Metal Genre Music Discussion - Vol. 4

[The Imperial Reach]

Yeah, except none of that is true as they sound nothing like Iron Maiden.

Because matters were simplified.

If they don't sound anything like Iron Maiden, then on what basis can you reasonably argue that they're an Iron Maiden rip off?

I'll go ahead and answer for you: None. Your argument has zero ground to stand on. It's headcanon based on an ignorant opinion. If you don't like Sabaton, fine, but don't make up excuses to call them bad.

Why are people taking "I don't like [band name here]" as a personal offence? I'm not talking only about Sabaton but in general.

It's one thing to say "I don't like [name of thing here]"; it's another thing to say "I don't like [name of thing here] because it's bad". The former is an opinion, the latter is a statement of fact. Yet a statement of fact without evidence is, by it's nature, factually incorrect and therefor an invalid criticism.

If you say you don't like Phil Collins, that's fine. That's your opinion. Not everybody's ears are attuned the same way so we don't all enjoy the same music. But if you say you don't like Phil Collins because you think he has no talent then you're just being an ignoramus. He most certainly has talent, otherwise he wouldn't be one of the world's best-selling artists with numerous rewards and hit songs. If you want to criticize him, sure, they say he's an asshole. If you want to criticize is music, fine, some of it's overrated and like every artist he makes a bad/meh song every now and then. But you can't call him a hack because he isn't. Nobody says you have to like him or his music, but that doesn't mean you can just freely trash him and call him garbage.

Hurd likes to dump on Sabaton by calling them generic and an Iron Maiden copy, neither of which is true. Sabaton sounds nothing like generic power metal or even Iron Maiden, and even Hurd has admitted this, yet he continues to believe his uninformed opinions. He's been called out on it before and has refused to change them. That is ignorance, pure and simple. Nobody is saying he has to like Sabaton; but his 'criticisms' (read: excuses) for this dislike are based on factual incorrectness. He has no idea what he's talking about and deserves to be ridiculed for it.

[Andsed]

Does anyone have any good Symphonic metal recommendations? I have been listening to some and I am now craving it.

[Cadonica]

Because matters were simplified.

If they don't sound anything like Iron Maiden, then on what basis can you reasonably argue that they're an Iron Maiden rip off?

I'll go ahead and answer for you: None. Your argument has zero ground to stand on. It's headcanon based on an ignorant opinion. If you don't like Sabaton, fine, but don't make up excuses to call them bad.

Why are people taking "I don't like [band name here]" as a personal offence? I'm not talking only about Sabaton but in general.

It's one thing to say "I don't like [name of thing here]"; it's another thing to say "I don't like [name of thing here] because it's bad". The former is an opinion, the latter is a statement of fact. Yet a statement of fact without evidence is, by it's nature, factually incorrect and therefor an invalid criticism.

No, the latter is an opinion as well. Just because someone leaves in my opinion out doesn't mean shit. When it comes to music or other works of culture "it's bad" means "it's bad in my opinion" even without explicitly mentioning "in my opinion". Saying that something is objectively bad is a statement of fact.

Think about it. When someone says "I don't like X" it's almost always followed by "Why?" and if "it's bad" isn't an acceptable answer, that question is rendered impossible to answer without repeating "I don't like it" or going to a five minute rant about it. "It's bad" is an opinion, not a fact.

Furthermore that STILL doesn't answer my question. Why are people treating opposing opinions or factually incorrect statements as personal insults? Unless someone is shitting on YOUR band that YOU are a member of, it shouldn't matter one bit. It's their loss, not yours.

[Cadonica]

Does anyone have any good Symphonic metal recommendations? I have been listening to some and I am now craving it.

Avantasia and if you can handle a black metal twist, Anorexia Nervosa. And if you somehow haven't heard of them already, Nightwish is a must.

I'm not the biggest fan of symphonic metal but whatever

[Cadonica]

You should have seen discussions I've had with die-hard fans over negative reviews I wrote, it is astounding. To some people a band cannot do any wrong, no matter how much the album sucks and how much constructive criticism you pack into the review, and they will defend their belief to death. Well, maybe not that far, but still. Latest example was the last Sonata Arctica album. It's been a while that I received as much flak for my opinion, it is kind of headshakingly amusing.

And if you say you're a fan too, you get treated as if you just committed high treason

[Tikariot]

You should have seen discussions I've had with die-hard fans over negative reviews I wrote, it is astounding. To some people a band cannot do any wrong, no matter how much the album sucks and how much constructive criticism you pack into the review, and they will defend their belief to death. Well, maybe not that far, but still. Latest example was the last Sonata Arctica album. It's been a while that I received as much flak for my opinion, it is kind of headshakingly amusing.

And if you say you're a fan too, you get treated as if you just committed high treason

Oh God yes! And it does not matter how well founded and explained your opinion is...

[Andsed]

Yeah, except none of that is true as they sound nothing like Iron Maiden.

Because matters were simplified.

I honestly don't get what this is supposed to mean. If Sabaton sounds very different from Iron Maiden(which imo they do) then how does "simplification" make them a rip off? It really feels like your stretching here Hurde.

Does anyone have any good Symphonic metal recommendations? I have been listening to some and I am now craving it.

Avantasia and if you can handle a black metal twist, Anorexia Nervosa. And if you somehow haven't heard of them already, Nightwish is a must.

I'm not the biggest fan of symphonic metal but whatever

Thank you.

[Tikariot]

Does anyone have any good Symphonic metal recommendations? I have been listening to some and I am now craving it.

OK, this is going to be a fairly long list, but you asked for it

There are different strains of symphonic metal, so it depends on which one you are going for, but here goes:
Nightwish
Epica
Within Temptation
Therion (if you want symphonic, stay away from anything before Theli)
Operus
Xandria
Leaves' Eyes
Diabolus in Musica
Visions of Atlantis
Delain
early Edenbridge
Sirenia
Imperial Age

This should keep you afloat for a while

[Hurdergaryp]

Because matters were simplified.

I honestly don't get what this is supposed to mean. If Sabaton sounds very different from Iron Maiden(which imo they do) then how does "simplification" make them a rip off? It really feels like your stretching here Hurde.

Nothing wrong with a good stretch. Rhythmically Sabaton is typically power metal, that makes a difference. Meanwhile the melodies used are less elaborate than common in the work of Iron Maiden. Doesn't mean the influence isn't there.

[Andsed]

Does anyone have any good Symphonic metal recommendations? I have been listening to some and I am now craving it.

OK, this is going to be a fairly long list, but you asked for it

There are different strains of symphonic metal, so it depends on which one you are going for, but here goes:
Nightwish
Epica
Within Temptation
Therion (if you want symphonic, stay away from anything before Theli)
Operus
Xandria
Leaves' Eyes
Diabolus in Musica
Visions of Atlantis
Delain
early Edenbridge
Sirenia
Imperial Age

This should keep you afloat for a while

I will definitely check them out once I have time. Thank you.

[Hurdergaryp]

The two albums before Theli (Ho Drakon Ho Megas and Lepaca Kliffoth) are pretty symphonic as well, but still closer to Therion's original death metal sound. Theli is much more an opera affair with the choirs. If symphonic metal dominated by massive choirs is your thing, also check out Dol Ammad. That Greek project tends to use only choirs as the vocal part of its scifi metal compositions. Another interesting band is Fleshgod Apocalypse, the rather unique symphonic opera death metal act from Italy.

[Cadonica]

Another interesting band is Fleshgod Apocalypse, the rather unique symphonic opera death metal act from Italy.

I didn't mention Fleshgod because my favorite album of theirs is the debut which is devoid of symphonic elements. Outside of outros/intros that is.

[Tikariot]

The two albums before Theli (Ho Drakon Ho Megas and Lepaca Kliffoth) are pretty symphonic as well, but still closer to Therion's original death metal sound. Theli is much more an opera affair with the choirs. If symphonic metal dominated by massive choirs is your thing, also check out Dol Ammad. That Greek project tends to use only choirs as the vocal part of its scifi metal compositions. Another interesting band is Fleshgod Apocalypse, the rather unique symphonic opera death metal act from Italy.

I went with Theli as tipping point as the growls might be putting newcomers off.

[Tikariot]

Anyone into kick-ass power metal, check out my fellow Calgarians Ravenous E.H..

They also have an incredible cover of Blind Guardian's "The Bard's Song"!

[The Imperial Reach]

If they don't sound anything like Iron Maiden, then on what basis can you reasonably argue that they're an Iron Maiden rip off?

I'll go ahead and answer for you: None. Your argument has zero ground to stand on. It's headcanon based on an ignorant opinion. If you don't like Sabaton, fine, but don't make up excuses to call them bad.



It's one thing to say "I don't like [name of thing here]"; it's another thing to say "I don't like [name of thing here] because it's bad". The former is an opinion, the latter is a statement of fact. Yet a statement of fact without evidence is, by it's nature, factually incorrect and therefor an invalid criticism.

No, the latter is an opinion as well. Just because someone leaves in my opinion out doesn't mean shit. When it comes to music or other works of culture "it's bad" means "it's bad in my opinion" even without explicitly mentioning "in my opinion". Saying that something is objectively bad is a statement of fact.

Think about it. When someone says "I don't like X" it's almost always followed by "Why?" and if "it's bad" isn't an acceptable answer, that question is rendered impossible to answer without repeating "I don't like it" or going to a five minute rant about it. "It's bad" is an opinion, not a fact.

Furthermore that STILL doesn't answer my question. Why are people treating opposing opinions or factually incorrect statements as personal insults? Unless someone is shitting on YOUR band that YOU are a member of, it shouldn't matter one bit. It's their loss, not yours.

No, that's not how it works.

"It's bad" is not an opinion. It doesn't become an opinion when you add "I think" at the beginning or "in my opinion" at the end, either. That's not how it works. "Bad" is a description of quality, which is not subjective. When milk goes sour, it becomes "bad" because it's quality has degraded. Just because somebody likes the taste of sour milk doesn't make it of subjective quality as sour milk is still bad for you even if you like it, therefor it is by quality standards "bad".

Hurd isn't saying "I don't like Sabaton", he's saying "Sabaton is just Iron Maiden but worse" which is a subjective opinion being presented as objective fact when it is very much not. His argument has no leg to stand on, yet he continues to peddle it - either because he genuinely believes it out of sheer ignorance, or because he needs to justify his dislike of Sabaton for some reason. It'd be one thing if he didn't like Sabaton. That's fine, we all have our own tastes. But to call it essentially a rip off of Iron Maiden is simply untrue. Opinion doesn't enter into it when it can easily be proven wrong. The two bands sound nothing alike; the only thing they share in common is power metal. If we're to take Hurd's opinion as fact, then we must them assume that every power metal sounds the same - which is obviously not true. Some people may disagree, and they are free to, but they are still wrong. "I have an opinion!" does not negate one's wrongness. Not everyone's opinion is equal.

If I said that White Supremacists should be in office, that would be a subjective opinion. If I said that White Supremacists being in office was in the best interests of everyone, that would be a subjective opinion presented as objective fact and factually incorrect by default. We know White Supremacists being in office would not be in the best interests for everyone, as their ideology is naturally racist and bigoted and therefor exclusionary to many people. Stating it's "just my opinion" doesn't make it any more valid. It's a trash opinion and belongs in the dumpster. Opinions can be wrong.

I, personally, don't care if Hurd doesn't like Sabaton. But going around trying to degrade the band by calling it a simplified carbon copy of an older, more popular band is just being ignorant and obnoxious. It's a view that contributes nothing to any discussion, has no basis in fact to support it, and baits fans of the band by insinuating they like a shitty band that ripped off another, better band. Is that worth getting upset over? No, of course not, but people don't like it when the stuff they like is trashed by butthurt old grumps who don't like all new stuff kids listen to these days.

Hurd wants to stick his head in the sand then fine, let him, but going around slandering people because you don't like the music they make is just petty and immature. It'd be one thing if his criticism actually had merit, but just listening to any song by either band in question will show you it doesn't. His excuses of "simplification" are weak and baseless and don't support his claim at all.

I honestly don't get what this is supposed to mean. If Sabaton sounds very different from Iron Maiden(which imo they do) then how does "simplification" make them a rip off? It really feels like your stretching here Hurde.

Nothing wrong with a good stretch. Rhythmically Sabaton is typically power metal, that makes a difference. Meanwhile the melodies used are less elaborate than common in the work of Iron Maiden. Doesn't mean the influence isn't there.

A stretched argument is a weak argument. Of course Sabaton has Iron Maiden influence; they're a power metal band, which Iron Maiden helped spawn. Having influence doesn't make you a rip off of that band. That's absurd.

[Hurdergaryp]

Nothing wrong with a good stretch. Rhythmically Sabaton is typically power metal, that makes a difference. Meanwhile the melodies used are less elaborate than common in the work of Iron Maiden. Doesn't mean the influence isn't there.

A stretched argument is a weak argument. Of course Sabaton has Iron Maiden influence; they're a power metal band, which Iron Maiden helped spawn. Having influence doesn't make you a rip off of that band. That's absurd.

Oh, I wasn't talking about stretched arguments. A stretch every now and then does wonders for my arm muscles. And please point me to the exact message where I, with exactly those words, stated that Sabaton is an Iron Maiden rip-off. There seems to have been a bit of creativity involved when the first person came to that conclusion.

[The Imperial Reach]

A stretched argument is a weak argument. Of course Sabaton has Iron Maiden influence; they're a power metal band, which Iron Maiden helped spawn. Having influence doesn't make you a rip off of that band. That's absurd.

Oh, I wasn't talking about stretched arguments. A stretch every now and then does wonders for my arm muscles. And please point me to the exact message where I, with exactly those words, stated that Sabaton is an Iron Maiden rip-off. There seems to have been a bit of creativity involved when the first person came to that conclusion.

You can word it however you want, but this:

There actually are a lot of people that dislike Sabaton. And to be honest with their image and lyrics and pretty easily digestible music they are a fairly easy target for that, too.

Just as a disclaimer: I've been following the band since before their debut album, so I am not a disliker

Sabaton as a commercial concept is pretty much based upon considering the music of Iron Maiden to be too complex and intricate for the modern juvenile metal fan, so it was decided to simplify matters in order to make it more palatable for those who want to pretend to be hard & heavy while playing safe at the same time.

Still means "Iron Maiden rip off".

Also, nice little jab at Sabaton fans being posers. I missed that the first time. Very mature of you.

[Hurdergaryp]

Oh, I wasn't talking about stretched arguments. A stretch every now and then does wonders for my arm muscles. And please point me to the exact message where I, with exactly those words, stated that Sabaton is an Iron Maiden rip-off. There seems to have been a bit of creativity involved when the first person came to that conclusion.

You can word it however you want, but this:

Sabaton as a commercial concept is pretty much based upon considering the music of Iron Maiden to be too complex and intricate for the modern juvenile metal fan, so it was decided to simplify matters in order to make it more palatable for those who want to pretend to be hard & heavy while playing safe at the same time.

Still means "Iron Maiden rip off".

Also, nice little jab at Sabaton fans being posers. I missed that the first time. Very mature of you.

You're welcome. My writings truly are the gift that keeps on giving, it seems. Hidden meanings and occult wisdom are lurking beneath the surface, waiting for intrepid souls to discover them!

[Dumb Ideologies]

Hug it out, we're all friends here.

If someone played Sabaton I wouldn't actively be flailing to turn it off but I've never been into them.

[Cadonica]

Hug it out, we're all friends here.

If someone played Sabaton I wouldn't actively be flailing to turn it off but I've never been into them.

How much does one's life suck to only have angry people on an internet forum as friends?
*looks into mirror*
Oh...

---

Jokes aside, I'm a Sabaton fan. Somehow I'm not getting my panties in a twist because of Hurd (or other Sabaton haters). I wonder why.

[The Imperial Reach]

Hug it out, we're all friends here.

If someone played Sabaton I wouldn't actively be flailing to turn it off but I've never been into them.

How much does one's life suck to only have angry people on an internet forum as friends?
*looks into mirror*
Oh...

---

Jokes aside, I'm a Sabaton fan. Somehow I'm not getting my panties in a twist because of Hurd (or other Sabaton haters). I wonder why.

If he hadn't insinuated Sabaton fans were posers, I might be able to just roll my eyes and let it go. But once you insult the fans, a line has been crossed. I'll joke about Country music all day long but I won't insult and have never insulted people who like to listen to it.

[Corrian]

You should have seen discussions I've had with die-hard fans over negative reviews I wrote, it is astounding. To some people a band cannot do any wrong, no matter how much the album sucks and how much constructive criticism you pack into the review, and they will defend their belief to death. Well, maybe not that far, but still. Latest example was the last Sonata Arctica album. It's been a while that I received as much flak for my opinion, it is kind of headshakingly amusing.

This is why I try to like things on an album-by-album basis. Yes, there are bands I expect to make something good or decent always, but getting this cult-like worship of a band is unhealthy and pathetic to me, so if they release a shitty album, I'll consider it a shitty album.

[Andsed]

Hug it out, we're all friends here.

If someone played Sabaton I wouldn't actively be flailing to turn it off but I've never been into them.

No. Your not my dad! You can't make me do anything!

[Cadonica]

You should have seen discussions I've had with die-hard fans over negative reviews I wrote, it is astounding. To some people a band cannot do any wrong, no matter how much the album sucks and how much constructive criticism you pack into the review, and they will defend their belief to death. Well, maybe not that far, but still. Latest example was the last Sonata Arctica album. It's been a while that I received as much flak for my opinion, it is kind of headshakingly amusing.

This is why I try to like things on an album-by-album basis. Yes, there are bands I expect to make something good or decent always, but getting this cult-like worship of a band is unhealthy and pathetic to me, so if they release a shitty album, I'll consider it a shitty album.

Healthy attitude for sure. As much as I love Metallica, that doesn't stop me from hating Lulu and Reload
And when I hear "new Metallica album" that doesn't make me go "zomg its gunna be awsum instant buy!!" even though I'll buy it anyways, because hey, I got all the other albums too and completing a collection is fun.

Though in addition to that I also like albums on song by song basis, simply because of how my personal rating system works. One album might be 4/5 without any highlights, but one album might be 3/5 with 3 really strong songs but the rest being shit. I might listen to those few songs of 3/5 album more than anything on the 4/5 one, if that makes any sense.

[Corrian]

This is why I try to like things on an album-by-album basis. Yes, there are bands I expect to make something good or decent always, but getting this cult-like worship of a band is unhealthy and pathetic to me, so if they release a shitty album, I'll consider it a shitty album.

Healthy attitude for sure. As much as I love Metallica, that doesn't stop me from hating Lulu and Reload
And when I hear "new Metallica album" that doesn't make me go "zomg its gunna be awsum instant buy!!" even though I'll buy it anyways, because hey, I got all the other albums too and completing a collection is fun.

Though in addition to that I also like albums on song by song basis, simply because of how my personal rating system works. One album might be 4/5 without any highlights, but one album might be 3/5 with 3 really strong songs but the rest being shit. I might listen to those few songs of 3/5 album more than anything on the 4/5 one, if that makes any sense.

There's plenty of artists I legitimately just listen to because I know the album will have 3 or 4 gems while the rest may be meh. And I do that with all their albums when they come out, because its the same story.