Star Wars: The Force Shall Free Us All

[The first Galactic Republic]

The Star Wars community sure is divided right now, but I can't wait for The Mandalorian. It'll really encapsulate what makes the series great.

This is basically going to be the grittiest thing you've ever seen. The main character is a MANdalorian who goes around kneecapping rebel scum while sexing big tiddy girls with his thirteen inch schlong. When he's not being a complete badass, he spends time trolling snowflakes with FACTS and LOGIC and he doesn't do chores because he doesn't care what his mom thinks. Also he says bad words because this is a gritty, mature R-rated series.

Directed by Taika Waititi, with Christopher Nolan added for maximum mindfuckery. Can't wait.

That'd be pretty sweet. How about we get Chuck Norris to play the main character?

With Chuck Norris as a young Snoke.

[Jolthig]

Been getting into the Clone Wars series. Finally.

Now I'm really starting to understand the difference between Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader.

[Pax Nerdvana]

That'd be pretty sweet. How about we get Chuck Norris to play the main character?

With Chuck Norris as a young Snoke.

That could work...

Been getting into the Clone Wars series. Finally.

Now I'm really starting to understand the difference between Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader.

I still enjoy rewatching my favorite episodes of that series. I feel like I've seen most episodes at least twice.

[The Biggles Syndicate]

Been getting into the Clone Wars series. Finally.

Now I'm really starting to understand the difference between Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader.

Welcome aboard. Prepare for a wild ride.

[Fedel]

Putting in an insane AI that's more competent then the one currently running the facility wouldn't make any sense as her motivation imo.

No, it's the actions that she's taking as a result of that stubbornness that shows us the kind of character she is and that helps to more fully flesh out her personality.

I've read the Phasma novel and view it as one of the better written works in Disney canon. I wouldn't say Phasma is given more personality in it though since her entire motivation for doing what she does is simply to gain as much power as possible with her only viewing those around her as tools with which to obtain power or obstacles keeping her from obtaining it. The only personality trait you could really say she has from that is that she's manipulative.

Again, a protagonist can be fleshed out through their actions and interactions with the world around them, not just their dialogue. Or are you saying that mute people irl aren't as complex as people who can speak?

There's probably a ceiling on complexity if we can't inside their head and they have no other way to communicate, yes. Can such people still be characters? Certainly. I'd say Link, for instance, from the Twilight Princess is one. He never speaks, but we get actions and expressions in cutscenes that clearly make him his own person. So he obviously cares about his horse, those village kids, that village girl and, by the end, Midna. Even if the player hates the shit out of all of those characters (although, really, how could you hate Midna?), Link doesn't. He has plenty of empty space for the player to insert themselves, but his personality is not 100% the player's.

The same isn't true of Chell. Chell feels whatever the player feels about Glados and Wheatley (my Chell saved Glados because she thinks Glados is an absolute riot). It might be tempting to say "Chell is smart and resourceful"*, because she solves puzzles. But it's equally possible--probable, even--that Chell is a moron who spent ten minutes flinging herself at the same wall over and over, adamant that it would help when she really, really should have recognised that it wouldn't.

Mute people who have no thoughts aren't complex, because anyone who has no thoughts isn't a character. Chell doesn't emote in any way, she doesn't take actions the player isn't in control of, I don't think she even grunts (Gordon Freeman does that, at least, and he ain't a character either). She's a camera in the shape of an occasionally glimpsable woman. As Galactic said, it's bizarre you thought she was a good example of a female SFF protagonist. Even if Rey were an appalling character, she'd be better by virtue of having a voice and (emoting) face provided by a capable actor.

*Although, even if she were...Rey is that and a good bit more besides, sooo...

I do agree that there's a ceiling on the complexity that a mute character can demonstrate in comparison to one with dialogue. I just don't view it as necessarily harmful overall if their complexity is conveyed by other means. Something I think Valve does with Chell through the things she must do to progress in the game.

That's not entirely accurate considering there are time limits on some of the puzzles that lock you out of completing them or challenges that test your reflexes and mental acuity that if you were to fail would leave you dead as a result. Since Chell survived Aperture and made it out within the continuity of Portal we know she was AT LEAST smart and quick enough to complete the aforementioned challenges without dying ( I.E. she was about as smart as someone who never died a single time whilst playing the Portal games despite experiencing physical and mental pressures that somebody playing the game would not have experienced ).

You're incorrect. You can't move past certain points in the game without carrying out specific actions ( like saving Wheatley or GLaDOS ). These actions are enough for us to infer the logical motivations behind them when comparing them to other set actions Chell has taken and come to conclusions about her character.

Gonna have to disagree with you on that last one.

[Platypus Bureaucracy]

I do agree that there's a ceiling on the complexity that a mute character can demonstrate in comparison to one with dialogue. I just don't view it as necessarily harmful overall if their complexity is conveyed by other means. Something I think Valve does with Chell through the things she must do to progress in the game.

That's not entirely accurate considering there are time limits on some of the puzzles that lock you out of completing them or challenges that test your reflexes and mental acuity that if you were to fail would leave you dead as a result. Since Chell survived Aperture and made it out within the continuity of Portal we know she was AT LEAST smart and quick enough to complete the aforementioned challenges without dying ( I.E. she was about as smart as someone who never died a single time whilst playing the Portal games despite experiencing physical and mental pressures that somebody playing the game would not have experienced ).

You're incorrect. You can't move past certain points in the game without carrying out specific actions ( like saving Wheatley or GLaDOS ). These actions are enough for us to infer the logical motivations behind them when comparing them to other set actions Chell has taken and come to conclusions about her character.

Gonna have to disagree with you on that last one.

All right. That's a fair point. So she's smart and quick. And you think that makes her a great character. Again, Rey is both of those things and she also has identity issues around her parents, a wide-eyed idealism about her heroes, like Luke and the Resistance, a broadly functioning moral compass. Hell, just "likes Finn" or "grins like an idiot when she meets Poe" give us more to talk about than Chell.

This is one of the rare occasions where we can almost quantitatively say that one character is better than another. Not because Rey is a staggeringly well-written character, but because Chell is so bare-bones. I'm genuinely astonished that you're still arguing against this.

Inferring motivations from the fact that the game railroads you just feels...kinda stupid, particularly as Chell is literally a captive. She has no agency, just does what everyone tells her to, and will die or be trapped (and die) if she doesn't. The only thing we can infer is "probably not suicidal".

Now, a total lack of agency isn't necessarily a hindrance to good characterisation, as long as we get to hear plenty from the character. But we don't. We don't know if she's fuming at having to do the things she's told to, or if it's all a grim necessity to her, or if she's laughing inside because she's a psycho who loves solving puzzles and blowing stuff up.

We don't even know how she got to Aperture. If it's a situation she chose to be in, the game doesn't bother to tell us. Gordon Freeman probably chose to work at Black Mesa, so even if he has no agency until the beginning of Episode 2 (at which point he could theoretically try to walk away from the conflict) we can make a couple of shaky inferences about his character.

Please tell me you picked Chell at random. She can't possibly be the best female protagonist you can think of. If she is, that's just...really, really sad.

[Pasong Tirad]

Also, again, we're comparing video games with films.

[Fedel]

Also, again, we're comparing video games with films.

That's really not relevant. There are video games with better stories then most films tbh.

[Fedel]

I do agree that there's a ceiling on the complexity that a mute character can demonstrate in comparison to one with dialogue. I just don't view it as necessarily harmful overall if their complexity is conveyed by other means. Something I think Valve does with Chell through the things she must do to progress in the game.

That's not entirely accurate considering there are time limits on some of the puzzles that lock you out of completing them or challenges that test your reflexes and mental acuity that if you were to fail would leave you dead as a result. Since Chell survived Aperture and made it out within the continuity of Portal we know she was AT LEAST smart and quick enough to complete the aforementioned challenges without dying ( I.E. she was about as smart as someone who never died a single time whilst playing the Portal games despite experiencing physical and mental pressures that somebody playing the game would not have experienced ).

You're incorrect. You can't move past certain points in the game without carrying out specific actions ( like saving Wheatley or GLaDOS ). These actions are enough for us to infer the logical motivations behind them when comparing them to other set actions Chell has taken and come to conclusions about her character.

Gonna have to disagree with you on that last one.

All right. That's a fair point. So she's smart and quick. And you think that makes her a great character. Again, Rey is both of those things and she also has identity issues around her parents, a wide-eyed idealism about her heroes, like Luke and the Resistance, a broadly functioning moral compass. Hell, just "likes Finn" or "grins like an idiot when she meets Poe" give us more to talk about than Chell.

This is one of the rare occasions where we can almost quantitatively say that one character is better than another. Not because Rey is a staggeringly well-written character, but because Chell is so bare-bones. I'm genuinely astonished that you're still arguing against this. Inferring motivations from the fact that the game railroads you just feels...kinda stupid, particularly as Chell is literally a captive. She has no agency, just does what everyone tells her to, and will die or be trapped (and die) if she doesn't. The only thing we can infer is "probably not suicidal". Now, a total lack of agency isn't necessarily a hindrance to good characterisation, as long as we get to hear plenty from the character. But we don't. We don't know if she's fuming at having to do the things she's told to, or if it's all a grim necessity to her, or if she's laughing inside because she's a psycho who loves solving puzzles and blowing stuff up. We don't even know how she got to Aperture. If it's a situation she chose to be in, the game doesn't bother to tell us. Gordon Freeman probably chose to work at Black Mesa, so even if he has no agency until the beginning of Episode 2 (at which point he could theoretically try to walk away from the conflict) we can make a couple of shaky inferences about his character.

Please tell me you picked Chell at random. She can't possibly be the best female protagonist you can think of. If she is, that's just...really, really sad.

No... I never said Chell being smart and quick makes her a great character. I was simply correcting your presumption that such traits couldn't be applied to her on the basis that she's controlled by the player.

If she can't move on in the game before carrying out a specific action that means that action is canon to continuity meaning she did it for SOME reason. Perhaps I am attributing traits and characteristics to her that aren't necessarily present though.

She's one of my personal favorites for what I suppose are my beliefs about the motivations behind her actions, but the best written female character I've seen would probably be Asuka from NGE or perhaps the Major from Ghost in the Shell. A personal favorite of mine would be Breq from the Imperial Radch trilogy. Similar to GLaDOS she's a millenia old AI.

[Pasong Tirad]

Also, again, we're comparing video games with films.

That's really not relevant. There are video games with better stories then most films tbh.

Except it really is. In much the same way comparing the story of a film and a TV series is also like comparing apples and... idk peaches. A little similar? Yes, of course, all stories tend to follow similar structures and rules that have been set down since Aristotle's Ars Poetica - but entirely different. In this case, video games are a lot more different because story often comes as subservient to the overall design of the game, and because this entails considering whether or not the design of the game has to take into account the agency of the player. The story of Detroit: Become Human, for example, is molded in such a way that players are allowed to have different choices as to how their stories turn out - player choices can sometimes override logic and can act as a subversion to the overall narrative, for instance. Even linear games like The Last of Us have to take these things into consideration. What many of us may call a "better story than most films" (which to be clear I'm not saying TLOU doesn't have a nice story) can sometimes really just be game design keeping the narrative constrained in a small simplistic nature, which deprives the player of actual agency in the matter - but that is still something that video games have to consider when creating their narrative, making whether or not the player has agency an actual point of contention when discussing game designs in depth in such a way that films and TV never have to consider. In this instance it'd make more sense to discuss video games with theater because of the possibility of agency - the question of the audience/spectator having agency being integral in figuring out what kind of play you're making (even the consideration of whether or not to call them an audience or a spectator being a point of contention - but I'm not here to talk about theater).

And really, there are so so so many other films that you can use to compare with Rey and it would make a lot more sense because you don't have to take into account the fact that the character is controlled by a player. Ripley, Imperator Furiosa, Hermione Granger, the Uhura girl in Star Trek (not a big fan, I'm not entirely sure if I botched that), Katniss Everdeen, Sarah Connor. I could go on but like it has been said great science fiction hasn't exactly been choosing female leads all the time.

[Myrensis]

Been getting into the Clone Wars series. Finally.

Now I'm really starting to understand the difference between Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader.

Clone Wars is great for that. Movie Anakin was a whiny twat who really just seemed like he was looking for any excuse to go full Dark Side. Clone Wars is where we got to see that he did actually have some, you know, redeeming qualities and complexity.

Basically Clone Wars is where we got to see the Anakin the movies kept telling us about.

[Bralia]

I think I had a little too much fun with this new poll.

[Isilanka]

I think I had a little too much fun with this new poll.

Just a liiitle.
I was about to choose the Sith (because casual hedonism sounds one hell of a lot of fun) but then chose the Chiss.
I mean I usually hate the noble-and-strict type, but they're blue. I've got a weakness for blue alien people since Mass Effect.

[The Huskar Social Union]

I think I had a little too much fun with this new poll.

Just a liiitle.
I was about to choose the Sith (because casual hedonism sounds one hell of a lot of fun) but then chose the Chiss.
I mean I usually hate the noble-and-strict type, but they're blue. I've got a weakness for blue alien people since Mass Effect.

Dont know why but blue women with glowing red eyes get me hot and bothered

I blame old republic for it now that i think about it.

[Platypus Bureaucracy]

All right. That's a fair point. So she's smart and quick. And you think that makes her a great character. Again, Rey is both of those things and she also has identity issues around her parents, a wide-eyed idealism about her heroes, like Luke and the Resistance, a broadly functioning moral compass. Hell, just "likes Finn" or "grins like an idiot when she meets Poe" give us more to talk about than Chell.

This is one of the rare occasions where we can almost quantitatively say that one character is better than another. Not because Rey is a staggeringly well-written character, but because Chell is so bare-bones. I'm genuinely astonished that you're still arguing against this. Inferring motivations from the fact that the game railroads you just feels...kinda stupid, particularly as Chell is literally a captive. She has no agency, just does what everyone tells her to, and will die or be trapped (and die) if she doesn't. The only thing we can infer is "probably not suicidal". Now, a total lack of agency isn't necessarily a hindrance to good characterisation, as long as we get to hear plenty from the character. But we don't. We don't know if she's fuming at having to do the things she's told to, or if it's all a grim necessity to her, or if she's laughing inside because she's a psycho who loves solving puzzles and blowing stuff up. We don't even know how she got to Aperture. If it's a situation she chose to be in, the game doesn't bother to tell us. Gordon Freeman probably chose to work at Black Mesa, so even if he has no agency until the beginning of Episode 2 (at which point he could theoretically try to walk away from the conflict) we can make a couple of shaky inferences about his character.

Please tell me you picked Chell at random. She can't possibly be the best female protagonist you can think of. If she is, that's just...really, really sad.

No... I never said Chell being smart and quick makes her a great character. I was simply correcting your presumption that such traits couldn't be applied to her on the basis that she's controlled by the player.

If she can't move on in the game before carrying out a specific action that means that action is canon to continuity meaning she did it for SOME reason. Perhaps I am attributing traits and characteristics to her that aren't necessarily present though.

There you go, then. She's a vacuum into which you can pour your ideal character. You don't like Chell; you like a character you've written in your head. Which is fine, I guess. It's perfectly normal to have a special affection for one's own creations; I certainly like my Shepard from ME more than anyone else's Shepard. But I think suggesting that your own fanfic/headcanon represents the level of quality writers should aspire to when writing women (or anyone) is...a tad narcissistic.

[Pasong Tirad]

I bet I'd enjoy board game night with New Republic peeps.

[Platypus Bureaucracy]

Not the sort to party. I'll start a book club with the Jedi.

[The Huskar Social Union]

I bet I'd enjoy board game night with New Republic peeps.

"What up my fellow new republicans!"
*Hosnian Prime explodes*
"Nevermind!"

[The Batavia]

@Poll

Where is the Clone Trooper option? Those guys seem pretty chill.

[The Biggles Syndicate]

Tfw the Republic Army is nowhere to be seen on the poll

[Pax Nerdvana]

@Poll

Where is the Clone Trooper option? Those guys seem pretty chill.

Where is the Mandalorian option?

[Ism]

@Poll

Where is the Clone Trooper option? Those guys seem pretty chill.

Where is the Mandalorian Grey Jedi Bounty Hunter option?

FTFY

Also, y’all realize a bunch of the New Republic politicians were Imperialist sympathizers and/or subverted by the First Order right?

[The Huskar Social Union]

Where is the Mandalorian Grey Jedi Bounty Hunter option?

FTFY

Also, y’all realize a bunch of the New Republic politicians were Imperialist sympathizers and/or subverted by the First Order right?

shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh we dont, we dont talk about that.

[Ism]

FTFY

Also, y’all realize a bunch of the New Republic politicians were Imperialist sympathizers and/or subverted by the First Order right?

shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh we dont, we dont talk about that.

Et tu Huskar?

[The Huskar Social Union]

shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh we dont, we dont talk about that.

Et tu Huskar?

There are no Star Destroyers in Sector 47