MCU/Superhero Discussion Thread

[Lord Dominator]

Not believing what is clearly a lie

[Battlion]

Watched it as part of a double bill - the film literally gave me shivers at so many points.... So many different emotions at differing parts... laughing one minute to being close to tears in others... beautiful culmination of 11 years of the MCU however.

Can also confirm, no end credit scene... but the first half of the credits is beautiful and I highly recommend you stick around for them.

Obvious spoilers and thoughts below

The amount of parallels with Infinity War was beautifully done, acquiring the soul stone and immediately after, the dusting of the army etc - additionally I’m just really happy that Steve got to “have a life” and that he is almost certainly the husband that Peggy would never speak about!

[Lord Dominator]

Seems Endgame already has China's opening weekend record with 107+ million or so.

[Valentine Z]

BTW, no end credits scene

What is this heresy? No post-credit scenes in a MARVEL movie???

Man, Hell must have frozen over.

[Pilipinas and Malaya]

BTW, no end credits scene

What is this heresy? No post-credit scenes in a MARVEL movie???

Man, Hell must have frozen over.

After all, the ninth level of hell is frozen anyways.

Also, I’m watching this weekend. I accidentally saw a spoiler and I’m mad.

[The Huskar Social Union]

It was pretty good, i liked it a lot.

[Platypus Bureaucracy]

Hmm. One of those films that, the more I think about it, the less sure I am it works. Like, there are the rousing action moments and the contemplative character moments, and I'm struggling to draw a link between them.

It was definitely fun, though. Less predictable too, and the stakes felt more real. I'm not great at identifying the cinematography stuff, so take this with a pinch of salt, but it felt like a visual improvement on IW--a bit more Whedon-y, maybe?

I have no doubt that both the general audience and core fans will overwhelmingly love it ('cept maybe the ultra-reactionaries because of one or two things). But...I dunno. Maybe I need to see it again.

Also, I feel like we should not think about "plot holes". Like, at all. Which is true of all films, but especially this one.

[Battlion]

Hmm. One of those films that, the more I think about it, the less sure I am it works. Like, there are the rousing action moments and the contemplative character moments, and I'm struggling to draw a link between them.

It was definitely fun, though. Less predictable too, and the stakes felt more real. I'm not great at identifying the cinematography stuff, so take this with a pinch of salt, but it felt like a visual improvement on IW--a bit more Whedon-y, maybe?

I have no doubt that both the general audience and core fans will overwhelmingly love it ('cept maybe the ultra-reactionaries because of one or two things). But...I dunno. Maybe I need to see it again.

Also, I feel like we should not think about "plot holes". Like, at all. Which is true of all films, but especially this one.

See, that’s interesting... because the more I’ve thought about it I’ve come to the opposite conclusion that it does work. There are things that if you do enough looking into it that do fit perfectly.

I’m glad I’ve avoided anything even remotely spoiler-y because it only helped my enjoyment, and you’re right the effects did feel like an improvement.

Can anyone identify to me the Stan Lee cameo? I’m not sure when it was, but I think I was caught up in everything else to figure out when it was. Additionally, I’m already noticing scenes in trailers that were edited or just weren’t present

[Infected Mushroom]

I watched the Avengers movie, the final one with the Infinity Stones at the cinema.

It was a very very entertaining movie.

VERY UNFORTUNATELY I made the very big strategic mistake of drinking two massive Grapefruit soda drinks during the theatre run.

When Thanos showed up for the final battle of the movie, I realised that I was on the very verge of EXPLODING on my seat.

"I can get through this... I can get through this... I can get through this... I CAN GET THROUGH THIS!"

I enjoyed the final battle sequence and the concluding arc/epilogues for the characters (it was all very well made and acted and staged)... but only to the extent that I could while hoping that the credits would show up so I can make a sprint for the washrooms.

When the end credit finally hit the screen, I actually had difficulty getting up (it was surprisingly painful) but I still managed to get to the washroom in 2nd place.

GREAT MOVIE THOUGH

[Platypus Bureaucracy]

Hmm. One of those films that, the more I think about it, the less sure I am it works. Like, there are the rousing action moments and the contemplative character moments, and I'm struggling to draw a link between them.

It was definitely fun, though. Less predictable too, and the stakes felt more real. I'm not great at identifying the cinematography stuff, so take this with a pinch of salt, but it felt like a visual improvement on IW--a bit more Whedon-y, maybe?

I have no doubt that both the general audience and core fans will overwhelmingly love it ('cept maybe the ultra-reactionaries because of one or two things). But...I dunno. Maybe I need to see it again.

Also, I feel like we should not think about "plot holes". Like, at all. Which is true of all films, but especially this one.

See, that’s interesting... because the more I’ve thought about it I’ve come to the opposite conclusion that it does work. There are things that if you do enough looking into it that do fit perfectly.

I’m glad I’ve avoided anything even remotely spoiler-y because it only helped my enjoyment, and you’re right the effects did feel like an improvement.

Can anyone identify to me the Stan Lee cameo? I’m not sure when it was, but I think I was caught up in everything else to figure out when it was. Additionally, I’m already noticing scenes in trailers that were edited or just weren’t present

Stan Lee:

A de-aged version was driving a bus in the '70s. He shouted "make love, not war".

On meaning:

I really need to see some reviews from proper critics, and admittedly I've only had an hour or so to think about, and none of that has been fully awake, but take Tony saying "I am Iron Man" just before he snaps. It's cool, a nice bookend, and I predicted it in the moment, so that's cool.

But...what does it mean? Either as a response to Thanos, or as the climax of Tony's nine-film long arc? It feels like it's supposed to be a big "I am a Jedi, like my father before me" moment, but it isn't.

[The Huskar Social Union]

Hmm. One of those films that, the more I think about it, the less sure I am it works. Like, there are the rousing action moments and the contemplative character moments, and I'm struggling to draw a link between them.

It was definitely fun, though. Less predictable too, and the stakes felt more real. I'm not great at identifying the cinematography stuff, so take this with a pinch of salt, but it felt like a visual improvement on IW--a bit more Whedon-y, maybe?

I have no doubt that both the general audience and core fans will overwhelmingly love it ('cept maybe the ultra-reactionaries because of one or two things). But...I dunno. Maybe I need to see it again.

Also, I feel like we should not think about "plot holes". Like, at all. Which is true of all films, but especially this one.

See, that’s interesting... because the more I’ve thought about it I’ve come to the opposite conclusion that it does work. There are things that if you do enough looking into it that do fit perfectly.

I’m glad I’ve avoided anything even remotely spoiler-y because it only helped my enjoyment, and you’re right the effects did feel like an improvement.

Can anyone identify to me the Stan Lee cameo? I’m not sure when it was, but I think I was caught up in everything else to figure out when it was. Additionally, I’m already noticing scenes in trailers that were edited or just weren’t present

When Cap and Stark go to get more pym particles he drives a bus or a car past the entrance of the military base and yelled make love not war or something.

[The Huskar Social Union]

I thought Captain Marvel would have been in the movie a lot more, she was barely in it. Showed up at the start for like 10 minutes then was gone until like the last 10 minutes. That was underwhelming, though her appearance in the final fight was awesome, especially when all the artillery guns on Thanos' ship just aimed up and began opening on her as she charged in, that was such a cool moment.

I quite liked how they brought in an alternate reality thanos instead of going back in time to fight the original thanos. I dont know why i just thought that was a really neat idea and how he switched his plan to just kill everything and start again once he saw his plan to kill half of everything would be foiled even if he won.

Ironman's death was really good, very emotional and i thought it was done super well. Though who the fuck was that random teenager behind the guardians at his funeral? I literally have no idea who that was. I wish a few more people died though, because really it was Ironman, Vision, Natasha and Loki died. Gamora's death was undone basically by her alternate self, thought maybe a few more of the side characters might have died but ah well.

Might add more on here later. Good movie, very fun.

Highlight at the start of the movie was a dude going "Yeooooo" when the age certificate popped up and the whole audience started laughing

[Forsher]

See, that’s interesting... because the more I’ve thought about it I’ve come to the opposite conclusion that it does work. There are things that if you do enough looking into it that do fit perfectly.

I’m glad I’ve avoided anything even remotely spoiler-y because it only helped my enjoyment, and you’re right the effects did feel like an improvement.

Can anyone identify to me the Stan Lee cameo? I’m not sure when it was, but I think I was caught up in everything else to figure out when it was. Additionally, I’m already noticing scenes in trailers that were edited or just weren’t present

Stan Lee:

A de-aged version was driving a bus in the '70s. He shouted "make love, not war".

On meaning:

I really need to see some reviews from proper critics, and admittedly I've only had an hour or so to think about, and none of that has been fully awake, but take Tony saying "I am Iron Man" just before he snaps. It's cool, a nice bookend, and I predicted it in the moment, so that's cool.

But...what does it mean? Either as a response to Thanos, or as the climax of Tony's nine-film long arc? It feels like it's supposed to be a big "I am a Jedi, like my father before me" moment, but it isn't.

I see the in universe explanation as a rebuke to Thanos' arrogance. He calls himself inevitable but he doesn't matter because Tony's Iron Man. The explanation for us is that "This is the same character we know. Arrogant but victorious".

I disagree with plot holes. They almost always matter and that daft video by Patrick H Willems is particularly bad since when it tried to use an example of an actual plot hole that didn't matter it chose an example from Die Hard that not only isn't a plothole but is, in fact, a point that was painstakingly explained in the film. (Incidentally, Patrick H Willems has a three part video series about the MCU as a whole which is a lot better, especially the third video... ignoring the interview.) That people are bad at identifying plot holes isn't a problem with plot holes as a criticism of a film. There's a reason why Willems' video tried to find examples of actual plot holes and talk about them. It's a wrong video but it's not a stupid one.

Endgame is a film that specifically sets up a vision of what time travel that can and should be and goes out of its way to, as they say, throw shade at several other time travel films. It is also a film that specifically creates the additional burden of saving the branching realities too. The scene with the Ancient One and Bruce is a really good... and could prove to be seriously under-rated... scene. The Ancient One refuses to give Bruce the Time Stone unless he also acts in the interest of the branching reality. In this moment, we create the further burden of what saving the world means for this film.

If this film doesn't make logical sense, then the promises that are established in these moments are unfulfilled. The film essentially goes out of its way to make any plot holes that it may have into thematic problems. Compare Looper which literally makes the opposite case. The older version of the character pretty much says "we're not going to set up the rules: they don't matter". This film? Much more Deja Vu (which is really insistent about The Rules) than Looper.

Now, I really am not sure if there's a way to fix the branching timeline Past!Thanos came from since they change quite a bit. I'm not even sure I follow what happens with it. But it's not really a plot hole because the film does all this stuff off-screen. However long it takes is what Bruce says about Cap's journey back in the past. We can allow ourselves the conceit that Cap manages to make it all work. It's not all satisfying since there are some interesting problems to explore in there... Loki's escape is also an open question... but we can do it.

Here's a real potential plot hole related to Past!Thanos. Whether or not they should have even been able to return to the main timeline after Thanos learns about Nebula? Much less clear. If Whedon had made this film I think I know how it would have worked... Tony would have sent Thanos back knowing exactly what happens but forced to act in the same way since that's something Whedon actually did in a comic he wrote once. I don't know if this is an actual plot hole. I've seen the film once. That I'm left unsure if it is a plothole after this single viewing is a great demonstration of why plotholes matter... that means the film has put an idea in my head and failed to give me a resolution to the point. Films that want you to ask questions let you know what the questions you should ask are. Now, sure, maybe the answer is obvious and I just haven't understood, which is another reason why I am saying all I can do is leave it as a question. Is this a plot hole? Or isn't it? But I do know if it is a plot hole then I ought to care about it.

There are clear problems with the contribution of both Infinity War and Endgame to the wider MCU. This is why I brought up that video series, actually. Black Panther is far from my favourite MCU film but Willems makes the point that really on BP and Ragnarok exploit the concept and canon of the MCU fully. I really liked that point and I completely agree. Infinity War and Endgame have a tendency to give the audience something so awesome that they either forget or forgive its uneasy relationship with what we've already seen.

Take Hulk. In TIH Bruce is trying to do everything he can to get rid of the Hulk. He neither succeeds at this nor has the same point of view at the end of the movie. I think to a large extent Bruce learns that sometimes Hulk's necessary and that trying to do something about Hulk is more likely to create the conditions that necessitate Hulk. This is also a lesson learnt by Ross. Consequently, the Bruce/Hulk we meet in Avengers has an evolved internal relationship, which manifests as the iconic line "I'm always angry". By Ultron Bruce sees that Hulk can have a place in the world and in contact with Tony develops a contingency approach. This contingency approach is shown to fail completely and if we read the events of Ragnarok backwards it's clear that the Hulk aspect of the personality is dissatisfied.

The Hulk of Ragnarok has essentially been sulking for years. Endgame is right to point out that this is basically what happens with Thor in Endgame. Which is a mistake because the MCU pursues two completely inconsistent approaches to Bruce/Hulk in Ragnarok and Thor in Endgame. Black Panther, Inhumans and Ragnarok all have similar situations which are treated similarly. There is a thematic inconsistency between Bruce giving up what amounts to himself out of a greater external concern and Thor's running off to be some knight errant or whatever with the Guardians. It's not just inconsistency, it's opposed. Hulk also becomes Bruce in Ragnarok because Thor's appeals to the wider connections Hulk and Bruce have and what I'm going to call the greater good. It's a very interesting arc for Hulk across these four movies.

tl;dr... "must destroy Hulk," "I am angry," "Hulk's home is illusory" and finally "Hulk is needed"

Then we get to Infinity War. What happens to Hulk in this film? Well, Thanos beats the crap out of him and everyone goes, "Hulk's scared into his shell". The directors try to word of god their way out of this... not a good sign... and say that their intention was actually, "Hulk's tired of being used". Okay, cool, except this is pretty much a refutation of Ragnarok and it's much less obvious. Unlike what they did with Thor in Infinity War, this is not even cool. It's actually vastly less interesting than the alternative of, you know, seeing Hulk. But, hey, IW is a Part I film, we'll get a proper Hulk story in Part II.

Oh, boy, I feel so dumb for thinking that now.

There is no story for Hulk in Endgame. In fact, Hulk appears to be dead. That's just Bruce. That's not a Smart Hulk. That's not a Hulk Banner fusion. That's Bruce wearing Hulk's skin. I half wonder if he turned back if he'd be a rage machine in Bruce's body. And to the extent that we come to understand any of this? Well it's a single expositionary conversation which reveals that none of Banner's 7 PhD's are in any area of physics related to time travel. And he doesn't even get it right either! Tony has to come in and save the day. So, Endgame doesn't give us a Bruce or Hulk story... just a conversation with Thor and the sacrifice of his arm.

I get the impression the Russos don't like the Hulk character or have no idea what to do with him. As I said, while they systematically undo as much of Ragnarok as possible usually the mechanics are cooler than this. Hell, at least Bruce took out Black Dwarf... sorry Cull Obsidian... in IW.

[Platypus Bureaucracy]

I thought Captain Marvel would have been in the movie a lot more, she was barely in it. Showed up at the start for like 10 minutes then was gone until like the last 10 minutes. That was underwhelming, though her appearance in the final fight was awesome, especially when all the artillery guns on Thanos' ship just aimed up and began opening on her as she charged in, that was such a cool moment.

I quite liked how they brought in an alternate reality thanos instead of going back in time to fight the original thanos. I dont know why i just thought that was a really neat idea and how he switched his plan to just kill everything and start again once he saw his plan to kill half of everything would be foiled even if he won.

Ironman's death was really good, very emotional and i thought it was done super well. Though who the fuck was that random teenager behind the guardians at his funeral? I literally have no idea who that was. I wish a few more people died though, because really it was Ironman, Vision, Natasha and Loki died. Gamora's death was undone basically by her alternate self, thought maybe a few more of the side characters might have died but ah well.

Might add more on here later. Good movie, very fun.

Highlight at the start of the movie was a dude going "Yeooooo" when the age certificate popped up and the whole audience started laughing

I wonder how much input James Gunn had on this (he has a producer credit). Because Gamora's death isn't really undone; she isn't the Gamora who's been on two films worth of journey with the Guardians. I hope that doesn't fuck up anything he was planning, because GotG is easily the best MCU subseries. It would be a shame to spoil that by putting the writer somewhere he didn't want to be.

[Forsher]

I thought Captain Marvel would have been in the movie a lot more, she was barely in it. Showed up at the start for like 10 minutes then was gone until like the last 10 minutes. That was underwhelming, though her appearance in the final fight was awesome, especially when all the artillery guns on Thanos' ship just aimed up and began opening on her as she charged in, that was such a cool moment.

I quite liked how they brought in an alternate reality thanos instead of going back in time to fight the original thanos. I dont know why i just thought that was a really neat idea and how he switched his plan to just kill everything and start again once he saw his plan to kill half of everything would be foiled even if he won.

Ironman's death was really good, very emotional and i thought it was done super well. Though who the fuck was that random teenager behind the guardians at his funeral? I literally have no idea who that was. I wish a few more people died though, because really it was Ironman, Vision, Natasha and Loki died. Gamora's death was undone basically by her alternate self, thought maybe a few more of the side characters might have died but ah well.

Might add more on here later. Good movie, very fun.

Highlight at the start of the movie was a dude going "Yeooooo" when the age certificate popped up and the whole audience started laughing

I wonder how much input James Gunn had on this (he has a producer credit). Because Gamora's death isn't really undone; she isn't the Gamora who's been on two films worth of journey with the Guardians. I hope that doesn't fuck up anything he was planning, because GotG is easily the best MCU subseries. It would be a shame to spoil that by putting the writer somewhere he didn't want to be.

There is room for a conspiracy theory here.

[Liriena]

Just a few more hours for my screening. Can't wait to be able to click on all your spoilers.

[Skylus]

I have an idea for a Zelda/GotG (eventual MCU) crossover.
I plan for it to be
arc 1 - Sometime after GotG2
arc 2 - IW
arc 3 - End game
rest of arcs - ?

I've been thinking about this for a while now, some ideas below

So there's six Infinity Stones, right? Wrong, there are in fact SEVEN of them.
Mind, Time, Space, Soul, Power, and Reality
but there's a seventh one - the Force Stone.

(I need to go to work now but I shall continue this post when I get back home, if this does not fit in this thread, please tell me what thread it belongs in and I shall move this post to the correct thread, thanks)

[HC Eredivisie]

Haven't seen it yet so I'm ignoring everything until tomorrow, but is there not even a mid-credit scene? We can just walk out after 181 minutes?

[Platypus Bureaucracy]

Haven't seen it yet so I'm ignoring everything until tomorrow, but is there not even a mid-credit scene? We can just walk out after 181 minutes?

There's no mid-credits scene, but as always the first part of the credits is pretty visually enjoyable.

But yeah, if you're bursting for the loo you can leave right away.

[HC Eredivisie]

Thanks, fortunately the cinema has a break during every movie.

[Battlion]

I thought Captain Marvel would have been in the movie a lot more, she was barely in it. Showed up at the start for like 10 minutes then was gone until like the last 10 minutes. That was underwhelming, though her appearance in the final fight was awesome, especially when all the artillery guns on Thanos' ship just aimed up and began opening on her as she charged in, that was such a cool moment.

I quite liked how they brought in an alternate reality thanos instead of going back in time to fight the original thanos. I dont know why i just thought that was a really neat idea and how he switched his plan to just kill everything and start again once he saw his plan to kill half of everything would be foiled even if he won.

Ironman's death was really good, very emotional and i thought it was done super well. Though who the fuck was that random teenager behind the guardians at his funeral? I literally have no idea who that was. I wish a few more people died though, because really it was Ironman, Vision, Natasha and Loki died. Gamora's death was undone basically by her alternate self, thought maybe a few more of the side characters might have died but ah well.

Might add more on here later. Good movie, very fun.

Highlight at the start of the movie was a dude going "Yeooooo" when the age certificate popped up and the whole audience started laughing

I wondered too who the kid was, it’s the little kid from Iron Man 3 who Tony befriends! Same actor I believe.

Although Gamora, the gamora we know is still dead. That hasn’t been undone. Loki also... is still around now and from where it branches off at the timeline will be considerably less friendly than he became by ragnarok etc

[Platypus Bureaucracy]

I thought Captain Marvel would have been in the movie a lot more, she was barely in it. Showed up at the start for like 10 minutes then was gone until like the last 10 minutes. That was underwhelming, though her appearance in the final fight was awesome, especially when all the artillery guns on Thanos' ship just aimed up and began opening on her as she charged in, that was such a cool moment.

I quite liked how they brought in an alternate reality thanos instead of going back in time to fight the original thanos. I dont know why i just thought that was a really neat idea and how he switched his plan to just kill everything and start again once he saw his plan to kill half of everything would be foiled even if he won.

Ironman's death was really good, very emotional and i thought it was done super well. Though who the fuck was that random teenager behind the guardians at his funeral? I literally have no idea who that was. I wish a few more people died though, because really it was Ironman, Vision, Natasha and Loki died. Gamora's death was undone basically by her alternate self, thought maybe a few more of the side characters might have died but ah well.

Might add more on here later. Good movie, very fun.

Highlight at the start of the movie was a dude going "Yeooooo" when the age certificate popped up and the whole audience started laughing

I wondered too who the kid was, it’s the little kid from Iron Man 3 who Tony befriends! Same actor I believe.

Although Gamora, the gamora we know is still dead. That hasn’t been undone. Loki also... is still around now and from where it branches off at the timeline will be considerably less friendly than he became by ragnarok etc

I don't think Loki is alive. I think they said you couldn't change the past, or something? Anyway, Loki was still in his cell in the Dark World timeline. I don't know if he's alive in an alternate universe or what.

[Battlion]

I wondered too who the kid was, it’s the little kid from Iron Man 3 who Tony befriends! Same actor I believe.

Although Gamora, the gamora we know is still dead. That hasn’t been undone. Loki also... is still around now and from where it branches off at the timeline will be considerably less friendly than he became by ragnarok etc

I don't think Loki is alive. I think they said you couldn't change the past, or something? Anyway, Loki was still in his cell in the Dark World timeline. I don't know if he's alive in an alternate universe or what.

He escapes with the space stone in 2012 NYC, I think it’s a branch off... but there’s a version of him still alive... they couldn’t change the past for anyone who sacrificed themselves for the soul stone... hence why Nat nor the original version of gamora could return despite Bruce hoping to bring Nat back when he snaps

[The Huskar Social Union]

I don't think Loki is alive. I think they said you couldn't change the past, or something? Anyway, Loki was still in his cell in the Dark World timeline. I don't know if he's alive in an alternate universe or what.

He escapes with the space stone in 2012 NYC, I think it’s a branch off... but there’s a version of him still alive... they couldn’t change the past for anyone who sacrificed themselves for the soul stone... hence why Nat nor the original version of gamora could return despite Bruce hoping to bring Nat back when he snaps

I think thats just in that reality though, which Cap went back to fix.

[Fartsniffage]

I thought Captain Marvel would have been in the movie a lot more, she was barely in it. Showed up at the start for like 10 minutes then was gone until like the last 10 minutes. That was underwhelming, though her appearance in the final fight was awesome, especially when all the artillery guns on Thanos' ship just aimed up and began opening on her as she charged in, that was such a cool moment.

I quite liked how they brought in an alternate reality thanos instead of going back in time to fight the original thanos. I dont know why i just thought that was a really neat idea and how he switched his plan to just kill everything and start again once he saw his plan to kill half of everything would be foiled even if he won.

Ironman's death was really good, very emotional and i thought it was done super well. Though who the fuck was that random teenager behind the guardians at his funeral? I literally have no idea who that was. I wish a few more people died though, because really it was Ironman, Vision, Natasha and Loki died. Gamora's death was undone basically by her alternate self, thought maybe a few more of the side characters might have died but ah well.

Might add more on here later. Good movie, very fun.

Highlight at the start of the movie was a dude going "Yeooooo" when the age certificate popped up and the whole audience started laughing

I'm pretty sure that random teenager was the kid from Iron Man 3 who lent him the watch.