So if i make a burger using cows meat, the burger is not an animal, but it's a cow?
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by Great Savaya » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:08 pm
by The Islands of Versilia » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:08 pm
Salus Maior wrote:The Islands of Versilia wrote:Ya know that guy in the Institute who thinks the whole thing should have more attention and research to it?
I like him.
Well, I like Scribe Haylen from the BoS who's not as extreme towards Synths. But one person isn't going to make a difference in any given faction, particularly if the others just brush them off like that Institute guy you're talking about.
by Salus Maior » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:10 pm
The Islands of Versilia wrote:Salus Maior wrote:
Well, I like Scribe Haylen from the BoS who's not as extreme towards Synths. But one person isn't going to make a difference in any given faction, particularly if the others just brush them off like that Institute guy you're talking about.
Aye....
I wish there was more choice in how the sole survivor could shape their faction with their choices.
by Salus Maior » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:10 pm
by Great Savaya » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:11 pm
by Salus Maior » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:13 pm
by Great Savaya » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:14 pm
Salus Maior wrote:Great Savaya wrote:Maybe you got a point there.
However the Synths were designed as servants.
You could say that Black slaves were bred to be servants, no?
Anyway, if that were the case they shouldn't have made them completely indistinguishable from a human being to the point where they can be self-motivated and free-thinking.
by The first Galactic Republic » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:21 pm
by The Islands of Versilia » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:22 pm
Great Savaya wrote:Salus Maior wrote:
You could say that Black slaves were bred to be servants, no?
Anyway, if that were the case they shouldn't have made them completely indistinguishable from a human being to the point where they can be self-motivated and free-thinking.
The first Africans were created as free human beings, and freedom is the universal right for all humans.
However as you said yourself, Synths are not human. The Institute in my opinion is doing the right thing to save humanity.
They do have toilet paper after all!
by Salus Maior » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:24 pm
Great Savaya wrote:Salus Maior wrote:
You could say that Black slaves were bred to be servants, no?
Anyway, if that were the case they shouldn't have made them completely indistinguishable from a human being to the point where they can be self-motivated and free-thinking.
The first Africans were created as free human beings, and freedom is the universal right for all humans.
However as you said yourself, Synths are not human. The Institute in my opinion is doing the right thing to save humanity.
They do have toilet paper after all!
by Gloriana Americana » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:33 pm
by Salus Maior » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:53 pm
Gloriana Americana wrote:
Of course that doesn't even scratch the surface of how immoral they are, I mean they make the Legion look like saints.
by Alekseandrea » Fri Jul 28, 2017 1:42 pm
Anywhere Else But Here wrote:Temporarily ruined forever.
by The Islands of Versilia » Fri Jul 28, 2017 1:46 pm
Alekseandrea wrote:Salus Maior wrote:
Burgers aren't sentient, independent beings.
Well, are synths truly that?
Have you ever heard about the "Chinese room" thought experiment?
[url]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room[/url]
Either synths are conscious beings OR they simulate consious beings.
I believe they simulate them.
Why?
1. They can be reprogrammed for other tasks (Coursers) and their memories can be replaced without much issue (institute mind-wiping, railroad messing around), Curie's memories can be copied to a synth without issue showing us that they ARE, without doubt, robots.
2. Well, there are self-aware AI's in fallout, but those are room-sized. That's several magnitudes larger than what can be put in a synth.
3. The institute didn't start from scratch to build the gen 3 synths. The gen 1 and gen 2 synths came first. If gen 1 and 2's aren't self-aware, why would gen 3's be?
4. The institute, the faction who designed and builds them, considers them to be automata, little different from other robots.
5. There is no reason why synths would NEED to be sentient or self-aware.
by Great Savaya » Fri Jul 28, 2017 1:51 pm
Salus Maior wrote:Great Savaya wrote:The first Africans were created as free human beings, and freedom is the universal right for all humans.
However as you said yourself, Synths are not human. The Institute in my opinion is doing the right thing to save humanity.
They do have toilet paper after all!
So it's fine to enslave non-human sentients? Should we chain up all the ghouls then and make them do our dirty work?
And no, they're not. They're perfectly fine killing off humans on the surface whenever they need to satiate their curiosity.
You know that Father's pet projects caused the Super Mutant infestation in the Commonwealth, right? They brought the FEV over here and then experimented on kidnapped people with it, turning them into Super mutants and then releasing them.
In fact, Swan, the behemoth in Swan's Pond, was their first victim. And the thing is, there was no reason to do the FEV tests, they always failed to do what the Institute was looking for it to do, but they kept kidnapping people and then subjecting them to the FEV for no reason. They only stopped because Virgil sabotaged it and left the Institute.
by Prusslandia » Fri Jul 28, 2017 1:57 pm
by Salus Maior » Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:01 pm
Alekseandrea wrote:
Well, are synths truly that?
Have you ever heard about the "Chinese room" thought experiment?
[url]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room[/url]
Either synths are conscious beings OR they simulate consious beings.
I believe they simulate them.
Why?
1. They can be reprogrammed for other tasks (Coursers) and their memories can be replaced without much issue (institute mind-wiping, railroad messing around), Curie's memories can be copied to a synth without issue showing us that they ARE, without doubt, robots.
2. Well, there are self-aware AI's in fallout, but those are room-sized. That's several magnitudes larger than what can be put in a synth.
3. The institute didn't start from scratch to build the gen 3 synths. The gen 1 and gen 2 synths came first. If gen 1 and 2's aren't self-aware, why would gen 3's be?
4. The institute, the faction who designed and builds them, considers them to be automata, little different from other robots.
5. There is no reason why synths would NEED to be sentient or self-aware.
by Great Savaya » Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:11 pm
Salus Maior wrote:Alekseandrea wrote:
Well, are synths truly that?
Have you ever heard about the "Chinese room" thought experiment?
[url]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room[/url]
Either synths are conscious beings OR they simulate consious beings.
I believe they simulate them.
Why?
1. They can be reprogrammed for other tasks (Coursers) and their memories can be replaced without much issue (institute mind-wiping, railroad messing around), Curie's memories can be copied to a synth without issue showing us that they ARE, without doubt, robots.
2. Well, there are self-aware AI's in fallout, but those are room-sized. That's several magnitudes larger than what can be put in a synth.
3. The institute didn't start from scratch to build the gen 3 synths. The gen 1 and gen 2 synths came first. If gen 1 and 2's aren't self-aware, why would gen 3's be?
4. The institute, the faction who designed and builds them, considers them to be automata, little different from other robots.
5. There is no reason why synths would NEED to be sentient or self-aware.
1. Simulating conscious beings would require that they're always implanted with a personality. Some Synths are, like Nick, but others can develop their own personalities, this is obvious from the mind-wipes. Synths are partially mechanical, that's true and undeniable. However they are largely biological, they're grown with biological components derived from Shaun's DNA. And in fact, cannibals can eat Synths and literally not tell that it's different from a human. This would put them somewhere in-between human clones and cyborgs, not robots.
2. Synths, and basically anything else the Institute makes, blows pre-war tech out of the water. Unless that thing is their laser weapons.
3. Because the Institute made them to be self-aware, for the same reason real life scientists want to make self-aware robots. Because it's a major scientific breakthrough, and because they can. Of course the Institute does this and still claims they're just machines in the same vein as toasters.
4. So? The Institute can be wrong. As it is a lot of the time.
5. You're right, the Institute didn't need to make sentient bio-mechanical beings. But they did because they can. *Insert Maxson saying "science run amok"*
by Sevvania » Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:12 pm
Alekseandrea wrote:Salus Maior wrote:
Burgers aren't sentient, independent beings.
Well, are synths truly that?
Have you ever heard about the "Chinese room" thought experiment?
[url]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room[/url]
Either synths are conscious beings OR they simulate consious beings.
I believe they simulate them.
Why?
1. They can be reprogrammed for other tasks (Coursers) and their memories can be replaced without much issue (institute mind-wiping, railroad messing around), Curie's memories can be copied to a synth without issue showing us that they ARE, without doubt, robots.
2. Well, there are self-aware AI's in fallout, but those are room-sized. That's several magnitudes larger than what can be put in a synth.
3. The institute didn't start from scratch to build the gen 3 synths. The gen 1 and gen 2 synths came first. If gen 1 and 2's aren't self-aware, why would gen 3's be?
4. The institute, the faction who designed and builds them, considers them to be automata, little different from other robots.
5. There is no reason why synths would NEED to be sentient or self-aware.
by Prusslandia » Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:15 pm
by Great Savaya » Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:19 pm
by Great Savaya » Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:19 pm
Prusslandia wrote:I'd easily side with the Institute. Why? Because the people that had my spouse kid and stole my child are long gone. They have no sway over the organization, and furthermore, I am made acting Director. The Institute has the best capacity for good in the Commonwealth, in terms of uplifting the life of the average Wastelander. It merely takes some prodding.
Also, I'll agree that a synth is sentient. It is not, however, sapient. They simulate it, but only when programmed to do so. With true sapience, they'd be able to escape their base programming after a memory wipe. The entire existence of Harkness in 3 disproves this.
It's function was a primarily tactical one, the retrieving of synths and the elimination of hostiles. When it underwent a memory wipe, this function should be erased. Yet it "chooses" to become a guard of Rivet City, a combat role. This is an example supporting that a synth cannot escape it's programming, as they are a tool. A person can ignore their baser instincts, they can choose to not give in. A synth, on the other hand, cannot.
Additionally, DiMA and Nick are not applicable examples. Nick's OS is that of two pre-existing Human brainscans, thus making him a person, not a synth. He is sapient.
DiMA, like Nick, is an experiment. He was allowed to freely develop his personality with no base function. Hence, DiMA achieved sapience.
Long story short, synths are more on the line of an intelligent dog, rather than a person.
by Salus Maior » Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:26 pm
by Gloriana Americana » Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:26 pm
Salus Maior wrote:Gloriana Americana wrote:
Of course that doesn't even scratch the surface of how immoral they are, I mean they make the Legion look like saints.
Ehhh....
I'd rank the Institute a bit higher on the moral meter than the Legion, raiders would be less moral than the Legion, and the Fiends would be the least moral.
by Washington Resistance Army » Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:31 pm
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