvious, at any rate) and they have that conversation in the tree. We've got a couple of key lines here. When asked who she is, Rey simply responds like this:

The Resistance sent me.

She repeats this later in the scene too. She practically clings too her nobody-ness, trying to avoid talking about herself as Luke presses her. The Resistance is important. She's not. She eventually gives in and we get this:

I'm afraid. I don't know what it is or what to do with it. And I need help.

This is really the key point underlying Rey's actions (although it's articulated better later with "I need someone to show me my place in all this"). She longs for external validation, for guidance and instruction, and when she doesn't get it, her response is to get someone else to take responsibility. What she needs to do is believe in herself to be the hero she can be, regardless of whether others tell her she can be. And she does. We get hints of it when she identifies the Force inside herself (because the Force belongs to her as much as to Luke and the Jedi!) and trains with the lightsaber on her own,

Kylo failed you. I won't.

We're getting somewhere now. There's a hint of self-worth in here, but it's still centred on another person, on Luke.

Kylo psycho-analyses her a bit about her issues during their conversations, pointing out that she's looking for her parents in various people, hits her with her greatest weakness about them throwing her away like garbage. But you've focused on him in those conversations. Obviously, if you don't look at Rey when looking for Rey's arc, you'll probably miss it. There's a great line where Rey all but sobs that he had a father who loved him, and she's seriously angry at him for casually throwing away the thing she's always wanted as if it means nothing, reinforcing just how deep her parental issues go. You seem to have identified those, to your credit. You've just somehow missed that they're critical to her arc.

So Rey goes off to the cave, but rather than showing her her parents (or any other form of external validation) there's just her. Just Rey. And that ought to be enough, but instead it makes her feel alone.

After all the stuff about Luke wanting to kill Kylo, Rey once again tries to hand Luke the lightsaber, and when he refuses:

Then [Kylo]'s our last hope.

It's obvious what's wrong with that statement, and it speaks volumes. Rey still doesn't consider herself a potential hero. Even after all she's seen and learned.

We're seeing hints of a change, though. She tells Snoke that he underestimates "Skywalker, and Ben Solo, and me." The Rey from the start of the film would have stopped at "Ben Solo". She tries to fight in the throne room, but obviously Snoke is too powerful. We're almost there, but Rey's never going to truly stand on her own two feet if she thinks there's someone else around to do it, so the film gives her exactly the push she needs.

Kylo won't turn.

Now, this is THE pivotal moment in her arc, so naturally you didn't mention it at all.

Kylo offers her his hand (after taking care to once again bring her low by emphasising that her parents were nobody, and the only way she'll have a place in the story is to join him). So now Rey is faced with a choice. Luke didn't give her the validation she longs for, and now the only way she can get it from Kylo is to join the dark. There's no one left to take up the legacy of the Jedi. She can either stand up or give up. Take his hand or take the lightsaber. Accept the place he'll give her, or take whatever place she wants and be the person she wants to be.

So she grabs the lightsaber, the thing she's spent so much of the film trying to hand off to someone else. And now she fights for it as Kylo tries to cling to it.

That's really it. The last act is cementing this change. Rey goes to Crait, ready and eager for the fight. She uses the Force, saves the Resistance, and takes her place as the hero she could have been all along.

So, the simple way we'd identify the arc is that Rey begins trying to get someone else to act, and she ends by acting herself. There's an undeniable arc here, and I think it's a hell of a good one. It's probably my second favourite in SW. It's miles better than anything the prequels have to offer. I noticed some cool new details just writing this out, like the significance of the lightsaber, first in the training scene and then when she grabs it.

I wonder what you'll say to that? That I'm seeing things that aren't there? That I'm getting too far into it? That Johnson probably didn't mean to put any of this in because the man behind Looper obviously doesn't get writing like you do? I don't know. I don't think you'll concede that I have any sort of point, because that would mean admitting that you're not as film literate as you think you are, which is something TLJ-haters absolutely cannot do.

But we'll see.

[New haven america]

We get it, you like a shitty movie, move on already!

You know, that's not a bad thing, I unironically like Episode III and don't mind Episode I (It's not good, but it's not horrible either), but I still acknowledge that they're pretty bad and have no problem making fun of them while pointing out both the good and bad parts. It's ok to like something that's not good, you don't need to defend TLJ as if it's a beached whale that'll die if it doesn't have praise upon heaped continually.

[The Huskar Social Union]

Just do what i do.

"I like this thing"
"I dont like this thing"
"K"

[Platypus Bureaucracy]

Just do what i do.

"I like this thing"
"I dont like this thing"
"K"

I strongly approve of this method. There's a reason I don't criticise Huskar in this thread, even when he says things I disagree with, and it's not just because I like him. He doesn't try to frame his personal feelings on a film as fact.

We get it, you like a shitty movie, move on already!

You know, that's not a bad thing, I unironically like Episode III and don't mind Episode I (It's not good, but it's not horrible either), but I still acknowledge that they're pretty bad and have no problem making fun of them while pointing out both the good and bad parts. It's ok to like something that's not good, you don't need to defend TLJ as if it's a beached whale that'll die if it doesn't have praise upon heaped continually.

I'm not the one who started bitching about how bad Rey was.

Note how I didn't frame most of my post around my opinion. I was talking about the arc. The real problem here is people who had a negative emotional reaction to the film deciding that means it must be bad (to the point that those people *ahem!* think they can just assert it's bad because [--insert movie jargon here--] without actually making the argument).

I really didn't enjoy Phantom Thread, but I wouldn't dare to insist that it's a bad movie just because I personally had a bad time watching it. On reflection, in fact, I think it is probably a very good movie, and if I had the willpower to put myself through watching it again, I expect I would probably be able to make a strong argument for that, even though I will probably never like that film.

I quite like parts of Rogue One, even though I think it's very mediocre. But there are films I like that I think are good. TLJ is one of them. Imagine if I told you to just admit that, I don't know, Toy Story is a bad movie. You'd probably think I was mad.

[Alvecia]

Just do what i do.

"I like this thing"
"I dont like this thing"
"K"

Relevant

[The Huskar Social Union]

Just do what i do.

"I like this thing"
"I dont like this thing"
"K"

Relevant

THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO EXIST WHO LIKE THAT THING AND WE WILL NOT BE SILENCED!!!

Fucking love that mans videos.

[Platypus Bureaucracy]

S3E2:

So, this is part three of a trilogy about these clones that goes S3E1-->S1E5-->S3E2.

This is bonkers. Dave Filoni is the guy lots of fans say should be in charge of Lucasfilm's creative direction, right? Are they crazy, or does he get his shit together at some point?

Good episode, at least on the clones' side of things. Bit predictable with 99, though.

The clones are now ARC troopers. Based on my experience with the old battlefront, I understand this means they'll fill one of two possible battlefield roles:

1. Fire their rocket launcher, miss, and then get shot dead during the four-hour long reloading process
2. Fire their rocket launcher, miss, switch to a shitty little pistol and then get shot dead because their enemy has a rifle

RIP Fives and Echo. Taken too soon.

[Fedel]

The problem with this assertion is that you're asking us to provide reasons for the LACK of something when the existence of that lack makes it nearly impossible to do outside of simply saying that it lacks those qualities you assert it to have.

If you believe that Rey's motivation/arc is extremely fleshed out and makes sense it's on YOU to explain why you think that is and then at that point it would be on us to elaborate on why we disagree with your position.

To ask us to explain why we think something is lacking outside of the simple statement that the lack exists though is redundant.

It's very easy to identify when a character is lacking.

Of course, but it would simply be a more elaborated version of the same statement.

Ex. Rey has very few/unsatisfying reasons for doing what she does and thus lacks a compelling character arc.

The thing is, you'd simply give a version of the same response and complain that we didn't go into enough detail as to WHY she wasn't compelling. The problem is, you're the one disputing that she IS. Thus the onus is on YOU to prove it, not us.

Just like when you went off on your "Chell is how you're really supposed to write women" skit, it was very easy for people to point out how absurd that was.

From what I recall of that conversation, it was simply a lot of you and others admitting that they hadn't realized many of the cutscenes or unchangeable actions within the game actually existed and lead to only a few possible outcomes that very likely meant certain things about the character. Things which, if true, backed up my stance for why I believed Chell to be a strong female character. Feel free to go back and find quotes from the conversation though if you feel it went differently.

[Fedel]

Just do what i do.

"I like this thing"
"I dont like this thing"
"K"

I strongly approve of this method. There's a reason I don't criticise Huskar in this thread, even when he says things I disagree with, and it's not just because I like him. He doesn't try to frame his personal feelings on a film as fact.

We get it, you like a shitty movie, move on already!

You know, that's not a bad thing, I unironically like Episode III and don't mind Episode I (It's not good, but it's not horrible either), but I still acknowledge that they're pretty bad and have no problem making fun of them while pointing out both the good and bad parts. It's ok to like something that's not good, you don't need to defend TLJ as if it's a beached whale that'll die if it doesn't have praise upon heaped continually.

I'm not the one who started bitching about how bad Rey was.

No, you're just the one that brought up how you:

"Just HAD to watch a movie you knew you would absolutely LOVE and that movie was the LAST JEDI."

How after re-watching said movie it further confirmed your suspicions that everybody that thought Rey was a bad character was DEAD WRONG.

You're purposefully inflammatory and you know it. Don't try to pretend otherwise.

[Genivaria]

If they made Rey's parents to be the best students of Luke Skywalker and that Kylo Ren only said that they were no one because they were no one to him, the question of her parentage would be answered with a glorious answer in Episode 9.

Why is it so important that we know the ins and outs of her lineage? Surely the whole point is that legacy is not the be all and end all.

Because at the end of the day the Jedi are defending magical aristocracy.

[Valrifell]

If they made Rey's parents to be the best students of Luke Skywalker and that Kylo Ren only said that they were no one because they were no one to him, the question of her parentage would be answered with a glorious answer in Episode 9.

The Star Wars universe is bigger than two or three family dynasties. I'm perfectly content with the "she has powers because the Force craves balance" explanation TLJ offers.

[Platypus Bureaucracy]

I strongly approve of this method. There's a reason I don't criticise Huskar in this thread, even when he says things I disagree with, and it's not just because I like him. He doesn't try to frame his personal feelings on a film as fact.

I'm not the one who started bitching about how bad Rey was.

No, you're just the one that brought up how you:

"Just HAD to watch a movie you knew you would absolutely LOVE and that movie was the LAST JEDI."

How after re-watching said movie it further confirmed your suspicions that everybody that thought Rey was a bad character was DEAD WRONG.

You're purposefully inflammatory and you know it. Don't try to pretend otherwise.

Why on Earth are you saying this? We're on a forum; you only need to go back a couple of pages to see how this conversation began, and it's nothing to do with that. Either this is a lie of Trump-esque audacity, or you're just saying things based on vague recollections while making no effort to ensure you know what you're talking about (which, in fact, is the part of the problem with fandoms).

The bolded bears no resemblance to anything I said. I just said I watched TLJ and it was great and also full of lots of cute stuff. I only mentioned Rey as a) one of the cute things in the movie and b) as an example of the clear character work it does, which I contrasted with TCW. The present discussion began after Uinted complained about the sequels, then Valrifell said the ST characters were better than Rogue One's, then everyone piled in with the lazy "No, Rey's terrible" posts, after which I challenged those people to talk about her arc.

Nothing in this was in response to my TLJ post. No one quoted that post. No one, as far as I can see, has even alluded to it.

You may find it inflammatory when someone says they like a thing that you don't like. Tough. It's the Star Wars thread. I'm going to talk about my favourite Star Wars movie sometimes (and I talk about it a hell of a lot less than I would if it were as well-regarded here as, say ESB or ANH).

Was the bit about watching something I knew I'd like baity? Maybe. Certainly, I suspected it might upset people, but only because some people can't stand to see TLJ praised. If I'd said ESB instead, you wouldn't have a complaint. Hell, if I'd said TPM you'd have probably just raised an eyebrow and moved on. Maybe you think no one should ever say anything positive about TLJ because it...I don't know, it triggers you?

To your last post, no, the onus is on the person who makes the claim, even if the claim is negative. If I claim Obi Wan does not undergo character development in Episode II, I need to reference things he says and does to demonstrate that his character does not change.

And, no, the Chell discussion was you taking the tiniest details like "Chell jumps" to claim that a woman who literally never speaks was the pinnacle of quality that writers of female characters should aspire to. The only thing I recall conceding was that Chell being smart and resourceful was a reasonable inference.

[The first Galactic Republic]

Why is it so important that we know the ins and outs of her lineage? Surely the whole point is that legacy is not the be all and end all.

Because at the end of the day the Jedi are defending magical aristocracy.

Maybe that’s why TLJ resets it. The Jedi are finally distanced from the old political orders and can be rebuilt as an order that focuses on understanding the force before anything else.

[Genivaria]

The Jedi younglings should've been taken by the Empire and reorganized into Imperial Knights and Imperial Inquisitors.
Long live the Emperor! Long live the Empire!

[Fedel]

No, you're just the one that brought up how you:

"Just HAD to watch a movie you knew you would absolutely LOVE and that movie was the LAST JEDI."

How after re-watching said movie it further confirmed your suspicions that everybody that thought Rey was a bad character was DEAD WRONG.

You're purposefully inflammatory and you know it. Don't try to pretend otherwise.

Why on Earth are you saying this? We're on a forum; you only need to go back a couple of pages to see how this conversation began, and it's nothing to do with that. Either this is a lie of Trump-esque audacity, or you're just saying things based on vague recollections while making no effort to ensure you know what you're talking about (which, in fact, is the part of the problem with fandoms).

The bolded bears no resemblance to anything I said. I just said I watched TLJ and it was great and also full of lots of cute stuff. I only mentioned Rey as a) one of the cute things in the movie and b) as an example of the clear character work it does, which I contrasted with TCW. The present discussion began after Uinted complained about the sequels, then Valrifell said the ST characters were better than Rogue One's, then everyone piled in with the lazy "No, Rey's terrible" posts, after which I challenged those people to talk about her arc.

Nothing in this was in response to my TLJ post. No one quoted that post. No one, as far as I can see, has even alluded to it.

You may find it inflammatory when someone says they like a thing that you don't like. Tough. It's the Star Wars thread. I'm going to talk about my favourite Star Wars movie sometimes (and I talk about it a hell of a lot less than I would if it were as well-regarded here as, say ESB or ANH).

Was the bit about watching something I knew I'd like baity? Maybe. Certainly, I suspected it might upset people, but only because some people can't stand to see TLJ praised. If I'd said ESB instead, you wouldn't have a complaint. Hell, if I'd said TPM you'd have probably just raised an eyebrow and moved on. Maybe you think no one should ever say anything positive about TLJ because it...I don't know, it triggers you?

To your last post, no, the onus is on the person who makes the claim, even if the claim is negative. If I claim Obi Wan does not undergo character development in Episode II, I need to reference things he says and does to demonstrate that his character does not change.

And, no, the Chell discussion was you taking the tiniest details like "Chell jumps" to claim that a woman who literally never speaks was the pinnacle of quality that writers of female characters should aspire to. The only thing I recall conceding was that Chell being smart and resourceful was a reasonable inference.

Did you really write an essay to me because I paraphrased one of your statements?

The reason I formatted it in the way I did was because not long after making the statement about how you thought Rey was a great character you make this comment:

"I was going to explain to y'all what Rey's arc is and snidely dismiss the idea that any of you know jack shit about this stuff. But I've got a better idea:"

Now you're probably going to say that this was in response to the posts that you deemed "low effort criticisms" ( edit: after skimming your post I see that's EXACTLY what you did ) but I posit that you brought it up in the first place KNOWING the kind of responses you'd get in order to start another row on the subject.

Also, if you truly believe that the onus is on the person making the claim then you yourself are at fault for not having provided evidence for your position. The simple fact was, nobody wished to engage in a dialogue because many of us in the thread have already done so dozens upon dozens of times without results. To do it again would be the equivalent of beating a spot where a horse had died with the horse having long since decayed into the ground.

Seems like you've yet to come to the realization that subtle actions and and responses to events when done well can tell you more about a character in a better way then exposition filled dialogues that don't make any sense. Unfortunately, the majority of people nowadays seem to prefer the latter so we're probably going to be seeing that more and more in future media.

[The first Galactic Republic]

The Jedi younglings should've been taken by the Empire and reorganized into Imperial Knights and Imperial Inquisitors.
Long live the Emperor! Long live the Empire!

Broke: Taking in younglings

Woke: Taking in full grown security guards

[The first Galactic Republic]

Apparently Wookieepedia’s article on Sha’a Gi is one of its most popular right now.

I get the feeling there’s a meme behind this.

[Platypus Bureaucracy]

Why on Earth are you saying this? We're on a forum; you only need to go back a couple of pages to see how this conversation began, and it's nothing to do with that. Either this is a lie of Trump-esque audacity, or you're just saying things based on vague recollections while making no effort to ensure you know what you're talking about (which, in fact, is the part of the problem with fandoms).

The bolded bears no resemblance to anything I said. I just said I watched TLJ and it was great and also full of lots of cute stuff. I only mentioned Rey as a) one of the cute things in the movie and b) as an example of the clear character work it does, which I contrasted with TCW. The present discussion began after Uinted complained about the sequels, then Valrifell said the ST characters were better than Rogue One's, then everyone piled in with the lazy "No, Rey's terrible" posts, after which I challenged those people to talk about her arc.

Nothing in this was in response to my TLJ post. No one quoted that post. No one, as far as I can see, has even alluded to it.

You may find it inflammatory when someone says they like a thing that you don't like. Tough. It's the Star Wars thread. I'm going to talk about my favourite Star Wars movie sometimes (and I talk about it a hell of a lot less than I would if it were as well-regarded here as, say ESB or ANH).

Was the bit about watching something I knew I'd like baity? Maybe. Certainly, I suspected it might upset people, but only because some people can't stand to see TLJ praised. If I'd said ESB instead, you wouldn't have a complaint. Hell, if I'd said TPM you'd have probably just raised an eyebrow and moved on. Maybe you think no one should ever say anything positive about TLJ because it...I don't know, it triggers you?

To your last post, no, the onus is on the person who makes the claim, even if the claim is negative. If I claim Obi Wan does not undergo character development in Episode II, I need to reference things he says and does to demonstrate that his character does not change.

And, no, the Chell discussion was you taking the tiniest details like "Chell jumps" to claim that a woman who literally never speaks was the pinnacle of quality that writers of female characters should aspire to. The only thing I recall conceding was that Chell being smart and resourceful was a reasonable inference.

Did you really write an essay to me because I paraphrased one of your statements?

The reason I formatted it in the way I did was because not long after making the statement about how you thought Rey was a great character you make this comment:

"I was going to explain to y'all what Rey's arc is and snidely dismiss the idea that any of you know jack shit about this stuff. But I've got a better idea:"

Now you're probably going to say that this was in response to the posts that you deemed "low effort criticisms" ( edit: after skimming your post I see that's EXACTLY what you did ) but I posit that you brought it up in the first place KNOWING the kind of responses you'd get in order to start another row on the subject.

You misrepresented the course of events to suggest that I started this. I didn't. I also didn't say Rey was a great character (though obviously I do think she is). I said she was cute, and that TLJ hit its character beats hard. If you don't care to read my posts, why do you keep responding to me? If you don't like me, put me on ignore.

If I'm having to write at length, it's because you're not taking the care to respond to what I'm actually saying, so I'm having to go back and restate stuff I've already said. It's the old issue that it takes ten times as much effort to refute bullshit as to produce it.

[Ameriganastan]

Apparently Wookieepedia’s article on Sha’a Gi is one of its most popular right now.

I get the feeling there’s a meme behind this.

...Who?