NationStates

Salus Maior wrote:

Great Savaya wrote:Well, Synths aren't biologically human.

They're made from human DNA. Shaun's DNA.

They're not human, but they are people.

So if i make a burger using cows meat, the burger is not an animal, but it's a cow?

Salus Maior wrote:

The Islands of Versilia wrote:Ya know that guy in the Institute who thinks the whole thing should have more attention and research to it?
I like him.

Well, I like Scribe Haylen from the BoS who's not as extreme towards Synths. But one person isn't going to make a difference in any given faction, particularly if the others just brush them off like that Institute guy you're talking about.

Aye....
I wish there was more choice in how the sole survivor could shape their faction with their choices.

The Islands of Versilia wrote:

Salus Maior wrote:
Well, I like Scribe Haylen from the BoS who's not as extreme towards Synths. But one person isn't going to make a difference in any given faction, particularly if the others just brush them off like that Institute guy you're talking about.

Aye....
I wish there was more choice in how the sole survivor could shape their faction with their choices.

That'd take away from storytelling.

Great Savaya wrote:

Salus Maior wrote:
They're made from human DNA. Shaun's DNA.

They're not human, but they are people.

So if i make a burger using cows meat, the burger is not an animal, but it's a cow?

Burgers aren't sentient, independent beings.

Salus Maior wrote:

Great Savaya wrote:
So if i make a burger using cows meat, the burger is not an animal, but it's a cow?

Burgers aren't sentient.

Maybe you got a point there.
However the Synths were designed as servants.

Great Savaya wrote:

Salus Maior wrote:
Burgers aren't sentient.

Maybe you got a point there.
However the Synths were designed as servants.

You could say that Black slaves were bred to be servants, no?

Anyway, if that were the case they shouldn't have made them completely indistinguishable from a human being to the point where they can be self-motivated and free-thinking.

Salus Maior wrote:

Great Savaya wrote:Maybe you got a point there.
However the Synths were designed as servants.

You could say that Black slaves were bred to be servants, no?

Anyway, if that were the case they shouldn't have made them completely indistinguishable from a human being to the point where they can be self-motivated and free-thinking.

The first Africans were created as free human beings, and freedom is the universal right for all humans.
However as you said yourself, Synths are not human. The Institute in my opinion is doing the right thing to save humanity.

They do have toilet paper after all!

What's with this weird belief that he Institute is doing what it does for humanity? It just keeps to itself. It's not trying to build the whole world up from scratch like House, or preserve the old United States like the Enclave. They just sit around for the most part.

Great Savaya wrote:

Salus Maior wrote:
You could say that Black slaves were bred to be servants, no?

Anyway, if that were the case they shouldn't have made them completely indistinguishable from a human being to the point where they can be self-motivated and free-thinking.

The first Africans were created as free human beings, and freedom is the universal right for all humans.
However as you said yourself, Synths are not human. The Institute in my opinion is doing the right thing to save humanity.

They do have toilet paper after all!

Toilet paper is something the entire wasteland needs, yes.
A fusion of the Minutemen and the Institute's tech would be the way I'd end Fallout 4.
If I could.

Great Savaya wrote:

Salus Maior wrote:
You could say that Black slaves were bred to be servants, no?

Anyway, if that were the case they shouldn't have made them completely indistinguishable from a human being to the point where they can be self-motivated and free-thinking.

The first Africans were created as free human beings, and freedom is the universal right for all humans.
However as you said yourself, Synths are not human. The Institute in my opinion is doing the right thing to save humanity.

They do have toilet paper after all!

So it's fine to enslave non-human sentients? Should we chain up all the ghouls then and make them do our dirty work?

And no, they're not. They're perfectly fine killing off humans on the surface whenever they need to satiate their curiosity.

You know that Father's pet projects caused the Super Mutant infestation in the Commonwealth, right? They brought the FEV over here and then experimented on kidnapped people with it, turning them into Super mutants and then releasing them.

In fact, Swan, the behemoth in Swan's Pond, was their first victim. And the thing is, there was no reason to do the FEV tests, they always failed to do what the Institute was looking for it to do, but they kept kidnapping people and then subjecting them to the FEV for no reason. They only stopped because Virgil sabotaged it and left the Institute.

I'm sorry, but siding with the Institute literally makes no sense. I mean they killed your spouse and kidnapped your son, right? So why would you side with them? Shaun at least has an excuse, he was probably brainwashed since then. Idk about any of you guys, but if I had that happen to be I'd mercilessly destroy them. I don't give a damn what their reasons were.

Of course that doesn't even scratch the surface of how immoral they are, I mean they make the Legion look like saints.

Gloriana Americana wrote:
Of course that doesn't even scratch the surface of how immoral they are, I mean they make the Legion look like saints.

Ehhh....

I'd rank the Institute a bit higher on the moral meter than the Legion, raiders would be less moral than the Legion, and the Fiends would be the least moral.

Salus Maior wrote:

Great Savaya wrote:
So if i make a burger using cows meat, the burger is not an animal, but it's a cow?

Burgers aren't sentient, independent beings.

Well, are synths truly that?

Have you ever heard about the "Chinese room" thought experiment?
[url]
‎https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room[/url]

Either synths are conscious beings OR they simulate consious beings.

I believe they simulate them.

Why?

1. They can be reprogrammed for other tasks (Coursers) and their memories can be replaced without much issue (institute mind-wiping, railroad messing around), Curie's memories can be copied to a synth without issue showing us that they ARE, without doubt, robots.

2. Well, there are self-aware AI's in fallout, but those are room-sized. That's several magnitudes larger than what can be put in a synth.

3. The institute didn't start from scratch to build the gen 3 synths. The gen 1 and gen 2 synths came first. If gen 1 and 2's aren't self-aware, why would gen 3's be?

4. The institute, the faction who designed and builds them, considers them to be automata, little different from other robots.

5. There is no reason why synths would NEED to be sentient or self-aware.

Alekseandrea wrote:

Salus Maior wrote:
Burgers aren't sentient, independent beings.

Well, are synths truly that?

Have you ever heard about the "Chinese room" thought experiment?
[url]
‎https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room[/url]

Either synths are conscious beings OR they simulate consious beings.

I believe they simulate them.

Why?

1. They can be reprogrammed for other tasks (Coursers) and their memories can be replaced without much issue (institute mind-wiping, railroad messing around), Curie's memories can be copied to a synth without issue showing us that they ARE, without doubt, robots.

2. Well, there are self-aware AI's in fallout, but those are room-sized. That's several magnitudes larger than what can be put in a synth.

3. The institute didn't start from scratch to build the gen 3 synths. The gen 1 and gen 2 synths came first. If gen 1 and 2's aren't self-aware, why would gen 3's be?

4. The institute, the faction who designed and builds them, considers them to be automata, little different from other robots.

5. There is no reason why synths would NEED to be sentient or self-aware.

Those are some good points.

Salus Maior wrote:

Great Savaya wrote:The first Africans were created as free human beings, and freedom is the universal right for all humans.
However as you said yourself, Synths are not human. The Institute in my opinion is doing the right thing to save humanity.

They do have toilet paper after all!

So it's fine to enslave non-human sentients? Should we chain up all the ghouls then and make them do our dirty work?

And no, they're not. They're perfectly fine killing off humans on the surface whenever they need to satiate their curiosity.

You know that Father's pet projects caused the Super Mutant infestation in the Commonwealth, right? They brought the FEV over here and then experimented on kidnapped people with it, turning them into Super mutants and then releasing them.

In fact, Swan, the behemoth in Swan's Pond, was their first victim. And the thing is, there was no reason to do the FEV tests, they always failed to do what the Institute was looking for it to do, but they kept kidnapping people and then subjecting them to the FEV for no reason. They only stopped because Virgil sabotaged it and left the Institute.

Ghouls were created from radiation as hideous abominations, but they're humans technically.
The Synths were created as machines, loyal androids.

I'd easily side with the Institute. Why? Because the people that had my spouse kid and stole my child are long gone. They have no sway over the organization, and furthermore, I am made acting Director. The Institute has the best capacity for good in the Commonwealth, in terms of uplifting the life of the average Wastelander. It merely takes some prodding.

Also, I'll agree that a synth is sentient. It is not, however, sapient. They simulate it, but only when programmed to do so. With true sapience, they'd be able to escape their base programming after a memory wipe. The entire existence of Harkness in 3 disproves this.

It's function was a primarily tactical one, the retrieving of synths and the elimination of hostiles. When it underwent a memory wipe, this function should be erased. Yet it "chooses" to become a guard of Rivet City, a combat role. This is an example supporting that a synth cannot escape it's programming, as they are a tool. A person can ignore their baser instincts, they can choose to not give in. A synth, on the other hand, cannot.

Additionally, DiMA and Nick are not applicable examples. Nick's OS is that of two pre-existing Human brainscans, thus making him a person, not a synth. He is sapient.

DiMA, like Nick, is an experiment. He was allowed to freely develop his personality with no base function. Hence, DiMA achieved sapience.

Long story short, synths are more on the line of an intelligent dog, rather than a person.

Alekseandrea wrote:
Well, are synths truly that?

Have you ever heard about the "Chinese room" thought experiment?
[url]
‎https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room[/url]

Either synths are conscious beings OR they simulate consious beings.

I believe they simulate them.

Why?

1. They can be reprogrammed for other tasks (Coursers) and their memories can be replaced without much issue (institute mind-wiping, railroad messing around), Curie's memories can be copied to a synth without issue showing us that they ARE, without doubt, robots.

2. Well, there are self-aware AI's in fallout, but those are room-sized. That's several magnitudes larger than what can be put in a synth.

3. The institute didn't start from scratch to build the gen 3 synths. The gen 1 and gen 2 synths came first. If gen 1 and 2's aren't self-aware, why would gen 3's be?

4. The institute, the faction who designed and builds them, considers them to be automata, little different from other robots.

5. There is no reason why synths would NEED to be sentient or self-aware.

1. Simulating conscious beings would require that they're always implanted with a personality. Some Synths are, like Nick, but others can develop their own personalities, this is obvious from the mind-wipes. Synths are partially mechanical, that's true and undeniable. However they are largely biological, they're grown with biological components derived from Shaun's DNA. And in fact, cannibals can eat Synths and literally not tell that it's different from a human. This would put them somewhere in-between human clones and cyborgs, not robots.

2. Synths, and basically anything else the Institute makes, blows pre-war tech out of the water. Unless that thing is their laser weapons.

3. Because the Institute made them to be self-aware, for the same reason real life scientists want to make self-aware robots. Because it's a major scientific breakthrough, and because they can. Of course the Institute does this and still claims they're just machines in the same vein as toasters.

4. So? The Institute can be wrong. As it is a lot of the time.

5. You're right, the Institute didn't need to make sentient bio-mechanical beings. But they did because they can. *Insert Maxson saying "science run amok"*

Salus Maior wrote:

Alekseandrea wrote:
Well, are synths truly that?

Have you ever heard about the "Chinese room" thought experiment?
[url]
‎https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room[/url]

Either synths are conscious beings OR they simulate consious beings.

I believe they simulate them.

Why?

1. They can be reprogrammed for other tasks (Coursers) and their memories can be replaced without much issue (institute mind-wiping, railroad messing around), Curie's memories can be copied to a synth without issue showing us that they ARE, without doubt, robots.

2. Well, there are self-aware AI's in fallout, but those are room-sized. That's several magnitudes larger than what can be put in a synth.

3. The institute didn't start from scratch to build the gen 3 synths. The gen 1 and gen 2 synths came first. If gen 1 and 2's aren't self-aware, why would gen 3's be?

4. The institute, the faction who designed and builds them, considers them to be automata, little different from other robots.

5. There is no reason why synths would NEED to be sentient or self-aware.

1. Simulating conscious beings would require that they're always implanted with a personality. Some Synths are, like Nick, but others can develop their own personalities, this is obvious from the mind-wipes. Synths are partially mechanical, that's true and undeniable. However they are largely biological, they're grown with biological components derived from Shaun's DNA. And in fact, cannibals can eat Synths and literally not tell that it's different from a human. This would put them somewhere in-between human clones and cyborgs, not robots.

2. Synths, and basically anything else the Institute makes, blows pre-war tech out of the water. Unless that thing is their laser weapons.

3. Because the Institute made them to be self-aware, for the same reason real life scientists want to make self-aware robots. Because it's a major scientific breakthrough, and because they can. Of course the Institute does this and still claims they're just machines in the same vein as toasters.

4. So? The Institute can be wrong. As it is a lot of the time.

5. You're right, the Institute didn't need to make sentient bio-mechanical beings. But they did because they can. *Insert Maxson saying "science run amok"*

They do not share the same worth as a human.

They were CREATED with a PURPOSE.

Alekseandrea wrote:

Salus Maior wrote:
Burgers aren't sentient, independent beings.

Well, are synths truly that?

Have you ever heard about the "Chinese room" thought experiment?
[url]
‎https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room[/url]

Either synths are conscious beings OR they simulate consious beings.

I believe they simulate them.

Why?

1. They can be reprogrammed for other tasks (Coursers) and their memories can be replaced without much issue (institute mind-wiping, railroad messing around), Curie's memories can be copied to a synth without issue showing us that they ARE, without doubt, robots.

2. Well, there are self-aware AI's in fallout, but those are room-sized. That's several magnitudes larger than what can be put in a synth.

3. The institute didn't start from scratch to build the gen 3 synths. The gen 1 and gen 2 synths came first. If gen 1 and 2's aren't self-aware, why would gen 3's be?

4. The institute, the faction who designed and builds them, considers them to be automata, little different from other robots.

5. There is no reason why synths would NEED to be sentient or self-aware.

Obligatory "Ghosts in the Machine" monologue.

1. Humans can be "reprogrammed," at least in the Fallout universe: the United States developed the CODE (Challenge, Opportunity, Discipline, Ethics) program to recondition soldiers and prisoners of war. Curie's mechanical memories are transcribed into a Synth's consciousness, but so are Kellogg's, and Kellogg was a human.
2. The Fallout wiki lists the Synths as the most advanced example of artificial intelligence.
3. Gen 1 and Gen 2 do exhibit a degree of self-awareness. They talk to themselves. Question. But they are also purely mechanical and lack a proper "brain". This is not the case with the third Generation, which are essentially 3D printed biomass cloned from human DNA. At various points in Fallout 4, the Gen 3 Synths are described as biologically indistinguishable from traditional humans: only an autopsy can distinguish between the two, most likely by finding whatever cybernetics the Institute implants them with.
4. But they most definitely are distinct from robots, and the fact that they were produced for a specific purpose doesn't mean that they can't deviate from that purpose.
5. I whole-heartedly agree: There is no reason for Synths to be self-aware. And this is why I consider the Institute to be too stupid to live. They get so caught up in the "Can we?" that "Should we?" gets thrown out the window. They already had a legion of reliable mechanical janitors to fulfill whatever menial labor needed to be done. Something they could smack around as much as they wanted to. Something that did not feel, or desire, or fear.

Then they wanted to make a Synth that could do those things. "I want something that can resent me for treating it like garbage," someone must have said.
"Simulates resent," someone must have replied.
"What's the difference?"
"One actually hates you, the other just thinks that it hates you."
"Which will be an excellent consolation when we're both smoldering in an irradiated crater together."
"I concur."

Does my point not make sense?

None of what you people said gives me reason to believe that Synths should be liberated. Nothing you said changes the fact that they're machines.

Prusslandia wrote:I'd easily side with the Institute. Why? Because the people that had my spouse kid and stole my child are long gone. They have no sway over the organization, and furthermore, I am made acting Director. The Institute has the best capacity for good in the Commonwealth, in terms of uplifting the life of the average Wastelander. It merely takes some prodding.

Also, I'll agree that a synth is sentient. It is not, however, sapient. They simulate it, but only when programmed to do so. With true sapience, they'd be able to escape their base programming after a memory wipe. The entire existence of Harkness in 3 disproves this.

It's function was a primarily tactical one, the retrieving of synths and the elimination of hostiles. When it underwent a memory wipe, this function should be erased. Yet it "chooses" to become a guard of Rivet City, a combat role. This is an example supporting that a synth cannot escape it's programming, as they are a tool. A person can ignore their baser instincts, they can choose to not give in. A synth, on the other hand, cannot.

Additionally, DiMA and Nick are not applicable examples. Nick's OS is that of two pre-existing Human brainscans, thus making him a person, not a synth. He is sapient.

DiMA, like Nick, is an experiment. He was allowed to freely develop his personality with no base function. Hence, DiMA achieved sapience.

Long story short, synths are more on the line of an intelligent dog, rather than a person.

Finally a good point.

Great Savaya wrote:
They do not share the same worth as a human.

They were CREATED with a PURPOSE.

So? As a Christian I believe humans are created with a purpose. That doesn't make them anything less.

In a secular point of view, how would you feel if scientists cloned human beings and through genetic science figured out how to program them to be soldiers, or servants, or whatever. Is that right or ethical?

Salus Maior wrote:

Gloriana Americana wrote:
Of course that doesn't even scratch the surface of how immoral they are, I mean they make the Legion look like saints.

Ehhh....

I'd rank the Institute a bit higher on the moral meter than the Legion, raiders would be less moral than the Legion, and the Fiends would be the least moral.

I wouldn't. At least most of the Legion's victims are killed, most of the Institute's are test subjects which is arguably even worse. The Legion might not give you a quick, painless death (the opposite is far more likely), but at least you actually die, and human too. The Institute might be more civilized than the Legion, but they're far less moral. At least Caesar can draw the line somewhere even if it is rare for him to do so, I don't think the Institute even does that.

Yeah, while the Institute does have a lot of potential they are pretty damn evil.