Star Wars: The Force Shall Free Us All

[The first Galactic Republic]

Apparently Wookieepedia’s article on Sha’a Gi is one of its most popular right now.

I get the feeling there’s a meme behind this.

...Who?

He’s basically Shaggy. He was in the 2003 cartoon for an episode.

[Fedel]

Did you really write an essay to me because I paraphrased one of your statements?

The reason I formatted it in the way I did was because not long after making the statement about how you thought Rey was a great character you make this comment:

"I was going to explain to y'all what Rey's arc is and snidely dismiss the idea that any of you know jack shit about this stuff. But I've got a better idea:"

Now you're probably going to say that this was in response to the posts that you deemed "low effort criticisms" ( edit: after skimming your post I see that's EXACTLY what you did ) but I posit that you brought it up in the first place KNOWING the kind of responses you'd get in order to start another row on the subject.

I also didn't say Rey was a great character (though obviously I do think she is). I said she was cute, and that TLJ hit its character beats hard. If you don't care to read my posts, why do you keep responding to me? If you don't like me, put me on ignore.

If I'm having to write at length, it's because you're not taking the care to respond to what I'm actually saying, so I'm having to go back and restate stuff I've already said. It's the old issue that it takes ten times as much effort to refute bullshit as to produce it.

I don't ignore things I don't like unfortunately for you. I face them head on in order to curb influences I find malignant. I suspect you don't ignore those you disagree with for the same reason. Also, I hardly think it's unreasonable to say that your claim that "TLJ hit its character beats HARD" is a similar statement to "Rey is a good character" especially when you've espoused that view in the past.

Since you're familiar with that concept, you should realize why people in this thread abhor conversing with you.

[Ameriganastan]

...Who?

He’s basically Shaggy. He was in the 2003 cartoon for an episode.

...He had a name? I just called him "Squished by Grievous Guy".

[Platypus Bureaucracy]

You misrepresented the course of events to suggest that I started this. I didn't. I also didn't say Rey was a great character (though obviously I do think she is). I said she was cute, and that TLJ hit its character beats hard. If you don't care to read my posts, why do you keep responding to me? If you don't like me, put me on ignore.

If I'm having to write at length, it's because you're not taking the care to respond to what I'm actually saying, so I'm having to go back and restate stuff I've already said. It's the old issue that it takes ten times as much effort to refute bullshit as to produce it.

I don't ignore thinks I don't like unfortunately for you. I face them head on in order to curb influences I find malignant. I suspect you don't ignore those you disagree with for the same reason.

Since you're familiar with that concept, you should realize why people in this thread abhor conversing with you.

Well, point out my bullshit. You've spent a lot of time attacking me here, but you've been curiously quiet about Rey's arc, which is the point on which I challenged people to demonstrate their understanding. Ism has, for better or worse, attempted to meet that challenge. I've even agreed with him, broadly, on his issues with TFA.

You're very upset about my malignant influence. You get terribly offended when I praise a film. Yet you have no interest in my analysis. You'll forgive me if I conclude that this is because you don't feel able to. It's clearly not for want of time.

[Fedel]

I don't ignore thinks I don't like unfortunately for you. I face them head on in order to curb influences I find malignant. I suspect you don't ignore those you disagree with for the same reason.

Since you're familiar with that concept, you should realize why people in this thread abhor conversing with you.

Well, point out my bullshit. You've spent a lot of time attacking me here, but you've been curiously quiet about Rey's arc, which is the point on which I challenged people to demonstrate their understanding. Ism has, for better or worse, attempted to meet that challenge. I've even agreed with him, broadly, on his issues with TFA.

You're very upset about my malignant influence. You get terribly offended when I praise a film. Yet you have no interest in my analysis. You'll forgive me if I conclude that this is because you don't feel able to. It's clearly not for want of time.

I've already had this debate with you and others countless times in this very thread. I don't see the need to go throug another rendition ( though I will if you insist ).

I don't have any interest in your "analysis" because it's built upon assumptions, fallacies and subjective opinions. I know this because I've engaged with you on this very subject in the past. You can think what you want though.

[Northern Davincia]

Too bad the ST hasn't managed to do that.

See, this is the essence of what I'm talking about. Short, meaningless assertions that it's bad.

And this:

Except TFA and TLJ do all those things terribly.

And this:

As soon as she becomes a perfectly fine main character.

And this:

To you, maybe. To the rest of us, she is lacking.

None of you want to actually expand on these "points" (except, of course, to talk about worldbuilding and Force powers) and on the rare occasions you do, you talk a bunch of nonsense that showcases the extent of your ignorance and, very often, hypocrisy.

It's like a thread populated entirely by Vassenor clones.

If I try to talk to any of you about Rey's arc--even if I straight up quote the movie--you'll just claim it doesn't exist then pivot away to moan about how she lifted too many rocks or some nonsense. You want to circlejerk about how bad the films are without doing any of the work required to demonstrate that your opinions are informed opinions.

My biggest issue with Rey is that her personality doesn't change from TFA to TLJ.
Her arc is ultimately "I am strong" to "I am stronger" thus far.

[Dylar]

He’s basically Shaggy. He was in the 2003 cartoon for an episode.

...He had a name? I just called him "Squished by Grievous Guy".

They gave him a name years later

[Uinted Communist of Africa]

...He had a name? I just called him "Squished by Grievous Guy".

They gave him a name years later

They gave him a name??!?
What did he survive it?
Is he in a spin off series i dont have yet?

[Valrifell]

He’s basically Shaggy. He was in the 2003 cartoon for an episode.

...He had a name? I just called him "Squished by Grievous Guy".

Star Wars is so lost in its own massive amount of worldbuilding that if they've been shown on screen, not only do they have a name but probably at least one EU story.

[Platypus Bureaucracy]

See, this is the essence of what I'm talking about. Short, meaningless assertions that it's bad.

And this:

And this:

And this:

None of you want to actually expand on these "points" (except, of course, to talk about worldbuilding and Force powers) and on the rare occasions you do, you talk a bunch of nonsense that showcases the extent of your ignorance and, very often, hypocrisy.

It's like a thread populated entirely by Vassenor clones.

If I try to talk to any of you about Rey's arc--even if I straight up quote the movie--you'll just claim it doesn't exist then pivot away to moan about how she lifted too many rocks or some nonsense. You want to circlejerk about how bad the films are without doing any of the work required to demonstrate that your opinions are informed opinions.

My biggest issue with Rey is that her personality doesn't change from TFA to TLJ.
Her arc is ultimately "I am strong" to "I am stronger" thus far.

I think this is another case of getting distracted by the worldbuilding. Yes, Rey gets stronger in the Force, but she also went through that self-esteem arc I outlined. Unless you mean "stronger" in a more general emotional sense, but that would describe virtually all non-tragic arcs, so you couldn't possibly object to that unless you object to fiction in general.

This is the sort of thing I find so incredibly confusing. Best case scenario, you can't see a critical part of the film. Worst case, you have a wildly unorthodox approach to understanding fiction.

Well, point out my bullshit. You've spent a lot of time attacking me here, but you've been curiously quiet about Rey's arc, which is the point on which I challenged people to demonstrate their understanding. Ism has, for better or worse, attempted to meet that challenge. I've even agreed with him, broadly, on his issues with TFA.

You're very upset about my malignant influence. You get terribly offended when I praise a film. Yet you have no interest in my analysis. You'll forgive me if I conclude that this is because you don't feel able to. It's clearly not for want of time.

I've already had this debate with you and others countless times in this very thread. I don't see the need to go throug another rendition ( though I will if you insist ).

I don't have any interest in your "analysis" because it's built upon assumptions, fallacies and subjective opinions. I know this because I've engaged with you on this very subject in the past. You can think what you want though.

What does this even mean? What the hell would a fallacy even look like in there? What assumptions are in there (beyond those that are essential to all criticism)? Which subjective opinions do you disagree with, and what alternative interpretation would you offer? What's with the sneer quotes around "analysis"? Have you even read it? Why are you even still talking to me at this point?

Either join in or go home. I don't care which you do, as long as you stop shouting from the sidelines.

[Fedel]

Assumptions and Subjectivity

Example: What you believe Rey was thinking or feeling in a scene based on surrounding events.

YOUR HYPOTHETICAL ARGUMENT might be something along the lines of:

"Because event A occurred it makes it a reasonable assumption that Rey was feeling emotion A because of her pre-established worldview. This is evidenced by her facial twitches in a scene."

The assumption here is that because event A happened it would have reasonably triggered emotion A based on prior information about her and that you believe there is evidence within the scene itself to suggest this.

MY HYPOTHETICAL RESPONSES might be something along the lines of:

While it makes sense for Rey to feel emotion A if event A occurs and her worldview is as depicted, I have a problem with her worldview being as it is given her circumstances and background ( a problem with the setup rather then the outcome/execution ).

OR

I do not believe the facial twitches that occurred in the scene indicate that she is feeling emotion A. ( A disagreement based in subjectivity/assumption about what a certain action in the movie means in terms of the character's mindset. I.E. Yours that the facial twitch meant one thing and mine that it meant another ).

OR

I do not believe it makes sense for Rey to react in the way that she does based on her previously established world view. ( A disagreement based in subjectivity/assumption where we both believe two separate ways for Rey to act to be the most reasonable based off the character's previously established worldview ).

Fallacies

A few fallacies I've encountered from you are your attempts to strawman me or bring up false equivalencies for certain characters and situations. More generally I've noticed that you intend to engage in bad faith practices such as baiting and engaging in double standards.

---

As for the rest of your post, I've read your takes on the new movies and I'm still talking to you for the aforementioned reasons I've already given.

[Fedel]

Note: I never said assumptions and subjectivity were bad things. We all do it to some extent. It just makes these things pointless to discuss.

[Pax Nerdvana]

...He had a name? I just called him "Squished by Grievous Guy".

Star Wars is so lost in its own massive amount of worldbuilding that if they've been shown on screen, not only do they have a name but probably at least one EU story.

Star Wars in a nutshell.

[Uinted Communist of Africa]

Star Wars is so lost in its own massive amount of worldbuilding that if they've been shown on screen, not only do they have a name but probably at least one EU story.

Star Wars in a nutshell.

I thought starwars summed up was
'CALM DOWN ANAKIN'
and then
'GOD DAMNIT LUKE DONT BE AN IDIOT'
and now
'GIRL POWER'

[Ameriganastan]

...He had a name? I just called him "Squished by Grievous Guy".

Star Wars is so lost in its own massive amount of worldbuilding that if they've been shown on screen, not only do they have a name but probably at least one EU story.

Let's test this claim. How about...that weird looking guy from ROTJ. Had an eyepatch and a big head. Made a great Robot Chicken sketch.

[Alvecia]

Star Wars is so lost in its own massive amount of worldbuilding that if they've been shown on screen, not only do they have a name but probably at least one EU story.

Let's test this claim. How about...that weird looking guy from ROTJ. Had an eyepatch and a big head. Made a great Robot Chicken sketch.

Orrimaarko

[Ameriganastan]

Let's test this claim. How about...that weird looking guy from ROTJ. Had an eyepatch and a big head. Made a great Robot Chicken sketch.

Orrimaarko

...Well, there it is.

[New haven america]

Just do what i do.

"I like this thing"
"I dont like this thing"
"K"

I strongly approve of this method. There's a reason I don't criticise Huskar in this thread, even when he says things I disagree with, and it's not just because I like him. He doesn't try to frame his personal feelings on a film as fact.

We get it, you like a shitty movie, move on already!

You know, that's not a bad thing, I unironically like Episode III and don't mind Episode I (It's not good, but it's not horrible either), but I still acknowledge that they're pretty bad and have no problem making fun of them while pointing out both the good and bad parts. It's ok to like something that's not good, you don't need to defend TLJ as if it's a beached whale that'll die if it doesn't have praise upon heaped continually.

I'm not the one who started bitching about how bad Rey was.

Note how I didn't frame most of my post around my opinion. I was talking about the arc. The real problem here is people who had a negative emotional reaction to the film deciding that means it must be bad (to the point that those people *ahem!* think they can just assert it's bad because [--insert movie jargon here--] without actually making the argument).

I really didn't enjoy Phantom Thread, but I wouldn't dare to insist that it's a bad movie just because I personally had a bad time watching it. On reflection, in fact, I think it is probably a very good movie, and if I had the willpower to put myself through watching it again, I expect I would probably be able to make a strong argument for that, even though I will probably never like that film.

I quite like parts of Rogue One, even though I think it's very mediocre. But there are films I like that I think are good. TLJ is one of them. Imagine if I told you to just admit that, I don't know, Toy Story is a bad movie. You'd probably think I was mad.

I seems that my argument has fallen upon deaf ears, for the 100th or so time.

[The Huskar Social Union]

Gimme a fucking trailer already damn you

[New haven america]

S3E2:

So, this is part three of a trilogy about these clones that goes S3E1-->S1E5-->S3E2.

This is bonkers. Dave Filoni is the guy lots of fans say should be in charge of Lucasfilm's creative direction, right? Are they crazy, or does he get his shit together at some point?

Good episode, at least on the clones' side of things. Bit predictable with 99, though.

The clones are now ARC troopers. Based on my experience with the old battlefront, I understand this means they'll fill one of two possible battlefield roles:

1. Fire their rocket launcher, miss, and then get shot dead during the four-hour long reloading process
2. Fire their rocket launcher, miss, switch to a shitty little pistol and then get shot dead because their enemy has a rifle

RIP Fives and Echo. Taken too soon.

If you haven't figured it out yet, TCW's an anthology series.

Also, there's a reason for the wonkiness, and that's because they didn't have much funding/money at the start of the series, so they had to make the easier to make episodes first and have the harder to make episode later.

[New haven america]

Gimme a fucking trailer already damn you

The more you ask, the less trailer you're going to get.

[Ism]

Gimme a fucking trailer already damn you

Here you go Huskar.

[The Huskar Social Union]

Gimme a fucking trailer already damn you

Here you go Huskar.

Gimme a fucking trailer already damn you

The more you ask, the less trailer you're going to get.

"Some cunt on the internet wants the trailer lord Mickey!"
"Put it back another month ha ha!"

[Ism]

Here you go Huskar.

The more you ask, the less trailer you're going to get.

"Some cunt on the internet wants the trailer lord Mickey!"
"Put it back another month ha ha!"

[Northern Davincia]

My biggest issue with Rey is that her personality doesn't change from TFA to TLJ.
Her arc is ultimately "I am strong" to "I am stronger" thus far.

I think this is another case of getting distracted by the worldbuilding. Yes, Rey gets stronger in the Force, but she also went through that self-esteem arc I outlined. Unless you mean "stronger" in a more general emotional sense, but that would describe virtually all non-tragic arcs, so you couldn't possibly object to that unless you object to fiction in general.

This is the sort of thing I find so incredibly confusing. Best case scenario, you can't see a critical part of the film. Worst case, you have a wildly unorthodox approach to understanding fiction.

You don't need a tragic arc to have character flaws that initially make a character weak. When I refer to her strength, I am speaking of a quality independent of worldbuilding.
Han Solo is physically adept as a character, but his own arrogance holds him back. It takes time to get over. Tell me, what flaws does Rey have as a person? Emotionally, she's strong from the get-go.