The Skyrim/Elder Scrolls thread

[Valrifell]

Personally, I don't see why Ulfric wasn't paraded around the Imperial City and executed after much fanfare, I mean they were already in secure Imperial territory and Cyrodiil was just a road away to the south. If they were going to move Ulfric after capturing him, why Helgen? Why not keep the cart rolling and take him to Cyrodiil where you know there are literally no Stormcloak rebels?

Because Bethesda plot.

But, like, why is Ulfric necessary for the story of the prologue? I can't think of very much that would change if you take him out.

It seems like a detail that feels important but has no reason to actually be there.

[Dresderstan]

Because Bethesda plot.

But, like, why is Ulfric necessary for the story of the prologue? I can't think of very much that would change if you take him out.

It seems like a detail that feels important but has no reason to actually be there.

Probably to tie in the Civil War?

[The Imperial Reach]

The entire Helgen intro was forced garbage.

Your character's been arrested for no apparent reason, sentenced to death for no apparent reason, you have to sit through a very long and boring intro that takes about 15 minutes, some dumbass marches his way to the chopping block and nobody cares, the one person there whose death actually matters (as far as anyone in-universe knows) is for some reason not executed first and foremost even though his presence is the whole damn reason this execution thing is happening in the first place, you're then forced to pick a side in a conflict you know nothing about while marching through a dungeon that is both long yet seemingly devoid of ample loot, and for the first 20-30 minutes or so you can't even do anything but walk, run, and crouch.

It's long, it's boring, it's tedious, and it makes no sense.

[Aeritai]

The entire Helgen intro was forced garbage.

Your character's been arrested for no apparent reason, sentenced to death for no apparent reason, you have to sit through a very long and boring intro that takes about 15 minutes, some dumbass marches his way to the chopping block and nobody cares, the one person there whose death actually matters (as far as anyone in-universe knows) is for some reason not executed first and foremost even though his presence is the whole damn reason this execution thing is happening in the first place, you're then forced to pick a side in a conflict you know nothing about while marching through a dungeon that is both long yet seemingly devoid of ample loot, and for the first 20-30 minutes or so you can't even do anything but walk, run, and crouch.

It's long, it's boring, it's tedious, and it makes no sense.

It's a good thing the Alternate Start Mod is a thing!

EDIT: Also I thought it was hinted that the LDB tried to cross the border illegally which is why the Imperial's arrest them?

[Ganja Autonomous Zone]

Serious question. Why is that stupid? For a thousand years or so, dragon attacks just didn't happen. And good luck getting a more traditional armed force into Helgen to rescue Ulfric.

Personally, I don't see why Ulfric wasn't paraded around the Imperial City and executed after much fanfare, I mean they were already in secure Imperial territory and Cyrodiil was just a road away to the south. If they were going to move Ulfric after capturing him, why Helgen? Why not keep the cart rolling and take him to Cyrodiil where you know there are literally no Stormcloak rebels?

Because doing so would have created more opportunities for Ulfric to escape and keep the Skyrim civil war going.

[The first Galactic Republic]

Miraak does have a lot of “rule of cool” going for him, and I like his premise. I just wish they did more with him.

He’s kind of a flat character. He just wants to take over the world because he can. It’d be more interesting if he had a real ideology behind his rebellion. If he were trying to genuinely change the world and build something new. They could have made him more like Dagoth Ur. Given him real goals and more extensive conversations with the Dragonborn. They could have at least given him some crazy Numidium or Akulakhan tier shit up his sleeve to shake things up.

I feel the way Hermaeus Mora was written in Dragonborn also undermined Miraak’s potential. The threat of his character was subverted by his inability to leave Apocrypha. He wasn’t all that dangerous stuck up there, and even if he did manage to eventually escape back to Mundus by having people hammer away at the All Maker stones enough or whatever, there’s no reason why he couldn’t have been stopped then.

Imo he should have been freed from Oblivion. Like, imagine if he’d already enslaved half of Solstheim and Raven Rock was really struggling to hold out against him, their defense weakened by Miraak’s occasional ability to mentally dominate characters inside the city and add them to the people he’d enthralled. Maybe the characters initially helping you to oppose him at the start of the main DLC questline would gradually give way to his mental domination, and in gameplay even sidequest givers and vendors would be possessed over time. This would give the player a real sense of urgency in stopping him.

Or imagine if an entire section of Apocrypha had fallen under his control and Hermaeus Mora couldn’t influence it anymore. What if Miraak had been a mortal who well and truly managed to dick over a Daedric Lord, even when originally starting in a lesser position after being defeated by Vahlok? Now that would have been a badass Miraak.

Instead he’s kinda helpless in the grand scheme of things. He can only hope his plan to leave Oblivion works before the Dragonborn makes their way to him, and when that inevitably happens, Hermaeus Mora just waits for him to be sufficiently weakened then stabs him through the back. Big whoop.

The Daedric Princes in Skyrim were too powerful to be interesting characters anymore. It’s not enjoyable for the player to force the Dragonborn to suck Nocturnal toes and Hermaeus Mora tentacles in Oblivion for the rest of forever because the main quest requires you to become their plaything. Like, the Greek gods from real world mythology were also these all powerful yet petty entities mortals couldn’t ever really challenge, but at least you had, like, god on god wars with mortal proxies to set the stage for some epic storytelling. In Elder Scrolls, Daedric Princes frequently just get what they want in exchange for helping you solve some lesser problem. What’s even the point? Where’s the engaging story? Dragonborn’s plot is basically just about how cool and powerful Bethesda’s Cthulhu ripoff is. Why shill for a made up character? Fictional characters exist to be interesting and propel stories along, and they sacrificed Miraak’s potential, the main antagonist’s potential, in favor of a Daedric Prince side character.

If Morrowind were written this way, Dagoth Ur wouldn’t have most of his memetic dialogue in his end fight, Azura would hold the Nerevarine’s hand through the whole story, and at the end there’d be some revelation about how Azura outwitted you into being the new Dagoth Ur and how your heroes’ journey was a fat lie.

And jeez, when Bethesda does have some interesting development with a Daedric Prince, like the whole Sheogorath/Jyggalag conflict in Shivering Isles, they never revisit it.

Miraak could have been a new tier of Elder Scrolls baddie, but he’s barely more competent than Harkon in the end.

Still cool though.

I mostly agree.

But I like the whole "And so the First Dragonborn meets the Last Dragonborn at the Summit of Apocrypha" thing. It was neat. Miraak being able to leave Apocrypha I'm against because I think it's better he be stopped there rather than in Solstheim. But I think his influence over Solstheim should've been far greater than what it was so he seemed more threatening.

An interesting thing was that he mentions he needs TLD's soul in order to escape Apocrypha, but then that completely contradicts him sending assassins after you and then letting your leave Apocrypha the first time. They should've gone further with that explanation, IMO. Also a lot of lines of his were cut before release, some of which suggest he was a bit remorseful at having to kill TLD but he had to because it was the only way he could escape.

Personally I think his motivation was good enough, it just needed more fluff to it. We know he wants to leave Apocrypha after all this time but they never really say why other than that he's tired of serving Mora. His motive needed more fat to it other than just "I want out!". If there was some sort of "prophecy" to explain his return here and now rather than the last few thousand years that would've been a bit better. Harkon sat waiting around for his prophecy to come to fruition before he started making his moves. Miraak should've been the same, tbh.

A theory I’ve heard is that Hermaeus Mora manipulated those cultists into attacking the Dragonborn, thus leading them to Solstheim. Miraak hardly benefited from provoking a fight. His plan to eventually leave was going well enough.

Then again maybe he did send them if he needed the Dragonborn’s soul.

I don’t see why he’d need their soul specifically. Maybe he just wanted to off the last possible threat to him.

[Valrifell]

The entire Helgen intro was forced garbage.

Your character's been arrested for no apparent reason, sentenced to death for no apparent reason, you have to sit through a very long and boring intro that takes about 15 minutes, some dumbass marches his way to the chopping block and nobody cares, the one person there whose death actually matters (as far as anyone in-universe knows) is for some reason not executed first and foremost even though his presence is the whole damn reason this execution thing is happening in the first place, you're then forced to pick a side in a conflict you know nothing about while marching through a dungeon that is both long yet seemingly devoid of ample loot, and for the first 20-30 minutes or so you can't even do anything but walk, run, and crouch.

It's long, it's boring, it's tedious, and it makes no sense.

It's a good thing the Alternate Start Mod is a thing!

EDIT: Also I thought it was hinted that the LDB tried to cross the border illegally which is why the Imperial's arrest them?

Yeah, TLD was caught trying to cross into Skyrim for ~unknown reasons~

Does the Empire not have free travel between provinces or what?

[The Imperial Reach]

I mostly agree.

But I like the whole "And so the First Dragonborn meets the Last Dragonborn at the Summit of Apocrypha" thing. It was neat. Miraak being able to leave Apocrypha I'm against because I think it's better he be stopped there rather than in Solstheim. But I think his influence over Solstheim should've been far greater than what it was so he seemed more threatening.

An interesting thing was that he mentions he needs TLD's soul in order to escape Apocrypha, but then that completely contradicts him sending assassins after you and then letting your leave Apocrypha the first time. They should've gone further with that explanation, IMO. Also a lot of lines of his were cut before release, some of which suggest he was a bit remorseful at having to kill TLD but he had to because it was the only way he could escape.

Personally I think his motivation was good enough, it just needed more fluff to it. We know he wants to leave Apocrypha after all this time but they never really say why other than that he's tired of serving Mora. His motive needed more fat to it other than just "I want out!". If there was some sort of "prophecy" to explain his return here and now rather than the last few thousand years that would've been a bit better. Harkon sat waiting around for his prophecy to come to fruition before he started making his moves. Miraak should've been the same, tbh.

A theory I’ve heard is that Hermaeus Mora manipulated those cultists into attacking the Dragonborn, thus leading them to Solstheim. Miraak hardly benefited from provoking a fight. His plan to eventually leave was going well enough.

Then again maybe he did send them if he needed the Dragonborn’s soul.

I don’t see why he’d need their soul specifically. Maybe he just wanted to off the last possible threat to him.

Well, as Dragonborn, you've already absorbed several souls by the time you meet him. It's probably not your soul in particular he wants but yours + all the ones you're carrying. Remember that when Miraak dies you get like 10 souls from him, at least one of which is probably his own.

[The Imperial Reach]

It's a good thing the Alternate Start Mod is a thing!

EDIT: Also I thought it was hinted that the LDB tried to cross the border illegally which is why the Imperial's arrest them?

Yeah, TLD was caught trying to cross into Skyrim for ~unknown reasons~

Does the Empire not have free travel between provinces or what?

I think Bethesda forgot that the reason for the character's imprisonment isn't supposed to be revealed so players can decide for themselves what happened.

But who are we feeble mortals to question Godd Coward?

[Aeritai]

It's a good thing the Alternate Start Mod is a thing!

EDIT: Also I thought it was hinted that the LDB tried to cross the border illegally which is why the Imperial's arrest them?

Yeah, TLD was caught trying to cross into Skyrim for ~unknown reasons~

Does the Empire not have free travel between provinces or what?

My guess is the Empire has some type of tax on crossing into other provinces.

[Dresderstan]

It's a good thing the Alternate Start Mod is a thing!

EDIT: Also I thought it was hinted that the LDB tried to cross the border illegally which is why the Imperial's arrest them?

Yeah, TLD was caught trying to cross into Skyrim for ~unknown reasons~

Does the Empire not have free travel between provinces or what?

Well Skyrim is in the midst of civil war, maybe advise those not to enter or something?

[Valrifell]

Yeah, TLD was caught trying to cross into Skyrim for ~unknown reasons~

Does the Empire not have free travel between provinces or what?

I think Bethesda forgot that the reason for the character's imprisonment isn't supposed to be revealed so players can decide for themselves what happened.

But who are we feeble mortals to question Godd Coward?

My character in Oblivion was arrested for tax fraud, for instance.

But making TLD non-native is just a way to give new players an in to the lore and politics of Skyrim. It is quite annoying when people explain the Civil War to me, the native-Nord Dragonborn and other local things I would logically know like a seven year old.

[The first Galactic Republic]

It's a good thing the Alternate Start Mod is a thing!

EDIT: Also I thought it was hinted that the LDB tried to cross the border illegally which is why the Imperial's arrest them?

Yeah, TLD was caught trying to cross into Skyrim for ~unknown reasons~

Does the Empire not have free travel between provinces or what?

I think it was just wrong place wrong time.

It wouldn’t have been a big deal if you weren’t caught at the same time as Ulfric. You got lopped in with him.

[The Islands of Versilia]

Serious question. Why is that stupid? For a thousand years or so, dragon attacks just didn't happen. And good luck getting a more traditional armed force into Helgen to rescue Ulfric.

Personally, I don't see why Ulfric wasn't paraded around the Imperial City and executed after much fanfare, I mean they were already in secure Imperial territory and Cyrodiil was just a road away to the south. If they were going to move Ulfric after capturing him, why Helgen? Why not keep the cart rolling and take him to Cyrodiil where you know there are literally no Stormcloak rebels?

The Thalmor would’ve orchestrated his escape and I think the good General wanted Ulfric executed swiftly as he knew that Ulfric would somehow escape on the way to the Imperial City.

[Andsed]

Personally, I don't see why Ulfric wasn't paraded around the Imperial City and executed after much fanfare, I mean they were already in secure Imperial territory and Cyrodiil was just a road away to the south. If they were going to move Ulfric after capturing him, why Helgen? Why not keep the cart rolling and take him to Cyrodiil where you know there are literally no Stormcloak rebels?

The Thalmor would’ve orchestrated his escape and I think the good General wanted Ulfric executed swiftly as he knew that Ulfric would somehow escape on the way to the Imperial City.

Then why was Ulfric not executed first once he got to Helgen?

[San Lumen]

I wish there was a quest line to rebuild Helgen. There is a mod i know of it but its not available for PS4 it seems

[The Islands of Versilia]

The Thalmor would’ve orchestrated his escape and I think the good General wanted Ulfric executed swiftly as he knew that Ulfric would somehow escape on the way to the Imperial City.

Then why was Ulfric not executed first once he got to Helgen?

Bethesda needed the Civil War narrative and events so - unsurprisingly - Tullius’s superior, Director Plotius, ordered fodder and Dragonborns to be executed first rather than the criminal rebel leader and king-murderer.

[Heloin]

Then why was Ulfric not executed first once he got to Helgen?

Bethesda needed the Civil War narrative and events so - unsurprisingly - Tullius’s superior, Director Plotius, ordered fodder and Dragonborns to be executed first rather than the criminal rebel leader and king-murderer.

They could have had a more interesting civil war with the original figurehead of the rebellion dead and the still powerful remnants divided on how to continue while an overstretched Empire can't spare the resources to crush the remaining rebels yet. It'd give a lore friendly reason why the fighting doesn't begin in earnest until after the Dragon Born (or random fuck if you didn't bother caring about that dragon business) gets involved.

[Valrifell]

The Thalmor would’ve orchestrated his escape and I think the good General wanted Ulfric executed swiftly as he knew that Ulfric would somehow escape on the way to the Imperial City.

Then why was Ulfric not executed first once he got to Helgen?

Better yet, why not just kill him immediately following the ambush?

[San Lumen]

Bethesda needed the Civil War narrative and events so - unsurprisingly - Tullius’s superior, Director Plotius, ordered fodder and Dragonborns to be executed first rather than the criminal rebel leader and king-murderer.

They could have had a more interesting civil war with the original figurehead of the rebellion dead and the still powerful remnants divided on how to continue while an overstretched Empire can't spare the resources to crush the remaining rebels yet. It'd give a lore friendly reason why the fighting doesn't begin in earnest until after the Dragon Born (or random fuck if you didn't bother caring about that dragon business) gets involved.

Their writing has become incredibly lazy

[Impaled Nazarene]

The entire Helgen intro was forced garbage.

Your character's been arrested for no apparent reason, sentenced to death for no apparent reason, you have to sit through a very long and boring intro that takes about 15 minutes, some dumbass marches his way to the chopping block and nobody cares, the one person there whose death actually matters (as far as anyone in-universe knows) is for some reason not executed first and foremost even though his presence is the whole damn reason this execution thing is happening in the first place, you're then forced to pick a side in a conflict you know nothing about while marching through a dungeon that is both long yet seemingly devoid of ample loot, and for the first 20-30 minutes or so you can't even do anything but walk, run, and crouch.

It's long, it's boring, it's tedious, and it makes no sense.

It's a good thing the Alternate Start Mod is a thing!

Which sadly is not on the workshop anymore.

Bethesda needed the Civil War narrative and events so - unsurprisingly - Tullius’s superior, Director Plotius, ordered fodder and Dragonborns to be executed first rather than the criminal rebel leader and king-murderer.

They could have had an interesting civil war

I removed all the extra words from your post.

[Aeritai]

It's a good thing the Alternate Start Mod is a thing!

Which sadly is not on the workshop anymore.

They could have had an interesting civil war

I removed all the extra words from your post.

Not on the Workshop? It's still on there at least for me anyway.

[Heloin]

They could have had an interesting civil war

I removed all the extra words from your post.

That is fair.

[The Blaatschapen]

It's a good thing the Alternate Start Mod is a thing!

Which sadly is not on the workshop anymore.

Use the Nexus instead, if that is still a thing

[The New California Republic]

It's fun to use console commands on the cart occupants at the starting sequence.