MCU/Superhero Discussion Thread

[Forsher]

Things are very rarely as bad as people make them out to be.

I watched a complimentary screening of BvS at the movies after weeks of reading "this movie makes no sense" and "it's completely incoherent" takes. My overwhelming response was "if you couldn't follow this movie you're a fucking idiot". Of course, it's worth noting I saw it (a) for free and (b) informed by all and sundry that the movie was a steaming turd.

Now, I think people wanted Morbius to be bad, so there's unlikely to be a sense of disappointment a la BvS' hot takes but the kind of person that goes to watch a film that they think will be bad is going to have... a strange take on the film.

That being said, I haven't seen Morbius so maybe it is how people say it is.

Wikipedia has informed me that the only worse reviewed Marvel movie (in any relation) is the 2015 F4, so there’s that - or looking at numbers, it’s barely at break-even (BvS for instance still managed decently over that, just less than expected).

Fan4stic really annoys me because aside from Victor's age being really unclear, it's actually kind of good (not great, by any means, but certainly not bad) for most of the movie. (Obviously making Victor into Ultimate Moleman is a Choice and not one I understand, but that's a bad adaptation issue, not a bad film issue.) It's just once it goes bad, it goes really, really bad. Luckily, it's a short movie and there's not much left at that point.

I really wish I'd actually finished comparing critical scores to audience scores, now. Ah, well.

also, 20,000 posts... ignoring the handful of ones not in the official counter

[Christian Confederation]

The OG 2 Fantastic Four movies were pretty good.

[Christian Confederation]

This may sound crazy but just hear me out. Civil War and Thanos happened to soon.

-Winter Soldier should have been solely on the threat of the Winter Soldier/ Ethics of Shield.

-Then Ultron becomes Avengers 3 instead of 2.

-This new Avengers 2 would focus on the Return of Hydra led by Alexander Pierce introduced in Winter Soldier after Fury was Shot.

-In reaction to Hydra Tony and Bruce make Ultron in Avengers 3. Wanda and Quicksilver are introduced in Avengers 3 with setup at the end of the new Avengers 2.

-After Ultron we have the whole team on the verge of Civil War. This new Civil War would be about the Winter Soldier who has been on the run from Hydra since Winter Soldier or Avengers 2 is captured by Baron Zemo and reactivated and used against the UN at the Sokovia Accord meeting. They have a fight and Steve is able to get through to bucky and they capture him. Wakanda wants Bucky for Murdering there king and Steve is against sending bucky to a death sentence for something he was brainwashed to do. The Airport fight happens when team cap attempts to get Bucky to Safety in a country without extradition laws. The fight ends about the same. Cap and Bucky join with the agents of Shield to bust the rest of the team out of the Raft. Both Teams get word that Barron Zemo has control of a Shield Missile Base in Siberia and is about to destroy the world. Both sides agree to a truce long enough to stop Zemo. After the battle and revelation about Tony's parents they all go there separate ways After a short fight something like "You and that killer get out of my sight before I change my mind, this isn't over Rogers!" The Rouge Avengers set up shop in Wakanda after TChala sees footage or otherwise learns about the Hydra brainwashing.

-The two teams are out of Contact until Avengers 4 which would be Infinity War.
-With 5 being Endgame. At the end of Infinity War/ Middle of Endgame the Team settles their differences and become one team again.

Basically it builds up from Hydra to Ultron to Civil War before ending with Thanos. This would also cut out the Bruce Natasha Romance plot from Ultron and continue the Cap Natasha plot set up in Winter Soldier that would continue into the alternative Hydra centric Avengers 2 and beyond. The addition of a Avengers Film between Winter Soldier and Ultron makes Hydra more of a threat. It also gives Thanos more of a build up/ opportunities to collect the stones on camera. The extra Avengers film gives more time for Caracter building as well as not jumping immediately from Ultron to Thanos with Civil War in the middle. There could also be a Cap and Iron Man 4 between Civil War and Avengers 4 Infinity War. The two team centric films could be used for more characters development and to create suspense as Thanos gathers the last 2 stones before coming after the Mind Stone/ Time Stone/ and possibly Soul Stone in Infinity War.
Thoughts?

[Cannot think of a name]

It's not a spoiler observation, I like the style for Ms Marvel. Might end up being too busy or precious for some people but I like it.

[Pasong Tirad]

Ms. Marvel is definitely some of the most fun I've had watching a MCU show.

[Free Algerstonia]

I'm a huge fan of this new show

[Cannot think of a name]

Screen Culture hit a new asshole low by not only constructing their own 'final trailer' without clearly indicating it's fake but ALSO by putting Beta Ray Bill in the thumbnail. (no real indication that Beta Ray Bill will be in it)

Fuck that channel. Up the ass with Mjolnir, head first.

[Cannot think of a name]

Black Adam trailer

[Ameriganastan]

Black Adam trailer

Granted I'm not super familiar with Black Adam outside of Injustice 2, but isn't he like king or something? Why he starting as a slave here?

[Cannot think of a name]

Black Adam trailer

Granted I'm not super familiar with Black Adam outside of Injustice 2, but isn't he like king or something? Why he starting as a slave here?

I'm even less familiar with him. My knowledge of DC is spotty and weird. Demon, Hellblazer, Deadman, Spectre...Blue Beetle but only when Grant Morrison was writing him, Swamp Thing but primarily when Alan Moore was writing the character. Bunch of Vertigo titles (Sandman natch).

Black Adam I am barely aware of as a character at all.

I like Hawkman in a way that has never actually sought him out or read him in any meaningful way. I know more about The Atom from Arrowverse than I do the proper Atom.

I'm a little familiar with Doctor Fate.

I might have absorbed more Justice League/Justice League Unlimited than I have DC comics as a whole. I'm on the fence on whether I want to get up to speed on Black Adam prior to the movie or just go in cold so to speak. I'll probably split the difference, I'm already at Shazam/Captain Marvel primarily being from the cheesy 70s live action show.

[Christian Confederation]

Granted I'm not super familiar with Black Adam outside of Injustice 2, but isn't he like king or something? Why he starting as a slave here?

I'm even less familiar with him. My knowledge of DC is spotty and weird. Demon, Hellblazer, Deadman, Spectre...Blue Beetle but only when Grant Morrison was writing him, Swamp Thing but primarily when Alan Moore was writing the character. Bunch of Vertigo titles (Sandman natch).

Black Adam I am barely aware of as a character at all.

I like Hawkman in a way that has never actually sought him out or read him in any meaningful way. I know more about The Atom from Arrowverse than I do the proper Atom.

I'm a little familiar with Doctor Fate.

I might have absorbed more Justice League/Justice League Unlimited than I have DC comics as a whole. I'm on the fence on whether I want to get up to speed on Black Adam prior to the movie or just go in cold so to speak. I'll probably split the difference, I'm already at Shazam/Captain Marvel primarily being from the cheesy 70s live action show.

I thought Black Atom was a Dictator?

[New haven america]

Black Adam trailer

Granted I'm not super familiar with Black Adam outside of Injustice 2, but isn't he like king or something? Why he starting as a slave here?

In the Fawcett Comics version as well as New 52 he starts off as a slave before getting gifted powers.

In the new DC version from the 90's, he's Ramesses II's son.

[Nova Catania]

Re: Ms. Marvel.

As a show, it’s pretty good. As a Marvel show, it leans (for me at least) a little too much into the Netlflix teen rom-com show genre. Watching it with parents was a half hour of hoping they wouldn’t draw parallels. But still good as a whole.

[Forsher]

Black Adam trailer

Granted I'm not super familiar with Black Adam outside of Injustice 2, but isn't he like king or something? Why he starting as a slave here?

The Rock wanted to remake The Scorpion King.

Re: Ms. Marvel.

As a show, it’s pretty good. As a Marvel show, it leans (for me at least) a little too much into the Netlflix teen rom-com show genre. Watching it with parents was a half hour of hoping they wouldn’t draw parallels. But still good as a whole.

I've never seen any of them but, like, maybe it should feel like that? God knows it should have its own distinct feel, not beholden to be a ctrl-c, ctrl-v of the vibe of the rest of Marvel Studios' shows and/or films.

Based on the post credits scene, however, I imagine it will soon feel less unique. Looks like it's going to have the WandaVision problem of starting out as one thing and using the plot as an excuse to become more conventional, in all the worst ways.

[The Black Forrest]

It's not a spoiler observation, I like the style for Ms Marvel. Might end up being too busy or precious for some people but I like it.

It’s a pretty show and has it’s humor spots. I only read the first issue of Ms. Marvel and I don’t remember what is suggested to be giving her the powers (trying not to spoil). I thought it was odd after leaving the Con; there wasn’t anything for WTF just happened?

[Forsher]

It's not a spoiler observation, I like the style for Ms Marvel. Might end up being too busy or precious for some people but I like it.

It’s a pretty show and has it’s humor spots. I only read the first issue of Ms. Marvel and I don’t remember what is suggested to be giving her the powers (trying not to spoil). I thought it was odd after leaving the Con; there wasn’t anything for WTF just happened?

Her powers have a completely different (controversially) origin story. The trailers also made it look like her powers are (even more controversially) completely different, necessitating, iirc Feige himself but definitely, someone high up the food chain to make an official statement that they kept her base powers while adding the ones featured in S1E1.

There's a high risk of her comics origin story being completely retconned because of this shit (if it hasn't been already), thus destroying huge part of the early stories (contrary to what many people will tell you). I would, for example, interpret the credits scene as pulling from the much more recent

Kamala's Law arc, which is a teenager superhero regulation thing

. However, I can kind of see how it could be related to being

an Inhuman

which is her comics origin story, so I keep it in the spoiler just in case. Of course, I don't think they will do anything with that, I'm just saying I can see how they could... especially if you look at AoS.

Moral of the story... the MCU is more fun when it's not characters you care about.

[Hamidiye]

Black Adam trailer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DY-zg8Oo8p4

[Christian Confederation]

Anyone else listen to Batman Unburryed on Spotify? It's pretty good.

[Forsher]

Thunderbolts incoming??

Marvel’s ‘Thunderbolts’ Movie Taps Jake Schreier As Director

EXCLUSIVE: Marvel Studios’ top-secret Thunderbolts movie looks to have gained momentum as Deadline has learned that Jake Schreier is set as director of the new Marvel tentpole. Black Widow scribe Eric Pearson is penning the script with Marvel Studios President Kevin Feige producing.

Not much is known about the plot of film other than it revolves around a group of villains who are sent on missions commissioned by the government. Another element that remains vague is which characters will be part of this team since the film is technically still is in development, though sources say Marvel has been in touch with certain individuals who already are part of the MCU to make sure to keep an opening in their schedules for next summer when it shoots.

i.e. it seems to be the pre-Dark Reign era team concept, but the expected line up is, naturally, very different:

That said, some of the characters who could potentially be appearing in the film include Baron Zemo, Yelena Belova, Ghost, Taskmaster, The Abomination, US Agent and the Winter Soldier. General Thaddeus “Thunderbolt” Ross is also a possibility since he is the person in the comics who assembles the first team — hence the name — but that is unconfirmed as no deal for any actor has closed.

I just checked on Wikipedia and the only Ross team was the antihero one, formed years after Thunderbolts was first conceived so this ("the person in the comics who assembles the first team") appears to not be true.

THEWRAP despite the "EXCLUSIVE" also covered this and they have a quite different take on what it's likely to be:

The “Thunderbolts” center on a team of reformed supervillains. According to an insider with knowledge of the project, TheWrap has learned that Florence Pugh’s Yelena Bulova might return to star.

Other villains who might return include Baron Zemo, Ghost, Taskmaster, The Abomination, US Agent and the Winter Soldier.

The seeds for the Thunderbolts were planted in the recent “Falcon and the Winter Soldier” series, which saw Sam Wilson rise up as the new Captain America while John Walker fell from the title he briefly held while being renamed the U.S. Agent. We suspected Marvel had bigger plans for Wyatt Russell’s ex-Cap. He appears to be at the mercy of Valentina Allegra de Fontaine (Julia Louis-Dreyfus), who herself is being set up to be a key player during this new phase of the MCU. It sure sounds like Walker is going to be asked to lead some kind of team — de Fonatine is kind of like a bizarro-world version of Nick Fury.

I'm not sure that any of the comics versions are actually about reformed supervillains. The New Thunderbolts might've been. Mostly it's either villains that may start to reform or a rehabilitation programme (cf that part of Jessica Jones where she tries to turn Kilgrave into a superhero) or that one dodgy anti-hero team.

[Cannot think of a name]

It's not a spoiler observation, I like the style for Ms Marvel. Might end up being too busy or precious for some people but I like it.

It’s a pretty show and has it’s humor spots. I only read the first issue of Ms. Marvel and I don’t remember what is suggested to be giving her the powers (trying not to spoil). I thought it was odd after leaving the Con; there wasn’t anything for WTF just happened?

It seems they are definitely not going with where her powers come from in the comics.

It still might be a product of the Kree though. But obviously it's a hereditary device. Grandma a superhero during the Partition or Partitioning or whatever it was called when Pakistan and India split.
DS:MoM means that at least somewhere Inhumans exist. The whole Inhumans thing in AoS is the hardest thing to reconcile with the MCU because at a certain point the teragenisis got out and there was even a story line about governments putting their own Inhuman teams together.

Though since I haven't read the character I'm not invested in her specifics. I'm free to be charmed!

[Forsher]

DS:MoM means that at least somewhere Inhumans exist. The whole Inhumans thing in AoS is the hardest thing to reconcile with the MCU because at a certain point the teragenisis got out and there was even a story line about governments putting their own Inhuman teams together.

That's what I mean by the end credits scene (comics related speculation ahoy).

Not having seen DS:MoM (and still undecided about going all in with spoiling it, but I'm not avoiding spoilers for it as such any more), maybe it comes into that somehow, but I would expect that end scene is something to do with SWORD, if it still exists after WandaVision (ofc). More specifically, I would expect that it has something to do with Kamala's Law, which is when Kamala and the Champions kind of got teenage superheroes outlawed. It's possible there's something from her early books I can't quite remember, but those two looked like agents of some kind to me and what I'm dimly recalling was just an ordinary supervillain. But if we follow the recent Kamala's Law idea along, these two agents exist to do a Sokovia Accords related version of "Kamala has government troubles" plot in the show.

However, we might alternatively see these two agents as either stand ins for New Attilan or the Inhumans Regulation Body from AoS (I've forgotten its name, so let's just pretend it's the IRB).

In Kamala's early run, she's a NuHuman so (New) Attilan is busy sending out people to find and help the various victims of the terrigen cloud(s). Medusa and Lockjaw, in particular, become quite important. If we translate that into the MCU context, what I'm thinking is a group like Afterlife is thinking maybe Kamala's one of them. Obviously Afterlife isn't around any more, but there's no particular reason to imagine that Afterlife was the only such group of Inhumans, especially after the fish pills. You can see how a bunch of secret Inhumans might be interested in helping out.

Alternatively, of course, they're just straight up agents of the IRB. I believe they were somewhat implied to have been folded into SHIELD but SHIELD pretty quickly became outlaws again anyway, so I don't see any reason why that would stick. And as I've said many times over the years, there's no real "need" to look in on or even reference the IRB's existence outside of Inhuman specific storylines.

But, again, some kind of Kamala's Law inspired Sokovia Accord related plotline is surely what that is about.

[Christian Confederation]

Since Ross's Actor died in march it's unlikely we see red Hulk unless there's a recast. But the Abomination, Yelena, Ghost, US Agent, Zemo team line up sounds about right.

[Christian Confederation]

DS:MoM means that at least somewhere Inhumans exist. The whole Inhumans thing in AoS is the hardest thing to reconcile with the MCU because at a certain point the teragenisis got out and there was even a story line about governments putting their own Inhuman teams together.

That's what I mean by the end credits scene (comics related speculation ahoy).

Not having seen DS:MoM (and still undecided about going all in with spoiling it, but I'm not avoiding spoilers for it as such any more), maybe it comes into that somehow, but I would expect that end scene is something to do with SWORD, if it still exists after WandaVision (ofc). More specifically, I would expect that it has something to do with Kamala's Law, which is when Kamala and the Champions kind of got teenage superheroes outlawed. It's possible there's something from her early books I can't quite remember, but those two looked like agents of some kind to me and what I'm dimly recalling was just an ordinary supervillain. But if we follow the recent Kamala's Law idea along, these two agents exist to do a Sokovia Accords related version of "Kamala has government troubles" plot in the show.

However, we might alternatively see these two agents as either stand ins for New Attilan or the Inhumans Regulation Body from AoS (I've forgotten its name, so let's just pretend it's the IRB).

In Kamala's early run, she's a NuHuman so (New) Attilan is busy sending out people to find and help the various victims of the terrigen cloud(s). Medusa and Lockjaw, in particular, become quite important. If we translate that into the MCU context, what I'm thinking is a group like Afterlife is thinking maybe Kamala's one of them. Obviously Afterlife isn't around any more, but there's no particular reason to imagine that Afterlife was the only such group of Inhumans, especially after the fish pills. You can see how a bunch of secret Inhumans might be interested in helping out.

Alternatively, of course, they're just straight up agents of the IRB. I believe they were somewhat implied to have been folded into SHIELD but SHIELD pretty quickly became outlaws again anyway, so I don't see any reason why that would stick. And as I've said many times over the years, there's no real "need" to look in on or even reference the IRB's existence outside of Inhuman specific storylines.

But, again, some kind of Kamala's Law inspired Sokovia Accord related plotline is surely what that is about.

I mean the government has to get involved or the Sokovia Accords become irrelevant unless we assume Cap and the gang used the chaos after the first snap to get them repealed. As for Shield unless Marvel stops fence sitting and joins the it's cannon side it's unlikely. The official position appears to currently be it's not cannon and it's not not cannon. They don't come out on one side or another in fear of pissing off Shields loyal and growing fan base.

[Vassenor]

Also it has also been fun watching all the OMG MARVEL WENT WOKE crowd a. deciding that actually they're down with Brie Larson and Captain Marvel after all, and b. showing that don't actually know squat about the comics they claim to be defending from the horror of Muslim main characters "replacing" white ones.

[Cannot think of a name]

Also it has also been fun watching all the OMG MARVEL WENT WOKE crowd a. deciding that actually they're down with Brie Larson and Captain Marvel after all, and b. showing that don't actually know squat about the comics they claim to be defending from the horror of Muslim main characters "replacing" white ones.

I haven't seen that yet, the revisionism on Brie Larson, but I don't doom scroll much. Much, I still fall down holes now and then.

Mostly I'm in a weird version of the allegory of the cave. I don't see the shitty reactions, I see the reactions to the shitty reactions, essentially the 'shadow' of people being shitty via people reacting to them being shitty.

Holy crap, the whole "Allegory of the Cave" comparison thing occurred to me as I was writing this and now I'm realizing it explains so much about social media and perception...it seems so obvious now I'm sure there's already plenty of writing about it I can go look up.

Moving on...

So I haven't seen the inevitably racist shit they've been saying about Kamala despite that character being popular enough that you don't have to have read the comics to know what she's about long before her series popped up. It surprises me that it would be enough to unseat their unhinged rage at Brie Larson for suggesting that maybe Wrinkle in Time wasn't written for 40 year old white dudes and perhaps a little diversity in professional critics wouldn't be the worst thing.

I do think, going back to the point I was trying to make before I blew my own mind, that maybe sometimes we end up elevating voices unintentionally in our hot foot to be outraged at outrage. Like if some dateless wonder with 2,000 followers, most of them bots or businesses or models who want you to like their profile with a link to their OnlyFans says a shitty thing, that shouldn't be 'man bites dog.'

Like, I feel that we need to move the 'people are saying...' bar up quite a few notches. I mean, in clickbaitland this shit is fucking gold. Find anyone anywhere saying something coo coo for coco puffs, write a salacious headline and a few paragraphs framing the controversy then rake in the clicks as people either agree or get outraged at the perceived outrage.

I wonder if it's just the paparazzi problem. Most of us find the idea of following around someone who sings or is on some show or whatever and documenting every moment they have outside of their house as fucking weird. That level of celebrity interest, never mind invasion, seems dumb. But there are enough people who buy those tabloids or watch TMZ that they can eat our disgust at their existence for brunch and not lose a wink of sleep. There will always be someone to click that headline, "Twitter Fans Say Shitty Thing" that those headlines are here to stay.

Like...the supposed blowback against Third Sister over at Kenobi. All I have ever seen were people reacting to it and calling it out. I mean, maybe she has an assistant pruning the comments on Instagram but even there I couldn't find anything other than love and support for what she was having to put up with but not what she was actually putting up with.

I'm not saying no one ever said something shitty to her, and maybe when they did the support she got drown them out which probably has value, but I have to piece together what happened by looking at the white blood cells that wiped it out.

Maybe white blood cells was a shitty choice in a reaction to racism. Whatever, I'm rambling at this point about this recurring thing with outrage and the outrage at the outrage. Something I think would be worth considering at least when these things pop up.