ASoIAF/Game of Thrones general Discussion Thread

[Infected Mushroom]

The hero pulling an asspull and defeating the big bad in a 1v1 is a cliche.

Game of Thrones has sadly become very predictable and generic fantasy. It became the thing it originally did not want to be.

The show is going to go two ways. Basically how Infected Mushroom said, or the leaks will be true. Either way, it’s gonna suck. I just hope the death of GoT is swift and painless, so we can move on.

Defeating the big bad in a 1 v 1 is a cliche. And so, presumably, is multiple people working together to defeat the bad guy. And so is talking the bad guy down. And so is using a subtly foreshadowed ability, skill, or item to achieve victory. Winning through and getting a happy ending is a cliche. A victory won at significant cost but which still seems broadly positive (perhaps because the characters have grown and are richer or wiser for it, or the world is better for going through the fire) is cliche. A bittersweet ending that's more bitter than sweet (perhaps because there's only one small positive in what is otherwise a tragedy) is also cliche. A downer ending is cliche.

Basically, endings are cliche. Things should continue forever, lest someone mindlessly vomit up the narrative c-word.

An asspull is an example of poor writing (an unforeshadowed element abruptly introduced). It's not nearly specific enough to be a cliche. A particular kind of asspull might be a cliche.

One begins to wonder if Martin has stalled because he's written a series that, like all fiction, has to end in one of a few ways and there are people who will not be happy with any of them. These seem to be people who started reading a series about ice zombies and dragons and are now appalled by the idea that the climax might involve those things.

I was thinking of the type where Jon gets wounded (probably in the knee). Cut to No Music (for extra drama) and distorted echoes as the Wights and the humans battle all around him. Night King advancing in slow motion, looking all intimidating.

Its dragged out unnecessarily. Some people realise "its all over." Jon remembers some wise words from some moment earlier in the season.

And then there is some distraction... allowing Jon to at the last minute somehow grab a weapon and impale the Night King through the head.

Some Targaryen Victory music plays as all of the Wights start turning into dust (its inconsistent with previous seasons in that the effects of the chain destruction are much more dramatic but whatever).

...

I'm thinking of some variation of the "fumble for the weapon" thing. Either that or someone really far away throws him an ice spear at the last minute which he then uses to headshot the Night King.

[Infected Mushroom]

Also...

At some point next season, Cersei will be "talked down" like a DBZ villain.

Before this happens, Cersei's "bad antagonist" persona will need to be played up. Probably in the first few episodes there will be some scenes where Cersei illogically orders some massive slaughters throughout the kingdoms. It will make NO SENSE at all from the point of view of someone wanting to secure power but it will be done anyways. Fans will debate endlessly about how the motivation doesn't line up but the point is to show that Cersei is beyond redemption and to "remind" the audience that this here... is the new "Ramsay (even though this is completely unnecessary and somewhat insults the audience's intelligence)".

There will be some scene where the Golden Company has all the main characters cornered and ready to be finally all defeated. Cersei will stand up and gloat, make some grand speech like Cell from DBZ except Lannister style (a variation of the "I gave you all a chance to surrender but you didn't and will now all die. I would like to show you mercy, I even UNDERSTAND where you're all coming from but unfortunately... it is almost with regret that I shall have to kill you all now).

And then Jon, will make some kind of grand speech that turns all of the GC against Cersei. Some "revelation" mixed with some rhetoric and evidence that makes the GC go... "We should back the Targs instead." This will be spoke in some grand speech with a determined self-righteous face on Jon as he talks down his opponents. The GC will switch sides and destroy most of the Lannister hosts.

The speech will also make NO SENSE if you analyse it closely (kind of like how Littlefinger got "owned" at Winterfell even though it made little sense). It will also be completely unnecessary and just set up for drama. Meaning that Jon could have just won at the start but somehow pretended to lose to increase the stakes.

However... Cersei will escape only to be killed later in a very predictable manner later (probably by Jaime).

[Anywhere Else But Here]

Some of that is certainly clumsy. I guess we'll find out if you're right in a year.

As for Cersei and the Night King...what, in your view, would be a non-cliched way to deal with the zombie army and tie up the Civil War plot?

[The Huskar Social Union]

Honestly no idea, though i just hope jaime is the one who kills her.

[The Huskar Social Union]

Oh do you folks want me to do a poll about anything? Like the next season is not out till next year so we have a long wait.

[Ethel mermania]

i am not spoilering this as none of this has happened yet, so it is all hypothetical, and i probably put way to much thought into this



O’tay, this is how I end it

Winter keeps coming on, Lannisters and targaryeans do not agree to work together but dany and her troups do go and help the north. Slowly inevitably as winter keeps descending on the north, the armys of the undead under the white walkers keesp going south winning battles, however as the season goes on the battles go get tougher as the men of both north and south share their knowledge of the powers of fire, obsidian, and valerian steel against the armys of the undead. Eventually as the northerners fall back and refugees start flooding south, the army’s of the lannisters find out they have to fight the undead or just be run over and die. As both northern and southerners turn to fight the undead (I would start this as a battle that starts between targaryans and lannisters and ends up as humans v white walkers) they start to cooperate at lower levels. The white walkers are still winning, but are being slowed, as they start to approach kings landing.

Finally the seasons start to turn and the beginning of spring comes. As spring comes and the temperatures warm, the bodies of the dead start to decompose again and literally start falling apart (including the blue dragon verizon), this happens during the approach to kings landing (as foreshadowing), a final battle is fought at the gates of the city but the outcome this time turns in favor of the humans, half the humans die on all sides, (sorry IM Jamie, bron and tyrion (but not cersei) bite it here in a heroic death) all the undead get burned, ¾’s the white walkers die, the rest retreat north. As the humanity starts to recover, first cooperating… slowly they then they start to squabble as to who should rule.

The last episode ends , with the lannisters and targaryans splitting apart with and the closing shot is the targaryans once again preparing for war with dany who is obviously pregnant on her throne in dragonstone, with jon standing next to her.

[Escade]

Also...

At some point next season, Cersei will be "talked down" like a DBZ villain.

Before this happens, Cersei's "bad antagonist" persona will need to be played up. Probably in the first few episodes there will be some scenes where Cersei illogically orders some massive slaughters throughout the kingdoms. It will make NO SENSE at all from the point of view of someone wanting to secure power but it will be done anyways. Fans will debate endlessly about how the motivation doesn't line up but the point is to show that Cersei is beyond redemption and to "remind" the audience that this here... is the new "Ramsay (even though this is completely unnecessary and somewhat insults the audience's intelligence)".

There will be some scene where the Golden Company has all the main characters cornered and ready to be finally all defeated. Cersei will stand up and gloat, make some grand speech like Cell from DBZ except Lannister style (a variation of the "I gave you all a chance to surrender but you didn't and will now all die. I would like to show you mercy, I even UNDERSTAND where you're all coming from but unfortunately... it is almost with regret that I shall have to kill you all now).

And then Jon, will make some kind of grand speech that turns all of the GC against Cersei. Some "revelation" mixed with some rhetoric and evidence that makes the GC go... "We should back the Targs instead." This will be spoke in some grand speech with a determined self-righteous face on Jon as he talks down his opponents. The GC will switch sides and destroy most of the Lannister hosts.

The speech will also make NO SENSE if you analyse it closely (kind of like how Littlefinger got "owned" at Winterfell even though it made little sense). It will also be completely unnecessary and just set up for drama. Meaning that Jon could have just won at the start but somehow pretended to lose to increase the stakes.

However... Cersei will escape only to be killed later in a very predictable manner later (probably by Jaime).

Ugh, I agree with this. This is why close analysis or rewatches sometimes make you think, "What were they thinking? Or why is this part so ridiculous."

[Genivaria]

Honestly no idea, though i just hope jaime is the one who kills her.

They called him King-Slayer with contempt, they called him Queen-Slayer with reverence.

[Anywhere Else But Here]

My library finally put an end to their Storm of Swords shenanigans, so I'm listening to it now. The prologue POV guy is basically the realisation of every incel's darkest fantasy. Really can't wait for this one to die (all the prologue POVs die, right?).

[The Huskar Social Union]

My library finally put an end to their Storm of Swords shenanigans, so I'm listening to it now. The prologue POV guy is basically the realisation of every incel's darkest fantasy. Really can't wait for this one to die (all the prologue POVs die, right?).

Ah Chett, that loon.

[Anywhere Else But Here]

Ugh, I've remembered that Roy Dotrice is an appalling narrator. "So I'll do Tyrion as Welsh, Jaime exactly the same way, except sometimes I'll throw in a dash of French for no discernible reason. Everyone else can sound like a senile old man or a complete dimwit. Who. Leaves. Really. Long. Gaps. Between. His. Words. This, incidentally, is my usual reading style. I read one word at a time like I'm five years old, not varying my tone according to context or mood, so I can fully suck the life from action scenes and the humour from the funny bits."

Anyway, Bran sat in a room and thought wolfy things. Arya sat on a horse and fell asleep and thought wolfy things. Catelyn sat in a room and thought motherly and daughterly things then wrote a letter*. Davos sat on a rock and did some introspecting about whether or not he wanted to die, then decided on balance that he didn't, because if he did, the size of this cast might become manageable and the plot could go somewhere. Jaime sat in a boat thinking about how he definitely doesn't want to fuck Brienne.

Dany also sat on a boat while some old dude repeated the word 'um' over and over, occasionally punctuated by bits of interesting exposition about the Targaryens. Then she sat in her room and got molested (incidentally, book!Jorah is a creep and isn't Iain Glen at all so I'm not sure if I'm even supposed to care about him.) Jon walked into a tent and probably sat down before listening to Mance tell tall tales about being a master of disguise.

Tyrion walked from one room to another, and talked to his dad, who isn't Welsh or even Franco-Welsh. Sansa also walked from one room to another. This was fine though because she got to listen to Olenna 'No-Bullshit' Tyrell talk and just generally be the best character ever.

I'm like five hours into this damn book and basically nothing has actually happened yet.

*Also, apparently Rob got wounded. I'm sure that's the worst that'll happen to him in this book.

[The Valyria Empire]

Honestly, I don’t understand why people think Storm of Swords is the best in the series. Even though Feast for Crows was about side characters, they at least got to do a lot of different stuff. Especially Jaime.

Either way, I like all the books, but I think SOS’ biggest issue is that it’s too long.

[Infected Mushroom]

Ugh, I've remembered that Roy Dotrice is an appalling narrator. "So I'll do Tyrion as Welsh, Jaime exactly the same way, except sometimes I'll throw in a dash of French for no discernible reason. Everyone else can sound like a senile old man or a complete dimwit. Who. Leaves. Really. Long. Gaps. Between. His. Words. This, incidentally, is my usual reading style. I read one word at a time like I'm five years old, not varying my tone according to context or mood, so I can fully suck the life from action scenes and the humour from the funny bits."

Anyway, Bran sat in a room and thought wolfy things. Arya sat on a horse and fell asleep and thought wolfy things. Catelyn sat in a room and thought motherly and daughterly things then wrote a letter*. Davos sat on a rock and did some introspecting about whether or not he wanted to die, then decided on balance that he didn't, because if he did, the size of this cast might become manageable and the plot could go somewhere. Jaime sat in a boat thinking about how he definitely doesn't want to fuck Brienne.

Dany also sat on a boat while some old dude repeated the word 'um' over and over, occasionally punctuated by bits of interesting exposition about the Targaryens. Then she sat in her room and got molested (incidentally, book!Jorah is a creep and isn't Iain Glen at all so I'm not sure if I'm even supposed to care about him.) Jon walked into a tent and probably sat down before listening to Mance tell tall tales about being a master of disguise.

Tyrion walked from one room to another, and talked to his dad, who isn't Welsh or even Franco-Welsh. Sansa also walked from one room to another. This was fine though because she got to listen to Olenna 'No-Bullshit' Tyrell talk and just generally be the best character ever.

I'm like five hours into this damn book and basically nothing has actually happened yet.

*Also, apparently Rob got wounded. I'm sure that's the worst that'll happen to him in this book.

I remember those really old Harry Potter tapes. OMG it was just one reader the whole way and he never varied his voice or had any expression whatsoever.

[The Valyria Empire]

I've never understood the appeal of the audio books. Like, there's nothing quite like the feeling of holding the book in your hands (or tablet, but still applies) and turning the page to what's next.

Anyway, in other Ice & Fire discussion, Preston Jacobs has a new theory of Qohrin Half-Hand going on. So, here's a link for this interested: Part 1 Part 2

Spoilers, of course.

[Anywhere Else But Here]

I've never understood the appeal of the audio books. Like, there's nothing quite like the feeling of holding the book in your hands (or tablet, but still applies) and turning the page to what's next.

Anyway, in other Ice & Fire discussion, Preston Jacobs has a new theory of Qohrin Half-Hand going on. So, here's a link for this interested: Part 1 Part 2

Spoilers, of course.

Audiobooks can be really handy, if the narrator's good; I listen to them while I do the housework and what have you. Beyond that, a great narrator can add a hell of a lot to the experience if they have a good range of voices and a sense of comedic and dramatic timing. I don't think I'd even have finished the First Law series if I hadn't listened to Steven Pacey's reading. As it is, it's probably my favourite grimdark series, in large part thanks to the narration.

Unfortunately, Roy Dotrice is neither good nor great.

[Anywhere Else But Here]

First half of ASOS done just as things were starting to happen. Now I need to wait for part two to become available.

Anyway, Tywin turned into Winston Churchill and there was sudden lesbianism (which I'm astonished didn't make it into the show).

[Bearon Uncensored]

Has anybody read "A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms?"

If so, what did you think of it?

[Ethel mermania]

A dance of spring by 2027, huzzah??

https://www.bustle.com/p/when-is-winds- ... 470039/amp

[The Huskar Social Union]

First half of ASOS done just as things were starting to happen. Now I need to wait for part two to become available.

Anyway, Tywin turned into Winston Churchill and there was sudden lesbianism (which I'm astonished didn't make it into the show).

The best kind, truly.

A dance of spring by 2027, huzzah??

https://www.bustle.com/p/when-is-winds- ... 470039/amp

Wont come out till 2077, then the nuclear apocalypse begins and all the copies will be in a factory full of zombies.

[Anywhere Else But Here]

First half of ASOS done just as things were starting to happen. Now I need to wait for part two to become available.

Anyway, Tywin turned into Winston Churchill and there was sudden lesbianism (which I'm astonished didn't make it into the show).

The best kind, truly.

I think I very nearly used those exact words myself.

Anyway, I'm halfway through part 2 and gosh is this approaching Brandon Sanderson levels of pacing.

Part One: People Sit and Think in Rooms and Basically Nothing Happens

Part Two: Everything Happens and All of the People Die

I assumed, since the first two seasons of the show mapped pretty much perfectly onto the first two books, that the Red Wedding would take place near the end of ASOS, with most or all of the season 4 material waiting till book 4. Instead, we seem to have had half the big season 4 stuff already. So I can only assume the next two books are going to be a meandering lot of nothing.

[Starblaydia]

I can only assume the next two books are going to be a meandering lot of nothing.

Mmmmpretty much.

[The Valyria Empire]

The best kind, truly.

I think I very nearly used those exact words myself.

Anyway, I'm halfway through part 2 and gosh is this approaching Brandon Sanderson levels of pacing.

Part One: People Sit and Think in Rooms and Basically Nothing Happens

Part Two: Everything Happens and All of the People Die

I assumed, since the first two seasons of the show mapped pretty much perfectly onto the first two books, that the Red Wedding would take place near the end of ASOS, with most or all of the season 4 material waiting till book 4. Instead, we seem to have had half the big season 4 stuff already. So I can only assume the next two books are going to be a meandering lot of nothing.

I’m one of those weird guys who loves Feast for Crows. It’s all about side stories like what’s going on in Dorne and the Iron Islands.

While some argue that nothing gets done on a grand scale the personal story of those characters is fantastic. Arys Oakheart, Breinne, Jaime, Cersei, plus Sansa and Arya are finally interesting to read about, etc.

Also yeah, they split up Book 3, cause it’s so huge, between seasons 3 & 4. A Feast for Crows is full of small moments that really make the book interesting. Even the least best chapter with Areo has some things you can pick up if you read carefully.

[Anywhere Else But Here]

And I've finished Storm of Swords. It's kind of typical of the book at this point that the epilogue is 99% pointless development of a doomed character and 1% "ZOMG zombie!Catelyn!"

The last proper chapter was the same, being mostly "Isn't snow lovely?" and a tiny bit "Yeah, LF's responsible for literally all the things that have gone wrong, now he's going to opportunistically murder this woman and blame the musician somehow."

Stannis is suddenly cool now, although he seemed to throw all that Inspector Javert stuff out with no regard for his own characterisation. He's like "Come attach yourself to my doomed cause and be my Lord of Winterfell" and Jon's like "I'm a man of the Night's Watch, though" and Stannis is like "Don't worry, bros before oaths also set your dad's gods on fire, 'kay?".

Also, Jon was totally going to do it until Ghost showed up. Why are all the duty-bound men in this series going OOC?

Anyway, book 4 is available to be checked out now, but I have a long list of audiobooks to get through and I think I need to cleanse my ears with a competent narrator or two. Still, I ought to be caught up on the series by the end of the year.

[Ethel mermania]

And I've finished Storm of Swords. It's kind of typical of the book at this point that the epilogue is 99% pointless development of a doomed character and 1% "ZOMG zombie!Catelyn!"

The last proper chapter was the same, being mostly "Isn't snow lovely?" and a tiny bit "Yeah, LF's responsible for literally all the things that have gone wrong, now he's going to opportunistically murder this woman and blame the musician somehow."

Stannis is suddenly cool now, although he seemed to throw all that Inspector Javert stuff out with no regard for his own characterisation. He's like "Come attach yourself to my doomed cause and be my Lord of Winterfell" and Jon's like "I'm a man of the Night's Watch, though" and Stannis is like "Don't worry, bros before oaths also set your dad's gods on fire, 'kay?".

Also, Jon was totally going to do it until Ghost showed up. Why are all the duty-bound men in this series going OOC?

Anyway, book 4 is available to be checked out now, but I have a long list of audiobooks to get through and I think I need to cleanse my ears with a competent narrator or two. Still, I ought to be caught up on the series by the end of the year.

Zombie Catlyn, is probably my least favorite thing in the books, I am glad the series dropped that nonsense.

Sad to say you have plenty of time, till the series starts up again.

[Infected Mushroom]

I’m watching The Terror

It has Mance Rayder and Edmure Tully as officers on a ship to the Arctic. Anyone else seen this?

*Please no spoil