Star Wars: The Force Shall Free Us All

[Ameriganastan]

Why? I can understand disliking him, but where does the visceral hatred come from?

In the Original Trilogy, he was an piece of shit that tried to emotionally manipulate Luke into committing patricide because he couldn't -or wouldn't- do it on his own like, 18 years earlier. In the Prequel Trilogy, he was pretty much the exact characterless, stupid and poorly-designed Mary Sue that some people keep accusing Rey of being. In The Clone Wars he was a War Criminal of the Highest Order. There's virtually nothing about this character for me not to abhor in its entirety.

[Sildorian Empire]

In the Original Trilogy, he was an piece of shit that tried to emotionally manipulate Luke into committing patricide because he couldn't -or wouldn't- do it on his own like, 18 years earlier. In the Prequel Trilogy, he was pretty much the exact characterless, stupid and poorly-designed Mary Sue that some people keep accusing Rey of being. In The Clone Wars he was a War Criminal of the Highest Order. There's virtually nothing about this character for me not to abhor in its entirety.

Bold words coming from "I will never watch The Clone Wars because it season one had Ahsoka Tano in it"

[Ameriganastan]

Bold words coming from "I will never watch The Clone Wars because it season one had Ahsoka Tano in it"

Yeah, I found her annoying. I'm not the only one. But you out here badmouthing and shit-talking Obi-Goddamn-Wan Kenobi, son. Like damn, you see some of the stuff you saying about him?

[Sildorian Empire]

Bold words coming from "I will never watch The Clone Wars because it season one had Ahsoka Tano in it"

Yeah, I found her annoying. I'm not the only one. But you out here badmouthing and shit-talking Obi-Goddamn-Wan Kenobi, son. Like damn, you see some of the stuff you saying about him?

Yes, and unlike the people who find Ahsoka annoying, I'm completely right. Nothing that I've said about Obi-Wan Kenobi is actually false. He is a Mary Sue, he did try to emotionally manipulate a teen to commit patricide, and he is a War Criminal.

[Ameriganastan]

Yeah, I found her annoying. I'm not the only one. But you out here badmouthing and shit-talking Obi-Goddamn-Wan Kenobi, son. Like damn, you see some of the stuff you saying about him?

Yes, and unlike the people who find Ahsoka annoying, I'm completely right. Nothing that I've said about Obi-Wan Kenobi is actually false. He is a Mary Sue, he did try to emotionally manipulate a teen to commit patricide, and he is a War Criminal.

You're oversimplifying things, my dude. He wasn't manipulating Luke into patricide. He was trying to get him to bring balance to the force and possibly bring him back to the light side. Which almost worked by the way, if not for Palpy frying his life support.

[Sildorian Empire]

Yes, and unlike the people who find Ahsoka annoying, I'm completely right. Nothing that I've said about Obi-Wan Kenobi is actually false. He is a Mary Sue, he did try to emotionally manipulate a teen to commit patricide, and he is a War Criminal.

You're oversimplifying things, my dude. He wasn't manipulating Luke into patricide. He was trying to get him to bring balance to the force and possibly bring him back to the light side. Which almost worked by the way, if not for Palpy frying his life support.

He was trying to get him to "bring balance to the force" by doing what exactly? By emotionally manipulating him into committing patricide, intentionally misleading him into thinking Vader had killed Anakin so he would attempt to kill Vader as revenge. Which makes him, again, an emotionally abusive asshole who tried to manipulate a teen into committing patricide.

[Ameriganastan]

You're oversimplifying things, my dude. He wasn't manipulating Luke into patricide. He was trying to get him to bring balance to the force and possibly bring him back to the light side. Which almost worked by the way, if not for Palpy frying his life support.

He was trying to get him to "bring balance to the force" by doing what exactly? By emotionally manipulating him into committing patricide, intentionally misleading him into thinking Vader had killed Anakin so he would attempt to kill Vader as revenge. Which makes him, again, an emotionally abusive asshole who tried to manipulate a teen into committing patricide.

So you're just gonna keep repeating that completely incorrect "Manipulated into patricide" thing, huh? Yeah, I'll let someone else try and pop your little bubble of delusion. I'm going to bed.

[Idzequitch]

Why? I can understand disliking him, but where does the visceral hatred come from?

In the Original Trilogy, he was an piece of shit that tried to emotionally manipulate Luke into committing patricide because he couldn't -or wouldn't- do it on his own like, 18 years earlier. In the Prequel Trilogy, he was pretty much the exact characterless, stupid and poorly-designed Mary Sue that some people keep accusing Rey of being. In The Clone Wars he was a War Criminal of the Highest Order. There's virtually nothing about this character for me not to abhor in its entirety.

We can agree to disagree on the methods, but how do you think Luke would have responded if Ben had just said, "Hey, I knew your dad. Wanna go kill him?" If he does that, the OT story ends in the first few minutes of the first movie. Also, notice how Ben never told Luke to kill Vader. He was just mobilizing the Rebellion's best hope of defeating the Empire. Yeah Daddy's the Dark Lord running the show, but after multiple conversations with live Ben and Ghost Ben, Luke still doesn't want to kill Vader, despite the fact that Ben had many opportunuties to encourage it, and Luke had plenty of reason to want to kill him anyway. Sounds like solid Jedi training from Old Ben to me.

Also, I fail to see how he's "characterless." He's the most compelling character in the Prequels. He's got his dry sense of humor, his honor-driven and moralistic nature, his natural tendency to follow rules, with a streak of "Qui-Gon's defiance" as Master Yoda put it. He's loyal and a good friend and mentor, constantly giving Anakin advice and offering encouragement. He's a well-rounded character.

Also how the hell is he a Mary Sue? He beat Maul because Maul got cocky and thought he'd won already. Dooku beat him twice. Grievous is probably his most impressive victory, but he was pushed to the edge even there. Yoda straight up told him he wasn't strong enough to face Sidious, and then he beat Anakin only because Anakin was blinded by rage and made a poor tactical decision.

Meanwhile, you keep going on about him being a war criminal, but I have yet to see you offer any substance for that claim.

So I can see how a character like Obi-Wan could rub someone the wrong way. Sarcastic dry wit from a strongly principled character isn't for everyone. But he's literally none of the things you accuse him of. But sure, let the hate flow through you. Screaming "I hate you!" like Anakin is always an option. But remember his hate warped his view of who Obi-Wan was, as, I would suggest, has also happened to you. No doubt you'll have a retort against all of Obi-Wan's endearing qualities, but I would have to proclaim with confidence: I have the high ground.

[Sildorian Empire]

He was trying to get him to "bring balance to the force" by doing what exactly? By emotionally manipulating him into committing patricide, intentionally misleading him into thinking Vader had killed Anakin so he would attempt to kill Vader as revenge. Which makes him, again, an emotionally abusive asshole who tried to manipulate a teen into committing patricide.

So you're just gonna keep repeating that completely incorrect "Manipulated into patricide" thing, huh? Yeah, I'll let someone else try and pop your little bubble of delusion. I'm going to bed.

Go to bed. I don't know why you even responded in the first place if you've apparently never watched Star Wars at all.

[Idzequitch]

So you're just gonna keep repeating that completely incorrect "Manipulated into patricide" thing, huh? Yeah, I'll let someone else try and pop your little bubble of delusion. I'm going to bed.

Go to bed. I don't know why you even responded in the first place if you've apparently never watched Star Wars at all.

Ah. Ad hominem. That's always a useful weapon when healthy debate fails.

[The Huskar Social Union]

So you're just gonna keep repeating that completely incorrect "Manipulated into patricide" thing, huh? Yeah, I'll let someone else try and pop your little bubble of delusion. I'm going to bed.

Go to bed. I don't know why you even responded in the first place if you've apparently never watched Star Wars at all.

Stop acting like a child.

[Sildorian Empire]

Go to bed. I don't know why you even responded in the first place if you've apparently never watched Star Wars at all.

Ah. Ad hominem. That's always a useful weapon when healthy debate fails.

How in the nine hells is what I said an ad hominem lmao.

[Jedi Council]

Ah. Ad hominem. That's always a useful weapon when healthy debate fails.

How in the nine hells is what I said an ad hominem lmao.

Ad Hominem: "Typically it refers to a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself."

You made a judgement and attack about his knowledge of Star Wars rather than debating his arguments about it directly.

[Sildorian Empire]

How in the nine hells is what I said an ad hominem lmao.

Ad Hominem: "Typically it refers to a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself."

You made a judgement and attack about his knowledge of Star Wars rather than debating his arguments about it directly.

He didn't make an argument, he accused me of being delusional because I did not accept that the ends justify the means Obi-Wan took for bringing the so-called balance to the Force. So I accused him, in return, of never having watched the movies because his argument was basically word-for-word taken from a "Synopsis" article on the movies.

[Idzequitch]

I'm sorry I brought it up. Can we get back to the actual argument (if indeed there is still one to be had) instead of arguing about what is and isn't a fallacious argument?

[Jedi Council]

I'm sorry I brought it up. Can we get back to the actual argument (if indeed there is still one to be had) instead of arguing about what is and isn't a fallacious argument?

Indeed, I'm curious as to the proof behind the statement Obi Wan is a War criminal.

[The Huskar Social Union]

I'm sorry I brought it up. Can we get back to the actual argument (if indeed there is still one to be had) instead of arguing about what is and isn't a fallacious argument?

No! WE IZ JUST WARMING UP!

[Sildorian Empire]

I'm sorry I brought it up. Can we get back to the actual argument (if indeed there is still one to be had) instead of arguing about what is and isn't a fallacious argument?

Indeed, I'm curious as to the proof behind the statement Obi Wan is a War criminal.

Breaks the flag of truce -offered in good faith- repeatedly and in perfidy. Uses surrender negotiations (or really, any type of negotiations) as "buying time". Uses a Slave Army. And we're ignoring the whole "mind-rape" thing that the entirety of the Jedi have going on. I'd get around with the whole "reprogramming droids" thing but given the status of droids is muddy at best, it's not really relevant. Of course, it helps that he's not the only one who does this -he's just one of the few Jedi Generals who're actually doing anything. The only thing that makes him not a bad guy is because the Seppies are like, at least ten times worse.

[Idzequitch]

Indeed, I'm curious as to the proof behind the statement Obi Wan is a War criminal.

Breaks the flag of truce -offered in good faith- repeatedly and in perfidy. Uses surrender negotiations (or really, any type of negotiations) as "buying time". Uses a Slave Army. And we're ignoring the whole "mind-rape" thing that the entirety of the Jedi have going on. I'd get around with the whole "reprogramming droids" thing but given the status of droids is muddy at best, it's not really relevant. Of course, it helps that he's not the only one who does this -he's just one of the few Jedi Generals who're actually doing anything. The only thing that makes him not a bad guy is because the Seppies are like, at least ten times worse.

Most of this sounds more like a critique against the Republic as a whole (and the Jedi Order along with it) than against Obi-Wan individually. Which is actually a far more interesting idea that I would be far more willing to consider.

The only thing I see here that's unique to Kenobi is the negotiation thing. Which for one, Anakin is always there for those too (usually his idea if I recall rightly), yet you're not ranting about him. And secondly, it mostly only results in the destruction of droids, not the taking of sentient life, which in my opinion, eases the level of offense on that count.

[Sildorian Empire]

Breaks the flag of truce -offered in good faith- repeatedly and in perfidy. Uses surrender negotiations (or really, any type of negotiations) as "buying time". Uses a Slave Army. And we're ignoring the whole "mind-rape" thing that the entirety of the Jedi have going on. I'd get around with the whole "reprogramming droids" thing but given the status of droids is muddy at best, it's not really relevant. Of course, it helps that he's not the only one who does this -he's just one of the few Jedi Generals who're actually doing anything. The only thing that makes him not a bad guy is because the Seppies are like, at least ten times worse.

Most of this sounds more like a critique against the Republic as a whole (and the Jedi Order along with it) than against Obi-Wan individually. Which is actually a far more interesting idea that I would be far more willing to consider.

The only thing I see here that's unique to Kenobi is the negotiation thing. Which for one, Anakin is always there for those too (usually his idea if I recall rightly), yet you're not ranting about him. And secondly, it mostly only results in the destruction of droids, not the taking of sentient life, which in my opinion, eases the level of offense on that count.

I mean, the same thing (apart from the whole "perfidy" thing which really only applies to Obi-Wan and Anakin. Maybe Ahsoka too if you squint hard enough, but we haven't seen other Jedi do it) does apply to the Republic. But the fact it applies to the Republic as a whole doesn't mean it doesn't also apply on Obi-Wan as an individual. He's a War Criminal, and the Republic as a whole endorses War Crimes because they (at least) tolerate or (more probably) encourage this and worse (i.e. using Flamethrowers on planet-side resistance while occupying Separatist Worlds).

Furthermore, perfidy is perfidy. It doesn't need to result in more or less "sentient casualties" to be so. And really? I'm not talking about Anakin. I'd have much worse things to call him a war criminal for than just perfidy. Killing multiple surrendered enemy officers without any sort of trial being an example of such.

[New haven america]

[New haven america]

Why? I can understand disliking him, but where does the visceral hatred come from?

In the Original Trilogy, he was an piece of shit that tried to emotionally manipulate Luke into committing patricide because he couldn't -or wouldn't- do it on his own like, 18 years earlier. In the Prequel Trilogy, he was pretty much the exact characterless, stupid and poorly-designed Mary Sue that some people keep accusing Rey of being. In The Clone Wars he was a War Criminal of the Highest Order. There's virtually nothing about this character for me not to abhor in its entirety.

Ok well, this is an interesting opinion, but you didn't answer why he's a war criminal.

[Andsed]

Why? I can understand disliking him, but where does the visceral hatred come from?

In the Original Trilogy, he was an piece of shit that tried to emotionally manipulate Luke into committing patricide because he couldn't -or wouldn't- do it on his own like, 18 years earlier. In the Prequel Trilogy, he was pretty much the exact characterless, stupid and poorly-designed Mary Sue that some people keep accusing Rey of being. In The Clone Wars he was a War Criminal of the Highest Order. There's virtually nothing about this character for me not to abhor in its entirety.

The patricide argument falls apart when you realize that were talking about Vader here, the right hand to the emperor and who has killed millions and is a symbol of oppression to the galaxy. I don't think Luke needed any encouragement to want to see him dead. And the idea of him being a Mary Sue is fucking absurd. He fails all the damm time. In fights and upholding the Jedi Code and in the fact it was his failings as a teacher that led to Anakin falling to dark side. Not liking him is one thing but calling him a "characterless, stupid and poorly-designed Mary Sue" is dumb.

[Sildorian Empire]

In the Original Trilogy, he was an piece of shit that tried to emotionally manipulate Luke into committing patricide because he couldn't -or wouldn't- do it on his own like, 18 years earlier. In the Prequel Trilogy, he was pretty much the exact characterless, stupid and poorly-designed Mary Sue that some people keep accusing Rey of being. In The Clone Wars he was a War Criminal of the Highest Order. There's virtually nothing about this character for me not to abhor in its entirety.

The patricide argument falls apart when you realize that were talking about Vader here, the right hand to the emperor and who has killed millions and is a symbol of oppression to the galaxy. I don't think Luke needed any encouragement to want to see him dead. And the idea of him being a Mary Sue is fucking absurd. He fails all the damm time. In fights and upholding the Jedi Code and in the fact it was his failings as a teacher that led to Anakin falling to dark side. Not liking him is one thing but calling him a "characterless, stupid and poorly-designed Mary Sue" is dumb.

1- It doesn't. Obi-Wan doesn't convince Luke to "go kill Vader because he's a Sith who's at least partially responsible for a genocide" -he pretty much doesn't say this, and its clear Luke's beef with Vader is not as "chief enforcer of a totalitarian, slavering, genocidal regime" but as "You killed my father". He tries to convince Luke to kill him because "I knew your father, Vader killed him". Which is even more hilarious because he's basically sending a guy who's had 3-4 days of training (if even that) to go fight one of the five most well-trained Force Users who're still around. Which doesn't really endear him to me any further, but that's irrelevant.

2- He only gets that when he's developed, which happens with other content. Legends, The Clone Wars, etc. In the Trilogy, he's basically the exact thing people accuse Rey of being: A characterless, stupid and poorly-designed Mary Sue who succeeds where he logically should not because he's the good guy and literally no other reason, who's virtually never faced with consequences for his actions -meta or in canon- and who's pretty much the only character who can break convention and warp morality by "it's alright when he does it".

[Sildorian Empire]

In the Original Trilogy, he was an piece of shit that tried to emotionally manipulate Luke into committing patricide because he couldn't -or wouldn't- do it on his own like, 18 years earlier. In the Prequel Trilogy, he was pretty much the exact characterless, stupid and poorly-designed Mary Sue that some people keep accusing Rey of being. In The Clone Wars he was a War Criminal of the Highest Order. There's virtually nothing about this character for me not to abhor in its entirety.

Ok well, this is an interesting opinion, but you didn't answer why he's a war criminal.

The person I responded to asked me why I hated Obi-Wan, not why he's a war criminal.