NationStates

The Armed Republic of Dutch Coolness wrote:

Dresderstan wrote:And is seen as a God among Nords, and the other races of Men before the Great War for doing what not even Alessia's heirs nor Reman's heirs could, conquer the whole of Tamriel and bring the peace and stability to the continent.

He's barely even worshiped by the Nords at the end of the Third Era - only by the time of Skyrim is he actually worshiped as such by Nords. The Redguard aren't exactly favorable towards him as well - and stick to worshiping their own pantheon, without him - but yes, the Imperial Cult sure loves him and its pretty effective at enforcing its beliefs in places outside of Cyrodiil over the centuries.

Once again. Making the Nords who would flat out refuse to even step foot on temples into "TAAAAAAAALOS" is one of the most stupid things Bethesda did in Skyrim. Jesus couldn't you at least make it "YYYYYYYYYSMIR" or something

Its interesting how we talk about Elder Scrolls Lore we take in account all of the bad things that historical figures in Tamriel had done. Its amazing how we can compare Tamriel's history with our history and current events.

Aeritai wrote:Its interesting how we talk about Elder Scrolls Lore we take in account all of the bad things that historical figures in Tamriel had done. Its amazing how we can compare Tamriel's history with our history and current events.

Tamriel’s history really is one of my favorite parts of the franchise. I love how rich and deep it is.

Not only is the timeline quite detailed, but there’s even in-universe schools of historiography, and in-universe bias and unreliability from sources just like what historians have to deal with regarding real ancient history. Few other franchises have that kind of detail.

The Armed Republic of Dutch Coolness wrote:

The Imperial Reach wrote:
Ironically he's still the best ruler Tamriel has ever had seeing as he, y'know, almost single-handedly brought peace to Tamriel for centuries to come (excluding those bits where his descendants fucked up that peace).

Peace? During his lifetime, maybe. Plenty of war within the Empire through the duration of the Third Empire and Tiber's actions are what result into the Thalmor coming to be what they are.

Genociding people into obedience until you die does not make you a good ruler, it just makes you a mass murdering maniac that people fear. The best ruler of the Third Empire was probably Katariah, who spent eighty years trying her best to fix the Septim line's mistakes before getting assassinated for being a Dunmer and not a Colovian on the Ruby Throne.

Dresderstan wrote:And is seen as a God among Nords, and the other races of Men before the Great War for doing what not even Alessia's heirs nor Reman's heirs could, conquer the whole of Tamriel and bring the peace and stability to the continent.

He's barely even worshiped by the Nords at the end of the Third Era - only by the time of Skyrim is he actually worshiped as such by Nords. The Redguard aren't exactly favorable towards him as well - and stick to worshiping their own pantheon, without him - but yes, the Imperial Cult sure loves him and its pretty effective at enforcing its beliefs in places outside of Cyrodiil over the centuries.

That's a load of bullshit. The Thalmor's ideology pretty much ensured they'd become the asshole they are now.

The Merish origin story pretty much ensures arrogant genocidal racist Elves to be inevitable. But their version of events is up for debate given Skyrim proved their claim of Lorkhan being a creation of Sithis wrong.

If you actually look at Tamrielic history, 90% of the genocidal campaigns undertaken were either undertaken by Elves or in response to Elven attempts at genocide.

Elves and their shitty attitude are the cause of most of Tamriel's problems.

The creation of the Mer and its consequences have been a disaster for Mundus.

Valrifell wrote:The creation of the Mer and its consequences have been a disaster for Mundus.

The Dragonborn should have sided with Alduin then and let him take over Nirn

San Lumen wrote:

Valrifell wrote:The creation of the Mer and its consequences have been a disaster for Mundus.

The Dragonborn should have sided with Alduin then and let him take over Nirn

Ending the Kalpa and starting anew would indeed be preferable to a world where Mer dominate any part of Nirn, yes.

The Imperial Reach wrote:That's a load of bullshit. The Thalmor's ideology pretty much ensured they'd become the asshole they are now.

The Merish origin story pretty much ensures arrogant genocidal racist Elves to be inevitable. But their version of events is up for debate given Skyrim proved their claim of Lorkhan being a creation of Sithis wrong.

If you actually look at Tamrielic history, 90% of the genocidal campaigns undertaken were either undertaken by Elves or in response to Elven attempts at genocide.

Elves and their shitty attitude are the cause of most of Tamriel's problems.

Biggest bullshit I've read since I quit reading r/teslore's threads on Daedric breastfeeding.

The Thalmor directly come to power as a result of Tiber Septim genociding Alinor's population and the resentment resulting from that, the Empire's actions that follow after it, and then the Empire's complete lack of action in the territories they held outside of Cyrodiil during the Oblivion Crisis.

If you actually look at Tamrielic history, the genocidal campaigns undertaken were pretty much all done by humans. Incidentally, none of the Elven mythical heroes have anything to do with genocide - man's heroes, on the other hand, seem to be all about it. Hell, Ysgramor as an example isn't even considered a genocidal maniac by the Elves - but he is considered a genocidal mass-murder by the Nords, who think that's great - their legends of him tell about how he invented the recording of history so that they could better rememember all the people they massacred, and describe how they go on a rampage throughout Tamriel killing every Elf they came across, no matter whether they were peaceful or not, as well as Khajiit, Argonians, and Redguard. The Snow Elves see the affairs with regards to Saarthal as a territorial conflict, the Nords as one of massacring everything with a pointed ear because everything with a pointed ear deserves death, and the fanboys see the attempted genocide of various species based on their appearance as a normal, fair, and just response to a conflict.

Genocide is very much a man-ish thing throughout TES' history - I'm sorry that this doesn't fit in with the internet's beloved "elf man bad" narrative with regards to fantasy, however. There's plenty of bad about various Elven cultures in TES but to say that Tiber had nothing to do with the Thalmor becoming a prominent thing or that "90% of genocidal campaigns were undertaken by the elves are because of them" is just stupid.

Valrifell wrote:The creation of the Mer and its consequences have been a disaster for Mundus.

Mer moneycreation, Mer problems.

Valrifell wrote:The creation of the Mer and its consequences have been a disaster for Mundus.

Mundus was mundane before Mer.

San Lumen wrote:

Valrifell wrote:The creation of the Mer and its consequences have been a disaster for Mundus.

The Dragonborn should have sided with Alduin then and let him take over Nirn

You do realize that Alduin is a tyrant who would enslave and butcher countless innocents if he took over?

Andsed wrote:

San Lumen wrote:The Dragonborn should have sided with Alduin then and let him take over Nirn

You do realize that Alduin is a tyrant who would enslave and butcher countless innocents if he took over?

I was being sarcastic

San Lumen wrote:

Andsed wrote:You do realize that Alduin is a tyrant who would enslave and butcher countless innocents if he took over?

I was being sarcastic

Iunno man, you have a history of arguing in favor of Aludin...

The Armed Republic of Dutch Coolness wrote:

The Imperial Reach wrote:That's a load of bullshit. The Thalmor's ideology pretty much ensured they'd become the asshole they are now.

The Merish origin story pretty much ensures arrogant genocidal racist Elves to be inevitable. But their version of events is up for debate given Skyrim proved their claim of Lorkhan being a creation of Sithis wrong.

If you actually look at Tamrielic history, 90% of the genocidal campaigns undertaken were either undertaken by Elves or in response to Elven attempts at genocide.

Elves and their shitty attitude are the cause of most of Tamriel's problems.

Biggest bullshit I've read since I quit reading r/teslore's threads on Daedric breastfeeding.

The Thalmor directly come to power as a result of Tiber Septim genociding Alinor's population and the resentment resulting from that, the Empire's actions that follow after it, and then the Empire's complete lack of action in the territories they held outside of Cyrodiil during the Oblivion Crisis.

If you actually look at Tamrielic history, the genocidal campaigns undertaken were pretty much all done by humans. Incidentally, none of the Elven mythical heroes have anything to do with genocide - man's heroes, on the other hand, seem to be all about it. Hell, Ysgramor as an example isn't even considered a genocidal maniac by the Elves - but he is considered a genocidal mass-murder by the Nords, who think that's great - their legends of him tell about how he invented the recording of history so that they could better rememember all the people they massacred, and describe how they go on a rampage throughout Tamriel killing every Elf they came across, no matter whether they were peaceful or not, as well as Khajiit, Argonians, and Redguard. The Snow Elves see the affairs with regards to Saarthal as a territorial conflict, the Nords as one of massacring everything with a pointed ear because everything with a pointed ear deserves death, and the fanboys see the attempted genocide of various species based on their appearance as a normal, fair, and just response to a conflict.

Genocide is very much a man-ish thing throughout TES' history - I'm sorry that this doesn't fit in with the internet's beloved "elf man bad" narrative with regards to fantasy, however. There's plenty of bad about various Elven cultures in TES but to say that Tiber had nothing to do with the Thalmor becoming a prominent thing or that "90% of genocidal campaigns were undertaken by the elves are because of them" is just stupid.

Since you're intent on shilling for Elves, let's have a recap of the lore.

• Bretons only exist because the Direnni managed to get themselves enough human slaves to rape into existence an entirely new race. The King of Rape approves, I'm sure.
• Speaking of Molag Bal, let's talk about how two different Altmer centuries apart (Mannimarco and Lord Narifin, respectively) have tried to sacrifice Tamriel and the Imperial City (respectively) to him.
• Speaking of Goldenrods, let's talk about the Bosmer-turned-Altmer that tried to sacrifice all of Tamriel to Mehrunez Dagon. I'm detecting a pattern here.
• Let's not forget that time Voryn Dagoth decided to become a god and inflict biological warfare on his own people to serve them.
• Or that time Dumac Dwarfking zero-summed his entire race.
• Or that time Vivec decided to flex on everybody by holding a meteor over the city named in his honor before poofing away and letting it fall, pretty much rendering the entire island of Vvardenfell uninhabitable.
• Speaking of Vivec being an asshole, did you hear about how he confessed to the Tribunal murdering Nerevar during his own trial before the aforementioned poofing away and therefor getting his own people cursed in the process? Yeah, that happened. Looks like the whole Tribunal are scumbags who doomed their country.
• Oh, who can forget the cannibalistic Bosmer trying to genocide the Khajiit?
• Or the Dunmer enslaving every race for most of their history until about 300 years ago?
• I'm sure you don't consider it genocide, but the Snow Elves sacking Saarthal and killing everybody in it except Ysgramor and his sons is definitely genocide. Sorry.
• Ooo, speaking of the Falmer who can forget how they came to be the monsters they are today? Those Dwemer seem to be some serious bastards.
• Ah, and who can forget the Ayleids who enslaved every Nede in their territory, treated them like animals, and cavorted with Daedra (which the Dunmer and Maormer also do, btw) - most of whom are evil bastards.
• Oh, speaking of Dunmer, guess how the Dark Brotherhood came to being? Guess who got that all started? Go ahead. Guess.
• You want to hear about the Maormer and how the Aldmer cheated them and tricked them into living in a shitty swamp?
• Or maybe about how the Maormer dabble in necromancy?
• Oh, and of course there's the Elven Nazis that are the Thalmor.
• Thalmor don't seem to treat their Bosmer subjects with much respect either, from what we've seen.

See, right now the scoreboard is not the Mer's favor. It seems when they aren't waging genocidal campaigns, they're either enslaving and torturing whole races or communing with Daedra. Hell, even Mer don't seem to like other Mer. They're just as evil to their own kind as they are to Men and Beastfolk. I shudder to think would might have happened if instead of Tiber conquering Tamriel, it would've been an Altmer. Now that's a scary thought, y'know, considering they're even more racist than the Nords - which is saying something.

But the single biggest problem with the Mer has got to be the fact they're lying bastards. Thanks to Tsun's off-hand comment about the Dark Brotherhood, we now know that Lorkhan (Shor) isn't a servant of Sithis and therefor did not "trick" the Aedra into becoming mortal. Which means they got buyer's remorse and decided to wage a genocidal war against Lorkhan and Mankind because "boohoo, we regretted decisions we made of our volition without thinking harder about it so we're gonna wage war and kill a bunch of folks to vent our frustration at being brain-dead idiots". That is how we got the Thalmor. Tiber Septim was just the tip of the shit cake the Mer made themselves. The Thalmor's ultimate objective being the deactivation of the Towers has nothing to do with Talos. They just want him gone to make Aetherius a Talos-free place and stick it to Mankind and Lorkhan.

So yeah, Elf Man Bad. They're still knife-eared bastards even in Elder Scrolls.

The Imperial Reach wrote:Since you're intent on shilling for Elves, let's have a recap of the lore.

Ok genocide shill

I shudder to think would might have happened if instead of Tiber conquering Tamriel, it would've been an Altmer. Now that's a scary thought, y'know, considering they're even more racist than the Nords - which is saying something.

Altmer don't care about world conquest. It never would've happened because it's flat out against their interests in the world - ESO's Ayrenn is very much the outlier and is consistently depicted as as much. There's the difference between them as well - Altmer are racist and as a result want to live on their island separated from the rest of the world. Nords are racist and as a result brag about genocide that might not have even taken place because that's a thing to aspire to.

I'm very proud of you being able to list a lot of evil individuals. None of these justify the various fun genocidal times of Man, though. Interestingly enough, the two biggest Altmeri heroes, Phynaster and Syrabane, are known for helping not only their people but others as well - including peaceful cooperation with humans for a greater good.

So we're gonna wage war and kill a bunch of folks to vent our frustration at being brain-dead idiots".

Why are you bringing up the time the Nords got so mad at the Snow Elves they decided to mass murder Chimer who didn't even attack them, Khajiit, Bosmer, Argonians, and Redguard? It seems somewhat unrelated. Or were you talking about the time the Yokudans decided to just kind of randomly genocide a people out of existence without provocation? Wait, you were talking about the time the Alessian Order decided to try and murder all Elves, including the ones that actively fought to help save them during Alessia's rebellion? Or that time they decided to break time for a millennia because the thought of a god not being entirely human in nature hurt too much? These are things they all actively consider to be stuff worth bragging about, by the way - rather than the acts of villains, such as is primarily the case in the examples you've listed.

I'd go on, but you're obviously not interested in anything other than le epic genocide is good because le epic meta lore from le epic kirkbride says le elves want this so le man must kill all le yellow point ear exdee - your misstating of various things only proves as much.

The Thalmor's ultimate objective being the deactivation of the Towers has nothing to do with Talos. They just want him gone to make Aetherius a Talos-free place and stick it to Mankind and Lorkhan.

According to Kirkbride's reddit posts.

So yeah, Elf Man Bad. They're still knife-eared bastards even in Elder Scrolls.

Man bad too, though. Although I guess it's less awkward to explain that your fictional genocidal fantasies aren't related to anything that actual real people may look like. After all, the Snow Elves fought against the war - it only makes sense that the Chimer to the east that had nothing to do with any of that deserve to be captured, have their tongues cut out, and be put to slave labour into making a big stone city for the mighty Atmorans only to be crushed by solid stone totem poles dumped on their heads in a pit in praise of tyrannical Draconic overlords - shouldn't have been born with pointy ears!

None of TES' races are good eggs and they've all done heinous shit - ignoring the vast amount that one subgroup of races has done because 'other subgroup of races bad' is just willfully ignoring a significant amount of lore for the sake of what... feeling more justified about an unreasonable dislike for various fictional races? It's a waste of the setting's writing and the nuance put into it - on a smaller scale, it'd be like completely ignoring Ulfric's treatment of the Reach and the Reachmen to assure people that he's totally not a hypocrite.

The TES fandom's continued obsession with justifying genocide by their favs and how it is good and great, actually, has to be one of my biggest and longest lasting gripes with it overall. Endlessly frustrating.

The Armed Republic of Dutch Coolness wrote:The TES fandom's continued obsession with justifying genocide by their favs and how it is good and great, actually, has to be one of my biggest and longest lasting gripes with it overall. Endlessly frustrating.

What else can you expect though? When the game has 10 different races, each one of them thinking they are the best and the rest suck, of course it's gonna rub on to the fans of those races. "The race I love hates others, therefore I have to hate them too!" And then you get cherrypicked justifications for said hatred.

Nazi elves must die: Yes
But not all High Elves: Yes.
Niranye is a banger: Yes.
Dark Elves are cool: Yes
Wood Elves are Useless: Yes.


My view points regarding the matter of High Elf genocide summed up.

The Huskar Social Union wrote:Nazi elves must die: Yes
But not all High Elves: Yes.
Niranye is a banger: Yes.
Dark Elves are cool: Yes
Wood Elves are Useless: Yes.


My view points regarding the matter of High Elf genocide summed up.

It's odd that concerning the Mer folk that nobody here has advocated genociding the Orcs. I'm not saying that they should be advocating it, it's just an odd oversight, considering that Orsinium in ES has been razed to the ground several times and that Orcs in Tamriel are widely regarded as pests.

The New California Republic wrote:

The Huskar Social Union wrote:Nazi elves must die: Yes
But not all High Elves: Yes.
Niranye is a banger: Yes.
Dark Elves are cool: Yes
Wood Elves are Useless: Yes.


My view points regarding the matter of High Elf genocide summed up.

It's odd that concerning the Mer folk that nobody here has advocated genociding the Orcs. I'm not saying that they should be advocating it, it's just an odd oversight, considering that Orsinium in ES has been razed to the ground several times and that Orcs in Tamriel are widely regarded as pests.

Iirc it's usually the men who attack the Orcs that way. Not to say that Elves wouldn't do such a thing if given the opportunity, but. You know.

I’m about to start Oblivion for the first time. It’s on Xbox too, so no mods or glitch fixing console commands.

Any tips?

North German Realm wrote:

The New California Republic wrote:It's odd that concerning the Mer folk that nobody here has advocated genociding the Orcs. I'm not saying that they should be advocating it, it's just an odd oversight, considering that Orsinium in ES has been razed to the ground several times and that Orcs in Tamriel are widely regarded as pests.

Iirc it's usually the men who attack the Orcs that way. Not to say that Elves wouldn't do such a thing if given the opportunity, but. You know.

I wasn't meaning other Mer genociding the Orcs, I was just meaning generally. I meant that folk advocate for some of the other Mer races to be genocided but not the Orcs.

The New California Republic wrote:

North German Realm wrote:Iirc it's usually the men who attack the Orcs that way. Not to say that Elves wouldn't do such a thing if given the opportunity, but. You know.

I wasn't meaning other Mer genociding the Orcs, I was just meaning generally. I meant that folk advocate for some of the other Mer races to be genocided but not the Orcs.

Honestly that's because compared to the various races of Mer, Orcs are for the large part harmless. They're just there. They don't particularly have a long-standing feud with anyone else either which helps (which is ironic given they have the best reason for a feud with virtually any of their neighbors).

Orcs are, ironically enough, some of the more respected outlanders in Morrowind, from the choice dialogue the local Dunmer give you on the other races.

The first Galactic Republic wrote:I’m about to start Oblivion for the first time. It’s on Xbox too, so no mods or glitch fixing console commands.

Any tips?

Used the wiki as most of main bugs should be listed on the Quests pages

North German Realm wrote:

The New California Republic wrote:I wasn't meaning other Mer genociding the Orcs, I was just meaning generally. I meant that folk advocate for some of the other Mer races to be genocided but not the Orcs.

Honestly that's because compared to the various races of Mer, Orcs are for the large part harmless. They're just there. They don't particularly have a long-standing feud with anyone else either which helps (which is ironic given they have the best reason for a feud with virtually any of their neighbors).

I would think that the Orcs grate quite a few of the other powers-that-be, because of the way they set up strongholds etc in what could be considered the territory of others. So I still think it's odd that they don't get more flak. The Empire is different, as they are likely inclined to leave them alone as Orcs regularly serve in the Imperial Army.