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Should we include X-Men and other non MCU topics in this thread?

Yes, all Marvel films should be discussed here
75
60%
No, keep this discussion MCU exclusive
50
40%
 
Total votes : 125

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Liriena
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Postby Liriena » Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:09 pm

Olthar wrote:
Ameriganastan wrote:Oh God, the fanboys would riot if Infinity War was just a Reality Stone illusion...now I'm kinda hoping for it. The rage would be so fun to see.

Nerd rage is fun, but a plot twist like that would probably piss off the regular viewers, too. People have complained for more than a decade that superhero films don't have enough consequences. This would likely be a huge hit to Marvel's popularity.

Now, pissing off the fanboys without alienating the normals is something I'm all for, but it's not that hard. Angering nerds is even easier than shooting fish in a barrel, becaus, at least, the fish won't shoot themselves merely by existing.

The nerd rage inciter I'm really looking forward to is when Sam Wilson gets to be the new Captain America in the MCU and a lot of the fake nerds get outraged about Marvel "making Cap black because SJWs".
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Postby Ameriganastan » Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:14 pm

Liriena wrote:
Olthar wrote:Nerd rage is fun, but a plot twist like that would probably piss off the regular viewers, too. People have complained for more than a decade that superhero films don't have enough consequences. This would likely be a huge hit to Marvel's popularity.

Now, pissing off the fanboys without alienating the normals is something I'm all for, but it's not that hard. Angering nerds is even easier than shooting fish in a barrel, becaus, at least, the fish won't shoot themselves merely by existing.

The nerd rage inciter I'm really looking forward to is when Sam Wilson gets to be the new Captain America in the MCU and a lot of the fake nerds get outraged about Marvel "making Cap black because SJWs".

Eh, I don't see them doing Captain Sam. Unless Steve somehow loses his powers in the movies like he did in the comic.
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Liriena
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Postby Liriena » Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:16 pm

Ameriganastan wrote:
Liriena wrote:The nerd rage inciter I'm really looking forward to is when Sam Wilson gets to be the new Captain America in the MCU and a lot of the fake nerds get outraged about Marvel "making Cap black because SJWs".

Eh, I don't see them doing Captain Sam. Unless Steve somehow loses his powers in the movies like he did in the comic.

Or dies. Or retires.
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I am:
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Political compass stuff:
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For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
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The first Galactic Republic
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Postby The first Galactic Republic » Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:17 pm

Liriena wrote:
Lord Dominator wrote:Calling it now, Endgame is going to be entirely Thanos messing with the Reality Stone.

Up the ante, Infinity War is entirely someone messing with the Reality Stone.

I have waaaaay too much faith in humanity to believe for a second that a decent writer would still pick the "it's all a dream" option to resolve the plot in this day an age.

A similar trope I’m starting to see in sci-fi stories is where the concept of a multiverse is used to achieve that same effect. Basically, the plot events that aren’t conductive to sequels will be made to take place in just one timeline, and our heroes might get a fresh new one through sci-fi wankery.
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Olthar
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Postby Olthar » Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:20 pm

Liriena wrote:
Olthar wrote:Nerd rage is fun, but a plot twist like that would probably piss off the regular viewers, too. People have complained for more than a decade that superhero films don't have enough consequences. This would likely be a huge hit to Marvel's popularity.

Now, pissing off the fanboys without alienating the normals is something I'm all for, but it's not that hard. Angering nerds is even easier than shooting fish in a barrel, becaus, at least, the fish won't shoot themselves merely by existing.

The nerd rage inciter I'm really looking forward to is when Sam Wilson gets to be the new Captain America in the MCU and a lot of the fake nerds get outraged about Marvel "making Cap black because SJWs".

Now that one I can get behind. Of course, it seems more likely that they'll go for Captain Bucky, instead, given what we've seen so far. Still, I won't discount the possibility of Captain Sam.

Ameriganastan wrote:
Liriena wrote:The nerd rage inciter I'm really looking forward to is when Sam Wilson gets to be the new Captain America in the MCU and a lot of the fake nerds get outraged about Marvel "making Cap black because SJWs".

Eh, I don't see them doing Captain Sam. Unless Steve somehow loses his powers in the movies like he did in the comic.

It seems very likely that Steve and Tony are going to die in Endgame. I would be shocked if either of them survive.
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Liriena
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Postby Liriena » Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:21 pm

The first Galactic Republic wrote:
Liriena wrote:I have waaaaay too much faith in humanity to believe for a second that a decent writer would still pick the "it's all a dream" option to resolve the plot in this day an age.

A similar trope I’m starting to see in sci-fi stories is where the concept of a multiverse is used to achieve that same effect. Basically, the plot events that aren’t conductive to sequels will be made to take place in just one timeline, and our heroes might get a fresh new one through sci-fi wankery.

[cringes in X-Men franchise]
The Fabulous Pope of NS


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
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The first Galactic Republic
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Postby The first Galactic Republic » Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:22 pm

Liriena wrote:
The first Galactic Republic wrote:A similar trope I’m starting to see in sci-fi stories is where the concept of a multiverse is used to achieve that same effect. Basically, the plot events that aren’t conductive to sequels will be made to take place in just one timeline, and our heroes might get a fresh new one through sci-fi wankery.

[cringes in X-Men franchise]

The X-Men timeline is impossibly horrible to make sense of, so I just pick and choose the movies I like and pretend the other ones aren’t there.
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Olthar
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Postby Olthar » Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:23 pm

Liriena wrote:
The first Galactic Republic wrote:A similar trope I’m starting to see in sci-fi stories is where the concept of a multiverse is used to achieve that same effect. Basically, the plot events that aren’t conductive to sequels will be made to take place in just one timeline, and our heroes might get a fresh new one through sci-fi wankery.

[cringes in X-Men franchise]

I don't even know which of those movies are canon anymore. :unsure:
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Liriena
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Postby Liriena » Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:23 pm

Olthar wrote:
Liriena wrote:The nerd rage inciter I'm really looking forward to is when Sam Wilson gets to be the new Captain America in the MCU and a lot of the fake nerds get outraged about Marvel "making Cap black because SJWs".

Now that one I can get behind. Of course, it seems more likely that they'll go for Captain Bucky, instead, given what we've seen so far. Still, I won't discount the possibility of Captain Sam.

Ameriganastan wrote:Eh, I don't see them doing Captain Sam. Unless Steve somehow loses his powers in the movies like he did in the comic.

It seems very likely that Steve and Tony are going to die in Endgame. I would be shocked if either of them survive.

A part of me thinks Tony is probably going to survive, at least in the off chance that the whole "him dreaming of a son with Pepper" thing pays off somehow. Him dying when he's going to be a father might be a bit too cruel, even for a post-Infinity War MCU movie. But otherwise... yeah, he and Steve are pretty much marked for death.
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I am:
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An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
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For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
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Liriena
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Postby Liriena » Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:25 pm

The first Galactic Republic wrote:
Liriena wrote:[cringes in X-Men franchise]

The X-Men timeline is impossibly horrible to make sense of, so I just pick and choose the movies I like and pretend the other ones aren’t there.

Who even is their target audience at this point? The superhero movie genre as a whole has moved past the style and tone of the original X-Men trilogy and, as far as I can tell, the "new timeline" movies haven't really progressed much beyond that point.
Last edited by Liriena on Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Fabulous Pope of NS


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


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Liriena
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Postby Liriena » Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:28 pm

Olthar wrote:
Liriena wrote:[cringes in X-Men franchise]

I don't even know which of those movies are canon anymore. :unsure:

All of them. And that's the worst part.
The Fabulous Pope of NS


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


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Olthar
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Postby Olthar » Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:28 pm

Liriena wrote:
Olthar wrote:Now that one I can get behind. Of course, it seems more likely that they'll go for Captain Bucky, instead, given what we've seen so far. Still, I won't discount the possibility of Captain Sam.


It seems very likely that Steve and Tony are going to die in Endgame. I would be shocked if either of them survive.

A part of me thinks Tony is probably going to survive, at least in the off chance that the whole "him dreaming of a son with Pepper" thing pays off somehow. Him dying when he's going to be a father might be a bit too cruel, even for a post-Infinity War MCU movie. But otherwise... yeah, he and Steve are pretty much marked for death.

I dunno. I just want Shuri to take over as a better version of Riri. That would be fun. I guess Tony doesn't need to die for that. He can just permanently retire (for real this time) to raise his kid.
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Ameriganastan
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Postby Ameriganastan » Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:29 pm

Olthar wrote:
Liriena wrote:[cringes in X-Men franchise]

I don't even know which of those movies are canon anymore. :unsure:

I know X3 and X-Men Origins got retconned by Days Of Future Past...I think.
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The first Galactic Republic
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Postby The first Galactic Republic » Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:30 pm

Liriena wrote:
The first Galactic Republic wrote:The X-Men timeline is impossibly horrible to make sense of, so I just pick and choose the movies I like and pretend the other ones aren’t there.

Who even is their target audience at this point? The superhero movie genre as a whole has moved past the style and tone of the original X-Men trilogy and as far as I can tell, the new timeline movies haven't really progressed much beyond that point.

The franchise is a part of superhero movie history. The original 2000 movie arguably started and set the tone for the modern superhero movie craze, but that kind of straight faced PG-13 action flick has since fallen by the wayside (except maybe for characters that never got films before like Black Panther and Aqua Man.)

They’ve got Deadpool going for them, but I get the feeling Dark Phoenix will be kind of a dud.
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Olthar
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Postby Olthar » Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:31 pm

Liriena wrote:
Olthar wrote:I don't even know which of those movies are canon anymore. :unsure:

All of them. And that's the worst part.

I know for a fact that Logan is non-canon, and I'm pretty sure that Origins was retroactively made non-canon. Plus, Days of Future Past, at the very least, erased X3 since Jean Grey is still alive at the end.
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Liriena
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Postby Liriena » Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:31 pm

Olthar wrote:
Liriena wrote:A part of me thinks Tony is probably going to survive, at least in the off chance that the whole "him dreaming of a son with Pepper" thing pays off somehow. Him dying when he's going to be a father might be a bit too cruel, even for a post-Infinity War MCU movie. But otherwise... yeah, he and Steve are pretty much marked for death.

I dunno. I just want Shuri to take over as a better version of Riri. That would be fun. I guess Tony doesn't need to die for that. He can just permanently retire (for real this time) to raise his kid.

Oh hell yeah, I want me some Shuri as Black Panther.

Also, I want the current version of Loki to stay dead, pretty please. I love Tom Hiddleston, but his character arc is finished.
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Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
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Liriena
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Postby Liriena » Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:33 pm

Olthar wrote:
Liriena wrote:All of them. And that's the worst part.

I know for a fact that Logan is non-canon, and I'm pretty sure that Origins was retroactively made non-canon. Plus, Days of Future Past, at the very least, erased X3 since Jean Grey is still alive at the end.

I consider X3 canon in the same way the original series of Star Trek still is kinda canon in the JJ Abrahms movies in an "alternate timeline" sort of way.

Man, I wish they'd just stopped with Logan. Dark Phoenix is gonna be a competent, unwanted waste of time at best.
Last edited by Liriena on Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Fabulous Pope of NS


I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


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Olthar
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Postby Olthar » Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:36 pm

The first Galactic Republic wrote:
Liriena wrote:Who even is their target audience at this point? The superhero movie genre as a whole has moved past the style and tone of the original X-Men trilogy and as far as I can tell, the new timeline movies haven't really progressed much beyond that point.

The franchise is a part of superhero movie history. The original 2000 movie arguably started and set the tone for the modern superhero movie craze, but that kind of straight faced PG-13 action flick has since fallen by the wayside (except maybe for characters that never got films before like Black Panther and Aqua Man.)

They’ve got Deadpool going for them, but I get the feeling Dark Phoenix will be kind of a dud.

Eh, X-Men may have come first, but I'd argue that Spider-Man had a greater effect on the image of the subgenre.

I do agree with you here, though. The only thing X-Men still has is Deadpool. What Marvel should do is bring him into the MCU, ditch the rest, and maybe restart the X-Men in a decade or so.
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The first Galactic Republic
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Postby The first Galactic Republic » Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:36 pm

Liriena wrote:
Olthar wrote:I dunno. I just want Shuri to take over as a better version of Riri. That would be fun. I guess Tony doesn't need to die for that. He can just permanently retire (for real this time) to raise his kid.

Oh hell yeah, I want me some Shuri as Black Panther.

Also, I want the current version of Loki to stay dead, pretty please. I love Tom Hiddleston, but his character arc is finished.

Implying Marvel cares about character arcs.

The character arcs established by solo movies generally go out the window for the crisis crossover Avengers movies.

Which, to be fair, is how it works in the comics.
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The first Galactic Republic
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Postby The first Galactic Republic » Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:37 pm

Olthar wrote:
The first Galactic Republic wrote:The franchise is a part of superhero movie history. The original 2000 movie arguably started and set the tone for the modern superhero movie craze, but that kind of straight faced PG-13 action flick has since fallen by the wayside (except maybe for characters that never got films before like Black Panther and Aqua Man.)

They’ve got Deadpool going for them, but I get the feeling Dark Phoenix will be kind of a dud.

Eh, X-Men may have come first, but I'd argue that Spider-Man had a greater effect on the image of the subgenre.

I do agree with you here, though. The only thing X-Men still has is Deadpool. What Marvel should do is bring him into the MCU, ditch the rest, and maybe restart the X-Men in a decade or so.

I used to think X-Men should stay separate.

But now I think joining the MCU is the only way to salvage the non-Deadpool stuff. Logan was good, but that was a stand-alone movie.
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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:38 pm

Liriena wrote:
Lord Dominator wrote:Calling it now, Endgame is going to be entirely Thanos messing with the Reality Stone.

Up the ante, Infinity War is entirely someone messing with the Reality Stone.

I have waaaaay too much faith in humanity to believe for a second that a decent writer would still pick the "it's all a dream" option to resolve the plot in this day an age.

Resolve what plot? It'd be clearly an excuse to make another-another sequel ;)
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Liriena
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Postby Liriena » Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:40 pm

The first Galactic Republic wrote:
Liriena wrote:Who even is their target audience at this point? The superhero movie genre as a whole has moved past the style and tone of the original X-Men trilogy and as far as I can tell, the new timeline movies haven't really progressed much beyond that point.

The franchise is a part of superhero movie history. The original 2000 movie arguably started and set the tone for the modern superhero movie craze, but that kind of straight faced PG-13 action flick has since fallen by the wayside (except maybe for characters that never got films before like Black Panther and Aqua Man.)

They’ve got Deadpool going for them, but I get the feeling Dark Phoenix will be kind of a dud.

X-Men and X-2 will always be classics and the spiritual forebearers of the current generation of superhero movies. And the first two movies with the new cast (First Class and Days Of Future Past) were great. But I think Apocalypse proved that the franchise as a whole is kind of running on fumes at this point, at least as a big action blockbuster franchise with a big cast.
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I am:
A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist
An aspiring writer and journalist
Political compass stuff:
Economic Left/Right: -8.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92
For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism
Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
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Liriena
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Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Liriena » Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:41 pm

The first Galactic Republic wrote:
Olthar wrote:Eh, X-Men may have come first, but I'd argue that Spider-Man had a greater effect on the image of the subgenre.

I do agree with you here, though. The only thing X-Men still has is Deadpool. What Marvel should do is bring him into the MCU, ditch the rest, and maybe restart the X-Men in a decade or so.

I used to think X-Men should stay separate.

But now I think joining the MCU is the only way to salvage the non-Deadpool stuff. Logan was good, but that was a stand-alone movie.

Patrick H. Willems had a very cool video on the subject of what to do with the X-Men, give or take whatever Dark Phoenix turns out to be.
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Liriena
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Founded: Nov 19, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Liriena » Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:43 pm

The first Galactic Republic wrote:
Liriena wrote:Oh hell yeah, I want me some Shuri as Black Panther.

Also, I want the current version of Loki to stay dead, pretty please. I love Tom Hiddleston, but his character arc is finished.

Implying Marvel cares about character arcs.

The character arcs established by solo movies generally go out the window for the crisis crossover Avengers movies.

Which, to be fair, is how it works in the comics.

This is true... and we saw a bit of that in Infinity War, but unless the next Thor movie is directed by some hack, I don't see them turning back the clock on Thor or Loki's characters.
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I am:
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Political compass stuff:
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Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism,
cynicism


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Corporate Police State

Postby Olthar » Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:46 pm

Liriena wrote:
The first Galactic Republic wrote:The franchise is a part of superhero movie history. The original 2000 movie arguably started and set the tone for the modern superhero movie craze, but that kind of straight faced PG-13 action flick has since fallen by the wayside (except maybe for characters that never got films before like Black Panther and Aqua Man.)

They’ve got Deadpool going for them, but I get the feeling Dark Phoenix will be kind of a dud.

X-Men and X-2 will always be classics and the spiritual forebearers of the current generation of superhero movies. And the first two movies with the new cast (First Class and Days Of Future Past) were great. But I think Apocalypse proved that the franchise as a whole is kind of running on fumes at this point, at least as a big action blockbuster franchise with a big cast.

X1 and X2 were good for the time, but that was a time when "good superhero movie" was almost an oxymoron. They haven't aged well and are now firmly in the mediocre camp when compared to the MCU. First Class was decent, I though, but Days of Future Past was nothing but a shallow Wolverine ego trip.
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