Star Wars: The Force Shall Free Us All

[Pythaga]

I see you have gone into the archives. What have you found?

Not too much. Mostly novels from the 90’s. I don’t know if those are worth anything.

But there’s a few “Collector’s Edition” magazines from when ESB and ROTJ came out. I’ll have to look into those.

You won’t get nearly anything for the novels, I can buy them paperback for $2.50 a piece at my local used bookstore. If they’re hardcover you could get a little more. They’d only really be valuable if they were signed.

As for the magazines, those could end up being worth something, just do your research on them.

[Northern Davincia]

It is a current trend to put a female protagonist in major franchises, and Abrams makes no secret of this, who emphasized Rey's absurd power level.
This is in addition to a pink-haired woman putting a man in his place, so to speak, or the anti-capitalist undertones of Canto Bight.

When a man has absurd power levels, it’s bad writing. When a woman does, it’s politics.

Women can’t be protagonists of major franchises? It’s s it 50\50 somehow?

Don’t female bosses berate male employees in the real world?

Women can be protagonists of major franchises, but I don't believe it should be forced, as Abrams clearly went in with the goal of a female protagonist first and a good character second. Rude female bosses aren't lionized as heroes by the end for keeping secrets and getting most of a fleet destroyed, only to be sacrificed on the altar of cool effects.

Men with absurd power levels, serving the interest of the creator's politics, is standard in propaganda. It is nothing new.

[Kassaran]

When a man has absurd power levels, it’s bad writing. When a woman does, it’s politics.

When a man has absurd power levels and no character, it's bad writing. When a woman has absurd power levels and no character, it's bad writing. Rey was the product of bad writing and what made the results of such a poorly written character and story worse was the sudden crowing from the stands of "Liberté, égalité, fraternité!" from those who thought they saw some sort of light at the end of a well-lit tunnel.

Women can’t be protagonists of major franchises? It’s s it 50\50 somehow?

I got nothing here, see no reason to argue this as sex/gender/what-have-you should never be what makes for a good protagonist.

Don’t female bosses berate male employees in the real world?

They do, but they also tend to explain why they're doing what they're doing. A good leader doesn't just hide information regardless of 'suspicions'. You give people an idea that there's a light at the end of the tunnel, not sacrifice your fleet ship-by-ship in some ominous countdown to impending doom. I would have liked Poe's character just as much had he been a female, and I'd of found their actions just as reasonable and expected.

For me, the slaps in the face came from overall poor effort on the part of RJ to make a decent Star Wars movie and instead to make an RJ movie. RJ went out of his way to take many beloved tropes and mechanics of the Star Wars franchise and completely disregard them for his own telling of a story set in the Star Wars universe. For me, it permanently put me off from dealing with any of RJ's material in the future. I liked the idea he wanted in making Rey's lineage be something muddled and unspecific to break the Skywalker chain, but his execution and vision was so ridiculously poor that it lost any appeal to me.

[Vassenor]

When a man has absurd power levels, it’s bad writing. When a woman does, it’s politics.

When a man has absurd power levels and no character, it's bad writing. When a woman has absurd power levels and no character, it's bad writing. Rey was the product of bad writing and what made the results of such a poorly written character and story worse was the sudden crowing from the stands of "Liberté, égalité, fraternité!" from those who thought they saw some sort of light at the end of a well-lit tunnel.

Women can’t be protagonists of major franchises? It’s s it 50\50 somehow?

I got nothing here, see no reason to argue this as sex/gender/what-have-you should never be what makes for a good protagonist.

Don’t female bosses berate male employees in the real world?

They do, but they also tend to explain why they're doing what they're doing. A good leader doesn't just hide information regardless of 'suspicions'. You give people an idea that there's a light at the end of the tunnel, not sacrifice your fleet ship-by-ship in some ominous countdown to impending doom. I would have liked Poe's character just as much had he been a female, and I'd of found their actions just as reasonable and expected.

For me, the slaps in the face came from overall poor effort on the part of RJ to make a decent Star Wars movie and instead to make an RJ movie. RJ went out of his way to take many beloved tropes and mechanics of the Star Wars franchise and completely disregard them for his own telling of a story set in the Star Wars universe. For me, it permanently put me off from dealing with any of RJ's material in the future. I liked the idea he wanted in making Rey's lineage be something muddled and unspecific to break the Skywalker chain, but his execution and vision was so ridiculously poor that it lost any appeal to me.

So it's bad leadership to restrict information to a need-to-know basis when you may have a spy on board?

[Ism]

When a man has absurd power levels and no character, it's bad writing. When a woman has absurd power levels and no character, it's bad writing. Rey was the product of bad writing and what made the results of such a poorly written character and story worse was the sudden crowing from the stands of "Liberté, égalité, fraternité!" from those who thought they saw some sort of light at the end of a well-lit tunnel.


I got nothing here, see no reason to argue this as sex/gender/what-have-you should never be what makes for a good protagonist.


They do, but they also tend to explain why they're doing what they're doing. A good leader doesn't just hide information regardless of 'suspicions'. You give people an idea that there's a light at the end of the tunnel, not sacrifice your fleet ship-by-ship in some ominous countdown to impending doom. I would have liked Poe's character just as much had he been a female, and I'd of found their actions just as reasonable and expected.

For me, the slaps in the face came from overall poor effort on the part of RJ to make a decent Star Wars movie and instead to make an RJ movie. RJ went out of his way to take many beloved tropes and mechanics of the Star Wars franchise and completely disregard them for his own telling of a story set in the Star Wars universe. For me, it permanently put me off from dealing with any of RJ's material in the future. I liked the idea he wanted in making Rey's lineage be something muddled and unspecific to break the Skywalker chain, but his execution and vision was so ridiculously poor that it lost any appeal to me.

So it's bad leadership to restrict information to a need-to-know basis when you may have a spy on board?

There are two problems with this. The first, there is never any mention of a spy, it's not a point raised in the film, only by its defenders. Worse, even if there was a spy, they would just end up on the transports and at the secret base, meaning the plan would fail regardless, as they could just alert the First Order at any time after leaving the Raddus what was happening.

The second, is the way the information was restricted was not well thought out. Holdo does not tell Poe the plan, though this can be justified for a variety of reasons, but, more than this, she refuses to confirm that she has a plan at all, and when questioned on it, belittles Poe, and later offers an empty platitude in response. This leads to Poe coming up with his own plan, which even without the giant hiccup that is DJ, was a bad plan. But, if your options are a bad plan and no plan, and you have a ticking clock which will kill you, your allies, and possibly end your cause, bad plans can look pretty good. This is why the plan Holdo comes up with is pursued, even though it's shit too.

This very much is bad leadership, because Holdo is failing to lead, specifically, she is not handling a subordinate well, and is failing to properly manage the morale of the fleet. After all, if morale was handled well, there's wouldn't have been at least 4 (including Finn's) attempts to jump ship, a half-cocked plan thrown together by Poe, Rose and Finn or a mutiny by Poe and his compatriots. All of that points to a serious morale problem, which is not indicative of good leadership. The extreme strain of the situation certainly plays a role in this, but it is apparent that Holdo did not handle her tenure well.

[Jedi Council]

So it's bad leadership to restrict information to a need-to-know basis when you may have a spy on board?

There are two problems with this. The first, there is never any mention of a spy, it's not a point raised in the film, only by its defenders. Worse, even if there was a spy, they would just end up on the transports and at the secret base, meaning the plan would fail regardless, as they could just alert the First Order at any time after leaving the Raddus what was happening.

The second, is the way the information was restricted was not well thought out. Holdo does not tell Poe the plan, though this can be justified for a variety of reasons, but, more than this, she refuses to confirm that she has a plan at all, and when questioned on it, belittles Poe, and later offers an empty platitude in response. This leads to Poe coming up with his own plan, which even without the giant hiccup that is DJ, was a bad plan. But, if your options are a bad plan and no plan, and you have a ticking clock which will kill you, your allies, and possibly end your cause, bad plans can look pretty good. This is why the plan Holdo comes up with is pursued, even though it's shit too.

This very much is bad leadership, because Holdo is failing to lead, specifically, she is not handling a subordinate well, and is failing to properly manage the morale of the fleet. After all, if morale was handled well, there's wouldn't have been at least 4 (including Finn's) attempts to jump ship, a half-cocked plan thrown together by Poe, Rose and Finn or a mutiny by Poe and his compatriots. All of that points to a serious morale problem, which is not indicative of good leadership. The extreme strain of the situation certainly plays a role in this, but it is apparent that Holdo did not handle her tenure well.

I never understood the Holdo arc. It just seemed so unnecessary and pointless to bring in this new character to command the Resistance, even if it was Laura Dern. Killing off Ackbar at the same time was just a slap in the face.

[Vassenor]

There are two problems with this. The first, there is never any mention of a spy, it's not a point raised in the film, only by its defenders. Worse, even if there was a spy, they would just end up on the transports and at the secret base, meaning the plan would fail regardless, as they could just alert the First Order at any time after leaving the Raddus what was happening.

The second, is the way the information was restricted was not well thought out. Holdo does not tell Poe the plan, though this can be justified for a variety of reasons, but, more than this, she refuses to confirm that she has a plan at all, and when questioned on it, belittles Poe, and later offers an empty platitude in response. This leads to Poe coming up with his own plan, which even without the giant hiccup that is DJ, was a bad plan. But, if your options are a bad plan and no plan, and you have a ticking clock which will kill you, your allies, and possibly end your cause, bad plans can look pretty good. This is why the plan Holdo comes up with is pursued, even though it's shit too.

This very much is bad leadership, because Holdo is failing to lead, specifically, she is not handling a subordinate well, and is failing to properly manage the morale of the fleet. After all, if morale was handled well, there's wouldn't have been at least 4 (including Finn's) attempts to jump ship, a half-cocked plan thrown together by Poe, Rose and Finn or a mutiny by Poe and his compatriots. All of that points to a serious morale problem, which is not indicative of good leadership. The extreme strain of the situation certainly plays a role in this, but it is apparent that Holdo did not handle her tenure well.

I never understood the Holdo arc. It just seemed so unnecessary and pointless to bring in this new character to command the Resistance, even if it was Laura Dern. Killing off Ackbar at the same time was just a slap in the face.

So how would you have written around his VA being dead?

[Jedi Council]

I never understood the Holdo arc. It just seemed so unnecessary and pointless to bring in this new character to command the Resistance, even if it was Laura Dern. Killing off Ackbar at the same time was just a slap in the face.

So how would you have written around his VA being dead?

I probably would not have included him in the sequels at all rather than cheaply toss him out a window alongside a handful of nobodies. Just have him die in the three decade period between RoTJ and TLJ.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

So how would you have written around his VA being dead?

I probably would not have included him in the sequels at all rather than cheaply toss him out a window alongside a handful of nobodies. Just have him die in the three decade period between RoTJ and TLJ.

See, Ackbar is the perfect example of why the rage about Ryan Johnson has a lot to do with fan hate, and not with the story itself.

Ackbar was not an interesting character. He was not an important character. He is a background character with a few lines. Like, four lines. That's it. He was made bigger because of him becoming a meme. That's it. But he is not a main character in Star Wars, and he should not be treated like one. Yeah, he died with a bunch of nobodies. That's the thing with war, not all heroes are going to die heroic deaths. Some are on the bridge when it explodes, and that's fine.

Also, I don't see why it is pointless to bring in a new character. These are three new films, I don't see why the new films need to kill off all old characters who could possibly be alive before introducing its own characters. Because if you do that, the new trilogy will always stand in the shadows of the OT, and it will never rise to its own. I think TLJ and RoS stood too much in the shadow, and TLJ tried to do its own, unique thing, and I think it is the better for it. I have little patience for fans who think new movies only serve to give more filling for OT Wookiepadia pages.

The opposite side of this is RoS, where Abrams just tossed in every meme, every fan favourite, because he was not looking to create a fulfilling story, he was looking for 100% nostalgia.

When a man has absurd power levels, it’s bad writing. When a woman does, it’s politics.

When a man has absurd power levels and no character, it's bad writing. When a woman has absurd power levels and no character, it's bad writing. Rey was the product of bad writing and what made the results of such a poorly written character and story worse was the sudden crowing from the stands of "Liberté, égalité, fraternité!" from those who thought they saw some sort of light at the end of a well-lit tunnel.

Women can’t be protagonists of major franchises? It’s s it 50\50 somehow?

I got nothing here, see no reason to argue this as sex/gender/what-have-you should never be what makes for a good protagonist.

Don’t female bosses berate male employees in the real world?

They do, but they also tend to explain why they're doing what they're doing. A good leader doesn't just hide information regardless of 'suspicions'. You give people an idea that there's a light at the end of the tunnel, not sacrifice your fleet ship-by-ship in some ominous countdown to impending doom. I would have liked Poe's character just as much had he been a female, and I'd of found their actions just as reasonable and expected.

For me, the slaps in the face came from overall poor effort on the part of RJ to make a decent Star Wars movie and instead to make an RJ movie. RJ went out of his way to take many beloved tropes and mechanics of the Star Wars franchise and completely disregard them for his own telling of a story set in the Star Wars universe. For me, it permanently put me off from dealing with any of RJ's material in the future. I liked the idea he wanted in making Rey's lineage be something muddled and unspecific to break the Skywalker chain, but his execution and vision was so ridiculously poor that it lost any appeal to me.

Okay, explain to me what tropes and mechanics of the Star Wars franchise he took out.

His execution of Rey was great. You don't have to be from a great lineage to matter. See, that's the thing: some gans want to see direct connections between everything in the OT and everything in the ST. But there doesn't have to be. The ST was made into a poor post credits scene by RoS. It could have been so much more, but every time Ryan Johnson made something that was not directly tied to the OT people bashed him for it.

When a man has absurd power levels, it’s bad writing. When a woman does, it’s politics.

Women can’t be protagonists of major franchises? It’s s it 50\50 somehow?

Don’t female bosses berate male employees in the real world?

Women can be protagonists of major franchises, but I don't believe it should be forced, as Abrams clearly went in with the goal of a female protagonist first and a good character second. Rude female bosses aren't lionized as heroes by the end for keeping secrets and getting most of a fleet destroyed, only to be sacrificed on the altar of cool effects.

Men with absurd power levels, serving the interest of the creator's politics, is standard in propaganda. It is nothing new.

What do you mean, "forced"? I have come across this word, but no-one has explained to me what a "forced female character" is supposed to be. Why does a female character need to justify her existence in a franchise? Some people are just women.

In what world does a superior officer have to explain her orders to a recently-demoted soldier? See, this is the point of the story: Poe must learn to trust those he is fighting with. He only trusts himself to make the right decisions, to the point of ignoring a direct order from Leia even though she did explain her reasoning. That's the point: Poe needed to learn to trust others. And what did he do in the story? He made up his own plan, a plan that got Finn and Rose captured, which in the end betrayed the position of the fleet.

Holdo did not kill the fleet. Poe did, because of his lack of trust, and that's the lesson he learnt in the end. The story perfectly serves to support his arc.

That's another general criticism I have of internet movie criticism: realism should serve a purpose, and that purpose is the narrative. In the choice between a good narrative and realism, you should always go for narrative 100% of the time.

[Ameriganastan]

So how would you have written around his VA being dead?

...Get a new one? I mean it's just the voice over guy.

[New haven america]

I probably would not have included him in the sequels at all rather than cheaply toss him out a window alongside a handful of nobodies. Just have him die in the three decade period between RoTJ and TLJ.

See, Ackbar is the perfect example of why the rage about Ryan Johnson has a lot to do with fan hate, and not with the story itself.

1. Ackbar was not an interesting character. He was not an important character. He is a background character with a few lines. Like, four lines. That's it. He was made bigger because of him becoming a meme. That's it. But he is not a main character in Star Wars, and he should not be treated like one. Yeah, he died with a bunch of nobodies. That's the thing with war, not all heroes are going to die heroic deaths. Some are on the bridge when it explodes, and that's fine.

2. Also, I don't see why it is pointless to bring in a new character. 3. These are three new films, I don't see why the new films need to kill off all old characters who could possibly be alive before introducing its own characters. Because if you do that, the new trilogy will always stand in the shadows of the OT, and it will never rise to its own. I think TLJ and RoS stood too much in the shadow, 4. and TLJ tried to do its own, unique thing, and I think it is the better for it. I have little patience for fans who think new movies only serve to give more filling for OT Wookiepadia pages.

5. The opposite side of this is RoS, where Abrams just tossed in every meme, every fan favourite, because he was not looking to create a fulfilling story, he was looking for 100% nostalgia.

When a man has absurd power levels and no character, it's bad writing. When a woman has absurd power levels and no character, it's bad writing. Rey was the product of bad writing and what made the results of such a poorly written character and story worse was the sudden crowing from the stands of "Liberté, égalité, fraternité!" from those who thought they saw some sort of light at the end of a well-lit tunnel.


I got nothing here, see no reason to argue this as sex/gender/what-have-you should never be what makes for a good protagonist.


They do, but they also tend to explain why they're doing what they're doing. A good leader doesn't just hide information regardless of 'suspicions'. You give people an idea that there's a light at the end of the tunnel, not sacrifice your fleet ship-by-ship in some ominous countdown to impending doom. I would have liked Poe's character just as much had he been a female, and I'd of found their actions just as reasonable and expected.

For me, the slaps in the face came from overall poor effort on the part of RJ to make a decent Star Wars movie and instead to make an RJ movie. RJ went out of his way to take many beloved tropes and mechanics of the Star Wars franchise and completely disregard them for his own telling of a story set in the Star Wars universe. For me, it permanently put me off from dealing with any of RJ's material in the future. I liked the idea he wanted in making Rey's lineage be something muddled and unspecific to break the Skywalker chain, but his execution and vision was so ridiculously poor that it lost any appeal to me.

Okay, explain to me what tropes and mechanics of the Star Wars franchise he took out.

His execution of Rey was great. You don't have to be from a great lineage to matter. See, that's the thing: some gans want to see direct connections between everything in the OT and everything in the ST. But there doesn't have to be. The ST was made into a poor post credits scene by RoS. It could have been so much more, but every time Ryan Johnson made something that was not directly tied to the OT people bashed him for it.

Women can be protagonists of major franchises, but I don't believe it should be forced, as Abrams clearly went in with the goal of a female protagonist first and a good character second. Rude female bosses aren't lionized as heroes by the end for keeping secrets and getting most of a fleet destroyed, only to be sacrificed on the altar of cool effects.

Men with absurd power levels, serving the interest of the creator's politics, is standard in propaganda. It is nothing new.

What do you mean, "forced"? I have come across this word, but no-one has explained to me what a "forced female character" is supposed to be. Why does a female character need to justify her existence in a franchise? Some people are just women.

In what world does a superior officer have to explain her orders to a recently-demoted soldier? See, this is the point of the story: Poe must learn to trust those he is fighting with. He only trusts himself to make the right decisions, to the point of ignoring a direct order from Leia even though she did explain her reasoning. That's the point: Poe needed to learn to trust others. And what did he do in the story? He made up his own plan, a plan that got Finn and Rose captured, which in the end betrayed the position of the fleet.

Holdo did not kill the fleet. Poe did, because of his lack of trust, and that's the lesson he learnt in the end. The story perfectly serves to support his arc.

That's another general criticism I have of internet movie criticism: realism should serve a purpose, and that purpose is the narrative. In the choice between a good narrative and realism, you should always go for narrative 100% of the time.

1. And throughout the entirety of Sam Raimi's Spider-Man JK Simmons' JJJ only had about 15-20 minutes of screen time, and yet they still brought him back into the MCU because everyone loved him.

Screen time isn't always what matters, what matters is how much impact the character had on the audience. (Why do you think people love TR-8R but couldn't give a shit about Phasma?)

2. Are you actually going to do something new or interesting with the character? No? Then there's no reason to have them. Holdo wasn't interesting, he was boring and the only reason people remember her is because of her stupid hair and the fact that she killed most of The Resistance.

3. Then why'd they do it?

4. Hey, there's this interesting game, it's called Knights of the Old Republic II, and it did everything TLJ tried to do, and actually did it well. Maybe Johnson should've taken notes (If he actually care about SW that much, which I don't think he does).

5. No, that was because Rian Johnson ended and killed all plot point and threads from TFA in TLJ, so JJ had to scramble to create a new storyline in order to make up for the fact that Rian ended the trilogy on the 2nd movie.

[Fedel]

I probably would not have included him in the sequels at all rather than cheaply toss him out a window alongside a handful of nobodies. Just have him die in the three decade period between RoTJ and TLJ.

See, Ackbar is the perfect example of why the rage about Ryan Johnson has a lot to do with fan hate, and not with the story itself.

Ackbar was not an interesting character. He was not an important character. He is a background character with a few lines. Like, four lines. That's it. He was made bigger because of him becoming a meme. That's it. But he is not a main character in Star Wars, and he should not be treated like one.

Ackbar was expanded on greatly in the EU and is a beloved character by many fans. You say that he only has 4 lines but the same can be said about Boba Fett, the difference is, nobody would argue that he's an unimportant character to the SW mythos.

[Jedi Council]

See, Ackbar is the perfect example of why the rage about Ryan Johnson has a lot to do with fan hate, and not with the story itself.

Ackbar was not an interesting character. He was not an important character. He is a background character with a few lines. Like, four lines. That's it. He was made bigger because of him becoming a meme. That's it. But he is not a main character in Star Wars, and he should not be treated like one.

Ackbar was expanded on greatly in the EU and is a beloved character by many fans. You say that he only has 4 lines but the same can be said about Boba Fett, the difference is, nobody would argue that he's an unimportant character to the SW mythos.

That's my issue as well. He may not have had a whole lot of screen time, but he was obviously a beloved character. And of course, not every beloved character needs to be treated with kid gloves, but there should also be a recognition that tossing him out a window and not mentioning it further, especially given the fans attachment, is bad film making.

I am someone who actually thinks TLJ was the best sequel trilogy movie, I understand that a vast amount of the hate that film gets is unwarranted, but I dont think this is such a case.

[Jedi Council]

I probably would not have included him in the sequels at all rather than cheaply toss him out a window alongside a handful of nobodies. Just have him die in the three decade period between RoTJ and TLJ.

Also, I don't see why it is pointless to bring in a new character. These are three new films, I don't see why the new films need to kill off all old characters who could possibly be alive before introducing its own characters. Because if you do that, the new trilogy will always stand in the shadows of the OT, and it will never rise to its own. I think TLJ and RoS stood too much in the shadow, and TLJ tried to do its own, unique thing, and I think it is the better for it. I have little patience for fans who think new movies only serve to give more filling for OT Wookiepadia pages.

The opposite side of this is RoS, where Abrams just tossed in every meme, every fan favourite, because he was not looking to create a fulfilling story, he was looking for 100% nostalgia.

I think we can all agree RoS was just a mess. It was by far the worst part of the sequel trilogy.

While there are a number of things I think TLJ did right, there is alot it did wrong. Rian Johnsons overall idea, to make Star Wars new and different was a good one, and I have always said that some of the concepts in that movie (Rey being a no one, The Force being used by anyone regardless of parentage) should have been expanded on.

But taking Holdo as an example, I think there was alot of new stuff that was also just there for the sake of being different. Holdo was a character we have seen a hundred times, the general who seems like an ass but in the end has a plan. They even has the "sacrifice for the guys I was an asshole to" cliche. She was a new character, but an old archetype, an archetype that existed in many characters that were part of the Resistance/Rebellion. This new-ness made the character seem unimportant, especially given the fact that she does not appear in the next film, she seemed to be made to be thrown away.

While he scene with the Raddus jumping into the Supremacy is one of my favourite moments from TLJ, imagine how much more emotional, or at least meaningful and interesting, it would have been if it had been a character most fans liked and knew, doing the piloting. If it had been Ackbar, for example, it would have been much more meaningful. Hell, they could have then had Holdo survive, and built her up into more than a two-dimensional character, and expanded on her relationship with Leia and Poe.

In short, I do not have anything against new characters, provided they are actually useful, well written, and expand the story. As it was, Holdo appeared to exist just to piss off Poe and show he was not ready for leadership.

[Idzequitch]

Also, I don't see why it is pointless to bring in a new character. These are three new films, I don't see why the new films need to kill off all old characters who could possibly be alive before introducing its own characters. Because if you do that, the new trilogy will always stand in the shadows of the OT, and it will never rise to its own. I think TLJ and RoS stood too much in the shadow, and TLJ tried to do its own, unique thing, and I think it is the better for it. I have little patience for fans who think new movies only serve to give more filling for OT Wookiepadia pages.

The opposite side of this is RoS, where Abrams just tossed in every meme, every fan favourite, because he was not looking to create a fulfilling story, he was looking for 100% nostalgia.

I think we can all agree RoS was just a mess. It was by far the worst part of the sequel trilogy.

While there are a number of things I think TLJ did right, there is alot it did wrong. Rian Johnsons overall idea, to make Star Wars new and different was a good one, and I have always said that some of the concepts in that movie (Rey being a no one, The Force being used by anyone regardless of parentage) should have been expanded on.

But taking Holdo as an example, I think there was alot of new stuff that was also just there for the sake of being different. Holdo was a character we have seen a hundred times, the general who seems like an ass but in the end has a plan. They even has the "sacrifice for the guys I was an asshole to" cliche. She was a new character, but an old archetype, an archetype that existed in many characters that were part of the Resistance/Rebellion. This new-ness made the character seem unimportant, especially given the fact that she does not appear in the next film, she seemed to be made to be thrown away.

While he scene with the Raddus jumping into the Supremacy is one of my favourite moments from TLJ, imagine how much more emotional, or at least meaningful and interesting, it would have been if it had been a character most fans liked and knew, doing the piloting. If it had been Ackbar, for example, it would have been much more meaningful. Hell, they could have then had Holdo survive, and built her up into more than a two-dimensional character, and expanded on her relationship with Leia and Poe.

In short, I do not have anything against new characters, provided they are actually useful, well written, and expand the story. As it was, Holdo appeared to exist just to piss off Poe and show he was not ready for leadership.

While RoS was indeed a mess, it was the best ST movie, if only because it finally succeeded in making me give a crap about any of the characters. TFA was a meh introduction to the new characters. TLJ left me disliking them. RoS actually moved the characters forward, even if the storyline was a dumpster fire.

[Jedi Council]

I think we can all agree RoS was just a mess. It was by far the worst part of the sequel trilogy.

While there are a number of things I think TLJ did right, there is alot it did wrong. Rian Johnsons overall idea, to make Star Wars new and different was a good one, and I have always said that some of the concepts in that movie (Rey being a no one, The Force being used by anyone regardless of parentage) should have been expanded on.

But taking Holdo as an example, I think there was alot of new stuff that was also just there for the sake of being different. Holdo was a character we have seen a hundred times, the general who seems like an ass but in the end has a plan. They even has the "sacrifice for the guys I was an asshole to" cliche. She was a new character, but an old archetype, an archetype that existed in many characters that were part of the Resistance/Rebellion. This new-ness made the character seem unimportant, especially given the fact that she does not appear in the next film, she seemed to be made to be thrown away.

While he scene with the Raddus jumping into the Supremacy is one of my favourite moments from TLJ, imagine how much more emotional, or at least meaningful and interesting, it would have been if it had been a character most fans liked and knew, doing the piloting. If it had been Ackbar, for example, it would have been much more meaningful. Hell, they could have then had Holdo survive, and built her up into more than a two-dimensional character, and expanded on her relationship with Leia and Poe.

In short, I do not have anything against new characters, provided they are actually useful, well written, and expand the story. As it was, Holdo appeared to exist just to piss off Poe and show he was not ready for leadership.

While RoS was indeed a mess, it was the best ST movie, if only because it finally succeeded in making me give a crap about any of the characters. TFA was a meh introduction to the new characters. TLJ left me disliking them. RoS actually moved the characters forward, even if the storyline was a dumpster fire.

Moved the characters forward? In what sense?

The only interesting thing was Rey's innate dark side abilities, which should have manifested themselves a whole lot sooner if they wanted that to be a thing.

TFA was just a rehash of ANH. TLJ has some beautiful scenes and good ideas but had alot that fell flat. RoS just felt like they threw everything they thought people liked about Star Wars at a wall.

You liked Palpatine? Here's Palpatine!
You liked the OG Star Destroyers? Here's 500 of them.
You liked planets we hardly care about going boom? Heres another one!

It was just a total mess. I felt no pay-off from Reys story arc because I was too distracted by the total 180 they did on her parentage and the absolutely ridiculous idea of bringing Palpatine back. I felt no pay off from Poe or Finn because, if memory serves, they really did not do all that much except follow Rey around and shoot some fools.

Kylo had some redemption, but after taking command and being set up in TLJ as the big bad, having him revert to the subservient minion that redeems themselves before death trope was just disappointing.

Ironically, I think that the best way to view the ST is when all three movies are taken independently of one another. If each one was a stand alone installment, and we had no knowledge of any of the others while watching them, I think they would have been decent. But when the three are put back to back to back and are trying to tell a coherent story, they just fall apart.

Say what you will about both he PT or the OT, each film felt like it flowed into the next.

[Pythaga]

Ironically, I think that the best way to view the ST is when all three movies are taken independently of one another. If each one was a stand alone installment, and we had no knowledge of any of the others while watching them, I think they would have been decent. But when the three are put back to back to back and are trying to tell a coherent story, they just fall apart.

Say what you will about both he PT or the OT, each film felt like it flowed into the next.

You can argue all you want about how poorly the films were written or how bad the characters were or how political the films may or may not have been, but I think this single thing is what bothers me most about the ST. I can understand wanting to give different directors and writers turns so that each film is unique, after all the OT had a different director for each film, along with different writers. However, there really should have been one over-arching authority on the path the stories and characters were supposed to take, to ensure a sensical narrative while allowing some wiggle room for the individuality of the writers and directors to shine through. Not having a single unified guiding vision was the ST's single biggest failure in my opinion.

[Jedi Council]

Ironically, I think that the best way to view the ST is when all three movies are taken independently of one another. If each one was a stand alone installment, and we had no knowledge of any of the others while watching them, I think they would have been decent. But when the three are put back to back to back and are trying to tell a coherent story, they just fall apart.

Say what you will about both he PT or the OT, each film felt like it flowed into the next.

You can argue all you want about how poorly the films were written or how bad the characters were or how political the films may or may not have been, but I think this single thing is what bothers me most about the ST. I can understand wanting to give different directors and writers turns so that each film is unique, after all the OT had a different director for each film, along with different writers. However, there really should have been one over-arching authority on the path the stories and characters were supposed to take, to ensure a sensical narrative while allowing some wiggle room for the individuality of the writers and directors to shine through. Not having a single unified guiding vision was the ST's single biggest failure in my opinion.

Agreed, that is why TFA is largely uncontroversial, if kind of meh, while TLJ and RoS are so radically opposed to one another.

Trying to reconcile those two films gives me whiplash

[Andsed]

Speaking of the Rise of Skywalker I have remembered another gripe with the film. The whole Chewie fakeout death. They should have just killed Chewie. He had no real purpose in the story anymore and having Rey kill Chewie would be a good character moment for her. Not to mention it would help with the problem of Rey´s power level feeling unearned by making her work to control it.

[The Huskar Social Union]

Speaking of the Rise of Skywalker I have remembered another gripe with the film. The whole Chewie fakeout death. They should have just killed Chewie. He had no real purpose in the story anymore and having Rey kill Chewie would be a good character moment for her. Not to mention it would help with the problem of Rey´s power level feeling unearned by making her work to control it.

Also the same with C3PO, should have just had his memory stay wiped and then have R2 or something begin to teach him everything again.

[Ameriganastan]

Speaking of the Rise of Skywalker I have remembered another gripe with the film. The whole Chewie fakeout death. They should have just killed Chewie. He had no real purpose in the story anymore and having Rey kill Chewie would be a good character moment for her. Not to mention it would help with the problem of Rey´s power level feeling unearned by making her work to control it.

Are you nuts? People were always looking for another reason to hate her. You think killing off an iconic character would have improved fan's stance on her?

[Andsed]

Speaking of the Rise of Skywalker I have remembered another gripe with the film. The whole Chewie fakeout death. They should have just killed Chewie. He had no real purpose in the story anymore and having Rey kill Chewie would be a good character moment for her. Not to mention it would help with the problem of Rey´s power level feeling unearned by making her work to control it.

Are you nuts? People were always looking for another reason to hate her. You think killing off an iconic character would have improved fan's stance on her?

Admittedly no. By the point of Rise of Skywalker there was not much that would make Rey a popular character. But it would make her a more defensible character along with giving the moment some emotional weight behind it.

Speaking of the Rise of Skywalker I have remembered another gripe with the film. The whole Chewie fakeout death. They should have just killed Chewie. He had no real purpose in the story anymore and having Rey kill Chewie would be a good character moment for her. Not to mention it would help with the problem of Rey´s power level feeling unearned by making her work to control it.

Also the same with C3PO, should have just had his memory stay wiped and then have R2 or something begin to teach him everything again.

Hell they did not even need to do that whole memory wiping shit. Like instead of him just not being able to translate it just like have the Knights of Ren attack the group(thereby letting them actually do something) and take it before it can be translated. Gives the group the excuse to sneak onto the star destroyer and avoid all that C3PO ¨dying but not really¨ plot point that went no where.

[The first Galactic Republic]

No way. I love that Chewie outlives all the original human characters, whereas he was the only major character to die in the original EU.

[Pythaga]

No way. I love that Chewie outlives all the original human characters, whereas he was the only major character to die in the original EU.

As much as I hated him dying in the EU, it most definitely served a purpose in the character development of Han and Anakin, and he died for a cause. As opposed to Luke’s death in TLJ where he basically decides he messed up so should just give up and die, only really affecting Rey in the very final scene of TROS.

[Jedi Council]

No way. I love that Chewie outlives all the original human characters, whereas he was the only major character to die in the original EU.

As much as I hated him dying in the EU, it most definitely served a purpose in the character development of Han and Anakin, and he died for a cause. As opposed to Luke’s death in TLJ where he basically decides he messed up so should just give up and die, only really affecting Rey in the very final scene of TROS.

They screwed up Kylo and Luke's relationship hard.