The Fallout Thread

[Arengin Union]

(Image)

Danse is bae

Danse is irony.

Still bae tho

[Alekseandrea]

1.Well, the problem here is that human lifes that are USEFUL should be protected. Not all human lifes. Here useful means "useful to the group you are a member of". Why is this necessary? Because you've got raiders, super mutants, feral ghouls and human railroad supporters running around. They endanger human lifes while being themselves human. But they aren't useable if one wants to rebuild society. You can't taze them into unconsciousness and lock them all up. That's impractical. Thus you only protect the lifes of people useful to the goals of your group. You can't copy ideals from a peaceful society in a near-anarchy and expect them to work.

Look at the NCR in nv. People get shot when they steal anything. No matter how small. Yet they clearly have a working society.
They don't value humsn lifes highly.



2.The girl tried to sell the data before she had it.
Anyone would assume they had already found the data.
I doubt they're the first who tried the "We really don't have it. Honest."-excuse.


3.Not exactly. It's more what Preston does with it.
And he builds the whole organisation like the old minutemen.
The SS is just the figurehead who does the dirty work.


4.Yes. It would. If Maxon dies, he'll simply get replaced by the other elders or his chapter. The BoS are essentially raiders. If they want food on the table, they need to maintain the status quo. Perhaps they'll be less or more aggressive, but that's it really. They'll still steal tech, kill undesirables, extort farmers and spout propaganda.


5.That isn't something that could end the institute, it merely might affect the leadership.


6.But the minutemen are especially vulnerable.
Their unclear chain of command, vigilante style of volunteering, decentralised manpower and dependency on the goodwill of settlers for food and funds are glaring weaknesses.


7.I doubt it gets any worse than the current state. Look at a random farmer, if we trust the in-game mechanics, he can provide for himself and 5 others. The farmer to raider ratio alone is more than 1:5. It could easily be 1:10. I don't believe that the situation can be worse. The raiders would need to be half-starving to maintain the ratio. It clearly isn't a sustainable situation. There must have been a massive recruitment of raiders or a whole bunch of slaughtered farmers to achieve the current situation from a sustainable balance. Neither are really positive. So how exactly do you get a worse situation?


8.This is also true for the minutemen and the BoS.


9.Villages, not nation. There is no unifying idea, ideology or anything really.
That wont last long.

10.The institute tried working with the rabble before it failed.
By now, the populace won't even accept their help it if they got it.

I don't blame the institute for not trying the impossible.


11.I meant safe in terms of safe from ghouls, super mutants or raiders. Which in the wasteland is, very, very safe. Stealing a reactor might have ruined some people's quality of life, sure, but they're still save from the aforementioned threats.


12.The old and the new operate on the same principles. The building of new settlements and trade routes doesn't change that. The weaknesses are therefore still the same.


13.The common people in the commonwealth are raiders. It's really surprising how much of those buggers are around. I don't think they like the minutemen.

1. Force being used against people stealing or attacking each other is not the same as destroying entire towns based on the rumor that they have something you want. That's literally no different from being a raider, or the BoS, and that's not conducive to rebuilding civilization.

Not conducive in general, sure. The town was more of an example. So they can say to anyone that doesn't give them what thay want: "University point didn't give us what we wanted. Now there is no university point.".
I agree that subtler methods are better. Like placing synth infiltrators in high-ranking positions across the commonwealth. That's more elegant and effective.
Why bother killing the uppity wastelanders when you can hijack their leadership?

2. So why didn't the Institute try to buy it from her? Or attempt any kind of diplomatic action? It's not as if they don't have resources. It's because the Institute values nothing and no one on the surface, regardless of whether they're a raider or a farmer just trying to get by. They want to terrorize the surface so they don't get in the way of them playing god and unleashing whatever awful thing they want on the surface.

Well, they can't stop the institute playing god in any case.
And, frankly, they have little to no value when looked at from the institutes point of view.
They don't need them.
I don't think they have feelings other than apathy towards the surface.

In fact, dialogue from the Courser companion OUTRIGHT STATES that the Institute wants the entirety of the surface dwellers to die out.

Does he?
He's your usual likeable killer android who thinks of wastelanders as target practice, sure.
But the institute actually recruits wastelanders.
Why would they want they to destroy their source of new recruits?
It's not like they can produce enough (real) humans to break even.

3. And again, that's wrong. Preston points you in the direction of settlements, but the Minutemen take orders from the SS.

Not always. There is a quest where the institute attempts to recruit a scientist. The scientist called for the minutemen. Those minutemen WILL ignore your orders to stand down if you fail a charisma check. This tells us that the SS authority is virtually non-existent. If the SS had any he could simply pull rank.

If you decide to destroy all the factions, the Minutemen follow your leadership, if you choose to side with any one faction, including the Institute, the Minutemen follow your order.

Not ALL minutemen, only a small number of them will actually engage with you. They could be volunteers. It doesn't tell you much over their general opinions.

It's the SS that builds settlements, establishes the trade routes, Preston does nothing with that. Outside of giving you fetch quests (which is gameplay), Preston really doesn't contribute anything to the structure of the Minutemen.

Preston does contribute. He's the guy who everyone goes to with their problems, which are delegated to you. It's gameplay, but it still happens.
The settlements and trade routes are also gameplay. If those count, so does the SS doing Preston's dirty work.
I doubt that people wait to build shelter and plant food unless some guy orders them to do it. The same thing could be said for trading.

4. That depends entirely on who is picked to lead the BoS. The BoS has fractured before due to leadership, under Elder Lyons.

They reunited before fo4 and became something closer to the pre-Lyons BoS, thus showing how resilient the BoS's system is.

5. That depends entirely on how destructive the rebellion is, and how large it is.

They were asking for different leadership and had control of the food supply.

3 things can happen.

• They succeed.
• The other guys put them in their place.
• They give up after half-starving the institute.

They don't want the institute to be destroyed. So I doubt that they would actually starve the institute.

6. I'm collecting taxes from settlement stores just fine. And again, those problems can be fixed because all the leaders of the Minutemen recognize that those were problems in the Old Minutemen.

And what happens if a bunch of traders decide they don't want to give up their hard-earned cash?

7. Again, that's game limitation. And if you're going to ignore in-game dialogue stating the history of the Commonwealth prior to you waking up, that's your problem.

If you're going to ignore that sources can be unreliable, sure.
We're talking about dirt farmers here, not socio-political commentators.
He might think it has improved because, for some reason, raiders stopped attacking him.

8. The SS is never in a position to lead the BoS anyway so I'm not sure why you're mentioning them. And the Minutemen have no issue with centralization or reforms to themselves, as Preston himself states they're in it for restoring civilization in the Commonwealth. And they'll follow the SS to that end.

Some of the minitemen will literally ignore direct orders if you're "not convincing enough".
This seems more like barely controlled anarchy with a banner than an organisation bringing peace and order.

9. Shady Sands was also a village at one point. And there is a unifying idea, the idea that people want improved standards of living, to be better protected from raiders and other dangerous factions, to rebuild civilization. People rally around the Minutemen and the aforementioned ideals they espouse, this is blatantly clear in the game itself as you play a Minutemen playthrough.

And note, it's possible in game to have nearly 50 settlers in each of your settlements given you max out charisma to the highest it can get. That's not much less than Diamond city. And you could probably get more settlers if the game didn't limit it by your charisma (and there are mods on the PC which do extend it). Sure, it's not even close to a modern city, but by Fallout standards that's substantial.

The NCR rose from an alliance of existing city-states. The minutemen are attempting to build the alliance first, the states second. The minutemen ares simply attempting to protect too much land with too little people. It's a recipe for disaster. It's a reason why the old ones failed and the new ones will fail.

10. And by "it failed" you mean the Institute had everyone in the CPG murdered. Likely because, again, a unified surface, a civilized surface, is against their interests.

The point is that the institute tried BEFORE killing them all.

11. Again, only when it's in the BoS's interests. Sure, they go and purge caves and lairs, but when settlements are actually attacked they don't go out to help them. And it's very likely that Rivet city was completely destroyed by this act by the Brotherhood, after all, do you think that Rivet city just let them have it?

The commonwealth isn't annexed.
And for rivet city, well, I believe that most wastelanders would agree that fighting against a bunch of angry people in power armour is called suicide.

12. Yes, it does absolutely change that. You're saying that the Minutemen have no structure, but the Minutemen storyline is literally building structure and developing civilization. The settlement stores you build and trade routes you make, you, the General, get a cut of, and it can get very lucrative depending on how much you put into it. You're essentially collecting taxes.

The Minutemen become a structured organization as you play through their campaign and invest time into building structure. Sure, it's optional and it doesn't hold your hand, but it can be done.

This quote sums it up pretty well:

"Whether it be better to be loved than feared or feared than loved? It may be answered that one should wish to be both, but, because it is difficult to unite them in one person, is much safer to be feared than loved, when, of the two, either must be dispensed with. ...
Nevertheless a prince ought to inspire fear in such a way that, if he does not win love, he avoids hatred; because he can endure very well being feared whilst he is not hated."

The minutemen rely on being loved by the populace. If they lose their goodwill, they'll collapse.
The problem is that people are fickle, one day you're a hero, the other day the asshole who collect taxes.
And the minutemen won't use fear to keep the population in line, because of their ideals.
So they will be slaves to their PR. Which means they can't do much. People are easily angered.

Fear is simply more reliable to get people to obey than love.

13. I imagine they don't. But you understand what I was meaning.

Well, since when do people want what's good for them?
It's easy to be for thruth, justice, peace and the American way if somebody else is doing the fighting.

[Gloriana Americana]

And for rivet city, well, I believe that most wastelanders would agree that fighting against a bunch of angry people in power armour is called suicide.

4 out of 5 Couriers would disagree with that.

Then again, the Courier is an exceptional individual so maybe they don't count...

Fear is simply more reliable to get people to obey than love.

This is some Orwellian thought right here.

[Neo Balka]

NCR breeds nothing but cowards and failures.

Legion is full of LARPers with all the actual rape and pillaging.

I'd rather be the asshole in power armor vaporizing my enemies with laser guns then some degenerate rad sucking rando.

so uh....ad victoriam.

[Gloriana Americana]

NCR breeds nothing but cowards and failures.

Bullshit. NCR soldiers are some of the bravest souls there are. They're in the worst possible position for an army to be in and they still get up out of bed everyday to go on patrol. You only ever encounter 2 deserters in the entire game, one of which is a group of idiots who turned to raiding after they gambled their money away and the other didn't desert until his incompetent commanders got his entire squad killed. There should be more deserters than there are, especially against an enemy like the Legion, but Christ even Private Stone doesn't desert. Don't even get me started on the Rangers.

Furthermore, the only "failures" are Oliver and Kimball. Everyone else in the NCR is far more competent and effective. Their officers are forced to work with what they have, which is the result of Oliver's incompetence and pride. Every NCR and Ranger soldier in New Vegas seems to be highly motivated to serve or otherwise help people, sometimes both. Every commanding officer except Oliver seems to show general competence when it comes to their job. Even Moore, has straightforward as she is, is still more rational than Oliver. Oliver & Kimball are the source of 90% of the NCR's failures.

This statement simply reeks of ignorance.

[Washington Resistance Army]

NCR breeds nothing but cowards and failures.

Legion is full of LARPers with all the actual rape and pillaging.

I'd rather be the asshole in power armor vaporizing my enemies with laser guns then some degenerate rad sucking rando.

so uh....ad victoriam.

Kinda hard to be vaporizing your enemies when you hide in a hole all day.

[Neo Balka]

NCR breeds nothing but cowards and failures.

Legion is full of LARPers with all the actual rape and pillaging.

I'd rather be the asshole in power armor vaporizing my enemies with laser guns then some degenerate rad sucking rando.

so uh....ad victoriam.

Kinda hard to be vaporizing your enemies when you hide in a hole all day.

Only in the deluded minds of the West coast Brotherhood.

[Neo Balka]

NCR breeds nothing but cowards and failures.

Bullshit. NCR soldiers are some of the bravest souls there are. They're in the worst possible position for an army to be in and they still get up out of bed everyday to go on patrol. You only ever encounter 2 deserters in the entire game, one of which is a group of idiots who turned to raiding after they gambled their money away and the other didn't desert until his incompetent commanders got his entire squad killed. There should be more deserters than there are, especially against an enemy like the Legion, but Christ even Private Stone doesn't desert. Don't even get me started on the Rangers.

Furthermore, the only "failures" are Oliver and Kimball. Everyone else in the NCR is far more competent and effective. Their officers are forced to work with what they have, which is the result of Oliver's incompetence and pride. Every NCR and Ranger soldier in New Vegas seems to be highly motivated to serve or otherwise help people, sometimes both. Every commanding officer except Oliver seems to show general competence when it comes to their job. Even Moore, has straightforward as she is, is still more rational than Oliver. Oliver & Kimball are the source of 90% of the NCR's failures.

This statement simply reeks of ignorance.

COWARDS. AND. FAILURES.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Bullshit. NCR soldiers are some of the bravest souls there are. They're in the worst possible position for an army to be in and they still get up out of bed everyday to go on patrol. You only ever encounter 2 deserters in the entire game, one of which is a group of idiots who turned to raiding after they gambled their money away and the other didn't desert until his incompetent commanders got his entire squad killed. There should be more deserters than there are, especially against an enemy like the Legion, but Christ even Private Stone doesn't desert. Don't even get me started on the Rangers.

Furthermore, the only "failures" are Oliver and Kimball. Everyone else in the NCR is far more competent and effective. Their officers are forced to work with what they have, which is the result of Oliver's incompetence and pride. Every NCR and Ranger soldier in New Vegas seems to be highly motivated to serve or otherwise help people, sometimes both. Every commanding officer except Oliver seems to show general competence when it comes to their job. Even Moore, has straightforward as she is, is still more rational than Oliver. Oliver & Kimball are the source of 90% of the NCR's failures.

This statement simply reeks of ignorance.

COWARDS. AND. FAILURES.

PROFLIGATES. AND. DEGENERATES seems more appropriate imo.

[Neo Balka]

COWARDS. AND. FAILURES.

PROFLIGATES. AND. DEGENERATES seems more appropriate imo.

The only reason why i barely tolerate the legion is for the rough roman memes.

[Gloriana Americana]

Bullshit. NCR soldiers are some of the bravest souls there are. They're in the worst possible position for an army to be in and they still get up out of bed everyday to go on patrol. You only ever encounter 2 deserters in the entire game, one of which is a group of idiots who turned to raiding after they gambled their money away and the other didn't desert until his incompetent commanders got his entire squad killed. There should be more deserters than there are, especially against an enemy like the Legion, but Christ even Private Stone doesn't desert. Don't even get me started on the Rangers.

Furthermore, the only "failures" are Oliver and Kimball. Everyone else in the NCR is far more competent and effective. Their officers are forced to work with what they have, which is the result of Oliver's incompetence and pride. Every NCR and Ranger soldier in New Vegas seems to be highly motivated to serve or otherwise help people, sometimes both. Every commanding officer except Oliver seems to show general competence when it comes to their job. Even Moore, has straightforward as she is, is still more rational than Oliver. Oliver & Kimball are the source of 90% of the NCR's failures.

This statement simply reeks of ignorance.

COWARDS. AND. FAILURES.

THAT'S. NOT. AN. ARGUMENT.

And failures? Hahaha? Are you kidding mean? The BoS got their asses kicked by the NCR, if the Legion wins they get their asses kicked by them, if House wins they're destroyed by 1 guy, and they absolutely FAIL at their mission. Their entire point is to keep advanced weapons out of the hands of everyone who isn't them, and yet they fucking fail at this time and time again because they suck and everybody hates them. They're a joke. The BoS has been around since the immediate aftermath of the Great War and they have utterly failed to prevent people from wielding advanced technology. These dudes in power armor with lasers and plasma weapons lost to guys wearing cloth and wielding Pre-War guns that shoot slugs.

That failure reflects the entire Brotherhood, not just one chapter, because it proves the entire Brotherhood is utterly flawed garbage. The BoS is doomed to fail just like the Legion because they're too stupid to think progressively.

[Neo Balka]

COWARDS. AND. FAILURES.

THAT'S. NOT. AN. ARGUMENT.

And failures? Hahaha? Are you kidding mean? The BoS got their asses kicked by the NCR, if the Legion wins they get their asses kicked by them, if House wins they're destroyed by 1 guy, and they absolutely FAIL at their mission. Their entire point is to keep advanced weapons out of the hands of everyone who isn't them, and yet they fucking fail at this time and time again because they suck and everybody hates them. They're a joke. The BoS has been around since the immediate aftermath of the Great War and they have utterly failed to prevent people from wielding advanced technology. These dudes in power armor with lasers and plasma weapons lost to guys wearing cloth and wielding Pre-War guns that shoot slugs.

That failure reflects the entire Brotherhood, not just one chapter, because it proves the entire Brotherhood is utterly flawed garbage. The BoS is doomed to fail just like the Legion because they're too stupid to think progressively.

which is why we have a Giant fucking airship and you have over stretched supply lines with fucking cattle trains.

[Gloriana Americana]

THAT'S. NOT. AN. ARGUMENT.

And failures? Hahaha? Are you kidding mean? The BoS got their asses kicked by the NCR, if the Legion wins they get their asses kicked by them, if House wins they're destroyed by 1 guy, and they absolutely FAIL at their mission. Their entire point is to keep advanced weapons out of the hands of everyone who isn't them, and yet they fucking fail at this time and time again because they suck and everybody hates them. They're a joke. The BoS has been around since the immediate aftermath of the Great War and they have utterly failed to prevent people from wielding advanced technology. These dudes in power armor with lasers and plasma weapons lost to guys wearing cloth and wielding Pre-War guns that shoot slugs.

That failure reflects the entire Brotherhood, not just one chapter, because it proves the entire Brotherhood is utterly flawed garbage. The BoS is doomed to fail just like the Legion because they're too stupid to think progressively.

which is why we have a Giant fucking airship and you have over stretched supply lines with fucking cattle trains.

A giant fucking airship that can be destroyed by 1 dude who was in a freezer for 200 years. Get real, man.

Plus, the NCR has Vertibirds too, you know. So I imagine they have an official Air Force branch.

[Ifreann]

THAT'S. NOT. AN. ARGUMENT.

And failures? Hahaha? Are you kidding mean? The BoS got their asses kicked by the NCR, if the Legion wins they get their asses kicked by them, if House wins they're destroyed by 1 guy, and they absolutely FAIL at their mission. Their entire point is to keep advanced weapons out of the hands of everyone who isn't them, and yet they fucking fail at this time and time again because they suck and everybody hates them. They're a joke. The BoS has been around since the immediate aftermath of the Great War and they have utterly failed to prevent people from wielding advanced technology. These dudes in power armor with lasers and plasma weapons lost to guys wearing cloth and wielding Pre-War guns that shoot slugs.

That failure reflects the entire Brotherhood, not just one chapter, because it proves the entire Brotherhood is utterly flawed garbage. The BoS is doomed to fail just like the Legion because they're too stupid to think progressively.

which is why we have a Giant fucking airship and you have over stretched supply lines with fucking cattle trains.

An airship that probably can't withstand small arms fire, if the Brotherhood's vertibirds are anything to judge by.

[Gloriana Americana]

which is why we have a Giant fucking airship and you have over stretched supply lines with fucking cattle trains.

An airship that probably can't withstand small arms fire, if the Brotherhood's vertibirds are anything to judge by.

All you need is a rocket launcher a few well-placed shots and the thing is going down in flames. An entire Air Force, which the NCR most likely has, could knock it out of the sky without much effort.

[Neo Balka]

which is why we have a Giant fucking airship and you have over stretched supply lines with fucking cattle trains.

An airship that probably can't withstand small arms fire, if the Brotherhood's vertibirds are anything to judge by.

Fucking locals cant do nothing right.

[Pasong Tirad]

The Minutemen aren't a professional army, so I doubt anybody would be able to rely on their help if the SS or Preston were to disappear. It's what you get when you don't have an effective system for the transfer of power. The settlements on their own will either be fine or they won't be fine - but the Minutemen, in the long run, are going to be fucked if the SS doesn't figure out how to organize the Minutemen for the long-term. Doing settlements favors and getting their support are such short-term goals.

This is of course assuming the SS/Preston/the settlements won't try to once again get the settlements to band together like they originally wanted to before the Institute decided to fuck shit up the Commonwealth wasn't ready.

[Washington Resistance Army]

An airship that probably can't withstand small arms fire, if the Brotherhood's vertibirds are anything to judge by.

All you need is a rocket launcher a few well-placed shots and the thing is going down in flames. An entire Air Force, which the NCR most likely has, could knock it out of the sky without much effort.

Doesn't the NCR only have a very small handful of Vertibirds that they looted from the Enclave?

[Gloriana Americana]

Another thing: The NCR has power armor too. Admittedly most of it is stripped of joints and servos to point it's just heavy armor (which is still stronger than normal heavy armors), but the existence of Colonel Royez and his Scorched Sierra power armor prove that some NCR members not only have power armor, but the training to go with it as well.

[Gloriana Americana]

All you need is a rocket launcher a few well-placed shots and the thing is going down in flames. An entire Air Force, which the NCR most likely has, could knock it out of the sky without much effort.

Doesn't the NCR only have a very small handful of Vertibirds that they looted from the Enclave?

Maybe, but even still they probably have enough to be on-par with the East Coast Brotherhood's fleet.

[Pasong Tirad]

Another thing: The NCR has power armor too. Admittedly most of it is stripped of joints and servos to point it's just heavy armor (which is still stronger than normal heavy armors), but the existence of Colonel Royez and his Scorched Sierra power armor prove that some NCR members not only have power armor, but the training to go with it as well.

"The NCR has power armor too" isn't the same as "The NCR's whole fucking army is composed of men and women in power armor."

[Ifreann]

Another thing: The NCR has power armor too. Admittedly most of it is stripped of joints and servos to point it's just heavy armor (which is still stronger than normal heavy armors), but the existence of Colonel Royez and his Scorched Sierra power armor prove that some NCR members not only have power armor, but the training to go with it as well.

And that's advanced west coast power armour, which needs special training but doesn't ever run out of power. Not like the power armour for dummies that's just left lying around the Commonwealth and runs on batteries that no one's making any more.

[Pasong Tirad]

Another thing: The NCR has power armor too. Admittedly most of it is stripped of joints and servos to point it's just heavy armor (which is still stronger than normal heavy armors), but the existence of Colonel Royez and his Scorched Sierra power armor prove that some NCR members not only have power armor, but the training to go with it as well.

And that's advanced west coast power armour, which needs special training but doesn't ever run out of power. Not like the power armour for dummies that's just left lying around the Commonwealth and runs on batteries that no one's making any more.

I don't know man plenty of shops and traders in the Commonwealth never seem to run out of power armor and power armor frames. They must have a factory hidden away somewhere.

[Ifreann]

And that's advanced west coast power armour, which needs special training but doesn't ever run out of power. Not like the power armour for dummies that's just left lying around the Commonwealth and runs on batteries that no one's making any more.

I don't know man plenty of shops and traders in the Commonwealth never seem to run out of power armor and power armor frames. They must have a factory hidden away somewhere.

Or they found the landfill where the Ye Olde US Militarye dumped the inferior power armour they didn't need any more.

[Pasong Tirad]

I don't know man plenty of shops and traders in the Commonwealth never seem to run out of power armor and power armor frames. They must have a factory hidden away somewhere.

Or they found the landfill where the Ye Olde US Militarye dumped the inferior power armour they didn't need any more.

Damn raiders.