Star Wars: The Force Shall Free Us All

[Ism]

By definition, when a Deus ex Machina enters the narrative it is sudden and unexpected. The Force is introduced early in ANH, and it's role in the climax follows naturally from what is discussed in it's introduction and later during Obi-Wan's lesson to Luke. Similarly, it doesn't serve as a Deus ex Machina in ROTJ. At best, in ESB, you could argue Luke using the Force to communicate with Leia qualifies, but I'd say that's a stretch. AOTC and ROTS also lack a Deus ex Machina. In TPM, you could argue Anakin so quickly getting the hand of flying a starship is a, presumably, Force-fueled Deus ex Machina (though this would also apply to Rey in TFA), and while that's a better position than the one from ESB, I still can't say I buy that argument. I can see maybe arguing Rey using the Force to outfight Kylo in TFA is a Deus ex Machina, but like the other two it doesn't seem sufficient to qualify. Finally, we have TROS, where I could see an argument for the Force being a Deus ex Machina, in Rey being able to call upon "All the Jedi" to overpower Palpatine. That's not really set up, solves an otherwise unsolvable problem, and isn't born from any choice or decision the characters have made, it's just dropped in Rey's lap.

The Force literally does whatever the plot needs it to in order for the plot to advance, regardless of what has previously been established. That's definitionally a deus ex machina.

And if being established beforehand makes something not a deus ex machina, then the Purrgil very much are not given their appearances in the series beforehand.

The Force does not "literally [do] whatever the plot needs it to in order to advance," at least not in the OT/PT. And if you want to argue that the ST has bad writing all over the place I sure as hell won't stop you. Why don't you point to an instance in the OT or PT where you think the Force acted as a Deus ex Machina, and I will consider your point, and either concede or try to argue against it. Otherwise we're just going to go back and forth like this until someone get bored.

As for the Purrgil, I haven't watched Rebels, so I'm not going to comment on that. Don't have enough info to argue about it.

I see what you did there, twice.

Getting a proton torpedo in a two meter wide ventilation shaft could also be considered unlikely
You have a point, I just wanted to mention that Ezra's space whale plan was at least a bit foreshadowed. And Lando does probably know a lot of people, though they might not all come to help.

"It's not impossible. I used to bullseye womp rats in my T-16 back home, they're not much bigger than two meters." - Luke Skywalker.

:>

But yeah, I agree prior to Rogue One addressing that inconsistency, the exhaust existing in the first place is a glaring problem with ANH.

Edit: Math error, please ignore the struck numbers.

That's not a glaring problem though. The Death Star is massive, conservatively it has a surface area of 452,160,000 1,808,640,000 meters (based on a 120km diameter, best figure I could find for the Disney era, Legends had it at at least 140km) which is to say, about 0.000000004% (that is to say, 4.0 1 billionth of a percent, or, put another way, if you placed 100 million exhaust ports right next to each other, they would not even constitute 1% of the Death Star's surface) of the Death Star's surface is taken up by this exhaust port. Not exactly hard to imagine that gets overlooked on such a massive construction project. Consider how often machines we create today have unexpected defects and failures, and they're nothing close to this scale and complexity. Add onto that that the targeting computers of the Rebellion were incapable of making the shot in the case of Red Leader, while Gold Leader and his wingmen were not even able to reach the point needed to fire due to the defenses of the Death Star.

This all also ties into the theme of hubris leading to one's own downfall, as the Empire's arrogance causes them to overlook the ability of a small fighter to threaten the Death Star, both in it's design, as it was designed with defending against large craft in mind, and in it's deployment, as Tarkin is to arrogant to consider the small Rebel attack group a threat. Because of this, he does not scramble the TIE contingents to intercept, which likely would have overwhelmed the Rebels, resulting in the Death Star's destruction and his own death.

[Fedel]

That's not a glaring problem though.

I was trying to be generous tbh.

[Ism]

That's not a glaring problem though.

I was trying to be generous tbh.

If so, then you failed. You were very much ungenerous in your assessment.

[Fedel]

I was trying to be generous tbh.

If so, then you failed. You were very much ungenerous in your assessment.

Lol. How? The person made the claim that the torpedo scene was unlikely, something I didn't necessarily disagree with since slightly better senses, reactions and precognition can make a world of difference in terms of accuracy and aim ( something that untrained Force user's with high potential are shown to possess ) but, because I wanted to be gracious, I gave ground on another aspect of it ( its existence which is canonically acknowledged to be an intentional design flaw ).

But when I didn't bother being polite when pointing out the flaws of the ST and Disney Canon and expressing my distaste for it, half a dozen of you reported me constantly for months on end for anything that could be considered "breaking the rules" until an account I'd had for 7 years was permanently deleted.

There's no satisfying some people.

If you want me to be nitpicky, I'll get god damn nitpicky.

The fact that it's acknowledged to be an intentional design flaw in both canon and Legends and that the Death Star II did NOT have these flaws but was produced in a far shorter span of time means that it was well within the Empire's ability to create a structure like this without such flaws, for whatever reason.

While we don't KNOW what those in universe reasons are that allow the Empire the ability to carry out this engineering feat, we know that they do exist. Put it down to a difference in technology level or super advanced AI. If you want to see it as a flaw that they don't go into detail on WHY that is, go for it. I have no horse in that race.

[The Huskar Social Union]

Palpatine should have constructed more star destroyers instead of the Deathstar II dont @ me

[Fedel]

Palpatine should have constructed more star destroyers instead of the Deathstar II dont @ me

Absolutely. And that was Thrawn's assessment as well.

The main reason Palpatine wanted the Death Star around wasn't for practical reasons though. He just wanted to increase the fear and despair across the Galaxy in order to increase the power of the Darkside and feed off people's misery like some sort of psychic vampire ( the DE endnotes go into detail on it, pretty cool stuff actually ).

[Ameriganastan]

Palpatine should have constructed more star destroyers instead of the Deathstar II dont @ me

I mean, Palpatine shouldn't have made the Death Star at all. Though I'm loathe to cite an example from Rebels, he picked a giant, immobile target over the TIE Defender program. For a guy who manipulated his way into ruling the galaxy, he made an oversight or two.

[Fedel]

Palpatine should have constructed more star destroyers instead of the Deathstar II dont @ me

I mean, Palpatine shouldn't have made the Death Star at all. Though I'm loathe to cite an example from Rebels, he picked a giant, immobile target over the TIE Defender program. For a guy who manipulated his way into ruling the galaxy, he made an oversight or two.

In Legends it was moreso that his goals were different. That's a fair assessment for canon though. Backed up by his portrayal in the ST.

[Andsed]

Palpatine should have constructed more star destroyers instead of the Deathstar II dont @ me

Absolutely. And that was Thrawn's assessment as well.

The main reason Palpatine wanted the Death Star around wasn't for practical reasons though. He just wanted to increase the fear and despair across the Galaxy in order to increase the power of the Darkside and feed off people's misery like some sort of psychic vampire ( the DE endnotes go into detail on it, pretty cool stuff actually ).

Which is why any kind of Sith led government is doomed to fail. Fuckers are way to concerned with fear and domination. That will never be a permanently sustainable form of government.

[The Huskar Social Union]

I would love to see a Sith character in a movie or show that is not batshit insane or over the top evil. I was always intrigued by the Light Side Sith in the Old Republic MMO and legends and think it would be an interesting story to tell in the new canon.

Maybe set in the aftermath of the sith jedi wars, where a light side sith tries to reform the sith into something different and ends up failing (possibly falls to the Dark Side or just ends up dying. Or tying into Darth Bane and the rule of 2)

think i mentioned this before lol

[Fedel]

Absolutely. And that was Thrawn's assessment as well.

The main reason Palpatine wanted the Death Star around wasn't for practical reasons though. He just wanted to increase the fear and despair across the Galaxy in order to increase the power of the Darkside and feed off people's misery like some sort of psychic vampire ( the DE endnotes go into detail on it, pretty cool stuff actually ).

Which is why any kind of Sith led government is doomed to fail. Fuckers are way to concerned with fear and domination. That will never be a permanently sustainable form of government.

To be fair, in the Plagueis novel, the titular characters goes into detail explaining to Sidious that he is forcing Sidious to undergo brutal training and to harness his negative emotions in order to use the Darkside as a TOOL by which they could claim dominion over the Galaxy and make it better for all.

Sidious in classic form ignored everything he said:

"If you don't already want to murder me, you will before I'm through with you," he was saying. "The urge to kill one's superior is intrinsic to the nature of our enterprise. My unassailable strength gives rise to your envy; my wisdom fuels your desire; my achievements incite your craving. Thus has it been for one thousand years, and so it must endure until I've guided you to parity. Then, Sidious, we must do our best to sabotage the dynamic Darth Bane set in motion, because we will need each other if we're to realize our ultimate goals. In the end there can be no secrets between us; no jealousy or mistrust. From us the future of the Sith will fountain, and the diverse beings of the galaxy will be better for it. Until then, however, you must strive; you must demonstrate your worthiness, not merely to me but to the dark side. You must take the hatred you feel for me and transform it into power-the power to overcome, to forbid anything from standing in your path, to surmount whatever obstacle the dark side designs to test you."

Scarcely listening, Sidious moved with utmost care, his hands and knees seeking firm purchase on the stones." - Darth Plagueis.

[Ism]

If so, then you failed. You were very much ungenerous in your assessment.

Lol. How? The person made the claim that the torpedo scene was unlikely, something I didn't necessarily disagree with since slightly better senses, reactions and precognition can make a world of difference in terms of accuracy and aim but, because I wanted to be gracious, I gave ground on another aspect of it ( its existence which is canonically acknowledged to be an intentional design flaw ).

But when I went balls to the walls debating every little point in this thread before, half a dozen of you reported me constantly for months on end for anything that could be considered "breaking the rules" until an account I'd had for 7 years was permanently deleted.

There's no satisfying some people.

If you want me to be nitpicky, I'll get god damn nitpicky.

The fact that it's acknowledged to be an intentional design flaw in both canon and Legends and that the Death Star II did NOT have these flaws but was produced in a far shorter span of time means that it was well within the Empire's ability to create a structure like this, for whatever reason.

While we don't KNOW what those in universe reasons are, we know they exist.

To my knowledge it was not an intentional design flaw in Legends. Beyond that, the fact that the Empire was able to build, to the extend that it was built, the Death Star II without this flaw was because they saw how it's presence led to the Death Star's destruction. So, whether they were retrofitting parts of the Death Star II already built or redesigning it to account for the needed change, the Death Star II was built without this critical weakness. I don't see how the Death Star II being an improvement upon the Death Star I is all that relevant though, it seems like that's to be expected really.

That being said, your tone seems to have shifted and I'm not sure why. I've never reported you, certainly, and the only thing I can think of that might have upset you is when I called your assessment ungenerous. Perhaps this came across as a personal attack, if so I apologize, I never meant to suggest you as a person were ungenerous, only that I found your view of the Death Star's exhaust port being a "glaring flaw in ANH" to be ungenerous. If that was the issue, I hope I've cleared things up.

I would love to see a Sith character in a movie or show that is not batshit insane or over the top evil. I was always intrigued by the Light Side Sith in the Old Republic MMO and legends and think it would be an interesting story to tell in the new canon.

Maybe set in the aftermath of the sith jedi wars, where a light side sith tries to reform the sith into something different and ends up failing (possibly falls to the Dark Side or just ends up dying. Or tying into Darth Bane and the rule of 2)

think i mentioned this before lol

I do agree this would be good to see. Light Side Imperials are definitely better in my view of SWTOR. Though I'm a big softie so I just go Light Side in general. I seem to recall reading an analysis of the Sith Code which postulated that by turning it inwards, that is, using it as a guide to dominate oneself a la Paarthurnax and the Way of the Voice from TES, instead of a guide to dominate other people in typical Sith fashion, it could be used as a path to the Light Side while still embracing one's emotions. If I can find it I'll link it.

[Fedel]

Lol. How? The person made the claim that the torpedo scene was unlikely, something I didn't necessarily disagree with since slightly better senses, reactions and precognition can make a world of difference in terms of accuracy and aim but, because I wanted to be gracious, I gave ground on another aspect of it ( its existence which is canonically acknowledged to be an intentional design flaw ).

But when I went balls to the walls debating every little point in this thread before, half a dozen of you reported me constantly for months on end for anything that could be considered "breaking the rules" until an account I'd had for 7 years was permanently deleted.

There's no satisfying some people.

If you want me to be nitpicky, I'll get god damn nitpicky.

The fact that it's acknowledged to be an intentional design flaw in both canon and Legends and that the Death Star II did NOT have these flaws but was produced in a far shorter span of time means that it was well within the Empire's ability to create a structure like this, for whatever reason.

While we don't KNOW what those in universe reasons are, we know they exist.

To my knowledge it was not an intentional design flaw in Legends. Beyond that, the fact that the Empire was able to build, to the extend that it was built, the Death Star II without this flaw was because they saw how it's presence led to the Death Star's destruction. So, whether they were retrofitting parts of the Death Star II already built or redesigning it to account for the needed change, the Death Star II was built without this critical weakness. I don't see how the Death Star II being an improvement upon the Death Star I is all that relevant though, it seems like that's to be expected really.

That being said, your tone seems to have shifted and I'm not sure why. I've never reported you, certainly, and the only thing I can think of that might have upset you is when I called your assessment ungenerous. Perhaps this came across as a personal attack, if so I apologize, I never meant to suggest you as a person were ungenerous, only that I found your view of the Death Star's exhaust port being a "glaring flaw in ANH" to be ungenerous. If that was the issue, I hope I've cleared things up.

In Legends, the exhaust port on the first Death Star was intentionally left in by the engineer Bevel Lemelisk, likely because he did not expect anybody to be able to make that shot past the Death Star's defenses. Obviously the Empire purging the Jedi from the records and most of the Galaxy viewing them as a myth or legend made the likelihood that the shot could be made FAR LESS likely as you didn't have people believing that pilots of "supernatural" skill existed ( even though they did ).

It's relevant because you made the claim that I was being "ungenerous" when I feel that It was extremely generous of me to suggest that the exhaust port was a "glaring weakness" because, in reality, it wasn't. I was just trying to say something in order to make the person who made the claim feel more valid because, when I haven't been as gentle with my remonstrations in the past, I've been harassed for it.

That was the issue, it was a simple misunderstanding. Sorry for reacting in that way, NationStates is a place that makes me irritable because of how the moderation operates on this site and the kind of culture it breeds.

[Ism]

To my knowledge it was not an intentional design flaw in Legends. Beyond that, the fact that the Empire was able to build, to the extend that it was built, the Death Star II without this flaw was because they saw how it's presence led to the Death Star's destruction. So, whether they were retrofitting parts of the Death Star II already built or redesigning it to account for the needed change, the Death Star II was built without this critical weakness. I don't see how the Death Star II being an improvement upon the Death Star I is all that relevant though, it seems like that's to be expected really.

That being said, your tone seems to have shifted and I'm not sure why. I've never reported you, certainly, and the only thing I can think of that might have upset you is when I called your assessment ungenerous. Perhaps this came across as a personal attack, if so I apologize, I never meant to suggest you as a person were ungenerous, only that I found your view of the Death Star's exhaust port being a "glaring flaw in ANH" to be ungenerous. If that was the issue, I hope I've cleared things up.

In Legends, the exhaust port on the first Death Star was intentionally left in by the engineer Bevel Lemelisk, likely because he did not expect anybody to be able to make that shot past the Death Star's defenses. Obviously the Empire purging the Jedi from the records and most of the Galaxy viewing them as a myth or legend made the likelihood that the shot could be made FAR LESS likely as you didn't have people believing that pilots of "supernatural" skill existed ( even though they did ).

It's relevant because you made the claim that I was being "ungenerous." It was generous of me to suggest that the exhaust port was a "glaring weakness" because, in reality, it wasn't. I was just trying to say something in order to make the person who made the claim feel more valid because, when I haven't been as gentle with my remonstrations in the past, I've been harassed for it.

I never said you did. I think I've realized what you meant though. You weren't calling my behavior towards that person ungenerous. You were saying that my assessment towards the exhaust port as a concept being a "mistake" in ANH was ungenerous." Which is very true since I was purposefully exaggerating my problems with it as a concept in order to appease someone else.

I see now, I misunderstood you, and that led to you misunderstanding me. Regrettable, but I'm glad we could work it out.

As for Lemelisk, I understand your reasoning, though I wouldn't agree. I would say that an intentional design flaw has to come with malicious intent, as Galen Erso has, since he outright wants the Death Star to be destroyed. Lemelisk's seems not malicious towards the Death Star but negligent; he neglects to address the flaw for one reason or another, but not because he wants the Death Star to fail.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

NS needs a dark mode. I've been on this screen for two days and my eyes are stabbing.

NS does have one. Go to your settings, and change the theme to dark. It works on the forums too!

Ah i must have missed it when fliping thru my setings. Thanks, I turned it on now.

I think there was some miscommunication going on here. I never said that they got the resources from one planet, rather ever sense Return Of The Jedi they have been hording materials by stealing from everywhere and everywhere they could. Building a 10,000 strong fleet over 30 years using automated construction droids, scraped dead Star destroyers from the Empire and re-fiting them to have the big cannon.

And how would they realistically accomplish this "accumulation of resources" without giving away Exegol's location?

They literally accumulated enough materials that they created a fleet of capital ships larger than any that had ever existed up to that point.

It doesn't seem like this should be possible given Palpatine was unable to replicate this accomplishment with an entire GALAXY'S resources at his disposal yet only has control of a single barren planet during the post OT era whilst having to maintain the secrecy of the planet's existence.

That links back to an earlier point I made, the first order was makeing so much noise that it would cover up raids on scrap yards. That and no one would know where to look for it beacuse they don't have a wayfinder.

[Saiwania]

So we're getting an animated show focusing on the Bad Batch squad.

It has the potential to maybe be good, depending on how it is done. It could go badly but it doesn't necessarily have to. People might like it. The bad batch clones have positive as opposed to negative defects, so they have specialist talents that the regular clones don't that is suited towards special ops and unique raids and that sort of thing. That alone might lend itself to good scenarios that can make great episodes.

Such a team is a great asset to any military. Essentially the opposite of Clone 99, who had negative handicaps that limited him to janitor work for the most part.

[Andsed]

And how would they realistically accomplish this "accumulation of resources" without giving away Exegol's location?

They literally accumulated enough materials that they created a fleet of capital ships larger than any that had ever existed up to that point.

It doesn't seem like this should be possible given Palpatine was unable to replicate this accomplishment with an entire GALAXY'S resources at his disposal yet only has control of a single barren planet during the post OT era whilst having to maintain the secrecy of the planet's existence.

That links back to an earlier point I made, the first order was makeing so much noise that it would cover up raids on scrap yards. That and no one would know where to look for it beacuse they don't have a wayfinder.

That still falls apart when you consider the sheer amount of materials they would need to steal. They built one of largest fleets in galactic history. They would need to be raiding major shipyards, something that would be very difficult and attract a lot of attention. And even if they managed to pull of such an blatantly impossible feat, they would still need to build the ships. Which with no major production centers like shipyards and a very small likely untrained workforce is just out of the question.

[Fedel]

In Legends, the exhaust port on the first Death Star was intentionally left in by the engineer Bevel Lemelisk, likely because he did not expect anybody to be able to make that shot past the Death Star's defenses. Obviously the Empire purging the Jedi from the records and most of the Galaxy viewing them as a myth or legend made the likelihood that the shot could be made FAR LESS likely as you didn't have people believing that pilots of "supernatural" skill existed ( even though they did ).

It's relevant because you made the claim that I was being "ungenerous." It was generous of me to suggest that the exhaust port was a "glaring weakness" because, in reality, it wasn't. I was just trying to say something in order to make the person who made the claim feel more valid because, when I haven't been as gentle with my remonstrations in the past, I've been harassed for it.

I never said you did. I think I've realized what you meant though. You weren't calling my behavior towards that person ungenerous. You were saying that my assessment towards the exhaust port as a concept being a "mistake" in ANH was ungenerous." Which is very true since I was purposefully exaggerating my problems with it as a concept in order to appease someone else.

I see now, I misunderstood you, and that led to you misunderstanding me. Regrettable, but I'm glad we could work it out.

As for Lemelisk, I understand your reasoning, though I wouldn't agree. I would say that an intentional design flaw has to come with malicious intent, as Galen Erso has, since he outright wants the Death Star to be destroyed. Lemelisk's seems not malicious towards the Death Star but negligent; he neglects to address the flaw for one reason or another, but not because he wants the Death Star to fail.

Agreed.

Well, it's a a part of the design he didn't consider a flaw but it can be considered one. Whether or not you do is what determines its status as an "intentional design flaw."

[New haven america]

I would love to see a Sith character in a movie or show that is not batshit insane or over the top evil. I was always intrigued by the Light Side Sith in the Old Republic MMO and legends and think it would be an interesting story to tell in the new canon.

Maybe set in the aftermath of the sith jedi wars, where a light side sith tries to reform the sith into something different and ends up failing (possibly falls to the Dark Side or just ends up dying. Or tying into Darth Bane and the rule of 2)

think i mentioned this before lol

Technically speaking Plagueis wasn't totally evil in the old canon.

Yes he was a Sith and even worse, a banker, but compared to most other Sith he didn't really care about galactic control or power, he was more focused on science/force alchemy, with the evil stuff being a result of his research that he was more apathetic about than anything.

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

That links back to an earlier point I made, the first order was makeing so much noise that it would cover up raids on scrap yards. That and no one would know where to look for it beacuse they don't have a wayfinder.

That still falls apart when you consider the sheer amount of materials they would need to steal. They built one of largest fleets in galactic history. They would need to be raiding major shipyards, something that would be very difficult and attract a lot of attention. And even if they managed to pull of such an blatantly impossible feat, they would still need to build the ships. Which with no major production centers like shipyards and a very small likely untrained workforce is just out of the question.

Yeah but again that is spread out over 30 years. You take your time and raid when there guard is down and in a place you haven't hit in a while. Combine that with automated ship building construction and droids with that amount of time and yeah you could do it.

[Andsed]

That still falls apart when you consider the sheer amount of materials they would need to steal. They built one of largest fleets in galactic history. They would need to be raiding major shipyards, something that would be very difficult and attract a lot of attention. And even if they managed to pull of such an blatantly impossible feat, they would still need to build the ships. Which with no major production centers like shipyards and a very small likely untrained workforce is just out of the question.

Yeah but again that is spread out over 30 years. You take your time and raid when there guard is down and in a place you haven't hit in a while. Combine that with automated ship building construction and droids with that amount of time and yeah you could do it.

No not really. At most one could maybe build a few dozen ships, maybe a couple hundred if you really stretch suspension of disbelief. 10,000? Totally out of the question. Building ships takes time and effort and again, requires things like shipyards and factories to do so. Especially large capital ships. Only a handful of planets (like for example Coruscant with it´s trillions of people) could even hope to pull off such a feat. A single isolated planet with no real production centers and tiny population? Utterly laughable.

Do you really think that some barren planet in the middle of nowhere could build a larger fleet than planets renowned for their ship building with actual accesses to a work force and resources (like Mon Cala)? Give me a break.

[Ovesa]

Guys, I just found out that there's going to be a Bad Batch series in 2021, and it'll be directed by Dave Filoni!

Personally, I'm really excited to have more clone-related content, especially with a group of characters that has so much potential to grow and develop. It'll be interesting to get a closer look at how the members of Clone Force 99 interact with each other and the rest of the galaxy.

What are your guys's thoughts?

[Genivaria]

Palpatine should have constructed more star destroyers instead of the Deathstar II dont @ me

That's just because you play HOI4 and Palpatine plays Egomaniac Simulator 2000.

[Idzequitch]

I see what you did there, twice.

Getting a proton torpedo in a two meter wide ventilation shaft could also be considered unlikely
You have a point, I just wanted to mention that Ezra's space whale plan was at least a bit foreshadowed. And Lando does probably know a lot of people, though they might not all come to help.

"It's not impossible. I used to bullseye womp rats in my T-16 back home, they're not much bigger than two meters." - Luke Skywalker.

:>

But yeah, I agree prior to Rogue One addressing that inconsistency, the exhaust existing in the first place is a glaring problem with ANH.

IIRC, Star Wars: Death Star (The EU novel) attributed that weakness to sabotage.

[Vassenor]

I see what you did there, twice.

Getting a proton torpedo in a two meter wide ventilation shaft could also be considered unlikely
You have a point, I just wanted to mention that Ezra's space whale plan was at least a bit foreshadowed. And Lando does probably know a lot of people, though they might not all come to help.

"It's not impossible. I used to bullseye womp rats in my T-16 back home, they're not much bigger than two meters." - Luke Skywalker.

:>

But yeah, I agree prior to Rogue One addressing that inconsistency, the exhaust existing in the first place is a glaring problem with ANH.

I mean it's really not when you stop to think about it.