BattleBots Thread

[Pencil Sharpeners 2]

Here are my thoughts:
- Shatter Vs Ghost Raptor went pretty much exactly how I expected, which is probably the first time that's happened. The Raptor team achieved success in the past with durable lifters (not dissimilar to Claw Viper tbh), so I'm surprised that they stuck with the spinner that has literally never worked.
- Tracer guy: "My robot is invulnerable". Also Tracer guy: builds a robot that can't self right. Ribbot looks pretty nimble this year, could be a decent bet for the bracket now that we have top 32.
- Black Dragon lost to Lockjaw last year because they chose the wrong front setup. Once again, they chose pretty much the worst front wedge to fight Kraken. They got very lucky but tactics will cost them against better machines.
- Normally I'd be unhappy to see my favourite robot lose, but the new Mammoth is so cool I really don't care. I can see it struggling still against low robots that it can't get underneath, but it will always be entertaining at least. I'm also pretty glad they showed the damage that HUGE caused in the pits, because you couldn't see any of that in the fight.
- Hijinx joins the list of robots with first season gremlins. Claw Viper is kinda like Gruff from last year, a solid bot which relies on its opponents breaking down.
- Probably an unpopular opinion, but that Perfect Phoenix kid is pretty annoying. Maybe I just don't like kids... That's all I have to say because the fight wasn't a fight.
- I'm still skeptical of Hydra. Witch Doctor performed very poorly in this fight, and Hydra honestly seemed to be barely mobile for the last two minutes. It wouldn't surprise me if neither of these robots made top 8 this year.

[Kohr]

Here are my thoughts:
- Shatter Vs Ghost Raptor went pretty much exactly how I expected, which is probably the first time that's happened. The Raptor team achieved success in the past with durable lifters (not dissimilar to Claw Viper tbh), so I'm surprised that they stuck with the spinner that has literally never worked.
- Tracer guy: "My robot is invulnerable". Also Tracer guy: builds a robot that can't self right. Ribbot looks pretty nimble this year, could be a decent bet for the bracket now that we have top 32.
- Black Dragon lost to Lockjaw last year because they chose the wrong front setup. Once again, they chose pretty much the worst front wedge to fight Kraken. They got very lucky but tactics will cost them against better machines.
- Normally I'd be unhappy to see my favourite robot lose, but the new Mammoth is so cool I really don't care. I can see it struggling still against low robots that it can't get underneath, but it will always be entertaining at least. I'm also pretty glad they showed the damage that HUGE caused in the pits, because you couldn't see any of that in the fight.
- Hijinx joins the list of robots with first season gremlins. Claw Viper is kinda like Gruff from last year, a solid bot which relies on its opponents breaking down.
- Probably an unpopular opinion, but that Perfect Phoenix kid is pretty annoying. Maybe I just don't like kids... That's all I have to say because the fight wasn't a fight.
- I'm still skeptical of Hydra. Witch Doctor performed very poorly in this fight, and Hydra honestly seemed to be barely mobile for the last two minutes. It wouldn't surprise me if neither of these robots made top 8 this year.

I'm not sure why Hydra didn't fire his flipper when he had Witch Doctor cornered. Seems like if he had made a more concerted effort to get her out of the arena, he could have ended the fight sooner. I think your concerns about Hydra's durability are well founded and it's why he should be focused on the quick KO.

[Ameriganastan]

Yeah, fuck off, Bitch Doctor. Go cry in that 2 foot hut you call a home.

Yeah, and that sucks. I'm really hoping Tombstone can find some way to adapt, seeing as he's my favorite bot.

You hate Witch Doctor and your favorite is Tombstone?

I like this guy.

[Atheris]

Yeah, fuck off, Bitch Doctor. Go cry in that 2 foot hut you call a home.

Yeah, and that sucks. I'm really hoping Tombstone can find some way to adapt, seeing as he's my favorite bot.

You hate Witch Doctor and your favorite is Tombstone?

I like this guy.

Heeeey! Brothers in arms! Tombstone or rust!

[Pencil Sharpeners 2]

So here's what Extinguisher said about why they were killed in one hit:

Ok so wtf just happened?!?! We just hit the wall and died!!!!! Well thats exactly what we were thinking when it happened! But once we got back to the pits we were able to direct and repair the issue! On our drive system we were using the @trampaboards vesc 75/300esc because of the massive current loads that we pull. Well apparently with our batch of escs that we ordered there was a design flaw that allowed for the escs to internally short with almost 0 provocation (a lot of teams found this out after our fight!). When we hit the wall the escs both shorted in that flawed area and killed our drive costing us the fight. Now pheonix did hit our wedge after the drive died but the only damage that that impact left on our wedge was some scratched paint! Once we figured out that the issue was with the vescs we changed our drive setup slightly to run in a mode called sensorless. This would bypass the issue in the boards but would ultimately mean that we are sacrificing some control over the robot for reliability (which we shouldn't have needed to do but with the flaws in the boards we had to). Once we made these changes we put the robot in the test box and went haywire smashing the robot onto the walls repeatedly to ensure that the issue was effectively fixed which it was! So be ready because for our next fight were coming back stronger

TL;DR: One of their bought-in components was faulty and failed.

It's a shame to see this happen again, as it did with Gigabyte and Bronco in previous seasons, but at least they have the ability to put a different component in for future fights.

[Kohr]

So here's what Extinguisher said about why they were killed in one hit:

Ok so wtf just happened?!?! We just hit the wall and died!!!!! Well thats exactly what we were thinking when it happened! But once we got back to the pits we were able to direct and repair the issue! On our drive system we were using the @trampaboards vesc 75/300esc because of the massive current loads that we pull. Well apparently with our batch of escs that we ordered there was a design flaw that allowed for the escs to internally short with almost 0 provocation (a lot of teams found this out after our fight!). When we hit the wall the escs both shorted in that flawed area and killed our drive costing us the fight. Now pheonix did hit our wedge after the drive died but the only damage that that impact left on our wedge was some scratched paint! Once we figured out that the issue was with the vescs we changed our drive setup slightly to run in a mode called sensorless. This would bypass the issue in the boards but would ultimately mean that we are sacrificing some control over the robot for reliability (which we shouldn't have needed to do but with the flaws in the boards we had to). Once we made these changes we put the robot in the test box and went haywire smashing the robot onto the walls repeatedly to ensure that the issue was effectively fixed which it was! So be ready because for our next fight were coming back stronger

TL;DR: One of their bought-in components was faulty and failed.

It's a shame to see this happen again, as it did with Gigabyte and Bronco in previous seasons, but at least they have the ability to put a different component in for future fights.

Perhaps that will make them slightly less bad. Time will tell.

[Pencil Sharpeners 2]

My talking points for this episode:

- Can Gigabyte succeed against a vert? Shell spinners are usually just fodder for a decent vert, so I think Gigabyte will have its work cut out if it wants to last longer than a minute against Copperhead.
- What will Jackpot do? It's a new robot which kinda looks like Bite Force on steroids, but first year gremlins are always an issue, particularly for bots with powerful weapons. It looks like they can run upside down, and they'll probably need to against a SubZero which has been completely rebuilt and looked much more powerful in testing.
- Is the new Beta just as powerful as before? They've switched from chain driven to pneumatic, but they might have a tough time against RotatoR, which is usually pretty tough.
- Can Tantrum replicate its form in China? After been pretty bad last year, an improved Tantrum gave a much better showing at an event in China last year, but it remains to be seen whether that form can translate over in Battlebots. I don't think they'll be just a pushover for Valkyrie though.
- What has India got to offer? Atom94 is the first robot from India (/Canada), but I saw videos of Big Dill's predecessor at a live event and it looked very impressive, dominating Hypershock. I think Big Dill could be a dark horse for a deep run in this year's tournament.
- Speaking of Hypershock, they're in the main event with a much sleeker looking gruff. Hypershock's wedge has trouble getting under forks and wedgelets, so unless they've got another front end I don't know about, I actually think this should be Gruff's fight.

[Kohr]

(Image)

My talking points for this episode:

- Can Gigabyte succeed against a vert? Shell spinners are usually just fodder for a decent vert, so I think Gigabyte will have its work cut out if it wants to last longer than a minute against Copperhead.
- What will Jackpot do? It's a new robot which kinda looks like Bite Force on steroids, but first year gremlins are always an issue, particularly for bots with powerful weapons. It looks like they can run upside down, and they'll probably need to against a SubZero which has been completely rebuilt and looked much more powerful in testing.
- Is the new Beta just as powerful as before? They've switched from chain driven to pneumatic, but they might have a tough time against RotatoR, which is usually pretty tough.
- Can Tantrum replicate its form in China? After been pretty bad last year, an improved Tantrum gave a much better showing at an event in China last year, but it remains to be seen whether that form can translate over in Battlebots. I don't think they'll be just a pushover for Valkyrie though.
- What has India got to offer? Atom94 is the first robot from India (/Canada), but I saw videos of Big Dill's predecessor at a live event and it looked very impressive, dominating Hypershock. I think Big Dill could be a dark horse for a deep run in this year's tournament.
- Speaking of Hypershock, they're in the main event with a much sleeker looking gruff. Hypershock's wedge has trouble getting under forks and wedgelets, so unless they've got another front end I don't know about, I actually think this should be Gruff's fight.

Did the Tantrum puncher actually do some good punching in China?

[Pencil Sharpeners 2]

Did the Tantrum puncher actually do some good punching in China?

Yep, here's a clip from the show of Tantrum Vs Red Devil (the way they edit it is awful, I know): https://youtu.be/SZqq9wW4uh8?t=1973

Tantrum also fought a couple of fights before this in the same episode, but it won them in a single hit without having to really do anything.

[Kohr]

My thoughts:

-I don't really like Copperhead or Uppercut, but man did those two lay some excellent hits.
-The Jackpot/Subzero fight was terrible. That's got to be one of those fights where even if you won, like Jackpot did, you feel disappointed.
-They should have introduced that cliche jar a long time ago.


Beta 100% won that fight against Rotator. There was barely a moment in the fight when Rotator was dictating the pace of the match, and here's where I think Victor Soto erred in his assessment of the damage category of the judges' scorecard. Yeah, John Reid didn't do any damage to Rotator, so theoretically you could give all five damage points to Rotator, but that's pretty disingenuous considering how little a factor damage played in the fight. What I would do, and what judges Jason and Lisa almost certainly did, was weight damage less than control and aggression by splitting the points 3/2 in favor of Rotator. Beta didn't do 2 points worth of damage, per say, but they only deserved to lose the category by the thinnest of margins because of the irrelevance of damage. It reminds me a lot of how Blacksmith took Rotator out in the same way last year. The hammer was incapacitated, but Rotator has to do more to break through those tanky control bots.

(And if there are things in the rulebook that contradict me about how those categories should be scored, I think the rulebook is flawed.)

^Okay, I wrote that paragraph before moving on and watching the debate in the pits. I get that his frustration is more that Beta didn't use the hammer. I guess that's probably a fundamental point where he and I disagree, but I will say that it wasn't like Beta went in there with the intention to not use their hammer, which in my opinion means he isn't fundamentally subverting the active weapon rule. They were just waiting for an advantageous moment that never came. Doesn't mean they should lose the fight, which they dominated, because of it. And of course I would have preferred to see the hammer fire, and I thought there were some points where it could have. That hammer is awesome!

Also, not sure if anyone else noticed, but since I meticulously pay attention to how the non-spinners do against spinners, here's an observation: If there's a split decision, Derek will always be judging in favor of the non-spinner (probably because he built notorious control bot Complete Control), Jason will rule in favor of the spinner, and Lisa will be the swing vote. So if you're being observant, sometimes you can tell who won a split decision before the winner is announced based on how Faruq says Lisa scored it. That's how, last week, I knew early that Hydra won.

Oh, and last thing, I was overjoyed to see Will Bales lose after that rant of his that I completely disagreed with.

[Washington Resistance Army]

I see no way in which Beta won that fight tbh. The only real damage done was by Rotator and their aggression was perfectly split to me because they just kept charging at each other the entire match. The only category I'd say Beta did better than Rotator was control, and that's not enough to warrant a win.

[Pencil Sharpeners 2]

Busy day today before a blessed two weeks off work, so here are my thoughts a bit later than usual:

- Copperhead and Gigabyte both need major improvements if they want a deep run. Last year, Gigabyte seemed to have fixed the problems of their shell coming off and their self-righter breaking. Apparently they've built the problems back into this one. Copperhead looked powerful, but let's not ignore the fact that it took them almost a minute to drive three feet forward into a robot which was stuck in the corner. Against any other robot, they won't be able to get away with such poor drive.
- Jackpot, as I predicted, had the typical first year (or first fight) gremlins, but still seemed somewhat competent. SubZero... disappointing. Looks like another year at the bottom for them.
- Uppercut looks seriously powerful this year. I do worry, however, about their narrow strike zone combined with the gyroscopic effects of their weapon. A decent driver could get around the side. Gemini continues to prove that multi-bots are ineffective.
- I'll address RotatoR and Beta's decision at the end. There isn't really a whole lot to say about the robots - RotatoR is still underpowered and John Reid is still committed to the WAIT FOR A GOOD HIT Robot Wars meme from 2016.
- Valkyrie continues to show that undercutters struggle against strong wedges, and Tantrum, bizarrely, have changed their design from one which worked in China to one which doesn't work at all. And also breaks down.
- Big Dill, as I predicted, with an easy win. They didn't look as strong or controlling as I expected, but it is their first fight in Battlebots.
- I feel pretty smug that I backed the underdog and they came out on top. Hypershock still inconsistent, but then again, we have too many consistently good verts so at least they make it interesting.

OK, so regarding that judge's decision, I think it's useful to zoom out and remember that robot combat has no 'objective' judging criteria no matter how much we try to codify that. It all depends on your philosophy. Is it just who can deliver the most damage, regardless of what happens in the fight? Is it who is dominating the fight and actually attacking their opponent? The first philosophy favours spinners, because they can just spin up and wait for someone to touch them. The second philosophy favours lifters, wedges, and grabbers, who can take control of a robot and dictate the fight.

Personally, I'd say I'm somewhere in the middle, and I'd actually have been OK with whatever way the decision went in this case. Beta didn't use their weapon, but RotatoR didn't really aggressively use their weapon either, it just happened to be spinning as Beta was pushing them around, and eventually it caught the hammerhead. I can see either argument, but I don't see why people are getting mad.

Here are two previous examples: Skorpios Vs IceWave, and Blacksmith Vs RotatoR. In both of these fights, the spinner disabled the primary weapon of their opponent in the first hit, but then spent the remainder of the fight getting pushed around and dominated. In both cases, the spinner lost, so the judging is at least consistent.

[Kohr]

OK, so regarding that judge's decision, I think it's useful to zoom out and remember that robot combat has no 'objective' judging criteria no matter how much we try to codify that. It all depends on your philosophy. Is it just who can deliver the most damage, regardless of what happens in the fight? Is it who is dominating the fight and actually attacking their opponent? The first philosophy favours spinners, because they can just spin up and wait for someone to touch them. The second philosophy favours lifters, wedges, and grabbers, who can take control of a robot and dictate the fight.

Yeah, this is a fair point. There are a ton of different weapon types in robot combat, but I think you can distill them down to three types.

1. Spinners. Goal is to do enough damage to KO the opponent.
2. Flippers. Goal is to throw the opponent out of the arena.
3. Control bots. Includes everything from hammers to saws to lifters. Sometimes their weapon is powerful enough for a KO, but the main goal really is to push the other robot around and prevent them from doing anything.

That's why I prefer your second philosophy, because it makes things a little more equal in my opinion. Spinners always have a path to a KO. A control bot with less KO power needs to also have a shot at victory, and that's where the rules should come in. They should reward control bots for exercising control, consequently diversifying the number of viable weapon types and configurations in the sport. And diversity is good.

[Ameriganastan]

I was busy yesterday, so I just watched my recording of it.

Rotator was completely robbed, and Lisa is the worst judge on this show.

[Pencil Sharpeners 2]

Interesting video explaining Bloodsport's new THICC bar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hunc-eLEg3o

[Pencil Sharpeners 2]

My talking points for this episode:

- What does Slap Box do? It's possible they're just cannon fodder to allow Tombstone to get an easy win, but presumably the producers think there's some merit in this matchup
- Can Slammow break the 'Danby Curse'? Craig Danby has been competing since the 90s on both sides of the pond, but only has one televised victory to his name. Allegedly Slammow is actually pretty decent and will work for longer than 10 seconds before breaking down, but I have my doubts.
- Is Perfect Phoenix actually good? It won its first fight by waiting for its opponent to run into the wall and die, but I suspect Skorpios won't do that. Skorpios itself has already lost to an overhead spinner this year, so this will be an interesting comparison.
- Is Madcatter actually good? They seemed much improved against Fusion, but then again, Fusion did set itself on fire after 30 seconds. Ribbot may not be as powerful, but has a track record of being reasonably durable. Whoever wins this puts themselves in a great position for the top 32.
- What does new Chomp do? They've given Chomp a harmless opponent in Gamma 9, so this will really just be a test to see if Chomp can break a robot which will in all likelihood be built like a brick.
- How many hits will the main event last? I'm thinking 3 hits maximum. These two robots really impressed me in the first episode, and I'm looking forward to seeing Bloodsport's new thicc bar. If they can beat Endgame, they might be able to stake a claim to have surpassed Tombstone as the best horizontal in Battlebots.

[Kohr]

(Image)

My talking points for this episode:

- What does Slap Box do? It's possible they're just cannon fodder to allow Tombstone to get an easy win, but presumably the producers think there's some merit in this matchup
- Can Slammow break the 'Danby Curse'? Craig Danby has been competing since the 90s on both sides of the pond, but only has one televised victory to his name. Allegedly Slammow is actually pretty decent and will work for longer than 10 seconds before breaking down, but I have my doubts.
- Is Perfect Phoenix actually good? It won its first fight by waiting for its opponent to run into the wall and die, but I suspect Skorpios won't do that. Skorpios itself has already lost to an overhead spinner this year, so this will be an interesting comparison.
- Is Madcatter actually good? They seemed much improved against Fusion, but then again, Fusion did set itself on fire after 30 seconds. Ribbot may not be as powerful, but has a track record of being reasonably durable. Whoever wins this puts themselves in a great position for the top 32.
- What does new Chomp do? They've given Chomp a harmless opponent in Gamma 9, so this will really just be a test to see if Chomp can break a robot which will in all likelihood be built like a brick.
- How many hits will the main event last? I'm thinking 3 hits maximum. These two robots really impressed me in the first episode, and I'm looking forward to seeing Bloodsport's new thicc bar. If they can beat Endgame, they might be able to stake a claim to have surpassed Tombstone as the best horizontal in Battlebots.

Chomp is really interesting this year, but I suspect they don't have enough maneuverability to outflank the many spinners that will inevitably destroy them. I'll be rooting for it though.

[Ameriganastan]

Ugh, Chomp. Who keeps inviting that piece of crap robot back.

[Kohr]

Ugh, Chomp. Who keeps inviting that piece of crap robot back.

It's a totally new design this year. Might be less bad.

[Ameriganastan]

That's the Tombstone I came to see.

[Andsed]

Can we get an f for Slapbox?

[United Kingdom of Poland]

honestly, when are people going to realize exposed wheels are a bad idea. That fell like the 9th or 10 time Tombstone alone has kneecapped a bot like that since 2015.

[Andsed]

Fuck Paintrain just got manhandled for like the entire fight.

[Kohr]

I'm happy for Craig.

[Kohr]

honestly, when are people going to realize exposed wheels are a bad idea. That fell like the 9th or 10 time Tombstone alone has kneecapped a bot like that since 2015.

People usually think they are good enough drivers to keep the wheels protected from the other bot's weapon. They're too often wrong.