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The Arrowverse Thread

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Eahland
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Postby Eahland » Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:00 pm

Being better than Season 1 of Batwoman was not exactly a high bar to clear, but Season 2 is pretty spectacularly failing to do it.

I'm with Alice here. Can we just create in our minds a world where Kate Kane never existed, and stop making new girl play second banana to her ghost and her crazy sister?
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Ameriganastan
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Postby Ameriganastan » Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:03 pm

Eahland wrote:Being better than Season 1 of Batwoman was not exactly a high bar to clear, but Season 2 is pretty spectacularly failing to do it.

I'm with Alice here. Can we just create in our minds a world where Kate Kane never existed, and stop making new girl play second banana to her ghost and her crazy sister?

Can we just get rid of Alice? Like why is she still here?
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Eahland
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Postby Eahland » Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:10 pm

Ameriganastan wrote:
Eahland wrote:Being better than Season 1 of Batwoman was not exactly a high bar to clear, but Season 2 is pretty spectacularly failing to do it.

I'm with Alice here. Can we just create in our minds a world where Kate Kane never existed, and stop making new girl play second banana to her ghost and her crazy sister?

Can we just get rid of Alice? Like why is she still here?

I'm assuming the actual answer to that is "because Rachel Skarsten has a contract, and they can't fire her just because her character's motivation up and quit." What I don't get is why she's now the main protagonist of the show, especially after they got rid of the Batwoman who had conflicts of interest in actually bringing her serial-killing ass to justice, and replaced her with a Batwoman who explicitly wants her dead. They had a perfect opportunity to throw out all the nonsense that made the first season so incredibly dumb and start over, but instead they've decided to focus obsessively on the nonsense and not give the new girl a chance to get out from under Kate Kane's shadow.

(I'm tempted to graph how many times they say Kate's name in any given episode vs. how many times they say Ryan's, but that would require watching it again.)
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Ameriganastan
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Postby Ameriganastan » Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:27 pm

Eahland wrote:
Ameriganastan wrote:Can we just get rid of Alice? Like why is she still here?

I'm assuming the actual answer to that is "because Rachel Skarsten has a contract, and they can't fire her just because her character's motivation up and quit." What I don't get is why she's now the main protagonist of the show, especially after they got rid of the Batwoman who had conflicts of interest in actually bringing her serial-killing ass to justice, and replaced her with a Batwoman who explicitly wants her dead. They had a perfect opportunity to throw out all the nonsense that made the first season so incredibly dumb and start over, but instead they've decided to focus obsessively on the nonsense and not give the new girl a chance to get out from under Kate Kane's shadow.

(I'm tempted to graph how many times they say Kate's name in any given episode vs. how many times they say Ryan's, but that would require watching it again.)

Yeah, it really feels like they're just using Ryan as a stopgap until we get new Kate. Which sucks, cause I actually like Ryan better.
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Edward Richtofen wrote:Ameri's so tough that he criticized an Insane Asylum and was promptly let out

Ameri does the impossible.
Fire the Ameri.
Sinovet wrote:Ameri's like Honey badger. He don't give a fuck.

Krazakistan wrote: He is a force of negativity for the sake of negativity

Onocarcass wrote:Trying to change Ameri, is like trying to drag a 2 ton block of lead with your d**k.

Immoren wrote:When Ameri says something is shit it's good and when Ameri says some thing is good it's great. *nods*

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Postby Cannot think of a name » Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:55 pm

I may be reaching my upper limit on how many times I can watch Barry throw a tantrum because his confidence has been shaken. "What if I can't-" Then we all fucking die, Barry. Like the last six or seven times you've gone through this shit. Go do it or don't.
"...I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season." -MLK Jr.

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Juristonia
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Postby Juristonia » Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:36 am

Cannot think of a name wrote:I may be reaching my upper limit on how many times I can watch Barry throw a tantrum because his confidence has been shaken. "What if I can't-" Then we all fucking die, Barry. Like the last six or seven times you've gone through this shit. Go do it or don't.

It's reaching Arrow's "But what if I'm bad because DaRkNeSs iN mE" levels.
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Liriena wrote:Say what you will about fascists: they are remarkably consistent even after several decades of failing spectacularly elsewhere.

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Ifreann wrote:Indeed, as far as I can recall only one poster has ever supported legalising bestiality, and he was fucking his cat and isn't welcome here any more, in no small part, I imagine, because he kept going on about how he was fucking his cat.

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The Restored Danelaw
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Postby The Restored Danelaw » Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:44 am

Juristonia wrote:
Cannot think of a name wrote:I may be reaching my upper limit on how many times I can watch Barry throw a tantrum because his confidence has been shaken. "What if I can't-" Then we all fucking die, Barry. Like the last six or seven times you've gone through this shit. Go do it or don't.

It's reaching Arrow's "But what if I'm bad because DaRkNeSs iN mE" levels.

Didn't he literally spend the first 2-3 seasons cutting a bloody highway through the city's criminals (and oftentime bystanders?)
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Yorwick Daily: Suez Garrison will be forstarked into a whole regiment as spanning with Egypt grows for the first time since the Twithe Suezcrig. | Japan's Pancerfare Nationalteam bests Bulgarland in 138 minutes, setting the new highlisting for Shortest Pancerfare Game in gesheede. | The Allgemean Forsamling to meet for a Needstandly Sitting to 'find a leasing to the Indish Fraign' as the ongoing uprising threatens to tear asunder frith in Asia. 13 lands have thrown their lot with Japan and plan to upmarch soldiers to bring back order to the halfdole. | Today on YBG 1: Serbia's plight: Shan't be made a limbstate of the Europish Bound until it has banded with the OFN, won't be made a limb of the OFN until it has been taken in by the Bound.

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Juristonia
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Postby Juristonia » Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:44 am

And another 5-6 seasons being a mopey dick about it, yes.

Don't get me wrong, the moral ambiguity isn't what bothered me about the show. The way they went about it did.
Damn the man! Save the Empire!
Free Soviets wrote:facts are meaningless. you could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!

Liriena wrote:Say what you will about fascists: they are remarkably consistent even after several decades of failing spectacularly elsewhere.

Geniasis wrote:Cite anything to back this up. Please. Even if it's in crayon. Even if all you're supporting is that period at the end of your sentence. Give something concrete.

Ifreann wrote:Indeed, as far as I can recall only one poster has ever supported legalising bestiality, and he was fucking his cat and isn't welcome here any more, in no small part, I imagine, because he kept going on about how he was fucking his cat.

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Ameriganastan
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Postby Ameriganastan » Fri Apr 09, 2021 5:02 am

On the upside, at least Cisco has finally stopped being such a mopey tool. Ever since his new nerdy sidekick came along, he's been acting like the Cisco I used to like.
The Incompetent Critic
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Eric Lumen: Ultimate Chad
Force of nature.
The Ameri Train.
The Ameri song
Tsundere Ameri.
HulkAmeri
Ameri goes to court.
Universal Constant
Edward Richtofen wrote:Ameri's so tough that he criticized an Insane Asylum and was promptly let out

Ameri does the impossible.
Fire the Ameri.
Sinovet wrote:Ameri's like Honey badger. He don't give a fuck.

Krazakistan wrote: He is a force of negativity for the sake of negativity

Onocarcass wrote:Trying to change Ameri, is like trying to drag a 2 ton block of lead with your d**k.

Immoren wrote:When Ameri says something is shit it's good and when Ameri says some thing is good it's great. *nods*

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The Knockout Gun Gals
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Postby The Knockout Gun Gals » Sun Apr 11, 2021 6:45 am

Ameriganastan wrote:Just caught up with last week's Flash.
And were they seriously just gonna let Abra Kadabra go? Like I get it, tragic backstory and all. But he still murdered two people. And they called him a hero...not feeling it.



Well, Batwoman finally has a fun villain. More Black Mask, please.


I think Batman-verse shows (Gotham, Batwoman) are goos with their Black Mask villain. In fact, same thing happened with Red Hood movie and the Arkhamverse game. A bit off topic there, but yeah.
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So Covenant declare a crusade and then wage jihad? :p

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Postby Upper Yationd » Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:08 am

Finally a forum for Arrowverse, Personally I believe the Flash is the best out of all the CW shows. As far as Arrow goes, I liked it out first but it seemed to turn into Batman for me and the Arrow was not nearly as goofy or funny as he was in the comics.

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Postby Cannot think of a name » Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:55 pm

Upper Yationd wrote:Finally a forum for Arrowverse, Personally I believe the Flash is the best out of all the CW shows. As far as Arrow goes, I liked it out first but it seemed to turn into Batman for me and the Arrow was not nearly as goofy or funny as he was in the comics.

The CW turned Green Arrow into archery Batman but without the counter culture/critique streak he's had in the comics.
"...I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season." -MLK Jr.

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The Knockout Gun Gals
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Postby The Knockout Gun Gals » Sun Apr 11, 2021 9:54 pm

Cannot think of a name wrote:
Upper Yationd wrote:Finally a forum for Arrowverse, Personally I believe the Flash is the best out of all the CW shows. As far as Arrow goes, I liked it out first but it seemed to turn into Batman for me and the Arrow was not nearly as goofy or funny as he was in the comics.

The CW turned Green Arrow into archery Batman but without the counter culture/critique streak he's had in the comics.


CW Arrow is just too gloomy for me.
The Knockout Gun Gals wrote:
TriStates wrote:Covenant declare a crusade, and wage jihad against the UNSC and Insurrectionists for 30 years.

So Covenant declare a crusade and then wage jihad? :p

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Ameriganastan
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Postby Ameriganastan » Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:02 am

Arrow's whole gloom and doom shtick was kind of a holdover from its early days. It's easy to forget that when this whole Arrowverse deal started, they were shooting for that Dark Knight-esque gritty "realism" type of hero stuff. They just never fully let it go even when the rest of the Arrowverse was going all comic book.
The Incompetent Critic
DENVER BRONCOS fan
Eric Lumen: Ultimate Chad
Force of nature.
The Ameri Train.
The Ameri song
Tsundere Ameri.
HulkAmeri
Ameri goes to court.
Universal Constant
Edward Richtofen wrote:Ameri's so tough that he criticized an Insane Asylum and was promptly let out

Ameri does the impossible.
Fire the Ameri.
Sinovet wrote:Ameri's like Honey badger. He don't give a fuck.

Krazakistan wrote: He is a force of negativity for the sake of negativity

Onocarcass wrote:Trying to change Ameri, is like trying to drag a 2 ton block of lead with your d**k.

Immoren wrote:When Ameri says something is shit it's good and when Ameri says some thing is good it's great. *nods*

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The Restored Danelaw
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Postby The Restored Danelaw » Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:05 am

Ameriganastan wrote:Arrow's whole gloom and doom shtick was kind of a holdover from its early days. It's easy to forget that when this whole Arrowverse deal started, they were shooting for that Dark Knight-esque gritty "realism" type of hero stuff. They just never fully let it go even when the rest of the Arrowverse was going all comic book.

To be honest, even though the first two seasons were generally of a higher quality (somehow) than most of the following Arrow seasons (barring S5, and even then only nominally)... I must admit I hated the idea of gritty "Batman-esque but he kills" Green Arrow in its entirety.
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May 6, 2021
Yorwick Daily: Suez Garrison will be forstarked into a whole regiment as spanning with Egypt grows for the first time since the Twithe Suezcrig. | Japan's Pancerfare Nationalteam bests Bulgarland in 138 minutes, setting the new highlisting for Shortest Pancerfare Game in gesheede. | The Allgemean Forsamling to meet for a Needstandly Sitting to 'find a leasing to the Indish Fraign' as the ongoing uprising threatens to tear asunder frith in Asia. 13 lands have thrown their lot with Japan and plan to upmarch soldiers to bring back order to the halfdole. | Today on YBG 1: Serbia's plight: Shan't be made a limbstate of the Europish Bound until it has banded with the OFN, won't be made a limb of the OFN until it has been taken in by the Bound.

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Postby Ameriganastan » Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:08 am

The Restored Danelaw wrote:
Ameriganastan wrote:Arrow's whole gloom and doom shtick was kind of a holdover from its early days. It's easy to forget that when this whole Arrowverse deal started, they were shooting for that Dark Knight-esque gritty "realism" type of hero stuff. They just never fully let it go even when the rest of the Arrowverse was going all comic book.

To be honest, even though the first two seasons were generally of a higher quality (somehow) than most of the following Arrow seasons (barring S5, and even then only nominally)... I must admit I hated the idea of gritty "Batman-esque but he kills" Green Arrow in its entirety.

It didn't bother me until the later seasons. When Oliver, who has a body count that could fill an entire city morgue, suddenly became Mr. "Killing is wrong" moral authority guy.
Last edited by Ameriganastan on Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Incompetent Critic
DENVER BRONCOS fan
Eric Lumen: Ultimate Chad
Force of nature.
The Ameri Train.
The Ameri song
Tsundere Ameri.
HulkAmeri
Ameri goes to court.
Universal Constant
Edward Richtofen wrote:Ameri's so tough that he criticized an Insane Asylum and was promptly let out

Ameri does the impossible.
Fire the Ameri.
Sinovet wrote:Ameri's like Honey badger. He don't give a fuck.

Krazakistan wrote: He is a force of negativity for the sake of negativity

Onocarcass wrote:Trying to change Ameri, is like trying to drag a 2 ton block of lead with your d**k.

Immoren wrote:When Ameri says something is shit it's good and when Ameri says some thing is good it's great. *nods*

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Ameriganastan
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Postby Ameriganastan » Mon Apr 12, 2021 5:11 am

May 2nd! Best show is finally back.
The Incompetent Critic
DENVER BRONCOS fan
Eric Lumen: Ultimate Chad
Force of nature.
The Ameri Train.
The Ameri song
Tsundere Ameri.
HulkAmeri
Ameri goes to court.
Universal Constant
Edward Richtofen wrote:Ameri's so tough that he criticized an Insane Asylum and was promptly let out

Ameri does the impossible.
Fire the Ameri.
Sinovet wrote:Ameri's like Honey badger. He don't give a fuck.

Krazakistan wrote: He is a force of negativity for the sake of negativity

Onocarcass wrote:Trying to change Ameri, is like trying to drag a 2 ton block of lead with your d**k.

Immoren wrote:When Ameri says something is shit it's good and when Ameri says some thing is good it's great. *nods*

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Eahland
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Postby Eahland » Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:14 pm

Ameriganastan wrote:
The Restored Danelaw wrote:To be honest, even though the first two seasons were generally of a higher quality (somehow) than most of the following Arrow seasons (barring S5, and even then only nominally)... I must admit I hated the idea of gritty "Batman-esque but he kills" Green Arrow in its entirety.

It didn't bother me until the later seasons. When Oliver, who has a body count that could fill an entire city morgue, suddenly become Mr. "Killing is wrong" moral authority guy.

Yeah, end of Crisis, I was watching all these people giving heartfelt speeches about what a great guy Ollie was like, :blink: "Are we talking about the same Oliver Queen here? The dude has threatened, bullied, beaten, intimidated, or shot literally every one of you."
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The Restored Danelaw
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Postby The Restored Danelaw » Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:16 pm

Eahland wrote:
Ameriganastan wrote:It didn't bother me until the later seasons. When Oliver, who has a body count that could fill an entire city morgue, suddenly become Mr. "Killing is wrong" moral authority guy.

Yeah, end of Crisis, I was watching all these people giving heartfelt speeches about what a great guy Ollie was like, :blink: "Are we talking about the same Oliver Queen here? The dude has threatened, bullied, beaten, intimidated, or shot literally every one of you."

(In some cases, he's done all of them in specifically that order, namely Barry) I mean to be fair many of them started to hang out with Ollie after he somewhat mellowed down, so their understanding of "this guy's an actual mass murderer who's filled entire morgues in the first year of his stint as a vigilante" is mostly academic.
Last edited by The Restored Danelaw on Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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May 6, 2021
Yorwick Daily: Suez Garrison will be forstarked into a whole regiment as spanning with Egypt grows for the first time since the Twithe Suezcrig. | Japan's Pancerfare Nationalteam bests Bulgarland in 138 minutes, setting the new highlisting for Shortest Pancerfare Game in gesheede. | The Allgemean Forsamling to meet for a Needstandly Sitting to 'find a leasing to the Indish Fraign' as the ongoing uprising threatens to tear asunder frith in Asia. 13 lands have thrown their lot with Japan and plan to upmarch soldiers to bring back order to the halfdole. | Today on YBG 1: Serbia's plight: Shan't be made a limbstate of the Europish Bound until it has banded with the OFN, won't be made a limb of the OFN until it has been taken in by the Bound.

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Eahland
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Postby Eahland » Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:31 pm

The Restored Danelaw wrote:
Eahland wrote:Yeah, end of Crisis, I was watching all these people giving heartfelt speeches about what a great guy Ollie was like, :blink: "Are we talking about the same Oliver Queen here? The dude has threatened, bullied, beaten, intimidated, or shot literally every one of you."

(In some cases, he's done all of them in specifically that order, namely Barry) I mean to be fair many of them started to hang out with Ollie after he somewhat mellowed down, so their understanding of "this guy's an actual mass murderer who's filled entire morgues in the first year of his stint as a vigilante" is mostly academic.

I have to admit, watching him threaten Kara the first time they met was kind of hilarious. So... she's super-strong, almost as fast as Barry, nigh-invulnerable, flies, shoots lasers out of her eyes... and you're going to take her down with your superpowers of owning a bow and being a tremendous dick? (Note to self: Don't tell Ollie about Kryptonite.)
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The Restored Danelaw
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Postby The Restored Danelaw » Mon Apr 12, 2021 1:34 pm

Eahland wrote:
The Restored Danelaw wrote:(In some cases, he's done all of them in specifically that order, namely Barry) I mean to be fair many of them started to hang out with Ollie after he somewhat mellowed down, so their understanding of "this guy's an actual mass murderer who's filled entire morgues in the first year of his stint as a vigilante" is mostly academic.

I have to admit, watching him threaten Kara the first time they met was kind of hilarious. So... she's super-strong, almost as fast as Barry, nigh-invulnerable, flies, shoots lasers out of her eyes... and you're going to take her down with your superpowers of owning a bow and being a tremendous dick? (Note to self: Don't tell Ollie about Kryptonite.)

Given he's supposed to be the Batman of his 'verse (something that only becomes more hilarious and utterly befuddling now that Batman actually does/did exist in Arrow's universe), I'm convinced that it was yet another problem of the "genius character written by absolute mouth breathers" variety.
The Danelaw
May 6, 2021
Yorwick Daily: Suez Garrison will be forstarked into a whole regiment as spanning with Egypt grows for the first time since the Twithe Suezcrig. | Japan's Pancerfare Nationalteam bests Bulgarland in 138 minutes, setting the new highlisting for Shortest Pancerfare Game in gesheede. | The Allgemean Forsamling to meet for a Needstandly Sitting to 'find a leasing to the Indish Fraign' as the ongoing uprising threatens to tear asunder frith in Asia. 13 lands have thrown their lot with Japan and plan to upmarch soldiers to bring back order to the halfdole. | Today on YBG 1: Serbia's plight: Shan't be made a limbstate of the Europish Bound until it has banded with the OFN, won't be made a limb of the OFN until it has been taken in by the Bound.

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Eahland
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Postby Eahland » Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:14 pm

The Restored Danelaw wrote:
Eahland wrote:I have to admit, watching him threaten Kara the first time they met was kind of hilarious. So... she's super-strong, almost as fast as Barry, nigh-invulnerable, flies, shoots lasers out of her eyes... and you're going to take her down with your superpowers of owning a bow and being a tremendous dick? (Note to self: Don't tell Ollie about Kryptonite.)

Given he's supposed to be the Batman of his 'verse (something that only becomes more hilarious and utterly befuddling now that Batman actually does/did exist in Arrow's universe), I'm convinced that it was yet another problem of the "genius character written by absolute mouth breathers" variety.

I think Crisis was a mistake. There's a lot of stuff in the Arrowverse — and not just "how is Green Murder Batman the 'first hero' and all that nonsense when apparently Actual Batman already had an established career in Gotham when Kate was a little girl (and note that Clark's career is now part of the history of the merged Earth, too) — that kind of made sense when it wasn't actually one universe, but a bunch of them loosely linked together, and you could get the Justice League together if you really needed to, but it took enough space-time shenanigans that it wasn't really worth it except for major continuity-threatening events, that doesn't make any sense now that they're all on one Earth. Especially when you've got characters like Barry and Kara who are fast enough that they can pop across the continent to another show, do a buddy a solid, and be back to their own show before the end of the commercial break. Like that Arrow episode back when where Barry showed up long enough to speedblitz a castle full of ninjas and then was like, "I left the boss fight for you so you don't feel useless. I got dinner on the stove back in Central City. Catch ya later."

And obviously the top-tier heroes are busy with their own shit. Barry's gotta wangst and Kara has to keep her BFF from going bad (oh yeah and something something Lex Luthor whatever), and they can't be running around solving everyone else's problems all the time. But there's a lot of stuff going on in various shows that's big enough that we should be seeing splashes of it in the other shows, and we don't. Where are all the people using Obsidian Platinum VR lenses in Central City? If extraterrestrial immigrants are common enough to be an allegory for the regular terrestrial kind, why don't we see them in Central City or Gotham or Freeland? Why aren't any of the various reporters (seriously, does anyone in this universe have a job that isn't "superhero", "reporter", "scientist", or "cop"?) on the other shows reporting on the shit going down in Freeland? How does all the "omg a girl superhero thats unpossible" bullshit on Batwoman make any sense when Supergirl is possibly the most powerful being on the planet — and post-Crisis, always has been? (Seriously, every single superteam has at least one woman, and I think Team Flash is the only one without at least one LGBT hero.) Why haven't Kara or Barry even mentioned the apparent death of one of their fellow Paragons of Whatever? Do you have to shoot them with arrows to get in the Paragon group text? Why wasn't the Bat-team consulting with Brainy or Caitlin about Ryan's Kryptonite poisoning? (Besides the fact that they're idiots, I mean.)
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Ameriganastan
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Posts: 49308
Founded: Jul 01, 2008
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Ameriganastan » Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:56 am

Wow, The Flash brought in
Chillblaine?
That's a deep cut right there. He's like way down the totem pole of
ice themed bad guys.
Last edited by Ameriganastan on Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Eahland
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Posts: 1630
Founded: Apr 18, 2006
Libertarian Police State

Postby Eahland » Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:55 pm

Eahland wrote:(I'm tempted to graph how many times they say Kate's name in any given episode vs. how many times they say Ryan's, but that would require watching it again.)

I actually kept a running tally this week.

S2E10 - "Time Off For Good Behavior"
"Ryan" and/or "Wilder", not counting references to Enigma, who is apparently "Dr. Ryan", because their nominal main character doesn't even get to have a name that isn't overloaded: 3
"Kate": 6

At least the part of the episode that Ryan actually got to be in had a plot that wasn't all about Kate.

Ameriganastan wrote:Wow, The Flash brought in
Chillblaine?
That's a deep cut right there. He's like way down the totem pole of
ice themed bad guys.

Amused because they keep saying it like it's "Chill Blaine".

I hope Killer Frost isn't going away for good. She's a lot more fun than original-flavor Caitlin.
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