MCU/Superhero Discussion Thread

[Forsher]

...Wait, America was gay? I don't think that came up during that movie. Or if it did, I missed it.

The comics character she's adapted from is. As I said, I haven't seen the movie but as with Billy, some people were concerned that the reason the character is so young in the MCU was in order to sidestep the same sex relationship.

Take, for example, Kamala. The actress is older, the character has been aged up for the MCU (not by much) but the character is also straight. America is younger in the MCU (unless they hired a younger actress to play a character about half a decade older than her) but isn't straight. Ditto Peter Parker. Straight character, so they hire an actor older than the character to play him.

My point, though, is that to my knowledge America Chavez is the first* gay superhero in a major motion picture (meaning one with a budget of more than, say, $80 million) and this happened in 2022.

*Which is not necessarily the same as saying the first queer superhero... we all know the story with Valkyrie. The situation with Rahne and Dani in New Mutants (budget actually falling short of my $80 million qualifier, but I didn't know that) is noteworthy because neither's gay in 616... Rahne's actually infamously homophobic in one storyline (when he ex starts dating another man)... and even people who ship Dani and Rahne tend to see them as bisexual. If we count non-616 universes the first queer (Marvel) superhero would probably be Wolverine because of that one universe where he's married to Hercules... can't speak to DC's first.

[Lord Dominator]

I don’t disagree with the general idea, but I would note that both Billy and America have thus far appeared in a show/movie not really about them & no announced Young Avengers (I understand is both their most notable team association) yet that I’m aware of, it seems likely they’re younger so that they still plausibly qualify as “youngish” for that, or just aren’t reasonably well into adulthood whenever they do appear again.

[Forsher]

I don’t disagree with the general idea, but I would note that both Billy and America have thus far appeared in a show/movie not really about them & no announced Young Avengers (I understand is both their most notable team association) yet that I’m aware of, it seems likely they’re younger so that they still plausibly qualify as “youngish” for that, or just aren’t reasonably well into adulthood whenever they do appear again.

At this point either they don't care about Young Avengers or they want to have fairly substantial age variation. By far the most important Young Avenger, taking their careers as a whole, is Kate Bishop and she's 21/22 iirc, played by a 25 year old (born December 1996). Probably the next most significant Young Avengers are Teddy and Billy... and a huge part of their story is the fact they're a couple. Teddy hasn't even been adapted (if he's in DSMoM don't tell me because it's on Disney+ next week) and his background is complex wrt the comics since his father is a woman in the MCU. But, hey, maybe that'll make more sense post Ms Marvel or The Marvels.

If you look at the original comics run, however, the most important Young Avengers are Patriot (barely introduced, but on the older side), Iron Lad (not introduced per se) and Cassie Lang. That last point is significant for two reasons. Firstly, Kathryn Newton, the most recent Cassie actress, is about two months younger than Steinfeld. Secondly, a big part of why I'm suggesting she's more important than Kate, Billy or Tommy is that she has a romance arc with Iron Lad... the "you son of a bitch, I'm in" character... and Young Vision (or whatever it is they call him).

I know the general thinking is that they got rid of Emma Fuhrmann (who herself is 20, born 2001... a few days after 9/11, incidentally) because she was a bit loose lipped about being cast as Cassie, but it's always looked to me that she was replaced with a substantially older actress because of the Iron Lad thing. Specifically the prospect that they'd use their 32 year old (1989) Kang actor, Jonathan Majors, as the other half of the pairing. That is, they'd do a version of the romantic arc (and I can't remember how developed it was in the comics, mind) but without Iron Lad as such. Perhaps Cassie gets trapped in the future, even, and is helped back to her time by a good Kang, and then later on the Quantumania characters encounter a bad Kang who pretends to be the good Kang, say.

The upshot to me is that while almost all the pieces from comics Young Avengers are in place (including a teenaged version of Loki*), it is also true that those pieces don't fit together in a way reminiscent of the comics at all (between the varying ages).

*The Loki in Young Avengers is not Kid Loki, who really is the same age as WandaVision Billy and Tommy, but instead Ikol, who murdered Kid Loki before assuming his identity. And the "Kid Loki" in Loki looked rather more like a teenager than a pre-teen to me.

[Lord Dominator]

The only portions of that I have an actual opinion other than agreement or confusion on would run into MoM spoilers, so I’ll leave those for now.

On a different note, my first thought on where they’d bring Teddy would be either Secret Invasion or The Marvels - the former has Skrulls, the latter the greatest likelihood of Kree outside the Guardians, if we assume the full family history.

On a different note, I’ve seen speculation for a Viv appearance in Armor Wars, basically on the justification that that’s the most plausible place for Vision to show up again. There is no actual evidence of course, was openly some musingg speculation.

[Cannot think of a name]

The only portions of that I have an actual opinion other than agreement or confusion on would run into MoM spoilers, so I’ll leave those for now.

On a different note, my first thought on where they’d bring Teddy would be either Secret Invasion or The Marvels - the former has Skrulls, the latter the greatest likelihood of Kree outside the Guardians, if we assume the full family history.

On a different note, I’ve seen speculation for a Viv appearance in Armor Wars, basically on the justification that that’s the most plausible place for Vision to show up again. There is no actual evidence of course, was openly some musingg speculation.

It would make sense, Vision has to have more than a little propitary Stark tech and Vision 2.0 went and fucked off on his own. Didn't even show up to talk Wanda down so who knows what his deal is.

Though I saw a headline (but didn't read it...sigh, let me double check instead of being 'that guy'...okay, not a rumor, this is in The Hollywood Reporter. Side observation, yet another writer pulled from a Dan Harmon writing room (Community). I know Harmon was called in to do a consultation on the Doctor Strange script (which he described as going and eating a pizza in an office and going, "yeah, he's a bit like Rick" (from Rick & Morty). It seems like they're trying to get Harmon without the hassle and more prone to follow directions. Plus, after working for Harmon no matter what Disney is like it'll seem like relief, at least according to 'legend.')

What the fuck was I talking about?

Oh, right. Wonder Man. Wonder Man is getting his own series. Maybe they'll shoehorn in the whole 'Vision's personality is a imprint of Wonder Man' thing where he restores Vision 2.0 (sorry, a white bald guy going "White Vision"...doesn't feel right. ymmv) empathy/personality/whatever. Vision 2.0, Wonder Man, Moon Knight...three more members to a West Coast Avengers?

I'm never getting West Coast Avengers. That's such an awkward sell for live action. Maybe...maaaaybe as a Disney+ series, but why go for a third Avengers (presuming Young Avengers is more or less assumed) franchise when you could do Champions or Alpha Flight or the fifteen or so different mutant teams.

If they did Alpha Flight do you think they'd keep the 'spring loaded' little person named Puck?

[Forsher]

The only portions of that I have an actual opinion other than agreement or confusion on would run into MoM spoilers, so I’ll leave those for now.

On a different note, my first thought on where they’d bring Teddy would be either Secret Invasion or The Marvels - the former has Skrulls, the latter the greatest likelihood of Kree outside the Guardians, if we assume the full family history.

On a different note, I’ve seen speculation for a Viv appearance in Armor Wars, basically on the justification that that’s the most plausible place for Vision to show up again. There is no actual evidence of course, was openly some musingg speculation.

Secret Invasion would be fairly plausible because there was a Young Avengers Secret Invasion tie in (they doubled up with Runaways... which Feige's meant to be a fan of and most of the cast are about the same age as Steinfeld), which was also when Noh Varr/Marvel Boy was introduced. You'd also hope that they could actually use the extra running time versus a film to do a bit more than just "make a really long film" but based on what we've seen so far, that's a pipe dream.

I've seen people speculating that they might just make Teddy Mar Vell's grandson via Genis. Much like that Viv thing (which I agree, sounds plausible) there's no evidence for this, just people trying to figure out how to shoehorn the basic outline of his backstory into the MCU context.

[Free Algerstonia]

...Wait, America was gay? I don't think that came up during that movie. Or if it did, I missed it.

The comics character she's adapted from is. As I said, I haven't seen the movie but as with Billy, some people were concerned that the reason the character is so young in the MCU was in order to sidestep the same sex relationship.

Take, for example, Kamala. The actress is older, the character has been aged up for the MCU (not by much) but the character is also straight. America is younger in the MCU (unless they hired a younger actress to play a character about half a decade older than her) but isn't straight. Ditto Peter Parker. Straight character, so they hire an actor older than the character to play him.

My point, though, is that to my knowledge America Chavez is the first* gay superhero in a major motion picture (meaning one with a budget of more than, say, $80 million) and this happened in 2022.

*Which is not necessarily the same as saying the first queer superhero... we all know the story with Valkyrie. The situation with Rahne and Dani in New Mutants (budget actually falling short of my $80 million qualifier, but I didn't know that) is noteworthy because neither's gay in 616... Rahne's actually infamously homophobic in one storyline (when he ex starts dating another man)... and even people who ship Dani and Rahne tend to see them as bisexual. If we count non-616 universes the first queer (Marvel) superhero would probably be Wolverine because of that one universe where he's married to Hercules... can't speak to DC's first.

america chavez is not the first-- phastos from eternals is openly gay. though I can understand why you forgot him.

[Forsher]

america chavez is not the first-- phastos from eternals is openly gay. though I can understand why you forgot him.

Derp

My bad.

But, still, late 2021.

[Cannot think of a name]

This isn't as big as news as I initially thought it would be. Basically, Deadline seems pretty sure on the safest bet so far, that Warner Brothers will drop Ezra Miller after The Flash, but despite headlines there isn't an official announcement and the other conventional wisdom is to release the movie they have and just hope for the best.

From some of the headlines I thought they were actually replacing him.

[Christian Confederation]

This isn't as big as news as I initially thought it would be. Basically, Deadline seems pretty sure on the safest bet so far, that Warner Brothers will drop Ezra Miller after The Flash, but despite headlines there isn't an official announcement and the other conventional wisdom is to release the movie they have and just hope for the best.

From some of the headlines I thought they were actually replacing him.

It would probably cost them more to recast and reshoot then they assumed they would make on the movie. With Miller seemingly in hiding my best guess is they hope this will blow over between now and release.

[Free Algerstonia]

This isn't as big as news as I initially thought it would be. Basically, Deadline seems pretty sure on the safest bet so far, that Warner Brothers will drop Ezra Miller after The Flash, but despite headlines there isn't an official announcement and the other conventional wisdom is to release the movie they have and just hope for the best.

From some of the headlines I thought they were actually replacing him.

i wonder how this will affect how well the flash does in the box office, especially given dceu's history with troubled production in movies. i'm just watching from the sidelines as i don't really like the dceu (huge fan of the emerging extended universe that debuted in the batman though) but the franchise seems to be gaining some favor with general audiences after justice league, i'd hate to see that go away due to one of the actors fucking it up.

[The Church of Satan]

My point, though, is that to my knowledge America Chavez is the first* gay superhero in a major motion picture (meaning one with a budget of more than, say, $80 million) and this happened in 2022.

Negasonic Teenage Warhead and Yukio in Deadpool 2 ($110 million budget) has America Chavez beat by four years. And I wouldn't be surprised if there was someone in Marvel before them. For the DC universe, maybe Danny the Street in the Doom Patrol TV show, but I'm honestly not sure because Danny is a street and I am not prepared to contemplate the sexual preference of a sentient street, lol.

[Forsher]

My point, though, is that to my knowledge America Chavez is the first* gay superhero in a major motion picture (meaning one with a budget of more than, say, $80 million) and this happened in 2022.

Negasonic Teenage Warhead and Yukio in Deadpool 2 ($110 million budget) has America Chavez beat by four years. And I wouldn't be surprised if there was someone in Marvel before them. For the DC universe, maybe Danny the Street in the Doom Patrol TV show, but I'm honestly not sure because Danny is a street and I am not prepared to contemplate the sexual preference of a sentient street, lol.

Well there's another one I forgot.

Doom Patrol is a TV show and therefore does not count as a motion picture (which is a synonym for film, despite the name), let alone a major motion picture.

[Cannot think of a name]

My point, though, is that to my knowledge America Chavez is the first* gay superhero in a major motion picture (meaning one with a budget of more than, say, $80 million) and this happened in 2022.

Negasonic Teenage Warhead and Yukio in Deadpool 2 ($110 million budget) has America Chavez beat by four years. And I wouldn't be surprised if there was someone in Marvel before them. For the DC universe, maybe Danny the Street in the Doom Patrol TV show, but I'm honestly not sure because Danny is a street and I am not prepared to contemplate the sexual preference of a sentient street, lol.

The Arrowverse has had Sarah Lance for I don't know how long.

Though America being gay but not noticing is the apex of representation. In reality you wouldn't know if America was gay or straight because she was a little to preoccupied fleeing the Scarlet Witch to do a side mission fulfilling romantic love. In Lightyear you find out a character is lesbian by seeing her partner briefly. Unless your gay friend is theatrical or an activist most of the time they're just...being.

They had to fight for this especially in Asian representation coining the term "Asian without explanation," the tendency to add to the story some sort of tag about their asianess as if the story had to explain why there was an Asian character in the story. LGBTQ+ representation is reaching that point, but it's a little tricky because unless you're displaying a relationship or romantic interest there's the whole 'assumed straight' thing.

This is probably something for another thread...

[The Church of Satan]

This is probably something for another thread...

Probably.

[The Alma Mater]

Negasonic Teenage Warhead and Yukio in Deadpool 2 ($110 million budget) has America Chavez beat by four years. And I wouldn't be surprised if there was someone in Marvel before them. For the DC universe, maybe Danny the Street in the Doom Patrol TV show, but I'm honestly not sure because Danny is a street and I am not prepared to contemplate the sexual preference of a sentient street, lol.

The Arrowverse has had Sarah Lance for I don't know how long.

DC had Batman and Robin. Especially in the old series.

[Ameriganastan]

The Arrowverse has had Sarah Lance for I don't know how long.

Since the very start. Even if she didn't appear in the flesh until Arrow season 2.

[Eahland]

The Arrowverse has had Sarah Lance for I don't know how long.

Since the very start. Even if she didn't appear in the flesh until Arrow season 2.

Technically Sara Lance was in the very first episode of Arrow. Wasn't Caity Lotz at that point, though.

[Cannot think of a name]

Since the very start. Even if she didn't appear in the flesh until Arrow season 2.

Technically Sara Lance was in the very first episode of Arrow. Wasn't Caity Lotz at that point, though.

Oh yeah...she was Oliver's side piece in the before times.

[Ameriganastan]

Technically Sara Lance was in the very first episode of Arrow. Wasn't Caity Lotz at that point, though.

Oh yeah...she was Oliver's side piece in the before times.

The before times. When they tried being realistic. God, it's almost funny looking back at it now.

[Cannot think of a name]

Oh yeah...she was Oliver's side piece in the before times.

The before times. When they tried being realistic. God, it's almost funny looking back at it now.

The realism trend in superhero adaptations was a blight.

[Ameriganastan]

The before times. When they tried being realistic. God, it's almost funny looking back at it now.

The realism trend in superhero adaptations was a blight.

It's all Nolan's fault. Thank God they eventually said "Fuck it" and just gave us metas, time travel, demons, lesbian clones and what have you.

[Forsher]

The realism trend in superhero adaptations was a blight.

It's all Nolan's fault. Thank God they eventually said "Fuck it" and just gave us metas, time travel, demons, lesbian clones and what have you.

What had lesbian clones? Something DC? And I suspect I know the answer to demons but I think superhero adaptations are more famous at this point for not having demons.

[Eahland]

It's all Nolan's fault. Thank God they eventually said "Fuck it" and just gave us metas, time travel, demons, lesbian clones and what have you.

What had lesbian clones? Something DC? And I suspect I know the answer to demons but I think superhero adaptations are more famous at this point for not having demons.

Legends of Tomorrow.

[Christian Confederation]

The Arrowverse has had Sarah Lance for I don't know how long.

DC had Batman and Robin. Especially in the old series.

I thought Robin was Batman's Son?