The Skyrim/Elder Scrolls thread

[The Huskar Social Union]

Here’s a interesting what if? Say Alduin arrives a moment later and the Dragonborn is executed. What happens after that?

Alduin wins and the world ends.

[The Blaatschapen]

Here’s a interesting what if? Say Alduin arrives a moment later and the Dragonborn is executed. What happens after that?

We'd have a very short game.

[The Imperial Reach]

You know what I just realized?

When you speak to Mehrunes Dagon in his Daedric Quest and he asks you to kill Silus, he says that "he and his family have served their purpose". Which of course refers to the Mythic Dawn and their plot to bring Dagon into Mundus. But it's the choice of words that interest me: "served their purpose". Dagon's plan to enter Tamriel failed when Martin smashed the Amulet of Kings and invoked the Avatar of Akatosh who then battled Dagon and cast him back into Oblivion. Yet Dagon, it seems, isn't too upset about his defeat. Almost like he doesn't care that his whole plan was foiled.

Or was it? Mehrunes Dagon is, after all, the "Lord of Change". His sphere includes both Change and Revolution. What happened after the Oblivion Crisis ended? Change and Revolution. Maybe he knew he would be defeated? Maybe he wasn't trying to win at all? What if his whole plan wasn't to takeover Tamriel, but to disrupt the centuries of stability and peace brought with the Septim Dynasty by bringing it to a permanent end? To shake the Empire with enough force to leave it weak and unhinged or even destroy it? Change and Revolution.

The Septims are all dead. The Thalmor have restored the Aldmeri Dominion. The Empire has lost all of Southern Tamriel as well as Hammerfell and Morrowind. Xenophobic ultranationalists have risen to power in Summurset, Morrowind, Black Marsh, and Eastern Skyrim.

So much Change, and so much Revolution. Maybe Dagon did win in the end? Maybe this is what he wanted after all?

[Impaled Nazarene]

Here’s a interesting what if? Say Alduin arrives a moment later and the Dragonborn is executed. What happens after that?

Then another random becomes dragonborn. The DB was saved to stop Alduin. Do not think "what if alduin was slightly late", what if Lokir didn't run off and what if that one Stormcloak didn't volunteer for the block. The divines worked subtly (by fantasy standards that is) but if despite their influence the dragonborn dies than someone else is now randomly dragonborn. That possibly means Ulfric, and uh the world would be better off destroyed by Alduin than with Ulfric as THE dragonborn.

[The Imperial Reach]

Here’s a interesting what if? Say Alduin arrives a moment later and the Dragonborn is executed. What happens after that?

Then another random becomes dragonborn. The DB was saved to stop Alduin. Do not think "what if alduin was slightly late", what if Lokir didn't run off and what if that one Stormcloak didn't volunteer for the block. The divines worked subtly (by fantasy standards that is) but if despite their influence the dragonborn dies than someone else is now randomly dragonborn. That possibly means Ulfric, and uh the world would be better off destroyed by Alduin than with Ulfric as THE dragonborn.

No, the Dragonborn was born with the soul of a dragon. That means it happened at birth, not at some random moment in time. There's no doubt the Divines probably did intervene to stop TLD from dying so soon, but IMO it was stupid to put the player on the block BEFORE THE GUY THE EMPIRE WANTED TO EXECUTE IN THE FIRST FUCKING PLACE.

So thank Godd Coward for that nonsense.

[Dresderstan]

You know what I just realized?

When you speak to Mehrunes Dagon in his Daedric Quest and he asks you to kill Silus, he says that "he and his family have served their purpose". Which of course refers to the Mythic Dawn and their plot to bring Dagon into Mundus. But it's the choice of words that interest me: "served their purpose". Dagon's plan to enter Tamriel failed when Martin smashed the Amulet of Kings and invoked the Avatar of Akatosh who then battled Dagon and cast him back into Oblivion. Yet Dagon, it seems, isn't too upset about his defeat. Almost like he doesn't care that his whole plan was foiled.

Or was it? Mehrunes Dagon is, after all, the "Lord of Change". His sphere includes both Change and Revolution. What happened after the Oblivion Crisis ended? Change and Revolution. Maybe he knew he would be defeated? Maybe he wasn't trying to win at all? What if his whole plan wasn't to takeover Tamriel, but to disrupt the centuries of stability and peace brought with the Septim Dynasty by bringing it to a permanent end? To shake the Empire with enough force to leave it weak and unhinged or even destroy it? Change and Revolution.

The Septims are all dead. The Thalmor have restored the Aldmeri Dominion. The Empire has lost all of Southern Tamriel as well as Hammerfell and Morrowind. Xenophobic ultranationalists have risen to power in Summurset, Morrowind, Black Marsh, and Eastern Skyrim.

So much Change, and so much Revolution. Maybe Dagon did win in the end? Maybe this is what he wanted after all?

The 3rd era of the Septim Dynasty was hardly all that peaceful or stable, it was united under one banner in Tamriel, but there were definitely a number of instability moments. War of the Red Diamond, and the Camoran Userper spring to mind, but yes I know the dynasty and the empire was still intact after those events, but by the time of Oblivion I'd argue it was a power keg ready to ignite, it took Dagon and the Mythic Dawn to kill off Uriel VII and the battle with Martin to usher in the 4th era. And with no Emperor and the bloodline effectively dead, yeah he got the change and revolution he got, I think he knew all the failures of the past 433 years was doing nothing, but knew that without a good and strong emperor they would rebel, hence why he had the plan to assassinate and destroy the Septim's and their bloodline.

[The Huskar Social Union]

You know what I just realized?

When you speak to Mehrunes Dagon in his Daedric Quest and he asks you to kill Silus, he says that "he and his family have served their purpose". Which of course refers to the Mythic Dawn and their plot to bring Dagon into Mundus. But it's the choice of words that interest me: "served their purpose". Dagon's plan to enter Tamriel failed when Martin smashed the Amulet of Kings and invoked the Avatar of Akatosh who then battled Dagon and cast him back into Oblivion. Yet Dagon, it seems, isn't too upset about his defeat. Almost like he doesn't care that his whole plan was foiled.

Or was it? Mehrunes Dagon is, after all, the "Lord of Change". His sphere includes both Change and Revolution. What happened after the Oblivion Crisis ended? Change and Revolution. Maybe he knew he would be defeated? Maybe he wasn't trying to win at all? What if his whole plan wasn't to takeover Tamriel, but to disrupt the centuries of stability and peace brought with the Septim Dynasty by bringing it to a permanent end? To shake the Empire with enough force to leave it weak and unhinged or even destroy it? Change and Revolution.

The Septims are all dead. The Thalmor have restored the Aldmeri Dominion. The Empire has lost all of Southern Tamriel as well as Hammerfell and Morrowind. Xenophobic ultranationalists have risen to power in Summurset, Morrowind, Black Marsh, and Eastern Skyrim.

So much Change, and so much Revolution. Maybe Dagon did win in the end? Maybe this is what he wanted after all?

ooooh

[San Lumen]

Then another random becomes dragonborn. The DB was saved to stop Alduin. Do not think "what if alduin was slightly late", what if Lokir didn't run off and what if that one Stormcloak didn't volunteer for the block. The divines worked subtly (by fantasy standards that is) but if despite their influence the dragonborn dies than someone else is now randomly dragonborn. That possibly means Ulfric, and uh the world would be better off destroyed by Alduin than with Ulfric as THE dragonborn.

No, the Dragonborn was born with the soul of a dragon. That means it happened at birth, not at some random moment in time. There's no doubt the Divines probably did intervene to stop TLD from dying so soon, but IMO it was stupid to put the player on the block BEFORE THE GUY THE EMPIRE WANTED TO EXECUTE IN THE FIRST FUCKING PLACE.

So thank Godd Coward for that nonsense.

But let’s say they didn’t intervene and the Dragonborn is executed? What happens?

[Dresderstan]

No, the Dragonborn was born with the soul of a dragon. That means it happened at birth, not at some random moment in time. There's no doubt the Divines probably did intervene to stop TLD from dying so soon, but IMO it was stupid to put the player on the block BEFORE THE GUY THE EMPIRE WANTED TO EXECUTE IN THE FIRST FUCKING PLACE.

So thank Godd Coward for that nonsense.

But let’s say they didn’t intervene and the Dragonborn is executed? What happens?

There would be no game? Alduin wins?

[The first Galactic Republic]

I think Wood Elf blood was the hardest for me to collect when i first did that quest. It felt like they just fucked off from the face of Skyrim when i needed them lol

Like I said the cave Liar’s retreat has every blood type you need but Altmer

And an unmarked shrine of Talos by the guardian stones has a dead Thalmor you can use for the Altmer.

Not too bad a quest on repeat playthroughs.

[The first Galactic Republic]

No, the Dragonborn was born with the soul of a dragon. That means it happened at birth, not at some random moment in time. There's no doubt the Divines probably did intervene to stop TLD from dying so soon, but IMO it was stupid to put the player on the block BEFORE THE GUY THE EMPIRE WANTED TO EXECUTE IN THE FIRST FUCKING PLACE.

So thank Godd Coward for that nonsense.

But let’s say they didn’t intervene and the Dragonborn is executed? What happens?

Obviously the Dragonborn’s soul would hop into Akatosh’s backup champion.

Hadvar, last and greatest hero of Skyrim.

[Dresderstan]

But let’s say they didn’t intervene and the Dragonborn is executed? What happens?

Obviously the Dragonborn’s soul would hop into Akatosh’s backup champion.

Hadvar, last and greatest son of Skyrim.

Or Ralof... Or Tullius.... or hell even Elenwen possibly.

[The first Galactic Republic]

Obviously the Dragonborn’s soul would hop into Akatosh’s backup champion.

Hadvar, last and greatest son of Skyrim.

Or Ralof... Or Tullius.... or hell even Elenwen possibly.

... Dragonborn Elenwen is just wrong.

[San Lumen]

Obviously the Dragonborn’s soul would hop into Akatosh’s backup champion.

Hadvar, last and greatest son of Skyrim.

Or Ralof... Or Tullius.... or hell even Elenwen possibly.

Why any of them? The idea of Elenwen with that kind of power is frightening

[The first Galactic Republic]

Or Ralof... Or Tullius.... or hell even Elenwen possibly.

Why any of them? The idea of Elenwen with that kind of power is frightening

Then again, Dragonrend is basically a racism and hatred powered shout.

Elenwen wouldn’t need the Elder Scroll. She’d start with it.

[San Lumen]

Why any of them? The idea of Elenwen with that kind of power is frightening

Then again, Dragonrend is basically a racism and hatred powered shout.

Elenwen wouldn’t need the Elder Scroll. She’d start with it.

Hence why I almost never use it as I believe it’s creation to be unnatural and immoral.

She very possibly could

[Dresderstan]

Why any of them? The idea of Elenwen with that kind of power is frightening

Then again, Dragonrend is basically a racism and hatred powered shout.

Elenwen wouldn’t need the Elder Scroll. She’d start with it.

Actually it's more of a shout of mortality, and considering that Thalmor want their godhood they perceive was stolen from them and Tiber being a God is heresy, it'd also be quite hypocritical but funny at the same time when you think about it. A woman bent on eradicating the worship of a man as a god to achieve her own godhood using a shout on the Nordic god of Destruction.

[The first Galactic Republic]

Then again, Dragonrend is basically a racism and hatred powered shout.

Elenwen wouldn’t need the Elder Scroll. She’d start with it.

Actually it's more of a shout of mortality, and considering that Thalmor want their godhood they perceive was stolen from them and Tiber being a God is heresy, it'd also be quite hypocritical but funny at the same time when you think about it. A woman bent on eradicating the worship of a man as a god to achieve her own godhood using a shout on the Nordic god of Destruction.

*Elenwen goes to Sovngarde later in the quest*

All the Nord Heroes: “Wat”

[The Imperial Reach]

Miraak is cool, ngl.

[The first Galactic Republic]

Miraak is cool, ngl.

Miraak does have a lot of “rule of cool” going for him, and I like his premise. I just wish they did more with him.

He’s kind of a flat character. He just wants to take over the world because he can. It’d be more interesting if he had a real ideology behind his rebellion. If he were trying to genuinely change the world and build something new. They could have made him more like Dagoth Ur. Given him real goals and more extensive conversations with the Dragonborn. They could have at least given him some crazy Numidium or Akulakhan tier shit up his sleeve to shake things up.

I feel the way Hermaeus Mora was written in Dragonborn also undermined Miraak’s potential. The threat of his character was subverted by his inability to leave Apocrypha. He wasn’t all that dangerous stuck up there, and even if he did manage to eventually escape back to Mundus by having people hammer away at the All Maker stones enough or whatever, there’s no reason why he couldn’t have been stopped then.

Imo he should have been freed from Oblivion. Like, imagine if he’d already enslaved half of Solstheim and Raven Rock was really struggling to hold out against him, their defense weakened by Miraak’s occasional ability to mentally dominate characters inside the city and add them to the people he’d enthralled. Maybe the characters initially helping you to oppose him at the start of the main DLC questline would gradually give way to his mental domination, and in gameplay even sidequest givers and vendors would be possessed over time. This would give the player a real sense of urgency in stopping him.

Or imagine if an entire section of Apocrypha had fallen under his control and Hermaeus Mora couldn’t influence it anymore. What if Miraak had been a mortal who well and truly managed to dick over a Daedric Lord, even when originally starting in a lesser position after being defeated by Vahlok? Now that would have been a badass Miraak.

Instead he’s kinda helpless in the grand scheme of things. He can only hope his plan to leave Oblivion works before the Dragonborn makes their way to him, and when that inevitably happens, Hermaeus Mora just waits for him to be sufficiently weakened then stabs him through the back. Big whoop.

The Daedric Princes in Skyrim were too powerful to be interesting characters anymore. It’s not enjoyable for the player to force the Dragonborn to suck Nocturnal toes and Hermaeus Mora tentacles in Oblivion for the rest of forever because the main quest requires you to become their plaything. Like, the Greek gods from real world mythology were also these all powerful yet petty entities mortals couldn’t ever really challenge, but at least you had, like, god on god wars with mortal proxies to set the stage for some epic storytelling. In Elder Scrolls, Daedric Princes frequently just get what they want in exchange for helping you solve some lesser problem. What’s even the point? Where’s the engaging story? Dragonborn’s plot is basically just about how cool and powerful Bethesda’s Cthulhu ripoff is. Why shill for a made up character? Fictional characters exist to be interesting and propel stories along, and they sacrificed Miraak’s potential, the main antagonist’s potential, in favor of a Daedric Prince side character.

If Morrowind were written this way, Dagoth Ur wouldn’t have most of his memetic dialogue in his end fight, Azura would hold the Nerevarine’s hand through the whole story, and at the end there’d be some revelation about how Azura outwitted you into being the new Dagoth Ur and how your heroes’ journey was a fat lie.

And jeez, when Bethesda does have some interesting development with a Daedric Prince, like the whole Sheogorath/Jyggalag conflict in Shivering Isles, they never revisit it.

Miraak could have been a new tier of Elder Scrolls baddie, but he’s barely more competent than Harkon in the end.

Still cool though.

[The Imperial Reach]

Miraak is cool, ngl.

Miraak does have a lot of “rule of cool” going for him, and I like his premise. I just wish they did more with him.

He’s kind of a flat character. He just wants to take over the world because he can. It’d be more interesting if he had a real ideology behind his rebellion. If he were trying to genuinely change the world and build something new. They could have made him more like Dagoth Ur. Given him real goals and more extensive conversations with the Dragonborn. They could have at least given him some crazy Numidium or Akulakhan tier shit up his sleeve to shake things up.

I feel the way Hermaeus Mora was written in Dragonborn also undermined Miraak’s potential. The threat of his character was subverted by his inability to leave Apocrypha. He wasn’t all that dangerous stuck up there, and even if he did manage to eventually escape back to Mundus by having people hammer away at the All Maker stones enough or whatever, there’s no reason why he couldn’t have been stopped then.

Imo he should have been freed from Oblivion. Like, imagine if he’d already enslaved half of Solstheim and Raven Rock was really struggling to hold out against him, their defense weakened by Miraak’s occasional ability to mentally dominate characters inside the city and add them to the people he’d enthralled. Maybe the characters initially helping you to oppose him at the start of the main DLC questline would gradually give way to his mental domination, and in gameplay even sidequest givers and vendors would be possessed over time. This would give the player a real sense of urgency in stopping him.

Or imagine if an entire section of Apocrypha had fallen under his control and Hermaeus Mora couldn’t influence it anymore. What if Miraak had been a mortal who well and truly managed to dick over a Daedric Lord, even when originally starting in a lesser position after being defeated by Vahlok? Now that would have been a badass Miraak.

Instead he’s kinda helpless in the grand scheme of things. He can only hope his plan to leave Oblivion works before the Dragonborn makes their way to him, and when that inevitably happens, Hermaeus Mora just waits for him to be sufficiently weakened then stabs him through the back. Big whoop.

The Daedric Princes in Skyrim were too powerful to be interesting characters anymore. It’s not enjoyable for the player to force the Dragonborn to suck Nocturnal toes and Hermaeus Mora tentacles in Oblivion for the rest of forever because the main quest requires you to become their plaything. Like, the Greek gods from real world mythology were also these all powerful yet petty entities mortals couldn’t ever really challenge, but at least you had, like, god on god wars with mortal proxies to set the stage for some epic storytelling. In Elder Scrolls, Daedric Princes frequently just get what they want in exchange for helping you solve some lesser problem. What’s even the point? Where’s the engaging story? Dragonborn’s plot is basically just about how cool and powerful Bethesda’s Cthulhu ripoff is. Why shill for a made up character? Fictional characters exist to be interesting and propel stories along, and they sacrificed Miraak’s potential, the main antagonist’s potential, in favor of a Daedric Prince side character.

If Morrowind were written this way, Dagoth Ur wouldn’t have most of his memetic dialogue in his end fight, Azura would hold the Nerevarine’s hand through the whole story, and at the end there’d be some revelation about how Azura outwitted you into being the new Dagoth Ur and how your heroes’ journey was a fat lie.

And jeez, when Bethesda does have some interesting development with a Daedric Prince, like the whole Sheogorath/Jyggalag conflict in Shivering Isles, they never revisit it.

Miraak could have been a new tier of Elder Scrolls baddie, but he’s barely more competent than Harkon in the end.

Still cool though.

I mostly agree.

But I like the whole "And so the First Dragonborn meets the Last Dragonborn at the Summit of Apocrypha" thing. It was neat. Miraak being able to leave Apocrypha I'm against because I think it's better he be stopped there rather than in Solstheim. But I think his influence over Solstheim should've been far greater than what it was so he seemed more threatening.

An interesting thing was that he mentions he needs TLD's soul in order to escape Apocrypha, but then that completely contradicts him sending assassins after you and then letting your leave Apocrypha the first time. They should've gone further with that explanation, IMO. Also a lot of lines of his were cut before release, some of which suggest he was a bit remorseful at having to kill TLD but he had to because it was the only way he could escape.

Personally I think his motivation was good enough, it just needed more fluff to it. We know he wants to leave Apocrypha after all this time but they never really say why other than that he's tired of serving Mora. His motive needed more fat to it other than just "I want out!". If there was some sort of "prophecy" to explain his return here and now rather than the last few thousand years that would've been a bit better. Harkon sat waiting around for his prophecy to come to fruition before he started making his moves. Miraak should've been the same, tbh.

[The Imperial Reach]

Miraak should've had a body count, tbh. Controlling people's minds is bad and all but there should've been some bloodshed from his efforts. It'd make him more of a threat. Him willing to do whatever it takes to escape Apocrypha is better than him just being a generic bad guy. Maybe some blood sacrifices or something?

[The Emerald Legion]

Then another random becomes dragonborn. The DB was saved to stop Alduin. Do not think "what if alduin was slightly late", what if Lokir didn't run off and what if that one Stormcloak didn't volunteer for the block. The divines worked subtly (by fantasy standards that is) but if despite their influence the dragonborn dies than someone else is now randomly dragonborn. That possibly means Ulfric, and uh the world would be better off destroyed by Alduin than with Ulfric as THE dragonborn.

No, the Dragonborn was born with the soul of a dragon. That means it happened at birth, not at some random moment in time. There's no doubt the Divines probably did intervene to stop TLD from dying so soon, but IMO it was stupid to put the player on the block BEFORE THE GUY THE EMPIRE WANTED TO EXECUTE IN THE FIRST FUCKING PLACE.

So thank Godd Coward for that nonsense.

Serious question. Why is that stupid? For a thousand years or so, dragon attacks just didn't happen. And good luck getting a more traditional armed force into Helgen to rescue Ulfric.

[Valrifell]

No, the Dragonborn was born with the soul of a dragon. That means it happened at birth, not at some random moment in time. There's no doubt the Divines probably did intervene to stop TLD from dying so soon, but IMO it was stupid to put the player on the block BEFORE THE GUY THE EMPIRE WANTED TO EXECUTE IN THE FIRST FUCKING PLACE.

So thank Godd Coward for that nonsense.

Serious question. Why is that stupid? For a thousand years or so, dragon attacks just didn't happen. And good luck getting a more traditional armed force into Helgen to rescue Ulfric.

Personally, I don't see why Ulfric wasn't paraded around the Imperial City and executed after much fanfare, I mean they were already in secure Imperial territory and Cyrodiil was just a road away to the south. If they were going to move Ulfric after capturing him, why Helgen? Why not keep the cart rolling and take him to Cyrodiil where you know there are literally no Stormcloak rebels?

[Dresderstan]

Serious question. Why is that stupid? For a thousand years or so, dragon attacks just didn't happen. And good luck getting a more traditional armed force into Helgen to rescue Ulfric.

Personally, I don't see why Ulfric wasn't paraded around the Imperial City and executed after much fanfare, I mean they were already in secure Imperial territory and Cyrodiil was just a road away to the south. If they were going to move Ulfric after capturing him, why Helgen? Why not keep the cart rolling and take him to Cyrodiil where you know there are literally no Stormcloak rebels?

Because Bethesda plot.