ASoIAF/Game of Thrones general Discussion Thread

[Holy Tedalonia]

nothing more than that being the reason they could get at max von syndow.

I figured the NK just didn't know where he was. The Children of the Forest's magic obscured the sight of the NK, but Bran gave the location away.

If it was the magic that protected Bran from the NK, then Bran would have never made it to the tree lair.

[Fedel]

I never saw the Night King or the White Walkers as a faction in and of itself, personally. I saw it more as an unstoppable tide that would be the end of Westeros as a result of the character's own pride and hubris. Something to show that for all of their striving and sacrifice and betrayal, it all meant nothing in the end in the face of the inevitable.

I mean if your a tv show out of content from the books, keeping with the themes is the least of your concern. I mean JRR Martin is known to take bloody forever for writing the books.

Then they shouldn't have focused on it so much as a plot point to begin with imo. Nearly a quarter of the entire show was dedicated to them.

[Infected Mushroom]

I always thought that his mark business was massively contrived.

"You can see the past, but nobody can see you. Except for the NK, he can see you. And interact with you by touching you. And he always knows where you are now. Oh, and the cave's magical barrier doesn't work against him anymore. And he can cross the Wall now also."

It's like in one of those schoolyard games that small children play where one of them eventually ragequits because the other is making up BS rules to give himself advantages.

I think the 3ER and the NK are like polar opposites of each other. 3ER's powers are inherently tied to Life, while the NK's powers are inherently tied to Death. They're locked in this multimillenial cat and mouse game, where the the NK has hunted the 3ER across the ages. Probably picked up a few tricks along the way. Most 3ER are trained, and experienced before they touch the history of the NK, Bran wasn't, and screwed up.

Imagine if Bran died, all the humans would die (just like how the NK's death causes all the dead to cease to exist)

[Andsed]

I do like though when the Night King looked at Jon like "Oh you wana have a one on one? Nah fuck you, take an army, im gona go kill your brother after staring at him seductively"

If I were an evil necromancer in a fantasy setting, I'd totally do the "ARISE, MY MINIONS" shtick when being confronted by the hero/-es too. You have this one power, you better show it off in the most pimptastic way possible.

Indeed. Looking cool is always top priority.

[Baltenstein]

nothing more than that being the reason they could get at max von syndow.

I figured the NK just didn't know where he was. The Children of the Forest's magic obscured the sight of the NK, but Bran gave the location away.

It did look as if he had guards posted outside the cave though. Those Wights were lying unter the snow dormantly and only sprung into action once Bran and the others arrived. So I guess he knew where the cave was, but he just couldn't enter it.

[Holy Tedalonia]

I mean if your a tv show out of content from the books, keeping with the themes is the least of your concern. I mean JRR Martin is known to take bloody forever for writing the books.

Then they shouldn't have focused on it so much as a plot point to begin with imo. Nearly a quarter of the entire show was dedicated to them.

True, I totally agree.

I was like that battle was entertaining but to see the night king just kind of get midget stabbed to death in his first near victory is kinda anticlimactic.

[Fedel]

Yeah. This season will likely go down as a 6 ( decent ) for me unless they pull some real Machiavellian shit.

[Baltenstein]

Btw, who else was disappointed when Sam reverted to being the little gibbering coward he had been way back during Season 1? Edd gets killed after saving him, he immediately turns tail and runs away. Later we see him crying and screaming while being dogpiled under the undead, I think Jon actually sees him, hesitates for a second and then goes "Meh, fuck that" before running off, lol

[Holy Tedalonia]

Btw, who else was disappointed when Sam reverted to being the little gibbering coward he had been way back during Season 1? Edd gets killed after saving him, he immediately turns tail and runs away. Later we see him crying and screaming while being dogpiled under the undead, I think Jon actually sees him, hesitates for a second and then goes "Meh, fuck that" before running off, lol

That scene where Samwell Tarly just watches his friend die and autistically runs away is the probably the most cringiest and silliest thing I’ve seen so far in the seasons that is completely run by HBO and taking no influence from the books.

yeah, but it makes sense for Jon as it was his job to kill the night king. Sam has no excuse really.

[Holy Tedalonia]

Yeah. This season will likely go down as a 6 ( decent ) for me unless they pull some real Machiavellian shit.

I told my grandma that, but she seemed to think Cersei v Dream team would be entertaining

[Ifreann]

Hind sight is 20/20

It is 20/20 but I'm wondering WHY from a writing point of view, to do it that way.

Imagine if Frodo went on a quest to destroy the One Ring because he believed that if Sauron's forces got the One Ring, he would return to terrorise the world.

However, WITH HINDSIGHT he would have known that in fact Sauron only has a chance to get the Ring at all because he left Hobbiton. He didn't know it at all but IN FACT Hobbiton was protected by God and neither Sauron nor his minions EVER had a chance to go there at all.

The story all worked out of course, Frodo left Hobbiton, Sauron nearly got the Ring but lost. Happy Ending. But then again... WHY the strange plot device????

...

It's the sort of the same thing here. The heroes are trying to undo a threat that never existed except for their own actions motivated to stop the said threat.

No dragon, no Long Night... really?

No, not really. The Night King didn't need a dragon to breach the Wall.

---

The show doesn't give the impression at any point that the wall is impenetrable.

Jon Snow climbed over it, remember?

I don't know how much it's mentioned in the show, but in the books it's believed that the wall has spells woven into its foundations to keep out the WW. So while the living can cross the wall at will, the dead cannot.

Clearly not so. In the very first season the dead were in Castle Black, on the south side of the wall. Maybe the Night King himself and his Blue Man Group couldn't have crossed while the wall was intact, but with a numberless army of the tireless dead that is a very solvable problem.

[Infected Mushroom]

Yeah. This season will likely go down as a 6 ( decent ) for me unless they pull some real Machiavellian shit.

I told my grandma that, but she seemed to think Cersei v Dream team would be entertaining

Cersei Lannister is a way more interesting character than the Night King.

do not hang me for saying so

[Holy Tedalonia]

I told my grandma that, but she seemed to think Cersei v Dream team would be entertaining

Cersei Lannister is a way more interesting character than the Night King.

do not hang me for saying so

More interesting, yeah. Just not “Oh crap if we do this we are all going to die”. Imagine if the hero saved the world from a uninteresting but powerful super villain, and then goes and defeats mediocre but interesting bad guy.

[Holy Tedalonia]

https://www.vox.com/culture/2019/4/30/18522955/game-of-thrones-season-8-battle-winterfell-military

Seems like even military strategists disagree with the battle plan in season 8

Also:

Team White Walkers immortalized moment in life, when they walked into winterfell:
“You thought Reservoir Dogs, I thought Backstreet Boys when they came around the corner. Or maybe it’s NSYNC: They were just there to make Justin Timberlake look good.”

[Baltenstein]

I told my grandma that, but she seemed to think Cersei v Dream team would be entertaining

Cersei Lannister is a way more interesting character than the Night King.

do not hang me for saying so

As an individual character? Definitely. Thematically? That's where things get problematic. As I stated earlier, the NK represents "the big picture" - the menace from beyond time that threatens to eradicate all life. Despite this threat slowly rising on the horizon, the mortal players keep bashing heads over who gets to sit on an uncomfortable iron chair, and over whose daddy did what to whom, laughably insignificant mundanities in the greater scheme of things. This is where Martin did things differently than Tolkien - when Sauron started gathering his forces, everybody on Team Good immediately got together - even if they didn't like each other very much, like the Elves/Dwarves and Rohan/Gondor - to discuss what is to be done. Had Martin written LotR, the good guys probably still would have been busy arguing and trying to steal the Ring from each other when Sauron began his grand invasion.
With the path D&D have chosen however, it turns out that the NK isn't the big picture at all - he is just another baddie of the week, like the Wildlings (before they became allies with Jon), the Ironborn, the Slave Masters and the Boltons. In fact, strictly in terms of devoted episodes, some of the aforementioned players actually took longer to defeat than the WW. The big picture, it turns out, actually IS about who gets to sit on the Iron Throne after all.
I guess it makes some sort of sense, considering they named the series "A Game of Thrones" instead of "A Song of Ice and Fire", but I hope it's not the direction Martin intented for the books.

[Bloodshade]

https://www.vox.com/culture/2019/4/30/18522955/game-of-thrones-season-8-battle-winterfell-military

Seems like even military strategists disagree with the battle plan in season 8

Also:

Team White Walkers immortalized moment in life, when they walked into winterfell:
“You thought Reservoir Dogs, I thought Backstreet Boys when they came around the corner. Or maybe it’s NSYNC: They were just there to make Justin Timberlake look good.”

The thing with the Living Army is that none of them were competent military strategists. All the real smart military guys like Tywin, Stannis, Arryn and Robb are dead.

Still, D&D could've simply just added a scene detailing the battle plan and the problems they faced in forming a competent one due to ego, lack of experience, stubbornness and so on.

I think the biggest problem is that it felt like D&D were the ones coming up with this flawed battle plan, not Jon, Dany or anyone else, and so that's probably why many people are criticizing it. At least with the Battle of the Bastards, it felt like it was clear that Jon's incompetence and emotion, coupled with Ramsay's experience as a general, lead to the near defeat of the Stark army. While people still do criticize the tactics, it's nowhere near as controversial as the Battle of Winterfell.

[Holy Tedalonia]

https://www.vox.com/culture/2019/4/30/18522955/game-of-thrones-season-8-battle-winterfell-military

Seems like even military strategists disagree with the battle plan in season 8

Also:

Team White Walkers immortalized moment in life, when they walked into winterfell:
“You thought Reservoir Dogs, I thought Backstreet Boys when they came around the corner. Or maybe it’s NSYNC: They were just there to make Justin Timberlake look good.”

The thing with the Living Army is that none of them were competent military strategists. All the real smart military guys like Tywin, Stannis, Arryn and Robb are dead.

Still, D&D could've simply just added a scene detailing the battle plan and the problems they faced in forming a competent one due to ego, lack of experience, stubbornness and so on.

I think the biggest problem is that it felt like D&D were the ones coming up with this flawed battle plan, not Jon, Dany or anyone else.

Yeah, agreed. Although I would say they put their best General by far, Tyrion in the catacombs to sits on his ass, Sansa, a arguably more useless character for the battle stay out until she had to go into the catacombs when things were getting rough, Tyrion could have been in Sansa’s position and barked orders or do something.

If anything was considered something stupid that the military strategists failed to decide, was that Dothraki cavalry. In no way, could that had been useful to anyone. I even said mid tv show (I’m not a military strategist) “They are using those Dothraki all wrong.”

[Platypus Bureaucracy]

Btw, who else was disappointed when Sam reverted to being the little gibbering coward he had been way back during Season 1? Edd gets killed after saving him, he immediately turns tail and runs away. Later we see him crying and screaming while being dogpiled under the undead, I think Jon actually sees him, hesitates for a second and then goes "Meh, fuck that" before running off, lol

Oh, yeah, I forgot about that amid everything else, but I was really peeved at the time.

Still, it could be all part of the plan. We'll have to see how he deals with that next episode.

[Tarsonis]

It is 20/20 but I'm wondering WHY from a writing point of view, to do it that way.

Imagine if Frodo went on a quest to destroy the One Ring because he believed that if Sauron's forces got the One Ring, he would return to terrorise the world.

However, WITH HINDSIGHT he would have known that in fact Sauron only has a chance to get the Ring at all because he left Hobbiton. He didn't know it at all but IN FACT Hobbiton was protected by God and neither Sauron nor his minions EVER had a chance to go there at all.

The story all worked out of course, Frodo left Hobbiton, Sauron nearly got the Ring but lost. Happy Ending. But then again... WHY the strange plot device????

...

It's the sort of the same thing here. The heroes are trying to undo a threat that never existed except for their own actions motivated to stop the said threat.

No dragon, no Long Night... really?

No, not really. The Night King didn't need a dragon to breach the Wall.

---

I don't know how much it's mentioned in the show, but in the books it's believed that the wall has spells woven into its foundations to keep out the WW. So while the living can cross the wall at will, the dead cannot.

Clearly not so. In the very first season the dead were in Castle Black, on the south side of the wall. Maybe the Night King himself and his Blue Man Group couldn't have crossed while the wall was intact, but with a numberless army of the tireless dead that is a very solvable problem.

Those guys turned on the other side of the wall. I think at that point the idea was less magic and more zombie virus, I.e killed by a white walker, you become a wight. IIRC they died north of the wall and turned south of the wall.

[Ifreann]

No, not really. The Night King didn't need a dragon to breach the Wall.

---

Clearly not so. In the very first season the dead were in Castle Black, on the south side of the wall. Maybe the Night King himself and his Blue Man Group couldn't have crossed while the wall was intact, but with a numberless army of the tireless dead that is a very solvable problem.

Those guys turned on the other side of the wall. I think at that point the idea was less magic and more zombie virus, I.e killed by a white walker, you become a wight. IIRC they died north of the wall and turned south of the wall.

So the Night King could have sent his army over, under, around, or through the wall, dragon or no dragon.

[Holy Tedalonia]

Those guys turned on the other side of the wall. I think at that point the idea was less magic and more zombie virus, I.e killed by a white walker, you become a wight. IIRC they died north of the wall and turned south of the wall.

So the Night King could have sent his army over, under, around, or through the wall, dragon or no dragon.

I still don’t see why they cant attack the nights watch gates. Given how the wildlings could with their giants

[Tarsonis]

So the Night King could have sent his army over, under, around, or through the wall, dragon or no dragon.

I still don’t see why they cant attack the nights watch gates. Given how the wildlings could with their giants

Cause the wildlings weren’t dead.

[Tarsonis]

Those guys turned on the other side of the wall. I think at that point the idea was less magic and more zombie virus, I.e killed by a white walker, you become a wight. IIRC they died north of the wall and turned south of the wall.

So the Night King could have sent his army over, under, around, or through the wall, dragon or no dragon.

No it’s basically a magical barrier they couldn’t cross. The ones that turned south of the wall never actually crossed the wall.

[Ifreann]

So the Night King could have sent his army over, under, around, or through the wall, dragon or no dragon.

I still don’t see why they cant attack the nights watch gates. Given how the wildlings could with their giants

He probably could have.

---

So the Night King could have sent his army over, under, around, or through the wall, dragon or no dragon.

No it’s basically a magical barrier they couldn’t cross. The ones that turned south of the wall never actually crossed the wall.

The one that was taken to King's Landing wasn't turned south of the wall.

[Tarsonis]

I still don’t see why they cant attack the nights watch gates. Given how the wildlings could with their giants

He probably could have.

---

No it’s basically a magical barrier they couldn’t cross. The ones that turned south of the wall never actually crossed the wall.

The one that was taken to King's Landing wasn't turned south of the wall.

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you got me there.