Star Wars: Debate Thread

[Bearon]

Introduction

Hello all! I've noticed that though there is a thread for Star Wars as is in these forums there is no specific battle or debate thread for them which is why I'm creating this one. A vote will be held for the characters that had been previously debated between the participants of the thread. New votes and battles will be held after the previous battle and vote has been decided upon. New battles and votes will be put up based off the suggestions posted in the thread. The most up voted suggestion will become the next battle and poll. An Archive will be set up which will list all the battles that have taken place throughout the lifetime of this thread and the winners of said fight. To prevent puppets from being flooded into the thread I'll only be counting the votes of long time posters or WA nations. All EU feats are applicable and all characters are in their prime unless otherwise stated in the suggestion.

Battle Archive

Dooku vs Mace Windu. Winner: Mace Windu 29-16.

Revan vs Luke Skywalker. Winner: Luke Skywalker 5-2.

Revan vs Thrawn ( Tactical Battle ): Revan 9-7.

Dooku and Ventress vs Maul and Savage: Dooku and Ventress 15-3.

Quinlan Vas vs Rahm Kota:

Image Archive

http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2012/ ... 5j174x.jpg
http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/ori ... _windu.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ori ... -40070.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ori ... rm_war.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/e ... SRevan.jpg
http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2009 ... stache.jpg

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ori ... -maul_.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/ori ... ntress.jpg

[Bearon]

So I'll start us off. I believe Dooku would win this particular fight due to superior force powers and debatably superior Lightsaber skills.

[Bearon]

I will say only this:Disney will ruin Star Wars.

Disney HAS ruined Star Wars but in this thread EU feats are applicable.

[Bearon]

The poll will be put up now.

[The Romulan Republic]

I will say only this:Disney will ruin Star Wars.

Disney HAS ruined Star Wars but in this thread EU feats are applicable.

I don't see why they should be if they're non-canon, unless we're having a debate on EU material.

[Saiwania]

I will say only this:Disney will ruin Star Wars.

I doubt that the work Disney has done with Star Wars is actually that bad. The purists would argue that none of the prequel stuff which was done under George Lucas stands up against the original trilogy, but even the original trilogy had its weaker moments. The Empire Strikes Back is generally regarded as the strongest of the Star Wars films.

[Juristonia]

I will say only this:Disney will ruin Star Wars.

Yeah, just like they ruined all the other franchises they bought that are now hugely successful.
I mean, just look at Marvel. It's in shambles!

[Land of wisdom]

Windu would win as he is superior with his saber and fairly close with force skills. Also Windu is great at combat and could win as he would have killed Palpatine if Anakin had not cut off his arm

[Land of wisdom]

I will say only this:Disney will ruin Star Wars.

I doubt that the work Disney has done with Star Wars is actually that bad. The purists would argue that none of the prequel stuff which was done under George Lucas stands up against the original trilogy, but even the original trilogy had its weaker moments. The Empire Strikes Back is generally regarded as the strongest of the Star Wars films.

Disney can afford more then Lucasfilm and you never know they might do a lot with the timelines and things created by fans.

[Bearon]

Windu would win as he is superior with his saber and fairly close with force skills. Also Windu is great at combat and could win as he would have killed Palpatine if Anakin had not cut off his arm

In the EU before Dooku left the Order and joined the Sith it was said that he and Mace had dueled together and had both won and lost against eachother. Generally they have been portrayed as equals in dueling a source stating that while Dooku was still with the Order only Yoda and Mace could duel evenly with him. He would not have killed Palpatine as Palpatine was trying to lure Anakin to the Dark Side at the time and purposefully lost.

[Land of wisdom]

Windu would win as he is superior with his saber and fairly close with force skills. Also Windu is great at combat and could win as he would have killed Palpatine if Anakin had not cut off his arm

In the EU before Dooku left the Order and joined the Sith it was said that he and Mace had dueled together and had both won and lost against eachother. Generally they have been portrayed as equals in dueling a source stating that while Dooku was still with the Order only Yoda and Mace could duel evenly with him. He would not have killed Palpatine as Palpatine was trying to lure Anakin to the Dark Side at the time and purposefully lost.

Your right there but Mace was able to hold back Palpatine and when he did tire Mace would be able to end it. This is because most sith tire quickly and Palpatine is even quicker then some. They tire as they focus on rage, anger and energy that can run out quickly and sith are often extra focused and cannot summon their rage meaning not as much power. Also Dooku even at his prime relied more on his troops than his skill.

[Idzequitch]

Mace Windu wins easily. He bested Palpatine (Who, incidentally, was given the first name Sheev in a recent book) in combat, dying only because he was blindsided by the betrayal of an ally.
Palpatine is Dooku's Master, and I don't think anyone will deny that Palpatine is more powerful than Dooku.
It stands to reason that if Windu can defeat Palpatine, he could definitely beat Dooku. (Barring Anakin cutting his arm off or some similar idiocy).
Also, keep in mind that Windu is about 50 years old in Episode III, while Dooku, though spry for his age, is over 80. He would not last in a long battle.

[Land of wisdom]

Mace Windu wins easily. He bested Palpatine (Who, incidentally, was given the first name Sheev in a recent book) in combat, dying only because he was blindsided by the betrayal of an ally.
Palpatine is Dooku's Master, and I don't think anyone will deny that Palpatine is more powerful than Dooku.
It stands to reason that if Windu can defeat Palpatine, he could definitely beat Dooku. (Barring Anakin cutting his arm off or some similar idiocy).
Also, keep in mind that Windu is about 50 years old in Episode III, while Dooku, though spry for his age, is over 80. He would not last in a long battle.

In Prime.

[Idzequitch]

Mace Windu wins easily. He bested Palpatine (Who, incidentally, was given the first name Sheev in a recent book) in combat, dying only because he was blindsided by the betrayal of an ally.
Palpatine is Dooku's Master, and I don't think anyone will deny that Palpatine is more powerful than Dooku.
It stands to reason that if Windu can defeat Palpatine, he could definitely beat Dooku. (Barring Anakin cutting his arm off or some similar idiocy).
Also, keep in mind that Windu is about 50 years old in Episode III, while Dooku, though spry for his age, is over 80. He would not last in a long battle.

In Prime.

Fair enough, I missed that part. Dooku still loses.

[Bearon]

In the EU before Dooku left the Order and joined the Sith it was said that he and Mace had dueled together and had both won and lost against eachother. Generally they have been portrayed as equals in dueling a source stating that while Dooku was still with the Order only Yoda and Mace could duel evenly with him. He would not have killed Palpatine as Palpatine was trying to lure Anakin to the Dark Side at the time and purposefully lost.

Your right there but Mace was able to hold back Palpatine and when he did tire Mace would be able to end it. This is because most sith tire quickly and Palpatine is even quicker then some. They tire as they focus on rage, anger and energy that can run out quickly and sith are often extra focused and cannot summon their rage meaning not as much power. Also Dooku even at his prime relied more on his troops than his skill.

Sith do not lose energy faster then the Jedi. Dooku has dueled multiple opponents on several different occasions and has handled them easily even though Makashi isn't especially suited for fighting multiple opponents. Palpatine feigned weakness so he could draw Anakin to the Dark Side and while I'm willing to admit Windu had a large amp for that fight that allowed him to be near Palpatine's level Palpatine could have ended the fight with the force anytime he wanted as seen in the scene where he did just that with Sith Lightning. The degradation of his face was him taking the mask he used while Chancellor off not because he was harmed in any way.

Mace Windu wins easily. He bested Palpatine (Who, incidentally, was given the first name Sheev in a recent book) in combat, dying only because he was blindsided by the betrayal of an ally.
Palpatine is Dooku's Master, and I don't think anyone will deny that Palpatine is more powerful than Dooku.
It stands to reason that if Windu can defeat Palpatine, he could definitely beat Dooku. (Barring Anakin cutting his arm off or some similar idiocy).
Also, keep in mind that Windu is about 50 years old in Episode III, while Dooku, though spry for his age, is over 80. He would not last in a long battle.

I can link a post I stumbled upon a while back that might help clear up the Windu and Sidious fight I'll post it in just a moment.

Now as for primes Dooku is still in his prime around 80 because his force powers had grown significantly by that point and any physical failings he could shore up well enough with the force. As it was Dooku trained Grievous and is has been stated through multiple sources that Grievous could never land a blow on Dooku and Grievous is able to land 200 strikes per second. Mace Windu when fighting Grievous on a maglev whilst having the advantage of movement while Grievous was rooted to his own spot by his own magnetics Mace dueled with Grievous and was unable to land a single blow. Dooku managing to beat Grievous easily and Mace not even landing a blow when the cyborg couldn't even land a blow shows a lot when it comes to the gap in their skill I think.

[Bearon]

This is a heated topic, and one which both myself and JediXMan have become rather tired of. But I want to write this out here so I can avoid having to re-explain it ad nauseam on the forums. The debate over whether Palpatine truly lost to Mace Windu in Revenge of the Sith or whether he allowed Mace to win in order to win over Anakin is a complex subject. In this blog, I will describe (and provide proof of) the circumstances of the duel, clear up misconceptions, and give my opinion on it. I will say that my perspective on the matter may not be perfectly accurate, but if nothing else, mine is the most evidentially supported. I can respect if others disagree with my assessment, but I would also appreciate it if you consider the case I present here and make an objective consensus on it. If in doing that, you still disagree, fair enough, but if I challenge you in the forums about it, you will need to be able to provide reasoning for it.

Let me start by posting their duel. I believe everyone has seen the movie; so allow me to post the sequence from the novel, as that grants a better view of the whole picture.


The Coruscant nightfall was spreading through the galaxy. The darkness in the Force was no hindrance to the shadow in the Chancellor's office; it was the darkness. Wherever darkness dwelled, the shadow could send perception. In the night, the shadow felt the boy's anguish, and it was good. The shadow felt the grim determination of four Jedi Masters approaching by air. This, too, was good.

As a Jedi shuttle settled to the landing deck outside, the shadow sent its mind into the far deeper night within one of the several pieces of sculpture that graced the office: an abstract twist of solid neuranium, so heavy that the office floor had been specially reinforced to bear its weight, so dense that more sensitive species might, from very close range, actually perceive the tiny warping of the fabric of space-time that was its gravitation.

Neuranium of more than roughly a millimeter thick is impervious to sensors; the standard security scans undergone by all equipment and furniture to enter the Senate Office Building had shown nothing at all. If anyone had thought to use an advanced gravimetric detector, however, they might have discovered that one smallish section of the sculpture massed slightly less than it should have, given that the manifest that had accompanied it, when it was brought from Naboo among the then-ambassador's personal effects, clearly stated that it was a single piece of solid-forged neuranium.

The manifest was a lie. The sculpture was not entirely solid, and not all of it was neuranium. Within a long, slim, rod-shaped cavity around which the sculpture had been forged rested a device that had lain, waiting, in absolute darkness—darkness beyond darkness—for decades. Waiting for night to fall on the Republic.

The shadow felt Jedi Masters stride the vast echoic emptiness of the vaulted halls outside. It could practically hear the cadence of their boot heels on the Alderaanian marble. The darkness within the sculpture whispered of the shape and the feel and every intimate resonance of the device it cradled. With a twist of its will, the shadow triggered the device. The neuranium got warm. A small round spot, smaller than the circle a human child might make of thumb and forefinger, turned the color of old blood.

Then fresh blood.

Then open flame.

Finally a spear of scarlet energy lanced free, painting the office with the color of stars seen through the smoke of burning planets. The spear of energy lengthened, drawing with it out from the darkness the device, then the scarlet blade shrank away and the device slid itself within the softer darkness of a sleeve.

As shouts of the Force scattered Redrobes beyond the office's outer doors, the shadow gestured and lampdisks ignited. Another shout of the Force burst open the inner door to the private office. As Jedi stormed in, a final flick of the shadow's will triggered a recording device concealed within the desk.

Audio only.

"Why, Master Windu," said the shadow. "What a pleasant surprise."





Shaak Ti felt him coming before she could see him. The infra-and ultrasound-sensitive cavities in the tall, curving montrals to either side of her head gave her a sense analogous to touch: the texture of his approaching footsteps was ragged as old sacking. As he rounded the corner to the landing deck door, his breathing felt like a pile of gravel and his heartbeat was spiking like a Zabrak's head. He didn't look good, either; he was deathly pale, even for a human, and his eyes were raw.

"Anakin," she said warmly. Perhaps a friendly word was what he needed; she doubted he'd gotten many from Mace Windu. "Thank you for what you have done. The Jedi Order is in your debt—the whole galaxy, as well."

"Shaak Ti. Get out of my way."

Shaky as he looked, there was nothing unsteady in his voice: it was deeper than she remembered, more mature, and it carried undertones of authority that she had never heard before. And she was not blind to the fact he had neglected to call her Master.

She put forth a hand, offering calming energies through the Force. "The Temple is sealed, Anakin. The door is code-locked."

"And you're in the way of the pad."

She stepped aside, allowing him to the pad; she had no reason to keep him here against his will. He punched the code hungrily. "If Palpatine retaliates," she said reasonably, "is not your place here, to help with our defense?"

"I'm the chosen one. My place is there." His breathing roughened, and he looked as if he was getting even sicker. "I have to be there. That's the prophecy, isn't it? I have to be there—"

"Anakin, why? The Masters are the best of the Order. What can you possibly do?" The door slid open.

"I'm the chosen one," he repeated. "Prophecy can't be changed. I'll do—" He looked at her with eyes that were dying, and a spasm of unendurable pain passed over his face. Shaak Ti reached for him—he should be in the infirmary, not heading toward what might be a savage battle—but he lurched away from her hand. "I'll do what I'm supposed to do," he said, and sprinted into the night and the rain.





[the following is a transcript of an audio recording presented before the Galactic Senate on the afternoon of the first Empire Day; identities of all speakers verified and confirmed by voiceprint analysis]

PALPATINE: Why, Master Windu. What a pleasant surprise.

MACE WINDU: Hardly a surprise, Chancellor. And it will be pleasant for neither of us.

PALPATINE: I'm sorry? Master Fisto, hello. Master Kolar, greetings. I trust you are well. Master Tiin—I see your horn has regrown; I'm very glad. What brings four Jedi Masters to my office at this hour?

MACE WINDU: We know who you are. What you are. We are here to take you into custody.

PALPATINE: I beg your pardon? What I am? When last I checked, I was Supreme Chancellor of the Republic you are sworn to serve. I hope I misunderstand what you mean by custody, Master Windu. It smacks of treason.

MACE WINDU: You're under arrest.

PALPATINE: Really, Master Windu, you cannot be serious. On what charge?

MACE WINDU: You're a Sith Lord!

PALPATINE: Am I? Even if true, that's hardly a crime. My philosophical outlook is a personal matter. In fact—the last time I read the Constitution, anyway—we have very strict laws against this type of persecution. So I ask you again: what is my alleged crime? How do you expect to justify your mutiny before the Senate? Or do you intend to arrest the Senate as well?

MACE WINDU: We're not here to argue with you.

PALPATINE: No, you're here to imprison me without trial. Without even the pretense of legality. So this is the plan, at last: the Jedi are taking over the Republic.

MACE WINDU: Come with us. Now.

PALPATINE: I shall do no such thing. If you intend to murder me, you can do so right here.

MACE WINDU: Don't try to resist.

[sounds that have been identified by frequency resonances to be the ignition of several lightsabers]

PALPATINE: Resist? How could I possibly resist? This is murder, you Jedi traitors! How can I be any threat to you? Master Tiin—you're the telepath. What am I thinking right now?

[sounds of scuffle]

KIT FISTO: Saesee—

AGEN KOLAR: [garbled; possibly "It doesn't hurt"(?)]

[sounds of scuffle]

PALPATINE: Help! Help! Security—someone! Help me! Murder! Treason!

[recording ends]





A fountain of amethyst energy burst from Mace Windu's fist. "Don't try to resist."

The song of his blade was echoed by green fire from the hands of Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar, and Saesee Tiin. Kolar and Tiin closed on Palpatine, blocking the path to the door. Shadows dripped and oozed color, weaving and coiling up office walls slipping over chairs, spreading along the floor.

"Resist? How could I possibly resist?" Still seated at the desk Palpatine shook an empty fist helplessly, the perfect image of a tired, frightened old man. "This is murder, you Jedi traitors! How can I be any threat to you?"

He turned desperately to Saesee Tiin. "Master Tiin—you're the telepath. What am I thinking right now?" Tiin frowned and cocked his head. His blade dipped. A smear of red-flashing darkness hurtled from behind the desk. Saesee Tiin's head bounced when it hit the floor. Smoke curled from the neck, and from the twin stumps of the horns, severed just below the chin.

Kit Fisto gasped, "Saesee!"

The headless corpse, still standing, twisted as its knees buckled, and a thin sigh escaped from its trachea as it folded to the floor.

"It doesn't..." Agen Kolar swayed. His emerald blade shrank away, and the handgrip tumbled from his opening fingers. A small, neat hole in the middle of his forehead leaked smoke, showing light from the back of his head. "...hurt..." He pitched forward onto his face, and lay still.

Palpatine stood at the doorway, but the door stayed shut. From his right hand extended a blade the color of fire. The door locked itself at his back.

"Help! Help!" Palpatine cried like a man in desperate fear for his life. "Security—someone! Help me! Murder! Treason!"

Then he smiled. He held one finger to his lips, and, astonishingly, he winked. In the blank second that followed, while Mace Windu and Kit Fisto could do no more than angle their lightsabers to guard, Palpatine swiftly stepped over the bodies back toward his desk, reversed his blade, and drove it in a swift, surgically precise stab down through his desktop.

"That's enough of that."

He let it burn its way free through the front, then he turned, lifting his weapon, appearing to study it as one might study the face of a beloved friend one has long thought dead. Power gathered around him until the Force shimmered with darkness.

"If you only knew," he said softly, perhaps speaking to the Jedi Masters, or perhaps to himself, or perhaps even to the scarlet blade lifted now as though in mocking salute, "how long I have been waiting for this..."





Anakin's speeder shrieked through the rain, dodging forked bolts of lightning that shot up from towers into the clouds, slicing across traffic lanes, screaming past spacescrapers so fast that his shock-wake cracked windows as he passed.

He didn't understand why people didn't just get out of his way. He didn't understand how the trillion beings who jammed Galactic City could go about their trivial business as though the universe hadn't changed. How could they think they counted for anything, compared with him? How could they think they still mattered? Their blind lives meant nothing now. None of them. Because ahead, on the vast cliff face of the Senate Office Building, one window spat lightning into the rain to echo the lightning of the storm outside—but this lightning was the color of clashing lightsabers.

Green fans, sheets of purple—

And crimson flame. He was too late. The green fire faded and winked out; now the lightning was only purple and red.

His repulsorlifts howled as he heeled the speeder up onto its side, skidding through wind-shear turbulence to bring it to a bobbing halt outside the window of Palpatine's private office. A blast of lightning hit the spire of 500 Republica, only a kilometer away, and its white burst flared off the window, flash-blinding him; he blinked furiously, slapping at his eyes in frustration. The colorless glare inside his eyes faded slowly, bringing into focus a jumble of bodies on the floor of Palpatine's private office. Bodies in Jedi robes.

On Palpatine's desk lay the head of Kit Fisto, faceup, scalp-tentacles unbound in a squid-tangle across the ebonite. His lidless eyes stared blindly at the ceiling. Anakin remembered him in the arena at Geonosis, effortlessly carving his way through wave after wave of combat droids, on his lips a gently humorous smile as though the horrific battle were only some friendly jest. His severed head wore that same smile. Maybe he thought death was funny, too.

Anakin's own blade sang blue as it slashed through the window and he dived through the gap. He rolled to his feet among a litter of bodies and sprinted through a shattered door along the small private corridor and through a doorway that flashed and flared with energy-scatter. Anakin skidded to a stop.

Within the public office of the Supreme Chancellor of the Galactic Republic, a last Jedi Master battled alone, blade-to-blade, against a living shadow.





Sinking into Vaapad, Mace Windu fought for his life. More than his life: each whirl of blade and whipcrack of lightning was a strike in defense of democracy, of justice and peace, of the rights of ordinary beings to live their own lives in their own ways. He was fighting for the Republic that he loved.

Vaapad, the seventh form of lightsaber combat, takes its name from a notoriously dangerous predator native to the moons of Sarapin: a vaapad attacks its prey with whipping strikes of its blindingly fast tentacles. Most have at least seven. It is not uncommon for them to have as many as twelve; the largest ever killed had twenty-three. With a vaapad, one never knew how many tentacles it had until it was dead: they move too fast to count. Almost too fast to see. So did Mace's blade.

Vaapad is as aggressive and powerful as its namesake, but its power comes at great risk: immersion in Vaapad opens the gates that restrain one's inner darkness. To use Vaapad, a Jedi must allow himself to enjoy the fight; he must give himself over to the thrill of battle. The rush of winning. Vaapad is a path that leads through the penumbra of the dark side. Mace Windu created this style, and he was its only living master. This was Vaapad's ultimate test.





Anakin blinked and rubbed his eyes again. Maybe he was still a bit flash-blind—the Korun Master seemed to be fading in and out of existence, half swallowed by a thickening black haze in which danced a meter-long bar of sunfire. Mace pressed back the darkness with a relentless straight-ahead march; his own blade, that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own: an oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once.

The shadow he fought, that blur of speed—could that be Palpatine?

Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts of fire, weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that Anakin could not truly see them—but he could feel them in the Force. The Force itself roiled and burst and crashed around them, boiling with power and lightspeed ricochets of lethal intent. And it was darkening.

Anakin could feel how the Force fed upon the shadow's murderous exaltation; he could feel fury spray into the Force though some poisonous abscess had crested in both their hearts. There was no Jedi restraint here. Mace Windu was cutting loose.





Mace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it, he no longer truly existed as an independent being. Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center—

And let it fountain out again. He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt.

There was a time when Mace Windu had feared the power of the dark; there was a time when he had feared the darkness in himself. But the Clone Wars had given him a gift of understanding: on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared. He had learned that it is fear that gives the darkness power. He was not afraid. The darkness had no power over him. But—

Neither did he have power over it.

Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.

Impasse.

Which might have gone on forever, if Vaapad were Mace's only gift. The fighting was effortless for him now; he let his body handle it without the intervention of his mind. While his blade spun and crackled, while his feet slid and his weight shifted and his shoulders turned in precise curves of their own direction, his mind slid along the circuit of dark power, tracing it back to its limitless source. Feeling for its shatterpoint. He found a knot of fault lines in the shadow's future; he chose the largest fracture and followed it back to the here and the now—

And it led him, astonishingly, to a man standing frozen in the slashed-open doorway. Mace had no need to look; the presence in the Force was familiar, and was as uplifting as sunlight breaking through a thunderhead. The chosen one was here.

Mace disengaged from the shadow's blade and leapt for the window; he slashed away the transparisteel with a single flourish. His instant's distraction cost him: a dark surge of the Force nearly blew him right out of the gap he had just cut. Only a desperate Force-push of his own altered his path enough that he slammed into a stanchion instead of plunging half a kilometer from the ledge outside. He bounced off and the Force cleared his head and once again he gave himself to Vaapad.

He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear. Easily, almost effortlessly, he turned the shadow's fear into a weapon: he angled the battle to bring them both out onto the window ledge. Out in the wind. Out with the lightning. Out on a rain-slicked ledge above a half-kilometer drop. Out where the shadow's fear made it hesitate. Out where the shadow's fear turned some of its Force-powered speed into a Force-powered grip on the slippery permacrete. Out where Mace could flick his blade in one precise arc and slash the shadow's lightsaber in half.

One piece flipped back in through the cut-open window. The other tumbled from opening fingers, bounced on the ledge, and fell through the rain toward the distant alleys below. Now the shadow was only Palpatine: old and shrunken, thinning hair bleached white by time and care, face lined with exhaustion.

"For all your power, you are no Jedi. All you are, my lord," Mace said evenly, staring past his blade, "is under arrest."

"Do you see, Anakin? Do you?" Palpatine's voice once again had the broken cadence of a frightened old man's. "Didn't I warn you of the Jedi and their treason?"

"Save your twisted words, my lord. There are no politicians here. The Sith will never regain control of the Republic. It's over. You've lost." Mace leveled his blade. "You lost for the same reason the Sith always lose: defeated by your own fear."

Palpatine lifted his head. His eyes smoked with hate. "Fool," he said. He lifted his arms, his robes of office spreading wide into raptor's wings, his hands hooking into talons.

"Fool!" His voice was a shout of thunder. "Do you think the fear you feel is mine?"

Lightning blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him. Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him. And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source. Palpatine staggered, snarling, but the blistering energy that loured from his hands only intensified. He fed the power with his pain.

"Anakin!" Mace called. His voice sounded distant, blurred, as if it came from the bottom of a well. "Anakin, help me! This is your chance!"

He felt Anakin's leap from the office floor to the ledge, felt his approach behind—

And Palpatine was not afraid. Mace could feel it: he wasn't worried at all.

"Destroy this traitor," the Chancellor said, his voice raised aver the howl of writhing energy that joined his hands to Mace's blade. "This was never an arrest. It's an assassination!"

That was when Mace finally understood. He had it. The key to final victory. Palpatine's shatterpoint. The absolute shatterpoint of the Sith. The shatterpoint of the dark side itself. Mace thought, blankly astonished, Palpatine trusts Anakin Skywalker...

Now Anakin was at Mace's shoulder. Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face.

Palpatine's eyes glowed with power, casting a yellow glare that burned back the rain from around them. "He is a traitor, Anakin. Destroy him."

"You're the chosen one, Anakin," Mace said, his voice going thin with strain. This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade. "Take him. It's your destiny."

Skywalker echoed him faintly. "Destiny..."

"Help me! I can't hold on any longer!" The yellow glare from Palpatine's eyes spread outward through his flesh. His skin flowed like oil, as though the muscle beneath was burning away, as though even the bones of his skull were softening, were bending and bulging, deforming from the heat and pressure of his electric hatred. "He is killing me, Anakin—! Please, Anaaahhh—"

Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me—"

"Ahhh—" Palpatine's roar above the endless blast of lightning became a fading moan of despair. The lightning swallowed itself, leaving only the night and the rain, and an old man crumpled to his knees on a slippery ledge. "I... can't. I give up. I... I am too weak, in the end. Too old, and too weak. Don't kill me, Master Jedi. Please. I surrender."

Victory flooded through Mace's aching body. He lifted his blade. "You Sith disease—"

"Wait—" Skywalker seized his lightsaber arm with desperate strength. "Don't kill him—you can't just kill him, Master—"

"Yes, I can," Mace said, grim and certain. "I have to."

"You came to arrest him. He has to stand trial—"

"A trial would be a joke. He controls the courts. He controls the Senate—"

"So are you going to kill all them, too? Like he said you would?"

Mace yanked his arm free. "He's too dangerous to be left alive. If you could have taken Dooku alive, would you have?"

Skywalker's face swept itself clean of emotion. "That was different—"

Mace turned toward the cringing, beaten Sith Lord. "You can explain the difference after he's dead." He raised his lightsaber.

"I need him alive!" Skywalker shouted. "I need him to save Padme!"

Mace thought blankly, Why? And moved his lightsaber toward the fallen Chancellor. Before he could follow through on his stroke, a sudden arc of blue plasma sheared through his wrist and his hand tumbled away with his lightsaber still in it and Palpatine roared back to his feet and lightning speared from the Sith Lord's hands and without his blade to catch it, the power of Palpatine's hate struck him full-on.

He had been so intent on Palpatine's shatterpoint that he'd never thought to look for Anakin's. Dark lightning blasted away his universe. He fell forever.





Anakin Skywalker knelt in the rain. He was looking at a hand. The hand had brown skin. The hand held a lightsaber. The hand had a charred oval of tissue where it should have been attached to an arm.

"What have I done?" Was it his voice? It must have been. Because it was his question. "What have I done?"

Another hand, a warm and human hand, laid itself softly on his shoulder. "You're following your destiny, Anakin," said a familiar gentle voice. "The Jedi are traitors. You saved the Republic from their treachery. You can see that, can't you?"

"You were right," Anakin heard himself saying. "Why didn't I know?"

"You couldn't have. They cloaked themselves in deception, my boy. Because they feared your power, they could never trust you."

Anakin stared at the hand, but he no longer saw it. "Obi-Wan—Obi-Wan trusts me..."

"Not enough to tell you of their plot."

Treason echoed in his memory.

...this is not an assignment for the record...

That warm and human hand gave his shoulder a warm and human squeeze. "I do not fear your power, Anakin, I embrace it. You are the greatest of the Jedi. You can be the greatest of the Sith. I believe that, Anakin. I believe in you. I trust you. I trust you. I trust you."

Anakin looked from the dead hand on the ledge to the living one on his shoulder, then up to the face of the man who stood above him, and what he saw there choked him like an invisible fist crushing his throat. The hand on his shoulder was human. The face...wasn't.

The eyes were a cold and feral yellow, and they gleamed like those of a predator lurking beyond a fringe of firelight; the bone around those feral eyes had swollen and melted and flowed like durasteel spilled from a fusion smelter, and the flesh that blanketed it had gone corpse-gray and coarse as rotten synthplast. Stunned with horror, stunned with revulsion, Anakin could only stare at the creature. At the shadow. Looking into the face of the darkness, he saw his future.

"Now come inside," the darkness said.

After a moment, he did.





Anakin stood just within the office. Motionless. Palpatine examined the damage to his face in a broad expanse of wall mirror. Anakin couldn't tell if his expression might be revulsion, or if this were merely the new shape of his features. Palpatine lifted one tentative hand to the misshapen horror that he now saw in the mirror, then simply shrugged.

"And so the mask becomes the man," he sighed with a hint of philosophical melancholy. "I shall miss the face of Palpatine, I think; but for our purpose, the face of Sidious will serve. Yes, it will serve."

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith



Now, there are some very particular issues that need to be noted here, and despite the intended outcome being somewhat unclear, there are certainties, such as the following:

•Mace's speed/power was dramatically amped. He was operating on an exceptionally higher level than he ever has before, due to the events that took place.


•In terms of sheer skill, even with a huge speed and power amp, he still only fought Sidious as a perfect equal.


•Mace beat Palpatine by exploiting fear in him, but this fear was never there to begin with.


•Palpatine could have killed Mace with Force Lightning anytime he wanted.


•Yoda is factually a superior duelist to Mace, yet Palpatine fought evenly with him.


For the first point, let me show how this happened. Mace received a temporary, critical speed augmentation for this duel. This happened because of the nature of Vaapad. Vaapad is an off-shoot of the Juyo form of lightsaber combat. Juyo is an aggressive and erratic fighting form, much more than even Ataru is, and it is this aggression that has made it a matter of discussion among Jedi whether Juyo is a safe style to learn. It relies on simply relentless strokes thrown continually until the user's opponent is defeated. The notable difference between Juyo and Vaapad is that Vaapad is a channel for darkness. It takes the user "through the penumbra of the dark side." Vaapad affords the practitioner the ability to harness their own inner darkness (darkness, not the dark side for clarification's sake) as a ferocity and drive in combat but does so without them falling victim to their darkness. It arrests their inner darkness, such as their pain, aggressions, negative emotions, and so on, and directs this darkness as a weapon that can be controlled, a weapon for the light. Basically, Mace or Sora Bulq or Depa Billaba could draw on their darkness and still stay true to the light side of the Force. Mace divulged that the underlying principles of his form were an answer to his own weakness, which is a darkness that resides within him. Vaapad also works to turn the darkness of the enemy against them, but this has its limitations. It does not equate to an instant victory against any dark sider. Because the amassment of darkness animates Vaapad, the more darkness there is in the user, the more potent Vaapad will be, and this is how Mace's abilities were amplified.

In Mace's duel with Palpatine, he achieved a fighting state he had never accomplished before, and this happened because, at that time, the darkness within him had been monumentally increased. It was increased because Mace had an attachment to the Republic that was shattered when Anakin told him that Palpatine, the Republic's Supreme Chancellor, was the Sith. The Republic Mace had been fighting for had already fallen under the Sith's influence, and this affected him at his core, heightening his darkness. On account of that, Mace managed to wield his own immensely accentuated darkness, Sidious' darkness, and Anakin's fear in order to enhance his speed so much that Anakin was unable to see the movements of Mace's blade and instead only saw the dozens of afterimages of it and the "nets" and "oblate sphere" he blurred from his lightsaber. Mace has never shown to be faster than Anakin or anyone of Anakin's speed class.

The novel and other sources state this very plainly, pointing out that the focal point of Mace's existence has been a waste. The novel then describes that Anakin felt fury poor into the Force and that Mace endured with a "poisonous abscess" in his heart, a result of his attachment crumbling. More, it exposits on how Mace is immersed in Vaapad to a degree that had never been before, articulating that he was losing his individual being within it. Lastly, the novel outlines that in this fighting state, Mace was capable of absorbing Palpatine's darkness into himself and funneling it back out at him, which intensified Mace's power and speed.


Before Obi-Wan had left Coruscant, Mace Windu had told him of facing Grievous in single combat atop a mag-lev train during the general's daring raid to capture Palpatine. Mace had told him how the computers slaved to Grievous's brain had apparently analyzed even Mace's unconventionally lethal Vaapad and had been able to respond in kind after a single exchange.

"He must have been trained by Count Dooku," Mace had said, "so you can expect Makashi as well; given the number of Jedi he has fought and slain, you must expect that he can attack in any style, or all of them. In fact, Obi-Wan, I believe that of all living Jedi, you have the best chance to defeat him."

This pronouncement had startled Obi-Wan, and he had protested. After all, the only form in which he was truly even proficient was Soresu, which was the most common lightsaber form in the Jedi Order. Founded upon the basic deflection principles all Padawans were taught—to enable them to protect themselves from blaster bolts—Soresu was very simple, and so restrained and defense-oriented that it was very nearly downright passive.

"But surely, Master Windu," Obi-Wan had said, "you, with the power of Vaapad—or Yoda's mastery of Ataro—"

Mace Windu had almost smiled. "I created Vaapad to answer my weakness: it channels my own darkness into a weapon of the light. Master Yoda's Ataro is also an answer to weakness: the limitations of reach and mobility imposed by his stature and his age. But for you? What weakness does Soresu answer?"

Blinking, Obi-Wan had been forced to admit he'd never actually thought of it that way.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith




Anakin's revelation—that Palpatine and Darth Sidious are one and the same—hollows Mace to the core. Not days earlier, he and other Jedi had risked their lives against Grievous's droid forces to prevent Palpatine from being abducted. Grasping that the abduction and the war itself has been nothing more than a deception, Mace leaps into action, promising to take Palpatine into Jedi custody, dead or alive.

--Taken from The Complete Visual Dictionary




Because Mace, too, has an attachment. Mace has a secret love. Mace Windu loves the Republic.

Many of his students quote him to students of their own: "Jedi do not fight for peace. That's only a slogan, and is as misleading as slogans always are. Jedi fight for civilization, because only civilization creates peace."

For Mace Windu, for all his life, for all the lives of a thousand years of Jedi before him, true civilization has had only one true name: the Republic.

He has given his life in the service of his love. He has taken lives in its service, and lost the lives of innocents. He has seen beings that he cares for maimed, and killed, and sometimes worse: sometimes so broken by the horror of the struggle that their only answer was to commit horrors greater still.

And because of that love now, here, in this instant, Anakin Skywalker has nine words for him that shred his heart, burn its pieces, and feed him its smoking ashes.

Palpatine is Sidious. The Chancellor is the Sith Lord.

He doesn't even hear the words, not really; their true meaning is too large for his mind gather in all at once.

They mean that all he's done, and all that has been done to him—

That all the Order has accomplished, all it has suffered—

All the Galaxy itself has gone through, all the years of suffering and slaughter, the death of entire planets—

Has all been for nothing.

Because it was all done to save the Republic.

Which was already gone.

Which had already fallen.

The corpse of which had been defended only by a Jedi Order that was now under the command of a Dark Lord of the Sith. Mace Windu's entire existence has become crystal so shot-through with flaws that the hammer of those nine words has crushed him to sand.


Anakin blinked and rubbed his eyes again. Maybe he was still a bit flash-blind—the Korun Master seemed to be fading in and out of existence, half swallowed by a thickening black haze in which danced a meter-long bar of sunfire. Mace pressed back the darkness with a relentless straight-ahead march; his own blade, that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own: an oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once.

The shadow he fought, that blur of speed—could that be Palpatine?

Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts of fire, weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that Anakin could not truly see them—but he could feel them in the Force. The Force itself roiled and burst and crashed around them, boiling with power and lightspeed ricochets of lethal intent. And it was darkening.

Anakin could feel how the Force fed upon the shadow's murderous exaltation; he could feel fury spray into the Force though some poisonous abscess had crested in both their hearts.


Mace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it, he no longer truly existed as an independent being. Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center—

And let it fountain out again. He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith



As can be seen, Mace's own abilities were elevated for that one battle. If there is any doubt that Mace is not normally as powerful or fast as he was in that duel, another issue to consider is this: that Windu has fought many opponents without operating on the speed level he did against Sidious. Sidious fought so fast that Anakin could never even visually track his blows. Sidious similarly killed Saesee and Agen before they could react. Mace and Saesee have dueled one another before. How is it Mace was not faster than Tiin's eye could follow here, yet he could compete with Sidious, who blitzed Tiin?

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Mace has dueled evenly with Dooku before. Dooku was portrayed as roughly parallel to Anakin respective of their adroitness in Force Speed when they dueled one another in RotS. How is it Mace never moved faster than Dooku's eye could follow?

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Mace has fought equally with Sora Bulq. Bulq lost to Count Dooku. How is it Mace never moved faster than Bulq's eye could follow?

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Mace fought and drove back Asajj Ventress. Ventress has lost to Anakin, whose vision was too slow to follow Palpatine's strokes. How is it Mace never moved faster than Ventress' eye could follow?

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Mace dueled General Grievous, whom he only beat by exploiting Grievous' restricted mobility in that duel and then Force hurling him off the mag-lev train they fought on. How is it Mace never fought overwhelmingly faster than Grievous?


Kit's bulging black eyes indicated Palpatine. "They want to take him alive."

The words had scarcely left his mouth when something hit the train with sufficient force to whip everyone from one side of the car to the other, then back again. The Red Guards were just regaining their balance when the roof began to resound with the cadence of heavy, clanging footfalls, advancing from the rear of the train.

"Grievous," Mace grumbled.

Kit glanced at him. "Here we go again."

Hurrying into the vestibule between the two lead cars, they launched themselves to the roof. Three cars distant marched General Grievous and two of his elite droids, their capes snapping behind them in the wind, pulse-tipped batons angled across their barrel chests. Farther back, clamped by animal-like claws to the roof of the train, was the gunboat from which the frightful trio had been released.

Without pausing, Grievous drew two lightsabers from inside his billowing cloak. By the time they were ignited, Mace was already on and all over the cyborg, batting away at the two blades, swinging low at Grievous's artificial legs, thrusting at his skeletal face. The lightsabers thrummed and hissed, meeting one another in bursts of dazzling light. In a corner of Mace's mind he wondered to which Jedi Grievous's blades had belonged. Just as the Force was keeping Mace from being blown from the mag-lev's roof, magnetism of some sort was keeping the general fastened in place. For the cyborg, though, the coherence hindered as much as it helped, whereas Mace never remained in one place for very long.

Again and again the three blades joined, in snarling attacks and parries. Grievous was well trained in the Jedi arts. Mace could recognize the hand of Dooku in the general's training and technique. His strikes were as forceful as any Mace had ever had to counter, and his speed was astonishing. But he didn't know Vaapad—the technique of dark flirtation in which Mace excelled.

To the rear of the car, where Grievous's pair of MagnaGuards had made the mistake of pitting themselves against Kit Fisto, the Nautolan's blade was a cyclone of blazing blue light. Resistant to the energy outpourings of a lightsaber, the phrik alloy staffs were potent weapons, but like any weapon they needed to find their target, and Kit simply wasn't allowing that. In moves a Twi'lek dancer might envy, he spun around the guards, claiming a limb from both with each rotation: left legs, right arms, right legs...

The speed of the train saw to the rest, ultimately whisking the droids into the canyon like insects blown from the windscreen of a speeder bike.

The loss of his confederates was noted by whatever computers were slaved to Grievous's organic brain, but the loss neither distracted nor slowed him. His sole setting was attack. Successful at analyzing Mace's lightsaber style, those same computers suggested that Grievous alter his stance and posture, along with the angle of his parries, ripostes, and thrusts. The result wasn't Vaapad, but it was close enough, and Mace wasn't interested in prolonging the contest any longer than necessary.

Crouching low, he angled the blade downward and slashed, guiding it through the roof of the car, perpendicular to Grievous's stalwart advance. Mace saw by the surprised look in the cyborg's reptilian eyes that, for all his strength, dexterity, and resolve, the living part of him wasn't always in perfect sync with his alloy servos. Clearly, Grievous—onetime courageous commander of sentient troops—realized what Mace had done and wanted to sidestep, where General Grievous—current commander of droids and other war machines—wanted nothing more than to impale Mace with lunging thrusts of the paired blades.

Slipping into the gap made by Mace's saber, Grievous's left talon lost magnetic purchase on the roof, and the general faltered. Mace came out of his crouch prepared to drive his sword into Grievous's guts, but some last-instant firing of the general's cybersynapses compelled the cyborg's torso through a swift half twist that would have sent Mace's head hurtling into the canyon had the maneuver prevailed. Instead Mace leapt backward, out of the range of the slicing blades, and Force-pushed outward, just at the instant of Grievous's single misstep.

Off the side of the car the general went, twisting and turning as he fell, Mace trying to track the general's contorted plunge, but unsuccessfully. Had he fallen into the canyon? Had he managed to dig his duranium claws into the side of the car or grab hold of the mag-lev rail itself?

Mace couldn't take the time to puzzle it out. One hundred meters away, the gunboat retracted its landing gear and rose from the roof on repulsorlift power. Reckless shots from one of the pursuing gunships obliged the Separatist craft to skew, then dive, with the gunship following close behind.

--Taken from Labyrinth of Evil





Example after example of that sort could be elucidated on. In none of Mace's fights did he ever accelerate his movements to the degree that he did against Palpatine, because Vaapad has limits; Vaapad's limit is the darkness within the user. To further solidify this point, Palpatine killed Agen Kolar and Saesee Tiin before either could react, but another source even states that Palpatine killed Tiin, Kolar, and Fisto before Mace realized it happened, showing the difference in speed between Palpatine and Mace and showing that had Mace not tapped into a greater speed level/fighting state, he would have similarly been unable to match Palpatine's speed.


Before Mace realizes what has happened, Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto have fallen to Sidious's blade.

--Taken from The Complete Visual Dictionary

[Bearon]

The novel stated that Mace's powers were increased, sources stated that Mace failed to see Sidious' attacks, and Mace never moved that fast before. So no matter how you look at this, if Mace's fighting capabilities were never improved, he would have been cut down just as quickly as Saesee, Agen, and Kit were.





What's more, this amplification in speed that Mace evinced cannot be replicated anywhere else. If you fail to pay attention to context and prior history, it would appear that in any duel with any dark sider, Mace can simply apprehend the darkness of his enemy to more finely pronounce his own formidability, but this is not the case. Mace has, when describing Vaapad, referenced the "superconducting loop" of its powers, but as I said, Vaapad has limits. If Mace could simply equalize himself with any enemy he faces, why is it he lost to Kar Vastor, a dark sider on the dark side permeated world of Haruun Kal? Why is it, despite assuming a Vaapad stance against Kar and despite not holding back against him, Mace was beaten by Vastor? Why is it Mace later conceded that he could never defeat Kar in direct combat?


The lor pelek crouched and lowered one hand to the ground, digging in the leaf mold, his sweat-glistening chest heaving, breath pumping darkness into him and out again. Gathering rage. Gathering power. The shimmer around him had gone from red to black.

Mace shook his arms loose. "Rules?"

Vastor's reply was the snort of a hunting akk. Jungle rules. A burst of power launched the lor pelek as a human missile, clawing his way through the twilight toward the Jedi Master.

Jungle rules it is, then, Mace thought, and leapt to meet him in midair.


They collided with a crash that shook the jungle around them. The collision was not just of two human bodies, but of two node-channels of the Force: invisible energy crackled, and vivid blue gap-sparks arced from leaf to leaf in the canopy above. For a moment, they hung in the air, supported by power, grappling, tearing at each other's flesh. The akk dogs lunged and whirled and slashed the air with their tails. The guards clashed together their shields, roaring with ferocious animal exuberance.

Vastor seemed to be all teeth and claws and fierce snarling assault. Arms like girders of durasteel caught Mace in an unbreakable hug, pinning the Jedi's elbows to his creaking ribs. Mace answered swifter than thought with an instinctive head-butt that split the skin on one of Vastor's cheekbones. The lor pelek lowered his head to Mace's shoulder as though to snuggle in like a lover—then sank his needle teeth deep into Mace's neck, chewing for his carotid artery.

Mace jerked a knee up to slam the inside of Vastor's thigh; Vastor only grunted and bit down harder, twisting his head from side to side like an akk worrying off a tusker's leg. His jaw pressure on the artery was restricting its blood flow; billowing clouds of darkness gathered in Mace's brain—but when Mace fired the knee again, Vastor jerked his legs out of the way.

Mace's knee caught him a decimeter below the navel. This brought a sharper grunt and a snarl that vibrated in Mace's neck, but instead of withdrawing his knee for another strike, Mace dug it in harder, forcing Vastor's body away from his own. This created just enough space that Mace could slip one arm up between their chests, and could stab his stiffened fingers into the notch of Vastor's collarbone. And shove.

With a convulsive gasp of astonishment, the lor pelek released Mace's neck. Mace kept on shoving, jamming his fingers into Vastor's windpipe. Vastor gagged, and his massive arms loosened. They fell together, tumbling, and as Mace finally pushed Vastor off him he managed to sneak in a quick snapping kick to the point of Vastor's chin that sent the lor pelek whirling like a topspun ball.

Mace recovered his Force-touch in time to flip upright and land in a balanced crouch; Vastor landed on all fours, absorbing the shock as effortlessly as a vine cat.

They looked at each other.

Blood ran from the bite wound on Mace's neck, painting his shoulder and part of his chest scarlet, but it was only a trail, not a jet: the artery must have remained intact. A similar trail rolled from Vastor's split cheek and dripped from his jaw.

Neither man appeared to notice.

Vastor's growl resonated in Mace's chest. Not many men can break my grip. You won't do it twice.

Mace didn't answer. Vastor was probably right. He was suddenly, acutely aware that he hadn't slept since the night before the fight in the notch pass. The night when a bark-drunk Lesh had come to him in tears, to tell him what Kar and the Akk Guards would teach him, if he lived long enough. It seemed like years ago.

He wondered briefly if the lor pelek would have gone ahead and torn out his throat despite what he claimed Depa had told him, or if he would have settled for the strangle. He decided he could live without knowing the answer.

That is, if he lived at all.

Vastor stalked toward him on all fours. Was that Jedi fighting? Poking and pinching? A little jab to stop the big dog? I am not impressed.

Mace stood motionless except for the heaving of his chest. He knew already he could not match Vastor for raw power. With each breath, he stripped away another layer of restraint and inhibition. Another layer of serenity. He had to move his inner peace out of the way to let in the joy. The thrill. The sheer okay-why-not-let's-FIGHT. Because Vaapad was more than just a form of lightsaber combat. It was a state of mind.

Night had deepened upon the jungle, and around them glowvines began to pulse faintly. To use Vaapad now, out here, was incredibly dangerous—almost as dangerous as not using Vaapad. The ultimate answer for power is skill.

"Want to be impressed?" Mace said. "Let's see the impression my boot makes on your face."

Without warning, Vastor's stalk became a lightning lunge, fingers hooked like talons, his arms sweeping wide to close on Mace once more—but Mace wasn't there anymore. A slight sidestep and a weave of his head snuck him to the outside of Vastor's lunge, and his fist whipped backhand to snap Vastor in the base of the skull as he passed: a knockout blow.

But Vastor must have felt it coming; he pitched forward, rolling with the punch so that it flipped him end for end. He landed in perfect balance and sprang again, straight up; the kick Mace had aimed at his kidneys only grazed his calf muscle. He used the impact to whirl in the air so that he could fall upon the Jedi Master like a branch leopard taking a tusker.

But what he fell upon was Mace's fist, driven upward into his solar plexus by the combined power of the Force and nearly fifty years of Jedi combat training. Mace's hand sank in to the wrist, and Vastor's fighting snarl became an agonized struggle for breath. Mace used the Force to hurl him off and send him tumbling through the air to slam into the flank of an agitated akk dog. Eyes glazing, half stunned, the lor pelek slid bonelessly down the akk's armored ribs, and staggered as his feet skidded over gnarled roots.

Before he could find his balance, Mace was on him. "Impressed yet?"

Standing toe to toe, the top of Mace's head barely came to the level of Vastor's chin, and you could have tucked Mace's whole thick-muscled upper body inside Vastor's chest with room to spare. And even hurt, lurching drunkenly, Vastor still could whip his arms in blindingly fast raking slaps at Mace's head and wounded neck. But where Vastor's speed was blinding, Mace's was invisible. Not one of those slaps connected.

Before Vastor could even focus his eyes, Mace had hit him six times: two thundering hooks to his short ribs, a knee slamming hard into the same thigh he'd hit before, an elbow snapping up to the point of his chin, and two devastating palm strikes to either hinge of his jaw. An ordinary man would have been unconscious. Vastor seemed to be getting stronger.

Vastor fired another of those blinding slaps. This time, instead of ducking, Mace countered with a whirring hook that met the lor pelek's swinging arm directly on the nerve that ran up the inside of the biceps. Vastor threw the other even harder—which only made the inside of that arm connect that much harder with Mace's counterhook. Vastor's mighty arms spasmed and dropped limply to his sides.

"This is called Vaapad, Kar." A fierce light burned in Mace's eyes. "How many arms do you see?"

Then he hit Vastor twice in the nose before the lor pelek could even blink. Vastor howled in pain and raging disbelief, falling back against the akk dog's flank once more, twisting and turning to try to find some way to avoid the Jedi's flashing hands. Mace stayed with him, pinning him to the akk's flank, fists whirling through Vaapad flurries, striking not to disable or to kill, but instead to hurt: stinging flicks to soft tissue, smashing ears and nose, stabbing up under the chin.

The akk dog suddenly lurched away from them, giving Vastor half a meter of clearance. The lor pelek sprang sideways, diving away.

Mace let him go. "Go on and run, Kar. This is over. You lose. I'm the big dog here—"

Vastor turned his dive into a roll and spun to face the Jedi Master from one knee, and before Mace had even finished speaking the Force whirled around him and Mace found himself wrenched off the ground, hurtling backward through the air to slam against the smooth-barked gray trunk of a meter-thick lammas tree. The whole tree shivered with the impact, and a spiral galaxy birthed itself inside Mace's head.

He thought, I was wondering when we'd get to this part.

Vastor's face tightened. Strength must have been returning to his nerve-punched arms already, because he managed to raise one and gesture as though throwing a stone; Mace was whirled forward from the tree to crash against the skull of an astonished akk dog. The impact folded him over the dog's head and blasted the breath from his lungs; the dog's crown spines gashed Mace's abdomen, and when it tossed Mace aside with a twitch of its head like a Nymalian water-ox, his blood ran down the black outer shells of its eyes.

Jedi Padawans learn to counter Force kinesis before they even begin lightsaber training. Still in the air, Mace sensed the flow of power that held Vastor's grip upon him; with a sigh, he allowed his center—Vastor's point of Force contact—to relax and ground Vastor's power back into the jungle around them...

And that jungle came to life. A gripleaf trailer snaked down from above and seized one of Mace's ankles in its unbreakable clutch. His airborne tumble became a wide-swinging head-down arc.

Gripleaf trailers only grew tighter as their victim struggled, and their fibers were nearly as strong as durasteel cable; they could not be broken by mortal strength. This one squeezed his ankle, drawing blood with the edges of its sharp waxy leaves. Another trailer reached toward his other ankle, and from his upside-down vantage he could see a thick blade-thorned length of brassvine curving toward his neck. He almost reached into the Force for his lightsaber—

But that would be admitting defeat. Time to be clever.

He used the Force to shove the gripleaf trailer so that the arc of his swing sent him whirling out over the ring of dogs and men. One of the Akk Guards smirked at him as he swung overhead: "Big dog? More like little tusk-pig."

When his swing carried him back in, Mace reached down and grabbed the Akk Guard by the arm, yanking him into the air. Drawing upon the Force for a burst of strength, Mace whipped the astonished Guard up and over and used the edge of his razor-sharp shield to slice through the trailer before releasing him to flail helplessly through the air and crash into the jungle darkness.

Mace turned his own fall into a flip that landed him on an akk dog's shoulders. He bounded off into the air—

And Vastor's Force grip seized him again. Vastor was on his feet now, and his arms didn't seem hurt at all. His blood-smeared mouth spread wide in a howl of triumph as he yanked Mace through the multicolored glowvine-shaded night, pulling him in while he opened his arms for that lethal embrace.

Mace thought: Well, if you insist...

Instead of resisting or grounding the power of Vastor's Force grip, Mace added his own strength to it. The speed of his flight suddenly doubled; Vastor had only time to widen his eyes in dismay as Mace flipped headfirst in the air. The top of his head speared into Vastor's gut and drove the lor pelek to the ground as though he'd been hit by a concussion missile.

On the other hand, Vastor's stomach wasn't much softer than that lammas he'd slammed Mace into; the impact didn't do Mace's head a lot of good, either. Another spiral galaxy blossomed where the first had been as Mace rolled off him, lying on his back while he watched stellar clusters wheel inside his skull. Vastor lay beside him, making faint panting noises while he tried to pull air into his spasming chest.

Vastor's breath began to return in great whooping gasps, and Mace knew his time was running out. He shook the stars out of his head and reached down to his ankle to unwrap the severed gripleaf trailer. Limp now, dying, it was unresisting as an ordinary rope; Mace took one end in each fist, and as Vastor rolled over and gained his hands and knees, Mace slipped a loop of the trailer over the lor pelek's head from behind and tightened it around his throat.

Vastor straightened and his hands went to his throat, clawing at Mace's improvised garrote, but not even he was strong enough to break a gripleaf trailer with his bare hands. His face darkened, swelling with blood; the back of his neck bulged; veins writhed across his temples and forehead.

Ten seconds, Mace thought, hanging on, wedging his knees into Vastor's back. Ten seconds and out.

Vastor got one foot under him.

Mace swallowed, gasping for breath as he tried to tighten the trailer around the lor pelek's throat.

Pure will powered Vastor to his feet. He didn't even seem to notice the weight of a large Jedi Master hanging down his back.

Mace thought: Here it comes.

In an eyeblink, Vastor's grip shifted from the gripleaf trailer to Mace's wrists. He threw himself forward, bent at the waist, and with a surge of incredible strength yanked the Jedi Master over his head and slammed him bodily to the dirt.

The impact replaced the stars in Mace's head with billowing black nebulae; he'd never gotten his breath back properly after landing on the akk dog, and now he couldn't breathe at all. The jungle above faded into a black haze; through the darkness descending inside his skull, he barely caught a glimpse of Vastor leaping into the air to drop a body lam that would finish him. With a gasp, he rolled aside, and Vastor landed hard on the ground beside him.

Mace dizzily tried to pull himself up to his hands and knees; Vastor was still down, his hands clawing weakly at Mace's flanks. Mace pushed him off and made it to his knees. Vastor rolled onto his side, found a tree trunk, and pulled himself up it, leaning on it drunkenly.

Though Mace couldn't breathe—could barely see through the black-and-red haze inside his head—he could draw upon the Force to throw himself upright, and he lunged at Vastor, whirling, hands clasped together to deliver every erg of power at his command into one last thundering punch that lifted Vastor bodily off the ground, flipped him over backward, and dropped him on the back of his neck. Mace swayed, almost out on his feet. The jungle hazed in and out of focus. All he could clearly see was the lor pelek climbing to his feet.

Vastor was smiling.

Is that the best you have?

"I'm just—" Mace gasped for breath. His arms came up slowly; each one felt like it was made out of collapsium. "Just getting started—"

One of those open-handed slaps flashed out of the darkness; the next thing of which Mace was aware was a bell-like ringing in his ears, and the grip of Vastor's huge hand around his neck, holding him up off the jungle floor.

Mace's eyelids fluttered open. Vastor's blood-smeared grin was the only thing in the world.

Vastor growled, How many arms do you see?

Mace didn't answer.

He certainly didn't see the one attached to the hand that snuffed the world like a blown-out candle.


FROM THE PRIVATE JOURNALS OF MACE WlNDU



Vastor was willing to let Nick help me, and treat my more serious injuries with supplies from a captured medpac. He was willing to believe the battering he'd inflicted on me was nearly crippling. It wasn't far from the truth.

Nick was still simmering as he helped me to my feet, muttering under his breath a continuous stream of invective, characterizing Vastor as a "lizard-faced frogswallower," and a "demented scab-chewing turtlesacker" and a variety of other names that I don't feel comfortable recording, even in a private journal.

"That's enough," I told him. "I have gone to considerable trouble to keep us both alive, Nick. I'd prefer we stay that way."

"Oh, sure. Nice job on that." His voice was bitter, and he didn't want to meet my eyes.

I told him I was sorry about his hundred credits, and pointed out to him gently that no one had told him to bet on me.

He turned on me then, instantly furious, hissing savagely to keep his voice down, as the Akk Guards and the dogs were still milling about. "This isn't about credits! I don't care about the credits—" He stopped himself, blinking, and his familiar smile flickered briefly across his lips. "Shee. Did I really just say that? Wow. So okay, sure, that was a lie: I care about the creds. I care a lot. But that's not why I'm angry."

I nodded, and told him I understood: he was angry at me. He felt like I'd let him down.

"Not me," he said. "I mean, come on: Jedi are supposed to stand for something, aren't you? You're supposed stand up for what's right. No matter what." Angry at me as he may have been, he still swung his head under one of my arms and held it across his shoulders, so he could help me walk.

It was appreciated. Only as the adrenaline and concussion shock were wearing off did I begin understand what a beating I had taken; later, with access to the medpac's scanner, I would discover two cracked ribs, a severe ankle sprain from the gripleaf trailer, a moderate concussion, and some internal bleeding, not to mention the bite wound on my neck and an astonishing variety of scrapes and bruises.

As Nick helped me up onto the ankkox, I discovered what had made him so angry with me: more than anything else, it was that I'd declared we had been wrong to free the prisoners.

"I don't care what you say," he muttered darkly. "I don't care what Kar says. There were kids there. And wounded. I mean: those Balawai, they weren't evil. They were just people. Like us."

"Nearly everyone is."

"We did the right thing, and you know it."

It dawned on me then that Nick was proud of himself. Proud of what we had done. It may have been an unfamiliar feeling for him: that peculiarly delicious pride that comes from having taken a terrible risk to do something truly admirable. Of overcoming the instinct of self preservation: of fighting our fears and winning.

It is the pride of discovering that one is not merely a bundle of reflexes and conditioned responses; that instead one is a thinking being, who can choose the right over the easy, and justice over safety. The pride Nick took in this made me proud of him, too—though of course I could not tell him so. It would only have embarrassed him, and made him regret speaking at all.

I hope I never forget the fierce conviction on his face as he helped me climb the extended leg of the ankkox and clambered up onto its dorsal shell. "Just because Kar beat you like a rented gong doesn't mean he was right. Just because he won doesn't mean you were wrong to challenge him. I can't believe you'd ever say those things."

His answer came from within the curtained darkness of the howdah at the top of the curved shell.

"If you spend much time around us, Nick, you will learn..." Depa's voice was strong and clear and as sane and gentle as it has always been in my heart. "You will learn that Jedi do not always tell the truth."

Nick stopped, suddenly scowling as though he found himself unexpectedly deep in thought. "Don't always—hey..." he muttered suspiciously. "Hey, wait one second here—"

She pulled back the curtain once more, and pushed open the small swing gate in the rail. "Come on in. You look like you might want to lie down."

"I might," I admitted. "This hasn't been my best couple of days."

She took my hand to steady me as I stepped into the howdah, and she made room for me on the chaise. "I have to hand it to you, Mace," she said with a softly ironic smile. "You still take a beating as well as any man in the galaxy."

Nick's eyes bulged as though his head might explode. "I knew it!" He shook a fiercely triumphant fist in my face. "I knew it. I knew you could take him!"

I told him to keep it down, because Vastor and the Akk Guards were still moving through the trees nearby, and I had no idea how sharp Vastor's ears might be. I didn't tell him to shut up altogether because it wouldn't have done any good.

"I've got you figured. You hear me? I've got your Jedi butt scanned to the twelfth decimal point! I shoulda known you were gonna dive when you started in on Kar like that—you were spinning him up to make the confrontation more personal, like. The more you insulted him, the less he was gonna worry about taking anything out on me. And you kept on taunting him so that booting your Jedi can into next week felt so good that he basically forgave you for letting those Balawai go!"

I told him he was half wrong.

"Which half?"

Depa answered for me. "The part about letting Kar win."

She knows me so well.

"You mean he really beat you?" Nick couldn't seem to believe it. "He really, really beat you?"

"We share a bond in the Force now, Nick. Did it feel like I threw the fight?"

He shook his head. "It felt like you were a smazzo drummer's trap skin."

"As you said earlier: Vastor is a difficult man to lie to. He would have known if I was holding back. Then the beating would have been much worse, and he might very well have killed me. What I did was pick a fight I knew I couldn't win."

"Couldn't?"

"Vastor is...very powerful. Half my age and twice my size. Training and experience can compensate only up to a point. And he is naturally ferocious in a way that no Jedi can duplicate."

"You're telling me you twisted his nose like that, knowing he was gonna beat you so bad your whole family would bleed?"

I shrugged. "I didn't have to win. All I had to do was fight."


The growl came from a black shape that rose like corpse-fungus from among the bodies.

So, doshalo. Here we are. For the last time.

"Perhaps."

The shape smoked with power. More power than Mace had ever felt. And he was so tired. So hurt. The lightsaber wound in his belly radiated pain that scraped away his strength.

The shadow beckoned. Come on, then: jungle rules.

"On the contrary," Mace said slowly. "Jedi rules."

What are Jedi rules'?

"You don't need to know," Mace told him. "You're not a Jedi."

Vibroshields whined to life. I am waiting for you, Jedi of the Windu.

Mace extended a hand, and his lightsaber found it. He stood, waiting.

"You fear to attack me.

"Jedi do not fear," Mace said. "And we do not attack. As long as you stand in peace, so do I. You have just learned two of the Jedi rules. For what little good they will do you. You haven't been paying very close attention, Kar. And it's too late to start now. It's over."

Nothing is over! NOTHING. Not while we both live.

"This is another Jedi rule." Mace took a couple of steps to one side, to find a space of floor where he didn't have to fear tripping over a body. "If you fight a Jedi, you've already lost."

The dark shape came closer. Fine words from a man I've beaten before.

"The starfighters have been ordered off. The city will stand. They've surrendered to the Republic. We have no reason to fight."

Men like us are our own reason.

Mace shook his head. "This isn't a big dog thing. If I must, I will hurt you. Badly."

You can't bluff me.

"No, but I can kill you. Though I would rather not."

More Jedi rules?

Mace sagged. "Do you have a move to make? I'm too tired for this."

Sleep when you're dead, Vastor snarled, and leaped.

Ultrachrome flashed. Mace could have met him, blade to shields, but instead he slipped aside. He had no intention of fighting this man. Not here and now. Not anywhere. Not ever.

Vastor was younger, stronger, faster, and immensely more powerful, and he wielded weapons that could not be harmed by the Jedi blade. Mace couldn't win such a battle on his best day, and this day was far from his best: he was exhausted, badly wounded, and heartsick.

--Taken from Shatterpoint




The answer: Vaapad has limits. Mace cannot initiate a power expansion of the sort he employed against Sidious anytime he wants. The only reason he could contend with Palpatine is because Mace was heartbroken by Anakin's discovery of Darth Sidious' identity and rank in the Republic. Without that, Mace is not nearly as fast as he was during that duel. The amplification Mace was surged with against Sidious was available to him in that one duel and that one duel only.





Next point: Mace only fought as a perfect equal with Palpatine. The novel is very clear that Mace, even when his speed and combat efficiency are so acutely aggrandized and when investing his all into defeating Sidious, is still only an equal with Palpatine in a duel.


Anakin could feel how the Force fed upon the shadow's murderous exaltation; he could feel fury spray into the Force though some poisonous abscess had crested in both their hearts. There was no Jedi restraint here. Mace Windu was cutting loose.


There was a time when Mace Windu had feared the power of the dark; there was a time when he had feared the darkness in himself. But the Clone Wars had given him a gift of understanding: on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness and had learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared. He had learned that it is fear that gives the darkness power. He was not afraid. The darkness had no power over him. But—

Neither did he have power over it.

Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.

Impasse.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith



Another source even bears mention that Palpatine forced Mace back.


In the inner recesses of his private office, the Jedi confronted the Chancellor. Palpatine produced a lightsaber hidden in his sleeve and let the dark side flow through him. It granted him unnatural dexterity and speed—enough to quickly kill three Jedi Masters and force the mighty Mace Windu back.

--Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia



This proves that Mace is incontestably not a better duelist than Sidious regardless of what some may think.





Which leads us to the next point: If Mace isn't a more skilled duelist, how did he win? Setting aside the foregone conclusion that Palpatine allowed him to win, the novel shows that Windu won by exploiting Palpatine's fear which caused him to become distracted and slow down. Mace felt fear emanating around the office, which he believed was Palpatine's, and abused it by breaking the window, resulting in Palpatine hesitating when he stood near it for fear of falling down. This allowed Mace to land a blow that disarmed him.


Mace disengaged from the shadow's blade and leapt for the window; he slashed away the transparisteel with a single flourish. His instant's distraction cost him: a dark surge of the Force nearly blew him right out of the gap he had just cut. Only a desperate Force-push of his own altered his path enough that he slammed into a stanchion instead of plunging half a kilometer from the ledge outside. He bounced off and the Force cleared his head and once again he gave himself to Vaapad.

He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear. Easily, almost effortlessly, he turned the shadow's fear into a weapon: he angled the battle to bring them both out onto the window ledge. Out in the wind. Out with the lightning. Out on a rain-slicked ledge above a half-kilometer drop. Out where the shadow's fear made it hesitate. Out where the shadow's fear turned some of its Force-powered speed into a Force-powered grip on the slippery permacrete. Out where Mace could flick his blade in one precise arc and slash the shadow's lightsaber in half.

One piece flipped back in through the cut-open window. The other tumbled from opening fingers, bounced on the ledge, and fell through the rain toward the distant alleys below.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith



So Mace capitalized on the fear. However, the fear he felt was not Palpatine's; it was Anakin's. Sidious seemed to somehow project Anakin's fear out through himself (either that, or Mace's Force senses are incredibly inaccurate, but it makes no sense to me that Mace would simply "miss" in detecting whose fear it was but instead that Palpatine misdirected it).


In the Force, Mace could feel the monster inside Anakin Skywalker, a real monster, too real, one that was eating him alive from the inside out.

Fear.

This was the wound Anakin had taken. This was the hurt that had him shaking and stammering and too weak to stand. Some black fear had hatched like fever wasps inside the young Knight's brain, and it was killing him.


Because he is Mace Windu, within a second the man of sand is stone once more: pure Jedi Master, weighing coldly the risk of facing the last Dark Lord of the Sith without the chosen one—

Against the risk of facing the last Dark Lord of the Sith with a chosen one eaten alive by fear.

And because he is Mace Windu, the choice is no choice at all.

"Anakin, wait in the Council Chamber until we get back."


"For all your power, you are no Jedi. All you are, my lord," Mace said evenly, staring past his blade, "is under arrest."

"Do you see, Anakin? Do you?" Palpatine's voice once again had the broken cadence of a frightened old man's. "Didn't I warn you of the Jedi and their treason?"

"Save your twisted words, my lord. There are no politicians here. The Sith will never regain control of the Republic. It's over. You've lost." Mace leveled his blade. "You lost for the same reason the Sith always lose: defeated by your own fear."

Palpatine lifted his head. His eyes smoked with hate. "Fool," he said. He lifted his arms, his robes of office spreading wide into raptor's wings, his hands hooking into talons.

"Fool!" His voice was a shout of thunder. "Do you think the fear you feel is mine?"

Lighting blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him. Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him. And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source. Palpatine staggered, snarling, but the blistering energy that loured from his hands only intensified. He fed the power with his pain.

"Anakin!" Mace called. His voice sounded distant, blurred, as if it came from the bottom of a well. "Anakin, help me! This is your chance!"

He felt Anakin's leap from the office floor to the ledge, felt his approach behind—

And Palpatine was not afraid. Mace could feel it: he wasn't worried at all.

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith



But if Mace won by manipulating Palpatine's fear, how did he win if he was never afraid in the first place? And why would Palpatine not only exhibit misdirected fear from his own aural presence in the Force but also act as if he was genuinely afraid by hesitating and slowing down near the window ledge? Especially since doing this is precisely what costed him the duel as it gave Mace the opportunity to disarm him while Palpatine was hesitant? This to me seems like the greatest implication from the book that Palpatine had set it all up. While I suppose there could be varied interpretations, I see no legitimate reason why Sidious would do this except to purposely lose the duel while constituting the illusion to Mace and Anakin that his loss was real so as to consolidate sympathy from Anakin.





Next: Palpatine could have killed Mace with Lightning at any point. When Sidious started firing Lightning at Mace after losing his lightsaber, he generated so much power with his Lightning that Mace's blade was being contorted. The blade literally bent back toward Mace's face and would have slashed him if Palpatine continued. The book even goes so far to say that Vaapad is of no consequence; he just lacked the power to defend against it.


Lightning blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him. Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him. And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source.


Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face.


"You're the chosen one, Anakin," Mace said, his voice going thin with strain. This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade.


Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me—"

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith



With this, we can conclude that even granting that Mace could beat Palpatine in a duel, Palpatine could still kill him with Lightning if he so chooses. Pertaining to Mace deflecting Force Lightning back onto Palpatine, it is widely and incorrectly believed that Palpatine's deformations stemmed from this event, but this is untrue. Sidious had studied alchemical practices that adjusted his facial structure and mask him with the appearance of the face of Palpatine. The Lightning deflected onto Palpatine simply revealed the face that was already there.




As often as Plagueis maintained that the Rule of Two had ended with their partnership, the Muun remained the powerful one, and Palpatine the covetous one. Bane’s dictum notwithstanding, denial was still a key factor in Sith training; a key factor in being “broken,” as Plagueis put it—of being shaped by the dark side of the Force. Cruelly, at times, and painfully. But Palpatine was grateful, for the Force had slowly groomed him into a being of dark power and granted him a secret identity, as well. The life he had been leading—as the noble head of House Palpatine, legislator, and most recently ambassador-at-large—was nothing more than the trappings of an alter ego; his wealth, a subterfuge; his handsome face, a mask. In the realm of the Force his thoughts ordered reality, and his dreams prepared the galaxy for monumental change. He was a manifestation of dark purpose, helping to advance the Sith Grand Plan and gradually gaining power over himself so that he might one day—in the words of his Master—be able to gain control over another, then a group of others, then an order, a world, a species, the Republic itself.

--Taken from Darth Plagueis






That warm and human hand gave his shoulder a warm and human squeeze. "I do not fear your power, Anakin, I embrace it. You are the greatest of the Jedi. You can be the greatest of the Sith. I believe that, Anakin. I believe in you. I trust you. I trust you. I trust you."

Anakin looked from the dead hand on the ledge to the living one on his shoulder, then up to the face of the man who stood above him, and what he saw there choked him like an invisible fist crushing his throat. The hand on his shoulder was human. The face...wasn't.

The eyes were a cold and feral yellow, and they gleamed like those of a predator lurking beyond a fringe of firelight; the bone around those feral eyes had swollen and melted and flowed like durasteel spilled from a fusion smelter, and the flesh that blanketed it had gone corpse-gray and coarse as rotten synthplast. Stunned with horror, stunned with revulsion, Anakin could only stare at the creature. At the shadow. Looking into the face of the darkness, he saw his future.

"Now come inside," the darkness said.

After a moment, he did.





Anakin stood just within the office. Motionless. Palpatine examined the damage to his face in a broad expanse of wall mirror. Anakin couldn't tell if his expression might be revulsion, or if this were merely the new shape of his features. Palpatine lifted one tentative hand to the misshapen horror that he now saw in the mirror, then simply shrugged.

"And so the mask becomes the man," he sighed with a hint of philosophical melancholy. "I shall miss the face of Palpatine, I think; but for our purpose, the face of Sidious will serve. Yes, it will serve."

--Taken from Revenge of the Sith






"Always two there are"—not only master and apprentice, but persona and true face. Unmasked by deflected lightning during his duel with Mace Windu, the Sith Lord's true face is revealed to the world.

--Taken from The Complete Visual Dictionary





Last fact: Yoda is a better duelist than Mace. Nick Gillard, who was designated by Lucas to choreograph the duels in the movies and conversed with Lucas about character abilities, has stated twice that Yoda is superior to Mace.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5m2yIAxeBHA (5:28 to 5:35)


"We've not seen Mace fight yet, and we know that he's second only to Yoda."



http://web.archive.org/web/200511250428 ... 0711b.html


"Mace Windu's fighting abilities are second only to Yoda."



Yoda has also beaten Mace before.


Master Windu was also known within the Order for his unusual fighting style, one that he developed after studying the dueling styles of various lightsaber masters. His attacks consisted of relentless, unpredictable blows, like shots from an autoblaster. Master Windu himself remained perfectly balanced and centered. In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective.

--Taken from Power of the Jedi Sourcebook



These are canon facts. Whether Mace beat Palpatine or not, these points cannot be overlooked.





Two misconceptions I feel I should address is Lucas' remarks on the fight, one comment from the Revenge of the Sith commentary and another from The Making of Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith. Here is Lucas' first statement:


"Okay, well, this sequence always started out with Mace overpowering Palpatine, and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace, and Mace deflecting his rays with his lightsaber. And it always was that Anakin cut the lightsaber out of his hand. But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later, 'cause this is, it moved the point where Anakin turns down to this moment right here, and you can see now, that it's very clear that he's, he, he wants him to go on trial so he can pump him for information about how to get these powers."

--Taken from the Revenge of the Sith commentary



If you fail to pay attention to context, this sounds like Lucas said that Mace in fact did defeat Palpatine. However, you need to notice the comment as a whole. Lucas starts off by offering a description on a certain scene, but then he moves on to tell how he fitted details in with one another. But this is the distinction: He describes a sequence of events as the viewer sees them at first, giving a brief background on what sequence in particular he is talking about, but then his focus shifts from what the audience sees to what the characters' intentions are and what they experience and think. The initial comment about Mace overpowering Palpatine only addresses what we as the audience see on-screen; it does not disclose character mindsets, intentions, or motivations. Only the second half of Lucas' statement deals with those character-driven factors by pointing out that he intended for Palpatine to feign weakness as he fired Lightning at Mace to force Anakin into a decision, which also overwrites Lucas' initial explication that Palpatine intended to kill Mace with Lightning; instead, this quote actually confirms that Sidious did in fact feign weakness during his Lightning assault because Lucas revised his original outline for the scene from "tries to destroy Mace" to "pretends to be weak." So from the context of simply a perceivable sequence, no, this does not constitute proof that Lucas stated that Mace did really defeat Palpatine, and from the context of a sequence that was changed, no, this does not constitute proof that Lucas stated that Palpatine meant to kill Mace with Lightning.



The other input from Lucas I should cover is the following:


The actors rehearse their dressing gowns and then adjourn for final costume adjustments, while Lucas and Knoll continue to examine the footage. When Palpatine easily strikes down Mace's three associate Jedi at the outset of the scene, Knoll says, "Look at this—Mace brought the B-team!"

"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat-up, he could've beat the Emperor."

--Taken from The Making of Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith



Typically, what is surmised from this quote is that Mace can, under his own power, contend with Sidious with no contextual details or circumstantial factors influencing the duel. I disagree with this translation. All Lucas says is that either Yoda or Mace are required to oppose Sidious on anything resembling even terms. He does not say anything else than that. The novelization of RotS very plainly explicated that Mace's fighting abilities were demonstrably upgraded on account of the very specific circumstances preceding and during the duel. With that said, let me ask this question: Does Lucas' statement refute what the novel narrates? Not at all. You do have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor, because only Yoda possesses the intrinsic power to match him and only Mace possesses a mastery of Vaapad that could weaponize a trauma of the kind that Windu was subjected to.

Sora Bulq, by Mace's estimation, never mastered Vaapad as Bulq succumbed to the dark side; Depa Billaba's mastery of it is similarly questionable given her inability to reconcile her Jedi beliefs with her cognizance of the Dark, the fact that she was comatose by the time of RotS notwithstanding. Mace was the only true master of Vaapad and therefore the only one who could be consumed by it so thoroughly as to be able to challenge Sidious. No other Jedi in the Order could even see Sidious move, if the latter chose to exercise his speed; Agen Kolar, Saesee Tiin, and Anakin Skywalker, all of whom are among the fastest Jedi in the Order, couldn't perceive Palpatine. Only Yoda could under his own power. Mace could too provided he derived skill from a circumstantial resource related to Vaapad's attributes; therefore, Mace could compete with the Emperor, as Lucas said. Lucas' statement is no less true just because Mace had to be temporarily amped by a unique application of Vaapad to match Sidious' blade; only Mace could have exploited the power amplification that was available to him. No other Jedi in the Order knew Vaapad, and no other Jedi in the Order had a battle-useful darkness in them that would assist them against a Sith Lord. Hence, only Mace and Yoda can compete with the Emperor, and Lucas' statement is not incompatible with the novelization's account of the event.

To end the question of Lucas' opinion on the matter, here is a source, the Homing Beacon editorials from starwars.com, where Lucas leaves the matter open to debate.

http://web.archive.org/web/200603230419 ... on139.html



A last point respective to the duel itself, in the direct sequel novel to Revenge of the Sith, Palpatine, in his musings, notes that all of his plans for leading Anakin to the dark side had been successful. Anakin aiding him in the holding office, choosing Palpatine over the Jedi, was a crucial moment in his fall. It is entirely possible this indicates that Palpatine had set the entire incident up, but this is not conclusive as it never specifies when or what plans, only that the plans succeeded.


Darth Sidious had had most of his beloved Sith statues and ancient bas-reliefs removed from his ruined chambers in the Senate Office Building, where four Jedi had lost their lives and one had been converted to the dark side. Relocated to the throne room, the statues had been placed on the dais, the sculptures mounted on the long walls. Swiveling his throne, Sidious gazed at them now.

As some Jedi had feared from the start, Anakin had been ripe for conversion when Qui-Gon Jinn had first brought him to the Temple, and for well over a decade all of Sidious's plans for the boy had unfolded without incident.

--Taken from Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader





Having gone through all of this, I think my opinion is obvious: I believe Sidious allowed Mace to win to persuade Anakin to help him. The events are too convenient. In the movie, Palpatine communicated with Anakin through the Force while Anakin was in the Council Chamber, goading him to come to the chancellor's office. In the novel, Palpatine sets up a recording device which he alters to make it sound as if he was the victim. Also in the novel, Palpatine notes that it is good that Windu, Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto are coming, just as it is good that Anakin is coming. In the novel, Mace won by exploiting a fear in Palpatine that never existed in him at all. All of it just leads me to believe that Palpatine restricted himself purposefully. If you disagree, I can understand. This is only my opinion, not a fact. Do I believe this is a credible and logical assessment of the occurrences? Obviously, or else I wouldn't believe them. But the fact is that there is no fact on this. I don't believe we will ever really know without a doubt who won that duel, as I doubt it will ever be stated in any canon source or by anyone from Lucas Licensing. But we can draw a reasonable conclusion from it, and this is mine. However, simply because we have no irrefutable fact on whether Sidious lost on purpose or not, we do still have to acknowledge the facts we do have that surround that ambiguity, such as the facts I covered above. The fact is that even if Mace did win legitimately without Sidious intending that outcome, it speaks nothing of Mace's standard abilities because of the amplification he received for that one duel, a resource he does not have access to under normal circumstances.

[Bearon]

Sorry I had to split the above posts into 2 sections. Apparently the limit is 60,000 words per post.

[Land of wisdom]

In Prime.

Fair enough, I missed that part. Dooku still loses.

I agree like I said the sith tire quick and even Anakain was ok even at his young self and very little experience

[Bearon]

Fair enough, I missed that part. Dooku still loses.

I agree like I said the sith tire quick and even Anakain was ok even at his young self and very little experience

Very little experience? He had the entire Clone Wars and years under Obi Wan as experience. He was a fully fledged Jedi Knight and he was powerful enough in his own right to probably beat most Jedi sitting on the council at the time. Besides that Dooku had just dueled 2 of the best duelists of their time Obi Wan and Anakin and Anakin was enhanced by force rage because of Dooku's Dun Mooch. Also Makashi Dooku's preferred Lightsaber form is weak against Djem So because of the raw strength it possesses. If you read the RotS novelization it states that Anakin was striking Dooku's Lightsaber with the force of a meteor which is my opinion is not an exaggeration or a metaphor given that in the old Clone Wars cartoon Anakin as a Padawan was able to crack stone with the sheer force of his Lightsaber strikes. Anakin would be a good opponent for Windu I believe but because of the advantages he held at that time against Dooku the outcome was nearly predetermined. A rematch without the advantages he held against Dooku the first time? It would be a tossup. The same as a straight out duel with Mace.

[Idzequitch]

I agree like I said the sith tire quick and even Anakain was ok even at his young self and very little experience

Very little experience? He had the entire Clone Wars and years under Obi Wan as experience. He was a fully fledged Jedi Knight and he was powerful enough in his own right to probably beat most Jedi sitting on the council at the time. Besides that Dooku had just dueled 2 of the best duelists of their time Obi Wan and Anakin and Anakin was enhanced by force rage because of Dooku's Dun Mooch. Also Makashi Dooku's preferred Lightsaber form is weak against Djem So because of the raw strength it possesses. If you read the RotS novelization it states that Anakin was striking Dooku's Lightsaber with the force of a meteor which is my opinion is not an exaggeration or a metaphor given that in the old Clone Wars cartoon Anakin as a Padawan was able to crack stone with the sheer force of his Lightsaber strikes. Anakin would be a good opponent for Windu I believe but because of the advantages he held at that time against Dooku the outcome was nearly predetermined. A rematch without the advantages he held against Dooku the first time? It would be a tossup. The same as a straight out duel with Mace.

Now that would be a duel I'd be interested to see. I still stand by my belief that Master Windu could and would beat Darth Tyranus, but Windu against Anakin? I'd have to give Windu the ever so slightest edge, but that would be a hell of a duel.

[Bearon]

Very little experience? He had the entire Clone Wars and years under Obi Wan as experience. He was a fully fledged Jedi Knight and he was powerful enough in his own right to probably beat most Jedi sitting on the council at the time. Besides that Dooku had just dueled 2 of the best duelists of their time Obi Wan and Anakin and Anakin was enhanced by force rage because of Dooku's Dun Mooch. Also Makashi Dooku's preferred Lightsaber form is weak against Djem So because of the raw strength it possesses. If you read the RotS novelization it states that Anakin was striking Dooku's Lightsaber with the force of a meteor which is my opinion is not an exaggeration or a metaphor given that in the old Clone Wars cartoon Anakin as a Padawan was able to crack stone with the sheer force of his Lightsaber strikes. Anakin would be a good opponent for Windu I believe but because of the advantages he held at that time against Dooku the outcome was nearly predetermined. A rematch without the advantages he held against Dooku the first time? It would be a tossup. The same as a straight out duel with Mace.

Now that would be a duel I'd be interested to see. I still stand by my belief that Master Windu could and would beat Darth Tyranus, but Windu against Anakin? I'd have to give Windu the ever so slightest edge, but that would be a hell of a duel.

Wait you think Anakin is a better duelist then Dooku? 0-o That's laughable. He held a number of advantages in his duel with Dooku not the least of which was his raw power in the force and raw physical power two advantages that are most useful against a Makashi user. But in skill and knowledge in the force? It's not even close. I say that Mace would beat Anakin barely, Anakin would beat Dooku barely without any advantage and Dooku would beat Mace barely. It's like rock paper scissors in my mind as Dooku is generally more skilled and powerful in the force then Windu while WIndu is sort of an all rounder that tops Anakin in every category but raw power ( both physically and in the force ) but because of how Vaapad works and how emotional Anakin is Mace would have the advantage their and it has already been previously stated what advantages Anakin holds over Dooku.

Besides that can you explain to me why Mace couldn't manage to land a single blow on Grievous when they were fighting on top of the maglev while Dooku has been shown to beat him numerous times easily?

[Idzequitch]

Now that would be a duel I'd be interested to see. I still stand by my belief that Master Windu could and would beat Darth Tyranus, but Windu against Anakin? I'd have to give Windu the ever so slightest edge, but that would be a hell of a duel.

Wait you think Anakin is a better duelist then Dooku? 0-o That's laughable. He held a number of advantages in his duel with Dooku not the least of which was his raw power in the force and raw physical power two advantages that are most useful against a Makashi user. But in skill and knowledge in the force? It's not even close. I say that Mace would beat Anakin barely, Anakin would beat Dooku barely without any advantage and Dooku would beat Mace barely. It's like rock paper scissors in my mind as Dooku is generally more skilled and powerful in the force then Windu while WIndu is sort of an all rounder that tops Anakin in every category but raw power ( both physically and in the force ) but because of how Vaapad works and how emotional Anakin is Mace would have the advantage their and it has already been previously stated what advantages Anakin holds over Dooku.

Look, I respect Dooku, I really do, but yes, Anakin, despite having considerably less experience than Dooku is the better fighter. In a one on one duel, Anakin could beat probably every single Jedi except perhaps Yoda, Windu, and Kenobi. Also, even if Anakin does use the Form that Dooku is weakest against, if Dooku were really the master swordsman you claim him to be, he would be prepared to face any Form, especially considering how likely a battle with Anakin eventually became.

Besides that can you explain to me why Mace couldn't manage to land a single blow on Grievous when they were fighting on top of the maglev while Dooku has been shown to beat him easily?

Was it not Dooku who taught Grievous how to wield a lightsaber? Who better, then, to know his weaknesses and defeat him in combat? (See: Kenobi beating Anakin on Mustafar) Grievous is good with his lightsabers, and obviously killed many Jedi to get them, so he's a fierce opponent for any Jedi. Dooku simply knew how to beat him because he was his teacher.

[Bearon]

Wait you think Anakin is a better duelist then Dooku? 0-o That's laughable. He held a number of advantages in his duel with Dooku not the least of which was his raw power in the force and raw physical power two advantages that are most useful against a Makashi user. But in skill and knowledge in the force? It's not even close. I say that Mace would beat Anakin barely, Anakin would beat Dooku barely without any advantage and Dooku would beat Mace barely. It's like rock paper scissors in my mind as Dooku is generally more skilled and powerful in the force then Windu while WIndu is sort of an all rounder that tops Anakin in every category but raw power ( both physically and in the force ) but because of how Vaapad works and how emotional Anakin is Mace would have the advantage their and it has already been previously stated what advantages Anakin holds over Dooku.

Look, I respect Dooku, I really do, but yes, Anakin, despite having considerably less experience than Dooku is the better fighter. In a one on one duel, Anakin could beat probably every single Jedi except perhaps Yoda, Windu, and Kenobi. Also, even if Anakin does use the Form that Dooku is weakest against, if Dooku were really the master swordsman you claim him to be, he would be prepared to face any Form, especially considering how likely a battle with Anakin eventually became.

Besides that can you explain to me why Mace couldn't manage to land a single blow on Grievous when they were fighting on top of the maglev while Dooku has been shown to beat him easily?

Was it not Dooku who taught Grievous how to wield a lightsaber? Who better, then, to know his weaknesses and defeat him in combat? (See: Kenobi beating Anakin on Mustafar) Grievous is good with his lightsabers, and obviously killed many Jedi to get them, so he's a fierce opponent for any Jedi. Dooku simply knew how to beat him because he was his teacher.

He is knowledgeable in all forms but up to this point he had no idea what Obi Wan or Anakin's forms were. He believed their forms to be Ataru when he faced them aboard the Invisible Hand as that was the only form that they demonstrated on Geonosis. They had kept their form choice hidden until nearly the middle of the duel before revealing that they were experts at Soresu and Djem So one of the most offensive and defensive forms which allowed them to put Dooku on the defensive and even still he regained the upper hand after moments of analyzing their styles and nuancing his own form to best match theirs. Honestly I'm doubtful Anakin could have won had he not had the advantages he did and if he'd faced Dooku simply one on one.

It was but Grievous's in combat is unpredictable as he used mixed styles of every Lightsaber form. Even Dooku would not be able to know what Grievous would do next and could only rely on his intuition with the force and instantaneous reactions. Regardless Dooku knowing his student works the same way, Grievous would have had intimate knowledge of how Dooku's Lightsaber form worked and would have taken advantage of that just as Dooku did with his knowledge about Grievous. There is not a determinable advantage on either's part and while Dooku admitted that Grievous was a worthy opponent that could most likely defeat nearly any Jedi on the council he was no match for him. And while I might concede that Dooku's knowledge on Grievous gave him a slight advantage over the cyborg it's not large enough to explain why Mace was unable to land a blow when Grievous couldn't even move his body at the time and Grievous in return has never laid a blow on Dooku or won a single one of their matches.

Edit: Also as a side note Obi Wan could not beat Anakin in any other circumstances and I actually consider it PIS that he beat him even when Anakin wasn't thinking clearly.

[Land of wisdom]

Your right there but Mace was able to hold back Palpatine and when he did tire Mace would be able to end it. This is because most sith tire quickly and Palpatine is even quicker then some. They tire as they focus on rage, anger and energy that can run out quickly and sith are often extra focused and cannot summon their rage meaning not as much power. Also Dooku even at his prime relied more on his troops than his skill.

Sith do not lose energy faster then the Jedi. Dooku has dueled multiple opponents on several different occasions and has handled them easily even though Makashi isn't especially suited for fighting multiple opponents. Palpatine feigned weakness so he could draw Anakin to the Dark Side and while I'm willing to admit Windu had a large amp for that fight that allowed him to be near Palpatine's level Palpatine could have ended the fight with the force anytime he wanted as seen in the scene where he did just that with Sith Lightning. The degradation of his face was him taking the mask he used while Chancellor off not because he was harmed in any way.

Mace Windu wins easily. He bested Palpatine (Who, incidentally, was given the first name Sheev in a recent book) in combat, dying only because he was blindsided by the betrayal of an ally.
Palpatine is Dooku's Master, and I don't think anyone will deny that Palpatine is more powerful than Dooku.
It stands to reason that if Windu can defeat Palpatine, he could definitely beat Dooku. (Barring Anakin cutting his arm off or some similar idiocy).
Also, keep in mind that Windu is about 50 years old in Episode III, while Dooku, though spry for his age, is over 80. He would not last in a long battle.

I can link a post I stumbled upon a while back that might help clear up the Windu and Sidious fight I'll post it in just a moment.

Now as for primes Dooku is still in his prime around 80 because his force powers had grown significantly by that point and any physical failings he could shore up well enough with the force. As it was Dooku trained Grievous and is has been stated through multiple sources that Grievous could never land a blow on Dooku and Grievous is able to land 200 strikes per second. Mace Windu when fighting Grievous on a maglev whilst having the advantage of movement while Grievous was rooted to his own spot by his own magnetics Mace dueled with Grievous and was unable to land a single blow. Dooku managing to beat Grievous easily and Mace not even landing a blow when the cyborg couldn't even land a blow shows a lot when it comes to the gap in their skill I think.

I know they don't lose it faster than jedi but they need to focuse on anger. I have read EU stuff about sith being happy and not being able to use the force and using sith alchemy to sustain health causing serious tiring