Dragon Ball Discussion Thread - WAIFU WARS: THE DBZ FRONT

[Gurori]

Your comparisons are so barebones that it's a skeleton.

AndBuu isn't a reincarnation.

Also:

Janemba: Completely independent
Buu: Follows a master (at first)
Janemba: Manipulates reality
Buu: Uses magic
Janemba: Weakness to insults
Buu: No weakness
Janemba: Cannot talk
Buu: Can talk

See, I can play this game too.

Janemba: Fights SSJ3 Goku in his fat form, loses, enters Skinny form, dominates
Buu: Fights SSJ3 Goku in his fat form, loses, enters skinny form, dominates.
Janemba: Fights Vegeta, dominates
Buu: fights Vegeta, dominates
Janemba: Uses Magic Materialization (His Sword)
Buu: uses Magic materialization (his house)

At least it isn't as blatant as Lord Slug, who is basically just King Piccolo.

[Narintia]

Janemba: Fights SSJ3 Goku in his fat form, loses, enters Skinny form, dominates
Buu: Fights SSJ3 Goku in his fat form, loses, enters skinny form, dominates.
Janemba: Fights Vegeta, dominates
Buu: fights Vegeta, dominates
Janemba: Uses Magic Materialization (His Sword)
Buu: uses Magic materialization (his house)

Buu did not enter his super form during his battle with Goku, so the first point is invalid.

Janemba: Fights with a sword
Buu: Fights with his fists
Janemba: Fights Goku, Vegeta and Pikkon
Buu: Fights Gotenks, Gohan, Vegeta and Goku
Janemba: Looks genuinely cool and intimidating
Buu: Fuck no
Janemba: Dies to a fusion
Buu: Defeats a fusion and survives another

Your third point is invalid. I'm sure someone finds Buu intimidating lol
Also your first point, because This
Buu didn't defeat any fusion. SSJ3 Gotenks was superior to Super Buu

[Sichem]

Buu did not enter his super form during his battle with Goku, so the first point is invalid.

Janemba: Fights with a sword
Buu: Fights with his fists
Janemba: Fights Goku, Vegeta and Pikkon
Buu: Fights Gotenks, Gohan, Vegeta and Goku
Janemba: Looks genuinely cool and intimidating
Buu: Fuck no
Janemba: Dies to a fusion
Buu: Defeats a fusion and survives another

Your third point is invalid. I'm sure someone finds Buu intimidating lol
Also your first point, because This
Buu didn't defeat any fusion. SSJ3 Gotenks was superior to Super Buu

He only lasted a few minutes in that form though

[Narintia]

Your third point is invalid. I'm sure someone finds Buu intimidating lol
Also your first point, because This
Buu didn't defeat any fusion. SSJ3 Gotenks was superior to Super Buu

He only lasted a few minutes in that form though

Goku only lasted a few minutes in SSJ3 against Fat Buu, but we know that SSJ3 Goku is stronger then Fat Buu

[Sichem]

He only lasted a few minutes in that form though

Goku only lasted a few minutes in SSJ3 against Fat Buu, but we know that SSJ3 Goku is stronger then Fat Buu

Yeah, but Goku didn't win against Fat Buu, he pretty much just gave up and left

[Gurori]

Goku only lasted a few minutes in SSJ3 against Fat Buu, but we know that SSJ3 Goku is stronger then Fat Buu

Yeah, but Goku didn't win against Fat Buu, he pretty much just gave up and left

Because Buu is super invincible bubblegum man.

[Reploid Productions]

On an unrelated note: Does anybody else think that Goku Black is fanservice for the people who wanted an "Evil Goku", I mean was Turles not enough for them?

Eh, maybe not outright fanservice, but definitely a nod to the rapid escalation in power levels over the course of the series. Mirror matches and "good guy goes bad" are pretty common tropes, though Black's actual background is a fun little spin on the usual what with the case of Grand Theft Me thrown into the mix. Given Goku's place at the top of the cast hierarchy, it becomes kinda inevitable that eventually the only thing that could pose a legit threat to him is, well, him. But since we all know hell would freeze over before he would willingly go bad... well, that's where the writers had to find a way to turn Goku's firepower against the good guys while working around that fact. An RP I was in before Super even started had a similar idea, only it was the Big Bads of the arc using specialized nanoweapons that could hijack the victim's motor control out from under them, that conveniently only worked on pureblooded Saiyajins, not any of the half-breeds running around. Worked great too, because it not only took both Goku and Vegeta out of the good guys' arsenal, it forced the rest of the canon cast and player characters to scramble to try and figure out a solution.

Might be a part of why Hit is such a fascinating character too, because his abilities avert the "moar power" trope to an extent. He fights smarter, not harder; and thus beating him isn't a straightfoward case where simply gaining more strength is the answer. Fighting him requires more thought and strategy, especially given what we've now seen of his abilities outside the constraints of the tournament ring. Really curious to see what comes up with him in later arcs of Super.

As for Turles and the Tree of Might, suffice to say I hate that movie and everything about it with the wrath only a 90s DBZ fan in the US can generate. Admittedly, due less to the movie itself and owing more to its status as the barrier guardian to "Are we getting new episodes NOW plz plz plz?" back then.

[The United Neptumousian Empire]

I can't imagine being a DB fan back in those days where seeing a new episode was actually dependent on TV broadcasting and licensing and junk. well maybe I can a little, I remember watching the final battle in GT when I was like 10 and then the power went out right as Goku was gonna throw the Spirit Bomb and that was it, GT never came on TV again after that lmao

but I only really got back into Dragon Ball in 2014, when I was 20 already, so it was very easy to marathon the whole series

[Narintia]

On an unrelated note: Does anybody else think that Goku Black is fanservice for the people who wanted an "Evil Goku", I mean was Turles not enough for them?

Eh, maybe not outright fanservice, but definitely a nod to the rapid escalation in power levels over the course of the series. Mirror matches and "good guy goes bad" are pretty common tropes, though Black's actual background is a fun little spin on the usual what with the case of Grand Theft Me thrown into the mix. Given Goku's place at the top of the cast hierarchy, it becomes kinda inevitable that eventually the only thing that could pose a legit threat to him is, well, him. But since we all know hell would freeze over before he would willingly go bad... well, that's where the writers had to find a way to turn Goku's firepower against the good guys while working around that fact. An RP I was in before Super even started had a similar idea, only it was the Big Bads of the arc using specialized nanoweapons that could hijack the victim's motor control out from under them, that conveniently only worked on pureblooded Saiyajins, not any of the half-breeds running around. Worked great too, because it not only took both Goku and Vegeta out of the good guys' arsenal, it forced the rest of the canon cast and player characters to scramble to try and figure out a solution.

Might be a part of why Hit is such a fascinating character too, because his abilities avert the "moar power" trope to an extent. He fights smarter, not harder; and thus beating him isn't a straightfoward case where simply gaining more strength is the answer. Fighting him requires more thought and strategy, especially given what we've now seen of his abilities outside the constraints of the tournament ring. Really curious to see what comes up with him in later arcs of Super.

As for Turles and the Tree of Might, suffice to say I hate that movie and everything about it with the wrath only a 90s DBZ fan in the US can generate. Admittedly, due less to the movie itself and owing more to its status as the barrier guardian to "Are we getting new episodes NOW plz plz plz?" back then.

Hey at least you had a good dub
I grew up with the AB Groupe dub, if that isn't dedication I don't know what is lol xD

[Reploid Productions]

I can't imagine being a DB fan back in those days where seeing a new episode was actually dependent on TV broadcasting and licensing and junk. well maybe I can a little, I remember watching the final battle in GT when I was like 10 and then the power went out right as Goku was gonna throw the Spirit Bomb and that was it, GT never came on TV again after that lmao

but I only really got back into Dragon Ball in 2014, when I was 20 already, so it was very easy to marathon the whole series

WHIPPERSNAPPER YOUNGIN GIT OFFA MAH LAWN etc etc etc. Yeah, being an anime fan in the 90s (or earlier) was rough, no matter WHAT series you were into. English dubs if they existed tended to be censored to fuck and/or just atrocious voice work (4kids, all of my hate!) because "Cartoons = it's supposed to be for kids!" Subs were difficult to come by, with official subs often similarly dumbed down, and unofficial subs tending to be really crappy video quality and often dubious translation accuracy. I've still got in a box somehere a really crappy quality VHS copy a friend mailed me in the late 90s of History of Trunks, clearly taped straight off of Japanese TV, complete with incomprehensible Japanese commercials and marginally accurate subtitles. And I think another VHS of Fusion Reborn that's completely raw, no subtitles at all.

[Britanania]

I can't imagine being a DB fan back in those days where seeing a new episode was actually dependent on TV broadcasting and licensing and junk. well maybe I can a little, I remember watching the final battle in GT when I was like 10 and then the power went out right as Goku was gonna throw the Spirit Bomb and that was it, GT never came on TV again after that lmao

but I only really got back into Dragon Ball in 2014, when I was 20 already, so it was very easy to marathon the whole series

WHIPPERSNAPPER YOUNGIN GIT OFFA MAH LAWN etc etc etc. Yeah, being an anime fan in the 90s (or earlier) was rough, no matter WHAT series you were into. English dubs if they existed tended to be censored to fuck and/or just atrocious voice work (4kids, all of my hate!) because "Cartoons = it's supposed to be for kids!" Subs were difficult to come by, with official subs often similarly dumbed down, and unofficial subs tending to be really crappy video quality and often dubious translation accuracy. I've still got in a box somehere a really crappy quality VHS copy a friend mailed me in the late 90s of History of Trunks, clearly taped straight off of Japanese TV, complete with incomprehensible Japanese commercials and marginally accurate subtitles. And I think another VHS of Fusion Reborn that's completely raw, no subtitles at all.

It was super weird when they would change dubs/actors midway through, with no/little warning.

[Reploid Productions]

WHIPPERSNAPPER YOUNGIN GIT OFFA MAH LAWN etc etc etc. Yeah, being an anime fan in the 90s (or earlier) was rough, no matter WHAT series you were into. English dubs if they existed tended to be censored to fuck and/or just atrocious voice work (4kids, all of my hate!) because "Cartoons = it's supposed to be for kids!" Subs were difficult to come by, with official subs often similarly dumbed down, and unofficial subs tending to be really crappy video quality and often dubious translation accuracy. I've still got in a box somehere a really crappy quality VHS copy a friend mailed me in the late 90s of History of Trunks, clearly taped straight off of Japanese TV, complete with incomprehensible Japanese commercials and marginally accurate subtitles. And I think another VHS of Fusion Reborn that's completely raw, no subtitles at all.

It was super weird when they would change dubs/actors midway through, with no/little warning.

If I recall right, in the early days of the DBZ dub, Funimation contracted the voicing out to another studio. (I want to say it was Ocean Group-?) After that long gap y'all have heard me bitch about, they had their own in-house studio and switched to recording from there. Given how long Z's run was, and the fact "anime voiceover" wasn't really a full-time career, keeping the same crew the whole time wasn't especially viable.

But oh man. I remember how hyped everybody was when it was finally announce that YES, we were FINALLY getting the rest of the Frieza saga, getting up to That One Episode where it would always go to Tree of (fucking) Might the next day... and having a huge "OMGWTF" moment at the all-new voices. I have long since warmed up to the current crew, but after years of running through the series up to that point with the old voices, the change was rather jarring at first.

[Saiwania]

If I recall right, in the early days of the DBZ dub, Funimation contracted the voicing out to another studio. (I want to say it was Ocean Group-?) After that long gap y'all have heard me bitch about, they had their own in-house studio and switched to recording from there. Given how long Z's run was, and the fact "anime voiceover" wasn't really a full-time career, keeping the same crew the whole time wasn't especially viable.

Funimation was practically a brand new company back in 1995 and was still new to dubbing anime, which is why initially they outsourced to other companies. There are multiple English dubs of DBZ throughout history, so it can be confusing. But the definitive English dub of DBZ gradually became the one which was done by Funimation. The primary reason for bringing everything in house was allegedly because it became difficult for Funimation's producer to keep traveling to Vancouver to record with Ocean Studios and it saved significantly on costs to instead get everything done in Texas.

Chris Sabat was put in charge of auditioning people for doing various DBZ voices and out of a few thousand applicants, they only found 11 or so people who were deemed skilled enough. Funimation tried to have the voices sound as close to the Ocean Studios cast as possible to have a seamless transition, but once DBZ was successful on its own ratings wise, Funimation felt free to redub DBZ their own way. No more Chris Sabot's Vegeta voice trying to mimic Brian Drummond's for example.

[Narintia]

holy shit I just realised how OP Fusion is

Let's say Buu Saga Goku is 20 million PL in his base form
Now lets say Buu Saga Tien is only 1,000 (which is ludricously impossible but i'm trying to make a point)

If they fused using Potara (which is PL X PL) it would be a grand total of 20 billion
Then all they have to do is go SSJ and get another boost of x 50 to 1 fucking trillion
It wouldn't matter if he fused with Hercule, even if Hercule is a 10
20 million x 10 = 200 million
SSJ3 is 400x so he would be at 80 billion just by fusing with Hercule
I hope you realise just how OP Potara Fusion is.

[Lost heros]

holy shit I just realised how OP Fusion is

Let's say Buu Saga Goku is 20 million PL in his base form
Now lets say Buu Saga Tien is only 1,000 (which is ludricously impossible but i'm trying to make a point)

If they fused using Potara (which is PL X PL) it would be a grand total of 20 billion
Then all they have to do is go SSJ and get another boost of x 50 to 1 fucking trillion
It wouldn't matter if he fused with Hercule, even if Hercule is a 10
20 million x 10 = 200 million
SSJ3 is 400x so he would be at 80 billion just by fusing with Hercule
I hope you realise just how OP Potara Fusion is.

I know we've minimized super saiyan to pure power multipliers but can we not do that with Fushion. How I've understood it, Fusion's greater power boost is more than just a power multiple. It combines the fusers two powers, techniques, drives, inspirations etc which does have a large impact.

[Gurori]

holy shit I just realised how OP Fusion is

Let's say Buu Saga Goku is 20 million PL in his base form
Now lets say Buu Saga Tien is only 1,000 (which is ludricously impossible but i'm trying to make a point)

If they fused using Potara (which is PL X PL) it would be a grand total of 20 billion
Then all they have to do is go SSJ and get another boost of x 50 to 1 fucking trillion
It wouldn't matter if he fused with Hercule, even if Hercule is a 10
20 million x 10 = 200 million
SSJ3 is 400x so he would be at 80 billion just by fusing with Hercule
I hope you realise just how OP Potara Fusion is.

Which means Super Saiyan Blue Vegito could probably beat Beerus if it weren't for the "shortened time limit".

[Sichem]

holy shit I just realised how OP Fusion is

Let's say Buu Saga Goku is 20 million PL in his base form
Now lets say Buu Saga Tien is only 1,000 (which is ludricously impossible but i'm trying to make a point)

If they fused using Potara (which is PL X PL) it would be a grand total of 20 billion
Then all they have to do is go SSJ and get another boost of x 50 to 1 fucking trillion
It wouldn't matter if he fused with Hercule, even if Hercule is a 10
20 million x 10 = 200 million
SSJ3 is 400x so he would be at 80 billion just by fusing with Hercule
I hope you realise just how OP Potara Fusion is.

Which means Super Saiyan Blue Vegito could probably beat Beerus if it weren't for the "shortened time limit".

Beerus is even more ludicrously OP so this argument is moot.

[Reploid Productions]

I hope you realise just how OP Potara Fusion is.

That's why it also had the major drawback of being allegedly permanent, effectively sacrificing both the characters involved in the process. The resulting fusion was stupidly powerful, above and beyond a mere addition of even multiplication of the component powers, but the tradeoff was that whole "there's no going back from this." It made the use of the Potara earrings very much a Godzilla threshold, precisely because of everything it represented: the assumed-permanent sacrifice of two of the biggest characters in the show, Vegeta however grudgingly relenting to working closely (beyond closely, really) with his rival, and so on.

Which is a big part of why I'm conflicted on Super retconning Potara fusion from "permanent outside of unusual circumstances" to "permanent for Kais, 1 hour for anybody else." On the one hand, it does provide a better explanation for why Vegito came undone inside Buu during Z than the at-the-time canon explanation of "Buu is magic, and magic does fuckin' weird things"/"Toriyama forgot he said it was permanent." On the other hand, it also completely negates the tradeoff that made the character's existence such a dramatic thing, too. I mean, by that point in the series, thanks to Kaioshin during the U6 arc, we KNOW that it can be undone via the dragonballs, which seems a reasonable tradeoff, given in a way it'd be comparable to wishing two people back to life.

Plus, think of how hysterical and hilariously awkward it would have been having the rest of the cast stuck dealing with Vegito until they could round up the balls and do that during the aftermath of the Zamasu stuff! I mean, even if it was only a day or so to collect the balls, that's still a day or two with two wives, three kids, one granddaughter and plenty of friends and acquaintances trying to deal with this new character who is uncomfortably familiar and KNOWS all of them, yet is still totally new. And afterward, how utterly mortified Vegeta would probably have been by the simple fact that there were WITNESSES to whatever shenanigans the fusion got up to in the interim.

[The United Neptumousian Empire]

Which is a big part of why I'm conflicted on Super retconning Potara fusion from "permanent outside of unusual circumstances" to "permanent for Kais, 1 hour for anybody else." On the one hand, it does provide a better explanation for why Vegito came undone inside Buu during Z than the at-the-time canon explanation of "Buu is magic, and magic does fuckin' weird things"/"Toriyama forgot he said it was permanent." On the other hand, it also completely negates the tradeoff that made the character's existence such a dramatic thing, too. I mean, by that point in the series, thanks to Kaioshin during the U6 arc, we KNOW that it can be undone via the dragonballs, which seems a reasonable tradeoff, given in a way it'd be comparable to wishing two people back to life.

Plus, think of how hysterical and hilariously awkward it would have been having the rest of the cast stuck dealing with Vegito until they could round up the balls and do that during the aftermath of the Zamasu stuff! I mean, even if it was only a day or so to collect the balls, that's still a day or two with two wives, three kids, one granddaughter and plenty of friends and acquaintances trying to deal with this new character who is uncomfortably familiar and KNOWS all of them, yet is still totally new. And afterward, how utterly mortified Vegeta would probably have been by the simple fact that there were WITNESSES to whatever shenanigans the fusion got up to in the interim.

I really do wish they hadn't done the Potara retcon. they could have easily written it to have the same outcome without Vegeta and Goku defusing. they could have just had Vegito drop to base instead of defusing, having used up all his energy, then Trunks still has to fight Zamasu with the Spirit Sword and so on.

the filler that could have happened afterward with Vegito would have been hilarious.

[Reploid Productions]

Which is a big part of why I'm conflicted on Super retconning Potara fusion from "permanent outside of unusual circumstances" to "permanent for Kais, 1 hour for anybody else." On the one hand, it does provide a better explanation for why Vegito came undone inside Buu during Z than the at-the-time canon explanation of "Buu is magic, and magic does fuckin' weird things"/"Toriyama forgot he said it was permanent." On the other hand, it also completely negates the tradeoff that made the character's existence such a dramatic thing, too. I mean, by that point in the series, thanks to Kaioshin during the U6 arc, we KNOW that it can be undone via the dragonballs, which seems a reasonable tradeoff, given in a way it'd be comparable to wishing two people back to life.

Plus, think of how hysterical and hilariously awkward it would have been having the rest of the cast stuck dealing with Vegito until they could round up the balls and do that during the aftermath of the Zamasu stuff! I mean, even if it was only a day or so to collect the balls, that's still a day or two with two wives, three kids, one granddaughter and plenty of friends and acquaintances trying to deal with this new character who is uncomfortably familiar and KNOWS all of them, yet is still totally new. And afterward, how utterly mortified Vegeta would probably have been by the simple fact that there were WITNESSES to whatever shenanigans the fusion got up to in the interim.

I really do wish they hadn't done the Potara retcon. they could have easily written it to have the same outcome without Vegeta and Goku defusing. they could have just had Vegito drop to base instead of defusing, having used up all his energy, then Trunks still has to fight Zamasu with the Spirit Sword and so on.

the filler that could have happened afterward with Vegito would have been hilarious.

Inorite? Zamasu at that point was definitely a Godzilla Threshold villain, and one that could believably have worn down even Vegito's power reserves. Zamasu vs Vegito could easily have worn the Big Bad down enough that Trunks could come in mostly fresh and finish the job, all without the stupid retcon. The retcon was totally unnecessary and a disservice to all the characters involved. Plus, if memory serves, Shenron can't grant the same wish twice, so using wishes to undo a fusion still keeps the notion as an absolute last-ditch resort because eventually it WOULD wind up permanent, or at least amazingly difficult to undo since it'd require a trip out to Namek or trying to figure out how to locate and MOVE the giant fucking Super balls.

And yes, with as hysterical as any filler is with the superpowered characters trying to blend with the normals can be, just imagining Vegito trying to fit in even among the superpowered characters and deal with that massive amount of familial awkwardness is absolutely AMAZING. That'd be up there with the driving episode in Z as Best Filler Ever!

GodDAMNIT, Toriyama!

[Gurori]

So Trunks DESTROYED Merged Zamasu, and that must include Black's Time Ring.

When Present Zamasu (who becomes Black) was erased from existence by Beerus, the only thing keeping Black from disappearing was the time ring he was wearing. So since Trunks destroyed Merged Zamasu and probably the time ring too, wouldn't that mean that the future wouldn't be in ruin? Because there would be no Goku Black to initiate the Zero Mortals plan in that timeline. That makes Future Zen-oh's appearance (and destruction of that timeline's entire multiverse) POINTLESS.

[Reploid Productions]

So Trunks DESTROYED Merged Zamasu, and that must include Black's Time Ring.

When Present Zamasu (who becomes Black) was erased from existence by Beerus, the only thing keeping Black from disappearing was the time ring he was wearing. So since Trunks destroyed Merged Zamasu and probably the time ring too, wouldn't that mean that the future wouldn't be in ruin? Because there would be no Goku Black to initiate the Zero Mortals plan in that timeline. That makes Future Zen-oh's appearance (and destruction of that timeline's entire multiverse) POINTLESS.

Present Zamasu was destroyed, but from what we know about time travel in the DBverse... Black might have only THOUGHT that the ring was protecting him from paradox, and been wrong in that assumption. Wouldn't be the only time in that arc a deity was wrong about How Time Travel Works. Beerus destroying present-day Zamasu created a new timeline divergent from the one Black came from- at the end of the arc Whis even gently calls Beerus out on having messed with time by doing that. So there's two versions of the main timeline now, one where present Zamasu fulfilled his plot and killed Goku and the rest of Goku's family before using the time ring to pop over to the ruined future, and the new main timeline where Zamasu was destroyed before he could accomplish his scheme.

EDIT TO ADD:

Aw, that was cute. Gohan did remember how to be badass (well, badass-dorky, anyway) going all papa wolf about his little girl. ^_^

I was really kinda hoping Videl would slug that blonde jackass when he showed up with the blackmail photos though. I mean, her telling him off was great, but the woman was a fighter, goddamnit. Her socking him one across the face would have been glorious.

[Narintia]

Heavy stamina break + sledgehammer + Instant Transmission into Meteor Burst is the way I win all of my ranked matches now
Or for strike build
Wait for ultimate + stamina break + Time Skip/ Molotov or Darkness Rush
So far I've been kicked from 10 endless battles and 5 player matches

[Reploid Productions]

Heavy stamina break + sledgehammer + Instant Transmission into Meteor Burst is the way I win all of my ranked matches now
Or for strike build
Wait for ultimate + stamina break + Time Skip/ Molotov or Darkness Rush
So far I've been kicked from 10 endless battles and 5 player matches

So, you've found your personal fuckbox combo, basically?

[Narintia]

Heavy stamina break + sledgehammer + Instant Transmission into Meteor Burst is the way I win all of my ranked matches now
Or for strike build
Wait for ultimate + stamina break + Time Skip/ Molotov or Darkness Rush
So far I've been kicked from 10 endless battles and 5 player matches

So, you've found your personal fuckbox combo, basically?

Yup.I dare say it's worse then Super Electric Strike back in Xenoverse 1