The Skyrim/Elder Scrolls thread

[Atrilan]

He does have a point here. Ulfric is a moron, I've only ever sided with him once, and that was with Hjorlen Bearclaw, the most Nordiest Nord who ever Norded.

I fail to see how.

Of course, I realize that the Thalmor are playing the Civil War. But the thing is, they're playing the Imperials as well, and they have been since they assassinated High Chancellor Ocato right after the Oblivion Crisis.

How exactly are they playing the Imperials?

[The Armed Republic of Dutch Coolness]

Well, Mede II refused to move troops off of the Cyrodill-Valenwood border, which is why most of the Imperial soldiers in Skyrim are from the province itself. My only issue with what the Empire did was signing the Concordat when they did. Both Aldmeri and Imperial legions were wiped out, so they probably could've settled for a status quo ante bellum. They would've also been able to keep Hammerfell in their grasp, which would've been quite beneficial for them.

Well, Hammerfell's resistance is still (at least partially) led by Imperial Legion troops that were 'discharged', as far as I'm aware. By signing the Concordat like he did, Mede II presented the Empire as weaker than it actually is - and made the Dominion believe they were more powerful than they actually are.

Mede II is definitely in it for the long game, and he is by far not a weak ruler at all.

He does have a point here. Ulfric is a moron, I've only ever sided with him once, and that was with Hjorlen Bearclaw, the most Nordiest Nord who ever Norded.

I fail to see how.

Of course, I realize that the Thalmor are playing the Civil War. But the thing is, they're playing the Imperials as well, and they have been since they assassinated High Chancellor Ocato right after the Oblivion Crisis.

I just explained how.

And the Thalmor are by far not playing the Imperials as much as you believe they are - the Empire has allowed them within Skyrim's borders. There's a Civil War there. The Thalmor are rooting out supporters of the rebellion that is taking place. Rebels are removed without the Empire having to do a thing. It's not the most 'popular' thing to do, but with the limited resources the Legion has in Skyrim, it's quite a useful thing for them.

[Atrilan]

Well, Mede II refused to move troops off of the Cyrodill-Valenwood border, which is why most of the Imperial soldiers in Skyrim are from the province itself. My only issue with what the Empire did was signing the Concordat when they did. Both Aldmeri and Imperial legions were wiped out, so they probably could've settled for a status quo ante bellum. They would've also been able to keep Hammerfell in their grasp, which would've been quite beneficial for them.

Well, Hammerfell's resistance is still (at least partially) led by Imperial Legion troops that were 'discharged', as far as I'm aware. By signing the Concordat like he did, Mede II presented the Empire as weaker than it actually is - and made the Dominion believe they were more powerful than they actually are.

Mede II is definitely in it for the long game, and he is by far not a weak ruler at all.

That is a very fair point, lowering the Dominion's expectations of the Empire's power. However, the question is: was surrendering to eventually catch the Dominion by surprise worth losing both Hammerfell and angering anyone who staunchly worshiped Talos? I think settling for a White Peace and use your rapidly growing population to fight back the Dominion in several decades time.

[Zanera]

Unfortunately, you kill Mede II in the last Dark Brotherhood quest, so there might be some instability in the Empire as a whole. I think the developers chose a rather delicate time in the lore to pull that sort of DB stuff on us, no matter how prestigious it might have been for an assassin to be able to kill the Emperor and get away with it. The Emperor did say he say he foresaw it or something (dragon blood and all that, I think), but if the heir don't know what he doing, he's gonna fuck up the Empire's chances.

[The Armed Republic of Dutch Coolness]

Mede II foresaw it because the Elder Council is filled with scheming bastards, especially following the instability caused by the Great War. He doesn't have dragon blood or anything, his ancestor was just a really damn good warlord (as was he himself).

[Salus Maior]

I disagree on that issue.

Of course, on the other side are incredibly weak and ineffectual leaders and a government that backstabs itself and nearly every people they rule over.

I'm not sure if you get it.

At the end of the Great War, the Empire had two choices. A) Settle for a (temporary) peace by signing the Concordat, or B) Try and push into the Dominion's lands, likely resulting in the destruction of most Legion forces without any real result.

The Empire went for A). Within a generation or two, the Empire can rebuild the Imperial Legion almost entirely, simply because of the birth rate within the Empire. It will take the Dominion a lot longer to recover, however, as they practice some very selective breeding programs and Elves in general have a much lower birthrate. The Empire is playing the long game - and large parts of the Concordat weren't even really enforced: see the Talos ban.

Of course, Ulfric doesn't see this, and instead he gets angry about a policy that isn't put into practice after taking over a city and putting anyone inside that didn't rise up to help him to the blade, thereby causing the Dominion to pressure the Empire - not yet fully recovered - into enforcing the Talos ban, which they do, to a degree. Ulfric then starts his Civil War, leaving the Empire with no choice but to expend their troops on a pointless war in their own land, only contributing to the Dominion's overall chances of success.

I do actually. I've done plenty of reading.

Those were not the only choices available to them as I see it. They had won a decisive victory against the Thalmor at the Red Ring, destroying the bulk of their forces and driving them out of Cyrodiil. If I remember correctly, there were also some Aldmeri forces in Hammerfell, but they were legions there ready to fight them (and they did regardless of the concordat, and assisted the Alik'r in driving them out).

The Empire could have remained on the defensive, or demanded more lenient peace terms right then and there. Because there's no way the Thalmor could muster another force to undergo another Cyrodiil campaign easily, because as you said and we all realize: Elven birth rate is shit. There was absolutely no reason to capitulate after the victory at Red Ring.

Also, there's very little evidence that Ulfric massacred the people of Markarth for not becoming "true nords" or whatever they said. The book in which that is mentioned was written by an Imperial author, the only other person to mention Ulfric doing anything unsavory in Markarth is the Imperial Jarl (and he doesn't mention specifics, let alone Ulfric killing civillians) and I'm fairly certain that he wasn't even present in Markarth at the time, which was ruled by the Forsworn. Unless he was part of Ulfric's warband, which would be ironic. Aside from that, no evidence of it can be found. None of the civillians or guards in Markarth mention anything of that (something that should be within living memory for them), and in fact there are indeed Stormcloak sympathizers within the city.

Not to mention that Ulfric never repeats such an action. He doesn't slaughter Whiterun, or Solitude (somewhere that's full of Imperial collaborators). I just don't think there's enough evidence to state that it's somehow a fact. It's very doubtful.

[Zanera]

Mede II foresaw it because the Elder Council is filled with scheming bastards, especially following the instability caused by the Great War. He doesn't have dragon blood or anything, his ancestor was just a really damn good warlord (as was he himself).

Does that mean that the Empire may fall then? Because if the Third Aldmeri Dominion turns out to be more competent than the Imperial leaders (especially after Mede's death) than the Thalmor might end up going full genocide mode...

[Olthar]

For me, I rank the cities on four aspects: Convenience, Merchants, House, and Appearance.

Whiterun
Convenience: 5
It is literally in the middle of the map, so it is close to everything. You're never more than one day's fast travel from anything. More than that, the house is located in the middle of the merchant district, making it incredibly quick and easy to sell off your loot.

Merchants: 4
Whiterun may not have the most gold available for buying things, but it has quite a bit. Most importantly, it has three blacksmiths and a fletcher who buy those hugely expensive weapons and armor.

House: 1
It is literally the cheapest, shittiest house in the game. There are few places for displaying treasures, and the whole place is just a dump.

Appearance: 3
Whiterun is rather run of the mill. It's not horrible, but there's nothing special about it.

Overall: 4
The house is really bad, but the convenience and merchants are far more important. This is always my base of operations.

Solitude
Convenience: 1
The city isn't close to much of anything, and the nearby terrain is difficult to walk through. Plus, the house is on the opposite side of the rather large city to the merchants. It's not great.

Merchants: 4
There's only one blacksmith and one fletcher, but there's still a decent amount of gold. The clothing store buys jewelry, which is nice. They also sell it, so there's a decent chance of finding something good.

House: 4
The house has a good number of mounts and things, but, unfortunately, most of it is in the basement. The house is beautiful, though. I also love that it has a safe. That really helps the immersion.

Appearance: 5
Solitude is definitely the prettiest city. Granted, that's mostly because the competition sucks, but it still counts. It's got a nice layout, and beautiful buildings.

Overall: 3
If the house were closer to the merchants, that would push it up to roughly equal standing with Whiterun. I'd certainly use it from time to time, but I really don't want to walk all that way over and over.

Riften
Convenience: 2
The countryside is easy to navigate, but most interesting things are still a good walk away. The house is also not terribly close to the normal merchants. The Ragged Flagon is stupidly far away. Why do I need to go through two fucking cells? The Thieves' Guild really should have just been one cell.

Merchants: 5
With a fully upgraded Ragged Flagon, Riften is the best place to sell shit off. There is so much goddamn gold here. Without the Flagon, though, it drops to a 3.

House: 2
It's only marginally better that Whiterun, and, like Solitude, most of the stuff is in the basement. The balcony is nice, though.

Appearance: 4
The city may be dirty, but I like the layout. The canals running through make it visually interesting. I like it.

Overall: 3
Riften scores big points for the merchants, but it is dragged down quite a bit by the rest. Still, it's decent enough.

Markarth
Convenience: 2
The city is out of the way, but there's enough stuff nearby, and you go there for a number of quests. It's easy to get from the house to the merchants, but not the other way around. The two blacksmiths are also irritatingly far away.

Merchants: 3
Markarth has a number of merchants, but there's not a terribly large amount of gold. If you have the fence unlocked, he's right here in town and can bump it up to a 4.

House: 5
This is the best house of them all, in my opinion. There are plenty of places for loot, and it's all right there. It makes the house feel that much more personal when you aren't forced to keep it all in the basement.

Appearance: 4
I've always been a fan of the Dwemer architectural style, and the city looks incredible. However, the mountainous nature may look good, but it is a big example of form over function. The city is a bitch to move around.

Overall: 2
Markarth scores good points in appearance and house, but it loses them in the two more important areas. It's a shame, too. I really like that house.

Windhelm
Convenience: 4
The city, itself, isn't as well located as Whiterun, but the house is almost as good. This is, of course, mostly due to Winterhold's small, boxy nature. If Markarth is form over function, Windhelm is function over form.

Merchants: 3
Windhelm is much the same boat as Markarth. There are plenty of merchants, but most don't have enough gold. I find it hard to sell things here. Adding the fence doesn't even help since she replaces one of the merchants.

House: 4
I love this house. It's almost as good as the one in Markarth. There are plenty of places for loot, including a whole three mannequins. There are probably too many dagger cases, though. I mean, you get a lot of unique daggers, but this is still kinda crazy.

Appearance: 0
Windhelm doesn't even get a 1 it's so bad. This is just an ugly, ugly city.

Overall: 2
Do not recommend.

Since the other cities don't have player homes, I don't bother to give them in depth rankings. They all suck, though. Not enough merchants.

---

As for the holds, I just rank them based on how fun they are to wander through.

Whiterun: The best. I have spent hours running through the plains. I don't even have to go in the dungeons. I just like roaming around.

Falkreath: Most of the dungeons are small with plenty of surface ruins, so exploring this hold makes me feel like I'm accomplishing a lot. I can hit five places before I have to go sell things. It's great.

Rift: The autumnal colors are great, and, like with Whiterun, I can just wander here forever. Unfortunately, the dungeons are rather densely packed, so there are constant interruptions.

Eastmarch: It's very visually interesting, and I greatly enjoy the environment. There are also lots of small places like Falkreath, so that's fun. I think Falkreath looks better, though.

Winterhold: Whether it's hopping around the glaciers or jumping from island to island, I always have fun here. I don't even know how many hours I've spent on those islands.

Everything else: Shit. I often dread exploring them.

[Salus Maior]

And the Thalmor are by far not playing the Imperials as much as you believe they are - the Empire has allowed them within Skyrim's borders. There's a Civil War there. The Thalmor are rooting out supporters of the rebellion that is taking place. Rebels are removed without the Empire having to do a thing. It's not the most 'popular' thing to do, but with the limited resources the Legion has in Skyrim, it's quite a useful thing for them.

Actually the Thalmor first started coming in right after the Markarth Incident. Which was another catalyst for the rebellion to gain popular support.

And we both know that Stormcloaks aren't the only victims of the Thalmor. Talos worshippers in general are.

And besides, they're also in Cyrodiil and have been for a while.

[Imperial isa]

Unfortunately, you kill Mede II in the last Dark Brotherhood quest, so there might be some instability in the Empire as a whole. I think the developers chose a rather delicate time in the lore to pull that sort of DB stuff on us, no matter how prestigious it might have been for an assassin to be able to kill the Emperor and get away with it. The Emperor did say he say he foresaw it or something (dragon blood and all that, I think), but if the heir don't know what he doing, he's gonna fuck up the Empire's chances.

That only happens if you don't kill them off,so that leave me to wonder how they play it out in next game if you read/hear if he was killed or not.

[Salus Maior]

Mede II is definitely in it for the long game, and he is by far not a weak ruler at all.

Regardless of whether or not he was a good leader (I don't agree that he was), he's dead now. Assassinated by a member of his own government.

Interregnum part II anyone?

[Salus Maior]

That only happens if you don't kill them off,so that leave me to wonder how they play it out in next game if you read/hear if he was killed or not.

Generally speaking, in Elder Scrolls games all the Guild endings are canon.

[The first Galactic Republic]

I have literally never seen robots in any other high fantasy world outside of D&D settings. They most certainly do not "appear a lot."

That is exactly what I mean when I say that a lot is taken from other genres. Giant robots are common in other genres. Taking them to Elder Scrolls is original for the genre, but not in general.

When are elves scary and alien outside of sci-fi?

Since their very inception. When they first began appearing in Germanic mythology they were always thought of as supernatural beings who stood separate from humanity for many reasons. In old Norse mythology they were even thought of as paganistic gods. When they first began appearing in modern high fantasy works they were already distinguished as alien people's fundamentally different from humanity. Do you really think there were no scary alien elves in fiction before the Dunmer?

Morrowind is not based on Rome.

Couldn't figure that one out? The Empire that appears in Morrowind is based on Rome. In previous depictions it was more of a generic Western European kingdom, but Rome has also influenced a lot of fictional societies.

Zelda is popular, sure, but that's just one world. How often do you see aspects Hinduism in Western media?

That has appeared a lot more than just Zelda. You can go back thousands of years and find this concept in mythology. Alexander the Great claimed descendance from Greek heroes like Hercules and Achilles in real life.

It doesn't count if you ignore the actual lore of the Tribunal to make them seem inaccurately simple.

What the Tribunal fundamentally are is nothing new in writing. I would certainly hope the writers could come up with their own original lore since what would they even be doing otherwise? It doesn't change the fact that their role in the story has been doing countless times before by similar characters not from just the fantasy genre, but going back to ancient mythology.

Oh, wow. Now that's just not even trying. This is pure willful ignorance. Dagoth-Ur was not some "angry guy" and was not "cast out." I mean, did you even pay attention?

You seem tense.

What about Dagoth Ur sets him apart from villains we've seen though? A traitorous advisor? Achieving divinity but using the power to achieve horrible ends? An extremist who believes he's doing the right thing? A villain who believes that he has been betrayed by the rest of society rather than other way around? What haven't we seen before with him?

But that's all pretty standard stuff you find in every swords and sorcery story, right?

It is though. I'm not saying Elder Scrolls doesn't have its own lore because it obviously does, but these aren't new concepts. What we see here are all recurring concepts and themes. Reality being bent by individuals, not completely separating dream from reality and life from death, necromancy, all of it. It's a spin on stuff that's been done before. The final product is new, but this is how inspiration and even "cliches" work. You take from other works and you use them to make something new. It doesn't mean though that putting your own spin on something is being original.

If you can't see the difference in our two statements, I'm not going to bother explaining it and simply concede the point.

Try to see this from my view. Without any kind of prompt you bring this paragraph about how Skyrim is casual and the fandom universally pans this aspect of it out of absolute nowhere and then complain when I call this out as a pointless appeal to the Fandom's opinion on a topic that wasn't even relevant to the conversation. What were you trying to do with that? Was that a relevant point or not?

Really though why do you need Elder Scrolls to be this completely original thing? It's not. Its canon and lore borrows from all kinds of works and string it together to create something that hasn't existed before, but something that is still very much derivative of works that have come before. That's not a bad thing though. Writers can't help but be influenced by things that have come before. Tropes are recurring because people generally enjoy them, and a work can benefit from having ties to other works. Perhaps most of all writers borrow from what's already been written because they know that these tropes and concepts work. That they are enjoyed by the audience they're going for. People often claim that Elder Scrolls' original take on medieval fantasy is what makes it so enjoyable, but just as much Elder Scrolls is enjoyable because they took what works from other stories to help create a setting that is interesting enough for fans to even want to be drawn into the lore.

[Salus Maior]

I fail to see how.

Of course, I realize that the Thalmor are playing the Civil War. But the thing is, they're playing the Imperials as well, and they have been since they assassinated High Chancellor Ocato right after the Oblivion Crisis.

How exactly are they playing the Imperials?

They're enforcing their Theocratic laws on them, for one. Theocratic laws they know will cause dissent and rebellion in the Empire.

Not to mention they've been infiltrating and manipulating the Empire since the aftermath of the Oblivion Crisis.

[Zanera]

Mede II is definitely in it for the long game, and he is by far not a weak ruler at all.

Regardless of whether or not he was a good leader (I don't agree that he was), he's dead now. Assassinated by a member of his own government.

Interregnum part II anyone?

Naw, I think we can fit it all into one thread. I know the OP has big plans, but I think we can keep the whole story in one RP.

[Olthar]

<snip>

Well, this is easy. You made the same argument for everything. "Thing A is unoriginal in high fantasy because Thing A is common in things that aren't high fantasy." It is a complete logical disconnect that I can dismiss out of hand.

Really though why do you need Elder Scrolls to be this completely original thing?

Because I'm not content to dwell in mediocrity. I don't want to see the same thing five hundred times. I don't even understand why you're asking this. It should be obvious. It's like getting your panties in a twist when someone declares that they don't want another Call of Warfare: Modern Battlefield XVII. If you want your mediocre garbage, there's plenty of it already. Don't try covering up the occasional diamond with sludge and then start getting uppity and pissy when someone tells you to stop.

[Salus Maior]

<snip>

Well, this is easy. You made the same argument for everything. "Thing A is unoriginal in high fantasy because Thing A is common in things that aren't high fantasy." It is a complete logical disconnect that I can dismiss out of hand.

Really though why do you need Elder Scrolls to be this completely original thing?

Because I'm not content to dwell in mediocrity. I don't want to see the same thing five hundred times. I don't even understand why you're asking this. It should be obvious. It's like getting your panties in a twist when someone declares that they don't want another Call of Warfare: Modern Battlefield XVII. If you want your mediocre garbage, there's plenty of it already. Don't try covering up the occasional diamond with sludge and then start getting uppity and pissy when someone tells you to stop.

Elder Scrolls isn't very original because it was literally a mod for Dungeons and Dragons once.

[Olthar]

Well, this is easy. You made the same argument for everything. "Thing A is unoriginal in high fantasy because Thing A is common in things that aren't high fantasy." It is a complete logical disconnect that I can dismiss out of hand.


Because I'm not content to dwell in mediocrity. I don't want to see the same thing five hundred times. I don't even understand why you're asking this. It should be obvious. It's like getting your panties in a twist when someone declares that they don't want another Call of Warfare: Modern Battlefield XVII. If you want your mediocre garbage, there's plenty of it already. Don't try covering up the occasional diamond with sludge and then start getting uppity and pissy when someone tells you to stop.

Elder Scrolls isn't very original because it was literally a mod for Dungeons and Dragons once.

It's origin is unoriginal. That does not mean it failed to grow.

[Zanera]

Elder Scrolls isn't very original because it was literally a mod for Dungeons and Dragons once.

It's origin is unoriginal. That does not mean it failed to grow.

Well it's an original game series with original lore that can't get much more original than it already originally is.

[St Salvador]

What do you think the population of Skyrim is? my guess is at best 500,000.

[Olthar]

What do you think the population of Skyrim is? my guess is at best 500,000.

784, not counting bandits.

[Cymrea]

What do you think the population of Skyrim is? my guess is at best 500,000.

784, not counting bandits.

Close, according to this.

[Imperial isa]

That only happens if you don't kill them off,so that leave me to wonder how they play it out in next game if you read/hear if he was killed or not.

Generally speaking, in Elder Scrolls games all the Guild endings are canon.

That suck i killed them side the bloody vampire kid they won't let you kill.

[The Temple States]

Ultimately, if you ask me, my prediction for how it's all going to play out is like this:

1. The Empire ultimately defeats the Stormcloaks, as despite their ferocity the Stormcloaks have quite a number of disadvantages and are often portrayed(intentionally or otherwise) as a sort of antagonistic faction.
2. The Emperor who succeeds Titus Mede II will secretly secure an alliance with Hammerfell, and possibly with Morrowind.
3. The Last Dragonborn will have rebuilt the Blades and turn them from mere dragonslayers into dragontamers, and then utilize this power against the Aldmeri when the Second Great War kicks off.
4. The Aldmeri Dominion would have sought an alliance with Black Marsh if Morrowind joined the Empire.
5. There are then two outcomes: 1. The Aldmeri Dominion is defeated, the Imperial Provinces of Summurset Isles, Valenwood, Elsweyr, and Black Marsh are restored, Hammerfell and Morrowind may possibly rejoin the Empire, and the Empire returns to it's former glory. Or, alternative, the Aldmeri Dominion is defeated but takes the Empire down with it, thus ending both and leaving all the provinces of Tamriel to their own devices.

This is just my guess based on what I could gather from lore, but ultimately it's undeniable that the Empire will face the Aldmeri Dominion again and will emerge victorious. This just seems, to me, seems like the most likely method said victory will be achieved. Morrowind and Black Marsh's involvement might be a stretch, but if the Second Great War is even deadlier than the first then I wouldn't be surprised if all of Tamriel goes to war.

I was going to suggest another Sea Elf invasion of Summurset, but let's be honest, the Dwemer returning is more likely.

[Salus Maior]

I don't think the outcome of the civil war will be mentioned at all (or if so, in vague, nonspecific terms) in the next game. As well as other major in-game choices.

Like the outcome of New Vegas and Fallout 4.

Edit: Also, I imagine that the cause of the downfall of the Thalmor will be the next *insert legendary main character here*, with the aid of Bosmer rebels while the next Great War is blowing up. Yes, I am holding out for Elder Scrolls: Valenwood.