NationStates

New Frenco Empire wrote:

Transoxthraxia wrote:I don't consider them so, no. They've altered and thus destroyed their humanity.

I'm sure you'll be lovely once this actually starts appearing in our lifetimes.

With the state of prosthetics so far, it has basically begun.

So, that mod Fallout: The Frontier looks like it's shaping up to be a better Fallout game than 4 at this point.

New Frenco Empire wrote:

Transoxthraxia wrote:I don't consider them so, no. They've altered and thus destroyed their humanity.

I'm sure you'll be lovely once this actually starts appearing in our lifetimes.

If someone has to get a mechanical replacement for a limb if they lost it, or if they have an actual reason to do so, then that can be excused. But creatures that are synthesized with innate metal or robotic parts are not people, and that's that.

Transoxthraxia wrote:

New Frenco Empire wrote:I'm sure you'll be lovely once this actually starts appearing in our lifetimes.

If someone has to get a mechanical replacement for a limb if they lost it, or if they have an actual reason to do so, then that can be excused. But creatures that are synthesized with innate metal or robotic parts are not people, and that's that.

Is there some kind of reasoning behind that, or is it just your own arbitrary decision?

Transoxthraxia wrote:

New Frenco Empire wrote:I'm sure you'll be lovely once this actually starts appearing in our lifetimes.

If someone has to get a mechanical replacement for a limb if they lost it, or if they have an actual reason to do so, then that can be excused. But creatures that are synthesized with innate metal or robotic parts are not people, and that's that.

>be me
>50 years old
>2046, what a time to be alive
>decides to purchase mechanical robot legs
>don't need robot legs, just want them
>after surgery, I can no longer vote, am no longer protected by the U.S. Constitution, and forced into an impoverished hell...all because my peers didn't like synths when they played Fallout 4 as kids

Wisconsin9 wrote:

Transoxthraxia wrote:If someone has to get a mechanical replacement for a limb if they lost it, or if they have an actual reason to do so, then that can be excused. But creatures that are synthesized with innate metal or robotic parts are not people, and that's that.

Is there some kind of reasoning behind that, or is it just your own arbitrary decision?

It's because the Enclave is real and they know what's best, obviously.

Wisconsin9 wrote:

Transoxthraxia wrote:If someone has to get a mechanical replacement for a limb if they lost it, or if they have an actual reason to do so, then that can be excused. But creatures that are synthesized with innate metal or robotic parts are not people, and that's that.

Is there some kind of reasoning behind that, or is it just your own arbitrary decision?

Well, Humans don't have metal shit in their brains that enhance their capabilities; we're just that, Human.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think the Institute should have done it in the first place, which more or less proves the political and practical ineptitude of the entire institution. Tbf Gen.3 Synths should never have been created. Ever. If they had created them, they should have done it once or twice to satisfy their "could we-before-should we" impulses.

But since they do exist in this universe, then it should be made clear that they are manufactured, not born, despite what a few white knights may have you believe. They were created in a lab with Human material. However, they are not 100% Human material, and are not 100% Human, therefore not 100% a person, despite having feelings and emotions.

Are you guys just not comprehending this?

New Frenco Empire wrote:

Transoxthraxia wrote:If someone has to get a mechanical replacement for a limb if they lost it, or if they have an actual reason to do so, then that can be excused. But creatures that are synthesized with innate metal or robotic parts are not people, and that's that.

>be me
>50 years old
>2046, what a time to be alive
>decides to purchase mechanical robot legs
>don't need robot legs, just want them
>after surgery, I can no longer vote, am no longer protected by the U.S. Constitution, and forced into an impoverished hell...all because my peers didn't like synths when they played Fallout 4 as kids

Hey, we're the same age.

Also, yep. That's how it should go. Though I'm not sure where you're getting impoverished hell from.

Finally, don't use meme arrows trying to be edgy and smart, it makes your point a lot less serious unless you use them in an ironic fashion.

Transoxthraxia wrote:

Wisconsin9 wrote:Is there some kind of reasoning behind that, or is it just your own arbitrary decision?

Well, Humans don't have metal shit in their brains that enhance their capabilities; we're just that, Human.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think the Institute should have done it in the first place, which more or less proves the political and practical ineptitude of the entire institution. Tbf Gen.3 Synths should never have been created. Ever. If they had created them, they should have done it once or twice to satisfy their "could we-before-should we" impulses.

But since they do exist in this universe, then it should be made clear that they are manufactured, not born, despite what a few white knights may have you believe. They were created in a lab with Human material. However, they are not 100% Human material, and are not 100% Human, therefore not 100% a person, despite having feelings and emotions.

Are you guys just not comprehending this?

No, we comprehend just fine. It's just that it's gobsmackingly stupid. It's like saying that somebody with a pacemaker or an artificial hip isn't really a person either.

And, for that matter, the insistence that a non-human can't be a person is bafflingly arbitrary.

Transoxthraxia wrote:

Wisconsin9 wrote:Is there some kind of reasoning behind that, or is it just your own arbitrary decision?

Well, Humans don't have metal shit in their brains that enhance their capabilities; we're just that, Human.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think the Institute should have done it in the first place, which more or less proves the political and practical ineptitude of the entire institution. Tbf Gen.3 Synths should never have been created. Ever. If they had created them, they should have done it once or twice to satisfy their "could we-before-should we" impulses.

But since they do exist in this universe, then it should be made clear that they are manufactured, not born, despite what a few white knights may have you believe. They were created in a lab with Human material. However, they are not 100% Human material, and are not 100% Human, therefore not 100% a person, despite having feelings and emotions.

Are you guys just not comprehending this?

I understand, but that doesn't make your point any less unreasonable and dumb,

Transoxthraxia wrote:

New Frenco Empire wrote:>be me
>50 years old
>2046, what a time to be alive
>decides to purchase mechanical robot legs
>don't need robot legs, just want them
>after surgery, I can no longer vote, am no longer protected by the U.S. Constitution, and forced into an impoverished hell...all because my peers didn't like synths when they played Fallout 4 as kids

Hey, we're the same age.

Also, yep. That's how it should go. Though I'm not sure where you're getting impoverished hell from.

Finally, don't use meme arrows trying to be edgy and smart, it makes your point a lot less serious unless you use them in an ironic fashion.

I'm not sure how I'm the edgy one, considering I'm not the one advocating declaring people who might happen to willingly augment themselves in the future unpersons ala 1984.

The issue is that you weren't fucking produced in a factory and programmed in the same way the synth is. You are free thinking, fully capable of making intelligent decisions.

Jesus are you fucking these dense.

Husseinarti wrote:The issue is that you weren't fucking produced in a factory and programmed in the same way the synth is. You are free thinking, fully capable of making intelligent decisions.

Jesus are you fucking these dense.

For the umpteenth time, we aren't even sure that free will actually exists. Find proof that it does, then you have a point.

Wisconsin9 wrote:No, we comprehend just fine. It's just that it's gobsmackingly stupid.

"I disagree with you, so you're stupid."

Ok.

Wisconsin9 wrote:It's like saying that somebody with a pacemaker or an artificial hip isn't really a person either.

No, it's really not. Let me outline this for you for the nth time. Someone with a pacemaker or a hip replacement, or even someone with a mechanical prosthetic that they had received due to necessity (i.e, losing a limb in a war or accident.) remains a person fundamentally. It's when a) someone willingly gives up their Humanity in order to enhance their capabilities beyond Human attainment or b) when their Human capabilities have been artificially created or brought about through the use of machinery or robotics where they lose their status as a "person" in my books.

Wisconsin9 wrote:And, for that matter, the insistence that a non-human can't be a person is bafflingly arbitrary.

Nah.

Husseinarti wrote:The issue is that you weren't fucking produced in a factory and programmed in the same way the synth is.

Jesus are you fucking these dense.

Yep, I'm the dense one...except for the fact that he literally just said that any rights I have should be stripped away if I willingly decide to replace a part of my body with some metal.

To edge shit back on track, I really don't see how synthkind is that different from mankind. They're made with the same stuff as humans are, the same organs, same organic material...just mass-produced. If we're literally judging personhood based on if you were made in a factory or not, I guess the characters of Brave New World just...weren't people. John the Savage was the only person.

Husseinarti wrote:Jesus are you fucking these dense.

The question's already been answered

Transoxthraxia wrote:

Wisconsin9 wrote:No, we comprehend just fine. It's just that it's gobsmackingly stupid.

"I disagree with you, so you're stupid."

Ok.

Wisconsin9 wrote:It's like saying that somebody with a pacemaker or an artificial hip isn't really a person either.

No, it's really not. Let me outline this for you for the nth time. Someone with a pacemaker or a hip replacement, or even someone with a mechanical prosthetic that they had received due to necessity (i.e, losing a limb in a war or accident.) remains a person fundamentally. It's when a) someone willingly gives up their Humanity in order to enhance their capabilities beyond Human attainment or b) when their Human capabilities have been artificially created or brought about through the use of machinery or robotics where they lose their status as a "person" in my books.

Wisconsin9 wrote:And, for that matter, the insistence that a non-human can't be a person is bafflingly arbitrary.

Nah.

So, you're against technological progress and using said progress to advance humanity? I find that to be more unhuman than any amount of augmentation.

Sorry, but humans who are against human nature aren't people in my book.

New Frenco Empire wrote:

Transoxthraxia wrote:
"I disagree with you, so you're stupid."

Ok.



No, it's really not. Let me outline this for you for the nth time. Someone with a pacemaker or a hip replacement, or even someone with a mechanical prosthetic that they had received due to necessity (i.e, losing a limb in a war or accident.) remains a person fundamentally. It's when a) someone willingly gives up their Humanity in order to enhance their capabilities beyond Human attainment or b) when their Human capabilities have been artificially created or brought about through the use of machinery or robotics where they lose their status as a "person" in my books.


Nah.

So, you're against technological progress and using said progress to advance humanity? I find that to be more unhuman than any amount of augmentation.

Sorry, but humans who are against human nature aren't people in my book.

Huh, sorry.

I guess I just support the belief that Humankind is able to advance perfectly fine in our own capabilities without any sort of mental stimulation from artificial sources. But if you're of the belief that Humankind isn't good enough in the first place to be able to advance on our own (like we've been doing since the dawn of time), then I suppose there's no point in arguing a fundamental belief that a) won't be changed and b) doesn't really pertain to the Fallout thread.

Transoxthraxia wrote:

New Frenco Empire wrote:So, you're against technological progress and using said progress to advance humanity? I find that to be more unhuman than any amount of augmentation.

Sorry, but humans who are against human nature aren't people in my book.

Huh, sorry.

I guess I just support the belief that Humankind is able to advance perfectly fine in our own capabilities without any sort of mental stimulation from artificial sources. But if you're of the belief that Humankind isn't good enough in the first place to be unable to advance on our own (like we've been doing since the dawn of time), then I suppose there's no point in arguing a fundamental belief that a) won't be changed

We've also lived without modern medicine since the dawn of time, but as you probably know, we have it and it makes our lives easier, allowing us to progress even farther. I mean, humanity's come all this way without vaccines, and vaccines are often voluntary. Should anyone who (so to speak) augments their immune system be declared unpersons?

If you seriously believe that the human body is important in the grand scope of things, you're wrong and that's that. It's the human mind that's done all this. Fuck the body; if robot parts can keep my brain going for longer than an organic body can, I'm going to get robot parts.

and b) doesn't really pertain to the Fallout thread.

This is part of the basis of Fallout 4's story. Of course it pertains to it.

Transoxthraxia wrote:

Wisconsin9 wrote:No, we comprehend just fine. It's just that it's gobsmackingly stupid.

"I disagree with you, so you're stupid."

Ok.

It's stupid, is what I said. As in the idea, not the person.

Wisconsin9 wrote:It's like saying that somebody with a pacemaker or an artificial hip isn't really a person either.

No, it's really not. Let me outline this for you for the nth time. Someone with a pacemaker or a hip replacement, or even someone with a mechanical prosthetic that they had received due to necessity (i.e, losing a limb in a war or accident.) remains a person fundamentally. It's when a) someone willingly gives up their Humanity in order to enhance their capabilities beyond Human attainment or b) when their Human capabilities have been artificially created or brought about through the use of machinery or robotics where they lose their status as a "person" in my books.

And you haven't really given any reason for that to be the case, in either instance.

Wisconsin9 wrote:And, for that matter, the insistence that a non-human can't be a person is bafflingly arbitrary.

Nah.

By all means, feel free to give an actual reason for that to be the case.

New Frenco Empire wrote:

Transoxthraxia wrote:Huh, sorry.

I guess I just support the belief that Humankind is able to advance perfectly fine in our own capabilities without any sort of mental stimulation from artificial sources. But if you're of the belief that Humankind isn't good enough in the first place to be unable to advance on our own (like we've been doing since the dawn of time), then I suppose there's no point in arguing a fundamental belief that a) won't be changed

We've also lived without modern medicine since the dawn of time, but as you probably know, we have it and it makes our lives easier, allowing us to progress even farther. I mean, humanity's come all this way without vaccines, and vaccines are often voluntary. Should anyone who (so to speak) augments their immune system be declared unpersons?

If you seriously believe that the human body is important in the grand scope of things, you're wrong and that's that. It's the human mind that's done all this. Fuck the body; if robot parts can keep my brain going for longer than an organic body can, I'm going to get robot parts.

and b) doesn't really pertain to the Fallout thread.

This is part of the basis of Fallout 4's story. Of course it pertains to it.

vaccines arent robotics lol how are u not gettin this

Transoxthraxia wrote:

New Frenco Empire wrote:We've also lived without modern medicine since the dawn of time, but as you probably know, we have it and it makes our lives easier, allowing us to progress even farther. I mean, humanity's come all this way without vaccines, and vaccines are often voluntary. Should anyone who (so to speak) augments their immune system be declared unpersons?

If you seriously believe that the human body is important in the grand scope of things, you're wrong and that's that. It's the human mind that's done all this. Fuck the body; if robot parts can keep my brain going for longer than an organic body can, I'm going to get robot parts.

This is part of the basis of Fallout 4's story. Of course it pertains to it.

vaccines arent robotics lol how are u not gettin this

No, but they are artificial improvement of the human body. Or is it specifically just articulating bits of metal that you have a problem with? Because that's really fucking specific.

Wisconsin9 wrote:

Transoxthraxia wrote:vaccines arent robotics lol how are u not gettin this

Or is it specifically just articulating bits of metal that you have a problem with?.

Hey, I think you're finally starting to catch on.

Not just metal bits, but metal bits that modify the way that the brain thinks or operates.

However, that's not the main concern in Fallout. While I don't think Kelogg is a person, I also don't think that that's the main issue of the argument, but you seem intent on ignoring my points about Synths. Bottom line, Synths are not people. They are not born, they are manufactured. They are robots at the core with person sprinkled on top, not the other way around like Kelogg or other various cyborgs.

Transoxthraxia wrote:

New Frenco Empire wrote:We've also lived without modern medicine since the dawn of time, but as you probably know, we have it and it makes our lives easier, allowing us to progress even farther. I mean, humanity's come all this way without vaccines, and vaccines are often voluntary. Should anyone who (so to speak) augments their immune system be declared unpersons?

If you seriously believe that the human body is important in the grand scope of things, you're wrong and that's that. It's the human mind that's done all this. Fuck the body; if robot parts can keep my brain going for longer than an organic body can, I'm going to get robot parts.

This is part of the basis of Fallout 4's story. Of course it pertains to it.

vaccines arent robotics lol how are u not gettin this

What would be so different about them? I can use them both to protect my mind from the harms of the physical world.

Why are you so afraid of technology?

Transoxthraxia wrote:

Wisconsin9 wrote:Or is it specifically just articulating bits of metal that you have a problem with?.

Hey, I think you're finally starting to catch on.

Not just metal bits, but metal bits that modify the way that the brain thinks or operates.

Kellogg, my metaphor using myself, nor even synths possess metal bits that fuck with the brain.

However, that's not the main concern in Fallout. While I don't think Kelogg is a person, I also don't think that that's the main issue of the argument, but you seem intent on ignoring my points about Synths. Bottom line, Synths are not people. They are not born, they are manufactured. They are robots at the core with person sprinkled on top, not the other way around like Kelogg or other various cyborgs.

Synths aren't even made of metal.

What's the difference between "born" and "manufactured", anyway?

New Frenco Empire wrote:

Transoxthraxia wrote:vaccines arent robotics lol how are u not gettin this

Why are you so afraid of technology?

The fuck? I'm not afraid of technology. In fact, I use technology on a daily basis to perform some of the most rudimentary tasks available, including typing essays,looking for jobs, handing in homework, entertaining myself through movies or games, or arguing with people who are wrong over the internet.

This isn't about Neo-Luddism, this is about robots not being people.