But It Was So Artistically Done: THE STAR WARS THREAD

[Genivaria]

You realize that the Galactic Empire had millions if not billions of slave laborers, right?

What do you think built the Death Star?

If I had to guess I'd say droids and other machines, maintained by a relatively small number of engineers.

Droids were involved yes, but so were many slaves.

The construction of the Death Star continued for several years above Geonosis in utmost secrecy, under Admiral Wilhuff Tarkin's supervision.[9] The Empire utilized construction modules[29] operated by Wookiee slave laborers and various other species to complete the project.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Death_St ... nstruction

[Genivaria]

You realize that the Galactic Empire had millions if not billions of slave laborers, right?

What do you think built the Death Star?

Those that brought the galaxy to war, and those that seek to bring the galaxy to war, utterly deserve their circumstances. Far better for them to make a positive contribution of some kind to the galaxy rather than be free to bring chaos and violence wherever they go.

Taking children away from their homes, brainwashing them and pressing them as soldiers - what the Jedi did before and what the First Order does now - is wrong. Forcing separatists and rebels - people that voluntarily engage in violent, anti-galactic activities - to contribute to the galaxy is not; they chose their fate, and must suffer the consequences for their lack of vision.

You...do understand there's a difference between individual rebels and an entire civilian population of a planet right?

[Anywhere Else But Here]

If I had to guess I'd say droids and other machines, maintained by a relatively small number of engineers.

Droids were involved yes, but so were many slaves.

The construction of the Death Star continued for several years above Geonosis in utmost secrecy, under Admiral Wilhuff Tarkin's supervision.[9] The Empire utilized construction modules[29] operated by Wookiee slave laborers and various other species to complete the project.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Death_St ... nstruction

Frankly, the empire deserved to lose. Using slaves has got to be more costly, even before you consider revolts, escape attempts, and the fact that wookiees are presumably twice as strong as whoever's overseeing them.

[Genivaria]

Droids were involved yes, but so were many slaves.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Death_St ... nstruction

Frankly, the empire deserved to lose. Using slaves has got to be more costly, even before you consider revolts, escape attempts, and the fact that wookiees are presumably twice as strong as whoever's overseeing them.

Enslaved manual labor seems both horribly immoral and impractical.
Like evil just for the sake of being evil.

This is not how you create loyal Imperial Citizens!

[Nocturnalis]

You...do understand there's a difference between individual rebels and an entire civilian population of a planet right?

The difference means little when it is entire planets, like Kashyyyk and Alderaan, that openly foment rebellion in the galaxy. "Individual rebels" tend to get their just punishment on the battlefields, while the systems supporting them must repay galactic society for their transgressions against peace and stability.

Enslaved manual labor seems both horribly immoral and impractical.
Like evil just for the sake of being evil.

This is not how you create loyal Imperial Citizens!

Those pressed into labour were rebels and separatists, not Imperial citizens.

[Genivaria]

You...do understand there's a difference between individual rebels and an entire civilian population of a planet right?

The difference means little when it is entire planets, like Kashyyyk and Alderaan, that openly foment rebellion in the galaxy. "Individual rebels" tend to get their just punishment on the battlefields, while the systems supporting them must repay galactic society for their transgressions against peace and stability.

Enslaved manual labor seems both horribly immoral and impractical.
Like evil just for the sake of being evil.

This is not how you create loyal Imperial Citizens!

Those pressed into labour were rebels and separatists, not Imperial citizens.

I mean if we're just making up facts than sure.

[Anywhere Else But Here]

Frankly, the empire deserved to lose. Using slaves has got to be more costly, even before you consider revolts, escape attempts, and the fact that wookiees are presumably twice as strong as whoever's overseeing them.

Enslaved manual labor seems both horribly immoral and impractical.
Like evil just for the sake of being evil.

This is not how you create loyal Imperial Citizens!

I imagine it's a case of a writer looking for an easy shorthand for "these are the baddies", as if we needed convincing.

[Northern Davincia]

Daily reminder that the Separatists did nothing wrong.

well, it is true that they did have a point. ignoring the minor detail that they were controlled by the same guy who ran the republic and were nothing but a front, fact remains they were the absolute "good guys" in that war.

Now, had the Separatists not been manipulated by Sidious, they would undoubtedly have the moral high ground above the Republic.

[Genivaria]

well, it is true that they did have a point. ignoring the minor detail that they were controlled by the same guy who ran the republic and were nothing but a front, fact remains they were the absolute "good guys" in that war.

Now, had the Separatists not been manipulated by Sidious, they would undoubtedly have the moral high ground above the Republic.

Excluding the war crimes which were mostly done by the Sith, with a few exceptions.

[Northern Davincia]

Now, had the Separatists not been manipulated by Sidious, they would undoubtedly have the moral high ground above the Republic.

Excluding the war crimes which were mostly done by the Sith, with a few exceptions.

Dooku seemed to only carry out war crimes with the understanding that he was siding with the underdogs of the fight. Unlike Palpatine, the Separatists focused on tactics rather than fear factor.

[Nocturnalis]

I mean if we're just making up facts than sure.

Nothing I said is made up.

From day one of the New Order, the Wookiees openly defied the Emperor's will and sided with the Jedi traitors. When news of the Jedi's betrayal and attempted coup broke out, the Wookiees did not side with the Republic, nor with the troopers that had fought and died to protect them from the Separatists, but with the Jed, the ones who started the whole conflict to begin with.

Although the Royal House of Alderaan attempted to keep their support for the Rebellion a secret, it was widely known that both the Alderaanian Royalty and Alderaan's population more generally were supportive of the Rebellion. The Alderaanians provided munitions and ships to the rebels on Lothal under the guise of 'humanitarian assistance', and continued to be the Rebellion's primary source of munitions, ships, and personnel until the planet's destruction. In particular, Alderaan's Senator Leia Organa cultivated a reputation for abusing her privileges as member of the Imperial Senate to undertake secret missions for the Rebellion, the most costly of which ended with the destruction of Tarkin's battlestation, and with it thousands of Imperial lives.

[Genivaria]

I mean if we're just making up facts than sure.

Nothing I said is made up.

From day one of the New Order, the Wookiees openly defied the Emperor's will and sided with the Jedi traitors. When news of the Jedi's betrayal and attempted coup broke out, the Wookiees did not side with the Republic, nor with the troopers that had fought and died to protect them from the Separatists, but with the Jed, the ones who started the whole conflict to begin with.

Although the Royal House of Alderaan attempted to keep their support for the Rebellion a secret, it was widely known that both the Alderaanian Royalty and Alderaan's population more generally were supportive of the Rebellion. The Alderaanians provided munitions and ships to the rebels on Lothal under the guise of 'humanitarian assistance', and continued to be the Rebellion's primary source of munitions, ships, and personnel until the planet's destruction. In particular, Alderaan's Senator Leia Organa cultivated a reputation for abusing her privileges as member of the Imperial Senate to undertake secret missions for the Rebellion, the most costly of which ended with the destruction of Tarkin's battlestation, and with it thousands of Imperial lives.

And right from the start you embrace lies, nice.
You do know that you are spouting propaganda right? Fictional propaganda at that.

My take was that the Empire should've acted in a less Stupid Evil Space Nazis fashion if they didn't want rebels rising up, to which you start providing apologetics for Stupid Evil Space Nazis and how dare people stand up against their genocidal oppressors?

[Nocturnalis]

You do know that you are spouting propaganda right? Fictional propaganda at that.

The Jedi attempted to overthrow the democratically elected Chancellor without the Senate's approval. They alleged that Palpatine was a Sith Lord, but that's neither illegal nor grounds to remove the Chancellor from his position. There were procedures in place to ensure the legal abdication of a Supreme Chancellor and a peaceful transition o

[Genivaria]

You do know that you are spouting propaganda right? Fictional propaganda at that.

The Jedi attempted to overthrow the democratically elected Chancellor without the Senate's approval. They alleged that Palpatine was a Sith Lord, but that's neither illegal nor grounds to remove the Chancellor from his position. There were procedures in place to ensure the legal abdication of a Supreme Chancellor and a peaceful transition o

f power, but the Jedi did not bother with such trivialities.

[Nocturnalis]

....You've seen the films right?
I mean this isn't speculation this is the fucking script.

Yes, yes I have. I seem to recall the Senate giving Palps emergency powers in Episode II, powers that had not yet been abated by Episode III. Even so, the Senate continued to recognize Palpatine as the democratically elected leader of the Republic.

"The Senate demanded that he [Chancellor Palpatine] stay longer." -Anakin Skywalker, Episode III.

You know what IS grounds? Treason against the Republic for helping to establish a rogue state and plunge the galaxy into civil war.

(Yeah but the galaxy-at-large did not know that, and those that did were either part of the Empire (Palps himself and Vader) or those that had just attempted to overthrow the Chancellor (the Jedi)).

[Genivaria]

....You've seen the films right?
I mean this isn't speculation this is the fucking script.

Yes, yes I have. I seem to recall the Senate giving Palps emergency powers in Episode II, powers that had not yet been abated by Episode III. Even so, the Senate continued to recognize Palpatine as the democratically elected leader of the Republic.

"The Senate demanded that he [Chancellor Palpatine] stay longer." -Anakin Skywalker, Episode III.

You know what IS grounds? Treason against the Republic for helping to establish a rogue state and plunge the galaxy into civil war.

(Yeah but the galaxy-at-large did not know that, and those that did were either part of the Empire (Palps himself and Vader) or those that had just attempted to overthrow the Chancellor (the Jedi)).

Not sure how that invalidates their charge.

[Nocturnalis]

Not sure how that invalidates their charge.

They did not bring the matter to the attention of the proper authorities (that is, the Senate). I know, "he has control of the Senate and the courts" yaddayaddayadda, but you cannot expect support from the galaxy if it seems as if you're plotting to overthrow the rightful government for reasons you don't actually tell anyone. Chancellor Palpatine had just spent the past three years before Episode III being the guy that basically saved the Republic from destruction (even if, yes, he ultimately engineered the conflict), then the Jedi come in and try to overthrow him? Should one really be surprised that the galaxy turned on the Jedi so quickly?

[Alekseandrea]

They literally couldn’t have done that without Poe Dameron.

If that guy wasn’t insubordinate scum, the first order wouldn’t have destroyed so many transports.

If Poe had trusted his superior,
The resistance would have gotten a good chance of escaping with all transports intact, without having to defend against a ground assault. And Luke wouldn’t have had to sacrifice himself to buy time.

And the reason he isn’t executed on the spot or arrested: They “like” him.
Good thing that the rebellion maintains the time–honored traditions of nepotism.

Episode 8: Dameron ruins everything. And nobody calls him out on it.

Holdo is singlehandedly responsible for all the Resistance lives lost. As the commanding officer for most of the film, it is her responsibility to not only command the ship and its crew, but to maintain the confidence of her crew. Instead, she just shows up out of nowhere looking like she's late to cocktail party instead of a Resistance leader and automatically expects everyone to follow her, a perfect example of piss-poor leadership that gets 90% of the remaining Resistance killed.

As commander, she has two duties: to have a plan and to keep the morale of her forces up. She ostensibly failed on both accounts; although she had a plan, she told basically no one beyond a select few about it, not even the leader of the Resistance's few remaining starfighter pilots. Without a plan, how can she expect the remaining Resistance forces to fight for her at all? Why should they fight for someone who's plan appears to be to just get everyone killed? The mutiny against her included pilots, troopers, and even command crew, so it's very clear that Holdo was incapable of maintaining the confidence of her forces. Poe's plan may have led to the First Order discovering the transports, but only because Holdo was an extremely poor leader (and because Finn picked up the wrong guy). Her refusal to let the rank soldiers know of her plan, regardless of how brilliant it was, is what causes most of the Resistance to perish. The best thing she does in the film is die to protect the remaining transports, and it took her forever to even figure out how to do that. If Holdo wasn't a complete idiot, the FO wouldn't have destroyed so many transports.

I dissagree.

Holdo was competent.

The morale was already ruined and beyond recovery for the duration of the movie.
When you're screwed and everyone knows you are, only a fool would waste time and energy on boosting the morale. Finding a way out should be the top priority.
It was Holdo's top priority.

Holdo was the next in the chain of command. SO OF COURSE everyone was expected to obey her.
Disobeying because she dresses wrong is no valid reason for insubordination.

The handing information out on a need-to-know basis. Is justified. An admiral doesn't have the time to explain everything to explain everything to random resistance members who come storming on the bridge.

It also prevents deserters from ratting out the plan to the first order. Since they don't know it. And when you need personel on catch-deserters duty, plans leaking is very likely.

Poe didn't need to know. There were no fighters left. The fighters and Poe weren't involved in the plan. And he was recently demoted.

Holdo's plan was solid AND would have worked if Poe hadn't interfered.
Thanks to Poe vital information was leaked to the first order.

Poe hardly had a plan. It was an improvised failure.
His plan required loads of luck. They weren't lucky. His plan was too reliant on dumb luck.

While Holdo is responsible, Poe is the one who f*cked up. His insubordination made a bad situation worse. All because he didn't trust Leia to pick her vice-admiral wisely and because he wanted to play the hero.

He ignored the chain of command, questioned Leia's, his superior, judgement twice (The retreat and Holdo's appointment), is guilty of insubordination AND to add insult to injury, his plan not only failed, but ruined the main plan.

THAT is the description if a person that you execute as an example to the men. Normally I find executing your men distasteful, but if Poe Dameron was under my command I'd gladly make an exception.

[Nocturnalis]

I dissagree.

Holdo was competent.

The morale was already ruined and beyond recovery for the duration of the movie.
When you're screwed and everyone knows you are, only a fool would waste time and energy on boosting the morale. Finding a way out should be the top priority.
It was Holdo's top priority.

Holdo was the next in the chain of command. SO OF COURSE everyone was expected to obey her.
Disobeying because she dresses wrong is no valid reason for insubordination.

The handing information out on a need-to-know basis. Is justified. An admiral doesn't have the time to explain everything to explain everything to random resistance members who come storming on the bridge.

It also prevents deserters from ratting out the plan to the first order. Since they don't know it. And when you need personel on catch-deserters duty, plans leaking is very likely.

Poe didn't need to know. There were no fighters left. The fighters and Poe weren't involved in the plan. And he was recently demoted.

Holdo's plan was solid AND would have worked if Poe hadn't interfered.
Thanks to Poe vital information was leaked to the first order.

Poe hardly had a plan. It was an improvised failure.
His plan required loads of luck. They weren't lucky. His plan was too reliant on dumb luck.

While Holdo is responsible, Poe is the one who f*cked up. His insubordination made a bad situation worse. All because he didn't trust Leia to pick her vice-admiral wisely and because he wanted to play the hero.

He ignored the chain of command, questioned Leia's, his superior, judgement twice (The retreat and Holdo's appointment), is guilty of insubordination AND to add insult to injury, his plan not only failed, but ruined the main plan.

THAT is the description if a person that you execute as an example to the men. Normally I find executing your men distasteful, but if Poe Dameron was under my command I'd gladly make an exception.

Holdo was incompetent and clearly not ready to command what was left of the Resistance, which is admittedly a huge responsibility.

Disobeying because she ostensibly had no idea what to do aside from get everyone killed is plenty justification for insubordination. Blind obedience is the Empire's thing; the Rebels and Resistance follow, not obey. Holdo proved to at least a significant chunk of her crew that she was unfit for leadership. Whether or not that was the case is debatable, but it's ultimately why Poe manages to get so many to mutiny against her.

Holdo's plan was solid and would have worked, I agree with that. The problem was she didn't tell anyone about it. She didn't even have to tell everyone, just Poe would have sufficed since he ultimately started the mutiny and all (and he's a known maverick, being in the loop would have calmed him down), and I don't think Poe is about to defect to the First Order any time soon. Demoted for losing most of the Resistance's starfighter corps to destroy a ship that was about to destroy the Resistance flagship, sure, but still the Resistance's best remaining pilot and one that earned the respect of everyone on board, which is why so many of the ship's crew follow him instead of Holdo.

Executing Poe would just lead to not only losing your best starfighter pilot, but would probably lead many to leave the Resistance altogether. Good luck with that. As an aside, there were pilots and fighters left (some pilots are part of the mutiny, and the remaining starfighters are destroyed by Kylo Ren before they could even launch), and Poe himself could not possibly be at fault for the destruction of the remaining starfighters (including his own X-Wing) since no one expected the First Order to track the Resistance through hyperspace. They might have had some starfighters left if Poe had not charged the dreadnought, but then again they might have lost the flagship because that dreadnought was already aiming its cannons (the ones that just destroyed the base on D'Qar) at it.

In all honesty, this is really one weakness of the film. Plots that can be solved simply by a minute of proper communication between characters is contrived as all hell. Doubly so in a military situation such as the one in this film, where the most basic skill required at all levels is communication. Holdo didn't even have to tell Poe directly, because there's a thing called chain of command. Holdo tells her under-officers the plan, who then relay the information further and further down the chain, each time only telling the lesser ranks (like Poe) what they need to know. Even something as simple as "There is a plan, we just can't give all the information because of [X reason]" would most likely have sufficed to keep Poe from doing anything rash.

[Salus Maior]

Holdo wasn't incompetent, but she was unnecessarily stupid. Her plan was sound, leave the cruiser as bait while the transports make it to Crait where the Resistance can lay low for a while. Essentially faking the death of the Resistance, which would be amazing for their cause.

...But she refused to let anyone in on the plan. For God knows what reason except plot.

[Uinted Communist of Africa]

never thought Porg would be a word .....guess it is now.

[The first Galactic Republic]

You realize that the Galactic Empire had millions if not billions of slave laborers, right?

What do you think built the Death Star?

If I had to guess I'd say droids and other machines, maintained by a relatively small number of engineers.

They really did use slaves.

[Havl]

If I had to guess I'd say droids and other machines, maintained by a relatively small number of engineers.

They really did use slaves.

Wookiees at one point, I think.

[New haven america]

[floatleft]You do know that you are spouting propaganda right? Fictional propaganda at that.

The Jedi attempted to overthrow the democratically elected Chancellor without the Senate's approval. They alleged that Palpatine was a Sith Lord, but that's neither illegal nor grounds to remove the Chancellor from his position. There were procedures in place to ensure the legal abdication of a Supreme Chancellor and a peaceful transition of power, but the Jedi did not bother with such trivialities.

Maybe because he was a Sith Lord and they knew that he would never give up his power...

[The first Galactic Republic]

The Jedi attempted to overthrow the democratically elected Chancellor without the Senate's approval. They alleged that Palpatine was a Sith Lord, but that's neither illegal nor grounds to remove the Chancellor from his position. There were procedures in place to ensure the legal abdication of a Supreme Chancellor and a peaceful transition of power, but the Jedi did not bother with such trivialities.

Maybe because he was a Sith Lord and they knew that he would never give up his power...

The Jedi arrested someone so they could be given a trial. Mace Windu only tried to kill Palpatine after he resisted. Violently.

This is what police do in real life. Unless you want to go full libertarian and suggest the law be nothing more than people on their front porches with shotguns, they didn’t do anything wrong.