Star Wars: The Force Shall Free Us All

[Des-Bal]

I went looking for pro-Rose Tico opinions because I find the character awful. I found people talking about how asian and female she was with some adding that she was a mechanic. Obviously anyone attacking KMT is a dick but how is it okay to push a character based on the sex and race of the actor playing them?

[North German Realm]

Seriously. Kylo at his most emotional point (he's both hurt and angry, both of which only aid him given his affiliation in the Force), even if he's heavily injured, vs. Rey without even a day of training with a lightsaber? I mean, even Disney canon states that you need years of practice with a lightsaber just to be good enough with the weapon that you don't accidentally mutilate yourself or someone else with it.

And I dont think heavily injured is the right word since he beat Finn (a trained soilder) with ease and Rey was injured as well being knocked unconscious by Kylo. Now plot armor has always been a thing in Star Wars, but unlike with Luke or Anakin who we actually see struggle and fail, Rey has nothing that makes that plot armor feel earned. She just can suddenly do it. It just feels contrived.

I mean didn't he take a direct hit from Chewie's crossbow thing? That's just Kylo being stupidly OP before the movie nerfs him into "gets beaten by person with zero hours of training with a Lightsaber". Tho ig it's still better than Finn using a lightsaber, given the latter isn't even force sensitive. Seriously disney wtf

[Jedi Council]

I went looking for pro-Rose Tico opinions because I find the character awful. I found people talking about how asian and female she was with some adding that she was a mechanic. Obviously anyone attacking KMT is a dick but how is it okay to push a character based on the sex and race of the actor playing them?

I actually never found Rose to be that bad. The only part that frustrated me was her saving Finn at the end, and having the most sexless kiss ever seen on screen.

Other than that, she was just very meh for me, much like most of the Cantobite/Finn arc from TLJ.

Per the race question however, I do think there is something to be said from seeing someone who "looks like you on screen," even if said character was not the best written or portrayed. Alot of people might roll their eyes at that, but for alot of people in minority groups, seeing themselves in a character is an important experience. The closest example I can think of for me was Pedro Pascal's Oberyn in Season 4 GOT; his character really amazed me, as a young closeted gay kid, because of how powerful and confident he was, regardless of his sexuality.

Now, to be fair, Oberyn was a much, much, much, better character than Rose, but I cant fault anyone who likes her because of how seeing her makes them feel.

[Aureumterra]

And I dont think heavily injured is the right word since he beat Finn (a trained soilder) with ease and Rey was injured as well being knocked unconscious by Kylo. Now plot armor has always been a thing in Star Wars, but unlike with Luke or Anakin who we actually see struggle and fail, Rey has nothing that makes that plot armor feel earned. She just can suddenly do it. It just feels contrived.

I mean didn't he take a direct hit from Chewie's crossbow thing? That's just Kylo being stupidly OP before the movie nerfs him into "gets beaten by person with zero hours of training with a Lightsaber". Tho ig it's still better than Finn using a lightsaber, given the latter isn't even force sensitive. Seriously disney wtf

I have already just disregarded the new trilogy, it was created solely to push a feminist narrative without adding to the story

[HC Eredivisie]

And I dont think heavily injured is the right word since he beat Finn (a trained soilder) with ease and Rey was injured as well being knocked unconscious by Kylo. Now plot armor has always been a thing in Star Wars, but unlike with Luke or Anakin who we actually see struggle and fail, Rey has nothing that makes that plot armor feel earned. She just can suddenly do it. It just feels contrived.

I mean didn't he take a direct hit from Chewie's crossbow thing? That's just Kylo being stupidly OP before the movie nerfs him into "gets beaten by person with zero hours of training with a Lightsaber". Tho ig it's still better than Finn using a lightsaber, given the latter isn't even force sensitive. Seriously disney wtf

Since when does one need to be force sensitive to use a lightsaber? Grievous wasn't and he used four simultaniously.

[Ameriganastan]

I went looking for pro-Rose Tico opinions because I find the character awful. I found people talking about how asian and female she was with some adding that she was a mechanic. Obviously anyone attacking KMT is a dick but how is it okay to push a character based on the sex and race of the actor playing them?

I liked Rose. I thought she was fun.

[Andsed]

I mean didn't he take a direct hit from Chewie's crossbow thing? That's just Kylo being stupidly OP before the movie nerfs him into "gets beaten by person with zero hours of training with a Lightsaber". Tho ig it's still better than Finn using a lightsaber, given the latter isn't even force sensitive. Seriously disney wtf

Since when does one need to be force sensitive to use a lightsaber? Grievous wasn't and he used four simultaniously.

You don´t need to but generally it requires even more trainng than the already large amount of training for a force sensitive. I can accept Finn using a lightsaber, based that the stormtrooper he fought TFA using a baton it is not to far out there that he has some training in melee combat, and I can also accept Rey being able to use one and not mutilate herself. Plot armor has always been a thing in Star Wars, I just think having Rey beat one of the main villains in the first movie was a really bad idea.

[Ameriganastan]

Since when does one need to be force sensitive to use a lightsaber? Grievous wasn't and he used four simultaniously.

You don´t need to but generally it requires even more trainng than the already large amount of training for a force sensitive. I can accept Finn using a lightsaber, based that the stormtrooper he fought TFA using a baton it is not to far out there that he has some training in melee combat, and I can also accept Rey being able to use one and not mutilate herself. Plot armor has always been a thing in Star Wars, I just think having Rey beat one of the main villains in the first movie was a really bad idea.

I do want to specify that Finn was a janitor.

[HC Eredivisie]

You don´t need to but generally it requires even more trainng than the already large amount of training for a force sensitive. I can accept Finn using a lightsaber, based that the stormtrooper he fought TFA using a baton it is not to far out there that he has some training in melee combat, and I can also accept Rey being able to use one and not mutilate herself. Plot armor has always been a thing in Star Wars, I just think having Rey beat one of the main villains in the first movie was a really bad idea.

I do want to specify that Finn was a janitor.

True, bit still trained as Stormtrooper so Andsend has a point.

[Andsed]

You don´t need to but generally it requires even more trainng than the already large amount of training for a force sensitive. I can accept Finn using a lightsaber, based that the stormtrooper he fought TFA using a baton it is not to far out there that he has some training in melee combat, and I can also accept Rey being able to use one and not mutilate herself. Plot armor has always been a thing in Star Wars, I just think having Rey beat one of the main villains in the first movie was a really bad idea.

I do want to specify that Finn was a janitor.

Yes he was, but we do see him at the beginning of the movie being deployed to an active combat zone meaning he was an actual combatant meaning his a trained soldier. Him being a janitor must have just been an assignment while he was stationed on Starkiller base. Soldiers being given assignments in things like sanitation when their stationed somewhere is not some really some absurd idea.

[Jedi Council]

I mean didn't he take a direct hit from Chewie's crossbow thing? That's just Kylo being stupidly OP before the movie nerfs him into "gets beaten by person with zero hours of training with a Lightsaber". Tho ig it's still better than Finn using a lightsaber, given the latter isn't even force sensitive. Seriously disney wtf

Since when does one need to be force sensitive to use a lightsaber? Grievous wasn't and he used four simultaniously.

Yes but Grievous was trained in their use by one of the greatest swordsmen of his day.

Finn and Rey, by comparison, should not have even close to Kylo in terms of skill.

[Andsed]

And I dont think heavily injured is the right word since he beat Finn (a trained soilder) with ease and Rey was injured as well being knocked unconscious by Kylo. Now plot armor has always been a thing in Star Wars, but unlike with Luke or Anakin who we actually see struggle and fail, Rey has nothing that makes that plot armor feel earned. She just can suddenly do it. It just feels contrived.

I mean didn't he take a direct hit from Chewie's crossbow thing? That's just Kylo being stupidly OP before the movie nerfs him into "gets beaten by person with zero hours of training with a Lightsaber". Tho ig it's still better than Finn using a lightsaber, given the latter isn't even force sensitive. Seriously disney wtf

A bowcaster is like a shotgun. Devastating at close range, not so much at long ranges. While I don´t know the exact distance Chewie fired at it does seem to be out of a bowcasters optimal range and this did not seem to be a fully charged shot(hence Kylo only falling to his knees, not thrown back like we saw at Mazs castle.) Which would mean that it would hurt like a bitch and limit Kylos fighting ability, but not the point where he could not take on someone with only some training in melee combat and not even with a lightsaber. And also Rey herself was wounded (being thrown against a tree hard enough to knock her out) so at most she really should have only been able to just barely hold her own in the encounter, not beat Kylo like she did.

But plot amour is not my real issue with this scene. That has always been a thing in Star Wars. My issue is that having Rey be able to have this amount of skill without showing any real training or struggling on her part makes it feel unearned and contrived and really hurts Kylo´s ability to feel like a threat.

[Jedi Council]

I mean didn't he take a direct hit from Chewie's crossbow thing? That's just Kylo being stupidly OP before the movie nerfs him into "gets beaten by person with zero hours of training with a Lightsaber". Tho ig it's still better than Finn using a lightsaber, given the latter isn't even force sensitive. Seriously disney wtf

A bowcaster is like a shotgun. Devastating at close range, not so much at long ranges. While I don´t know the exact distance Chewie fired at it does seem to be out of a bowcasters optimal range and this did not seem to be a fully charged shot(hence Kylo only being falling to his knees, not thrown back like we saw at Mazs castle.) Which would mean that it would hurt like a bitch and limit Kylos fighting ability, but not the point where he could not take on someone with only some training in melee combat and not even with a lightsaber. And also Rey herself was wounded (being thrown against a tree hard enough to knock her out) so at most she really should have only been able to just barely hold her own in the encounter, not beat Kylo like she did.

But plot amour is not my real issue with this scene. That has always been a thing in Star Wars. My issue is that having Rey be able to have this amount of skill without showing any real training or struggling on her part makes it feel unearned and contrived and really hurts Kylo´s ability to feel like a threat.

Agreed, Kylo was a decent villain up to that point. After Rey beat him in TFA, he never regained any kind of menace, he was always just meh.

[Fedel]

I went looking for pro-Rose Tico opinions because I find the character awful. I found people talking about how asian and female she was with some adding that she was a mechanic. Obviously anyone attacking KMT is a dick but how is it okay to push a character based on the sex and race of the actor playing them?

I liked Rose. I thought she was fun.

In what way? I'm not saying she's without any redeemable/good aspects at all, but I honestly wouldn't say "fun" was the main way she was portrayed.

[Ameriganastan]

I liked Rose. I thought she was fun.

In what way? I'm not saying she's without any redeemable/good aspects at all, but I honestly wouldn't say "fun" was the main way she was portrayed.

What's not fun about someone tasing another guy?

[Fedel]

In what way? I'm not saying she's without any redeemable/good aspects at all, but I honestly wouldn't say "fun" was the main way she was portrayed.

What's not fun about someone tasing another guy?

Well, depends on who's being tazed. :>

[Idzequitch]

I went looking for pro-Rose Tico opinions because I find the character awful. I found people talking about how asian and female she was with some adding that she was a mechanic. Obviously anyone attacking KMT is a dick but how is it okay to push a character based on the sex and race of the actor playing them?

I actually never found Rose to be that bad. The only part that frustrated me was her saving Finn at the end, and having the most sexless kiss ever seen on screen.

Other than that, she was just very meh for me, much like most of the Cantobite/Finn arc from TLJ.

Per the race question however, I do think there is something to be said from seeing someone who "looks like you on screen," even if said character was not the best written or portrayed. Alot of people might roll their eyes at that, but for alot of people in minority groups, seeing themselves in a character is an important experience. The closest example I can think of for me was Pedro Pascal's Oberyn in Season 4 GOT; his character really amazed me, as a young closeted gay kid, because of how powerful and confident he was, regardless of his sexuality.

Now, to be fair, Oberyn was a much, much, much, better character than Rose, but I cant fault anyone who likes her because of how seeing her makes them feel.

I see exactly what you're saying. But at the same time, if I was looking for someone I could identify with on screen, I wouldn't even want to look at a character as bland and blah as Rose. I feel like I would almost be more put off by that than anything. I'm not gonna scold anyone for liking what she represents as far as diversity, but if you're going to try so hard to put an Asian actor/character in a decently major role, maybe you could at least make that character decent.

[Andsed]

I am not a major fan of Rose tbh. I felt like she was just kinda a pointless addition to the movie. The whole casino side plot was just pointless and boring. It went basically no where other than getting Finn and Rose on Snokes ship. And the whole thing of Rose crashing into Finn was dumb. She is not terrible but I don´t think her addition really helped the movie.

It would have been better to perhaps keep Finn on the ship so he could continue to interact with Poe(who he has much better chemistry with imo) and give him a character arc of adjusting to being a member of the resistance and even dealing with the ramifications of killing stormtroopers(I hate that they never addressed how Finn was killing stormtroopers who he should know never really chose to fight for the First Order.)

[Idzequitch]

I am not a major fan of Rose tbh. I felt like she was just kinda a pointless addition to the movie. The whole casino side plot was just pointless and boring. It went basically no where other than getting Finn and Rose on Snokes ship. And the whole thing of Rose crashing into Finn was dumb. She is not terrible but I don´t think her addition really helped the movie.

It would have been better to perhaps keep Finn on the ship so he could continue to interact with Poe(who he has much better chemistry with imo) and give him a character arc of adjusting to being a member of the resistance and even dealing with the ramifications of killing stormtroopers(I hate that they never addressed how Finn was killing stormtroopers who he should know never really chose to fight for the First Order.)

And to be fair, plans go awry and sometimes don't accomplish what is intended. That's part of how movies go. But then you just think about Canto Bight and realize just how little of significance happened. Do the characters learn anything that might help them succeed when their plan fails? No. Does it develop the characters in any way? No. Does it push the relationship between the characters forward in any meaningful way? No. If you were to simply remove the whole sequence from the movie, the only question that would arise from the moviegoer's standpoint is "Where did Finn go?" Basically they took a poorly developed character, sent him off with an inconsequential and uninspiring character, and wasted a good deal of screentime while accomplishing absolutely nothing.

[Andsed]

I am not a major fan of Rose tbh. I felt like she was just kinda a pointless addition to the movie. The whole casino side plot was just pointless and boring. It went basically no where other than getting Finn and Rose on Snokes ship. And the whole thing of Rose crashing into Finn was dumb. She is not terrible but I don´t think her addition really helped the movie.

It would have been better to perhaps keep Finn on the ship so he could continue to interact with Poe(who he has much better chemistry with imo) and give him a character arc of adjusting to being a member of the resistance and even dealing with the ramifications of killing stormtroopers(I hate that they never addressed how Finn was killing stormtroopers who he should know never really chose to fight for the First Order.)

And to be fair, plans go awry and sometimes don't accomplish what is intended. That's part of how movies go. But then you just think about Canto Bight and realize just how little of significance happened. Do the characters learn anything that might help them succeed when their plan fails? No. Does it develop the characters in any way? No. Does it push the relationship between the characters forward in any meaningful way? No. If you were to simply remove the whole sequence from the movie, the only question that would arise from the moviegoer's standpoint is "Where did Finn go?" Basically they took a poorly developed character, sent him off with an inconsequential and uninspiring character, and wasted a good deal of screentime while accomplishing absolutely nothing.

Exactly. And it is a damm shame because they could have done a lot with Finn. They could have used him to introduce actual grey morality to the conflict. Like imagine watching Finn grapple with the fact he killed stromtroopers, who he knows were just innocent people kidnapped and trained to fight for the FO without a choice just like he was. Imagine him hearing Resistance members basically dehumanize stormtroopers(because that tends to happen in war) and trying to not lose his cool with that. They could have really developed Finn as a character and brought up just how messy wars are in a real genuine way(aka not that whole arms dealer thing.) Such a waste.

[Des-Bal]

I actually never found Rose to be that bad. The only part that frustrated me was her saving Finn at the end, and having the most sexless kiss ever seen on screen.

Other than that, she was just very meh for me, much like most of the Cantobite/Finn arc from TLJ.

Per the race question however, I do think there is something to be said from seeing someone who "looks like you on screen," even if said character was not the best written or portrayed. Alot of people might roll their eyes at that, but for alot of people in minority groups, seeing themselves in a character is an important experience. The closest example I can think of for me was Pedro Pascal's Oberyn in Season 4 GOT; his character really amazed me, as a young closeted gay kid, because of how powerful and confident he was, regardless of his sexuality.

Now, to be fair, Oberyn was a much, much, much, better character than Rose, but I cant fault anyone who likes her because of how seeing her makes them feel.

I didn't take Cantobite well. I could go on a pages long rant about the logical issues but the thing that put me off Rose was basically in the broad strokes. She gave a speech about the evil exploitation of the rich casino goers, then made a connection with a poor youth who apparently lives in a stable, then she unleashed a bunch of racing animals and left the kid behind- presumably to clean up after the mess the rebels made. I broke down laughing, if I had to make a joke about a character lacking self-awareness that's pretty much how I'd do it.

Apart from that I got more than a little frustrated when she saved Finn. She appeared out of nowhere breaking the logic of the scene, she ruined Finn's chance to actually do something interesting (which is even worse when he wound up spending TROS reminding Rey of her name), and she capped it with an out of nowhere kiss and an absurd statement. Then Finn apparently sprinted with her unconscious body away from the advancing enemy armor. The entire sequence was so absurd that I just didn't care about anything that happened afterwards.

Exactly. And it is a damm shame because they could have done a lot with Finn. They could have used him to introduce actual grey morality to the conflict. Like imagine watching Finn grapple with the fact he killed stromtroopers, who he knows were just innocent people kidnapped and trained to fight for the FO without a choice just like he was. Imagine him hearing Resistance members basically dehumanize stormtroopers(because that tends to happen in war) and trying to not lose his cool with that. They could have really developed Finn as a character and brought up just how messy wars are in a real genuine way(aka not that whole arms dealer thing.) Such a waste.

Honestly how do you fuck up a converted storm trooper? Humanize those faceless mooks who have been getting slaughtered for decades. Have a character with a nuanced take on the enemy. Maybe he was a conscript, maybe he joined for a lack of options, maybe he saw the First Order as having positive qualities. But no, he's the comic relief with snippets of exposition that he only brings up at times that the audience is expected to have questions.

[Jedi Council]

And to be fair, plans go awry and sometimes don't accomplish what is intended. That's part of how movies go. But then you just think about Canto Bight and realize just how little of significance happened. Do the characters learn anything that might help them succeed when their plan fails? No. Does it develop the characters in any way? No. Does it push the relationship between the characters forward in any meaningful way? No. If you were to simply remove the whole sequence from the movie, the only question that would arise from the moviegoer's standpoint is "Where did Finn go?" Basically they took a poorly developed character, sent him off with an inconsequential and uninspiring character, and wasted a good deal of screentime while accomplishing absolutely nothing.

Exactly. And it is a damm shame because they could have done a lot with Finn. They could have used him to introduce actual grey morality to the conflict. Like imagine watching Finn grapple with the fact he killed stromtroopers, who he knows were just innocent people kidnapped and trained to fight for the FO without a choice just like he was. Imagine him hearing Resistance members basically dehumanize stormtroopers(because that tends to happen in war) and trying to not lose his cool with that. They could have really developed Finn as a character and brought up just how messy wars are in a real genuine way(aka not that whole arms dealer thing.) Such a waste.

It is really unfortunate because John Boyega is actually quite likeable and talented. Frankly, I think all the new leads (Boyega, Ridley, Isaac, Driver) were all really good actors with alot of potential, had they been given well written, balanced characters, with coherent plot lines.

As it was, all of the characters, especially Finn and Poe, were wasted because so much importance was foisted on Rey. She really lacked any one particular skill set because she could apparently do everything.

[Idzequitch]

Exactly. And it is a damm shame because they could have done a lot with Finn. They could have used him to introduce actual grey morality to the conflict. Like imagine watching Finn grapple with the fact he killed stromtroopers, who he knows were just innocent people kidnapped and trained to fight for the FO without a choice just like he was. Imagine him hearing Resistance members basically dehumanize stormtroopers(because that tends to happen in war) and trying to not lose his cool with that. They could have really developed Finn as a character and brought up just how messy wars are in a real genuine way(aka not that whole arms dealer thing.) Such a waste.

It is really unfortunate because John Boyega is actually quite likeable and talented. Frankly, I think all the new leads (Boyega, Ridley, Isaac, Driver) were all really good actors with alot of potential, had they been given well written, balanced characters, with coherent plot lines.

As it was, all of the characters, especially Finn and Poe, were wasted because so much importance was foisted on Rey. She really lacked any one particular skill set because she could apparently do everything.

"But what I do have is an extremely broad and ill-defined set of skills. Skills magically acquired over a very brief career. Skills that make me a nightmare for people who like realistic, well rounded characters, like you."

[Pax Imperica]

The new trilogy itself in my eyes was a horribly botched opportunity. Finn and Poe were potentially intriguing characters that became nothing more than fodder for Rey. Rey was THE epitome of the flat character, an ill defined character. I personally felt that there was much to be done for the villains, who could have become magnificent additions to the complex and beautiful lore, but in the end failed as well.

[Andsed]

Exactly. And it is a damm shame because they could have done a lot with Finn. They could have used him to introduce actual grey morality to the conflict. Like imagine watching Finn grapple with the fact he killed stromtroopers, who he knows were just innocent people kidnapped and trained to fight for the FO without a choice just like he was. Imagine him hearing Resistance members basically dehumanize stormtroopers(because that tends to happen in war) and trying to not lose his cool with that. They could have really developed Finn as a character and brought up just how messy wars are in a real genuine way(aka not that whole arms dealer thing.) Such a waste.

It is really unfortunate because John Boyega is actually quite likeable and talented. Frankly, I think all the new leads (Boyega, Ridley, Isaac, Driver) were all really good actors with alot of potential, had they been given well written, balanced characters, with coherent plot lines.

As it was, all of the characters, especially Finn and Poe, were wasted because so much importance was foisted on Rey. She really lacked any one particular skill set because she could apparently do everything.

Oh yeah, anyone who blames the actors are fucking moronic. The main trio (Rey, Poe, and Finn) all have really good chemistry that I think was kinda wasted. Their interactions were some of the best parts of the movie. It is why I can bear Rise of Skywalker a bit more than The Last Jedi.