ASoIAF/Game of Thrones general Discussion Thread

[Charellia]

In what way is it a philosophical treatise?

it is a philosophical treatise against trusting government blindly and thinking justice will always prevail, it is also a treatise on Betrayal...

That hardly qualifies as a philosophical treatise. A philosophical treatise would require a far more substantial argument. ASoIAF is a truly excellent commentary on human nature and government, but it cannot be compared to the works of somebody like Locke.

[Infected Mushroom]

it is a philosophical treatise against trusting government blindly and thinking justice will always prevail, it is also a treatise on Betrayal...

That hardly qualifies as a philosophical treatise. A philosophical treatise would require a far more substantial argument. ASoIAF is a truly excellent commentary on human nature and government, but it cannot be compared to the works of somebody like Locke.

maybe...

but i think it has far more to say about life and how things work than Locke...

[Charellia]

That hardly qualifies as a philosophical treatise. A philosophical treatise would require a far more substantial argument. ASoIAF is a truly excellent commentary on human nature and government, but it cannot be compared to the works of somebody like Locke.

maybe...

but i think it has far more to say about life and how things work than Locke...

That's true. Locke was an idealist. ASoIAF draws more from the ideas of thinkers like Machiavelli. But the reason ASoIAF is not really a philosophical work is that it offers no proof of what it is trying to claim. It is only a hypothetical example of just how bad things can go.

[Infected Mushroom]

By the way, I've just noticed something.

Are there any paintings or sculptures in the ASoIAF universe? Is Westeros not a very artistic place (with all of those nobles, does not one collect or endorse any Michael Angelos? Is this the wrong time period? I thought medieval nobles had halls with lots of paintings)?

At least with what's shown in the series thus far on HBO, I've yet to see a single work of art anywhere. The Red Keep doesn't seem to have a single painting. What's the deal with that?

[Reploid Productions]

May I introduce you to the honorable Lord Eddard of House Stark? Can anybody legitimately say that he was a bad guy?
To the heiress(?) to the Sapphire Island, Lady Brienne of Tarth? Depending on your opinion possibly also his Grace Robb of House Stark, King in the North, King of the Trident?
Also,

his Grace Tommen of House Baratheon-Lannister, King on the Iron Throne, isn't a particularly bad person.

The Starks may not have been bad, but they were incredibly fucking stupid and deserved to die for their total incompetence.

Yeah no, that's bullshit. But assuming it to be true, doesn't change the fact that both are "good guys" which is the only thing I (currently) claimed them to be in reaction to Newcrest ColdSiver's post.

Tommen is just a little kid really, he's fine so far but he might grow up to become another Joffrey.

Even if that is very unlikely, considering we know a bit of Joffrey's behavior at that age, and they are miles apart, it still doesn't change the fact that currently if you'd take him as he is now, he's a good guy. A puppet for sometimes less good causes, but he himself is a totally good guy.

I'll agree with you that Brienne was a good person (again rather stupid, though. Yes, she swore an oath to Catelyn, but to

return the Starks most valuable prisoner to the Lannisters for no benefit whatsoever

is nothing short of idiocy).

More like following orders properly, and keeping promises you gave to people. If you want to call that idiocy, I hope I'll be a good idiot.

Brienne never once questioned Cat's decision about Jaime. In that way she's honorable to a fault, even more so than Lord Eddard.

She definitely is honorable, but I am curious of what made you make the comparison?

May I introduce you to the honorable Lord Eddard of House Stark? Can anybody legitimately say that he was a bad guy?

Cersei Lannister.

[Red emphasis mine]

Cersei Lannister.

Eh, Cersei can go sodomise herself with a sharpened stick.

That as well.

Eh, Cersei can go sodomise herself with a sharpened stick.

Is that what she calls her brother now?

Heh

The Starks may not have been bad, but they were incredibly fucking stupid and deserved to die for their total incompetence. Tommen is just a little kid really, he's fine so far but he might grow up to become another Joffrey. I'll agree with you that Brienne was a good person (again rather stupid, though. Yes, she swore an oath to Catelyn, but to

return the Starks most valuable prisoner to the Lannisters for no benefit whatsoever

is nothing short of idiocy).

Joffery was

cutting open cats to see unborn kittens at Tommen's age.

Tommen is not showing even the barest hint of the cruelty that Joffery demonstrated at a young age.

Brienne was a sworn sword, just following orders. It was Catelyn's decision and Catelyn's mistake.

The Starks were not really all that stupid or at all incompetent; they are simply honorable (in Ned's case I'd say moral) to a fault.

Ned's main mistake was trusting Littlefinger, who in the books atleast had helped Ned ALOT and gave Ned little reason to distrust him. Ned was operating under the assumption Baleish was just doing whatever was best for Catelyn out of his infatuation with her.

Ned served as a decent hand-of-the-king (not as good as Tywinn obviously).

Robb really couldn't of predicted Walder was just going to shit all over guest right. There is also a slight implication that his infatuation with Jeyne Westerling and subsequent quick marriage to her was not a decision he made with a clear mind; a throw-away line mentions the Westerlings are known for brewing, among other things, fertility potions, abortive potions, and love (!) potions. It is also very strongly implied that the Westerlings planned for Robb to fall in love with/marry Jeyne as part of Twyin's plan to turn Lord Walder to his side.

Granted this point is irrelevant in the show since Jeyne is replaced by a completely different character.

Also, people are talking about good guys, and not mentioning Davos Seaworth? He's probably the most straight-up moral person in the series.

On Joffrey: Yep.
Brienne: Agreed.
As for Eddard: Agreed. Also

He indirectly created the Brotherhood without Banners, which also can be seen as good guys á la Robin Hood.

Robb:

I didn't remember the Westerlings being mentioned as poitionbrewers.....

but yes, I agree.
As for Davos: He definitely is one. It's just that being a Starkist(?) those were the first characters I came to think of.

The Starks were not really all that stupid or at all incompetent; they are simply honorable (in Ned's case I'd say moral) to a fault.

Ned's main mistake was trusting Littlefinger, who in the books atleast had helped Ned ALOT and gave Ned little reason to distrust him. Ned was operating under the assumption Baleish was just doing whatever was best for Catelyn out of his infatuation with her.

Ned served as a decent hand-of-the-king (not as good as Tywinn obviously).

No, Ned's main mistake was

telling Little Miss Murderous Bitch that he knew she was fucking her brother and that none of her kids had a legitimate claim to the Iron Throne. He knew what Cersei was like. He knew what the Lannisters in general were like. He was an idiot, and paid the price for his idiocy.

Nope, still goes under "honorable", as he thought he was either allowing her to flew or face the trials sooner or later. He really couldn't expect her to murder Robert.

Robb really couldn't of predicted Walder was just going to shit all over guest right. There is also a slight implication that his infatuation with Jeyne Westerling and subsequent quick marriage to her was not a decision he made with a clear mind; a throw-away line mentions the Westerlings are known for brewing, among other things, fertility potions, abortive potions, and love (!) potions. It is also very strongly implied that the Westerlings planned for Robb to fall in love with/marry Jeyne as part of Twyin's plan to turn Lord Walder to his side.

Forget the whole marriage thing, Robb wouldn't have even needed to

see Walder Frey and try to forge an alliance if he hadn't been stupid enough to execute Rickard Karstark and lose half his fucking bannermen with a single swing of his sword. He was an idiot, and he paid the price for his idiocy.

And instead appear to be a weak king, who can't even uphold his own commands?

Joffery was

cutting open cats to see unborn kittens at Tommen's age.

Tommen is not showing even the barest hint of the cruelty that Joffery demonstrated at a young age.

Brienne was a sworn sword, just following orders. It was Catelyn's decision and Catelyn's mistake.

The Starks were not really all that stupid or at all incompetent; they are simply honorable (in Ned's case I'd say moral) to a fault.

Ned's main mistake was trusting Littlefinger, who in the books atleast had helped Ned ALOT and gave Ned little reason to distrust him. Ned was operating under the assumption Baleish was just doing whatever was best for Catelyn out of his infatuation with her.

Ned served as a decent hand-of-the-king (not as good as Tywinn obviously).

Robb really couldn't of predicted Walder was just going to shit all over guest right. There is also a slight implication that his infatuation with Jeyne Westerling and subsequent quick marriage to her was not a decision he made with a clear mind; a throw-away line mentions the Westerlings are known for brewing, among other things, fertility potions, abortive potions, and love (!) potions. It is also very strongly implied that the Westerlings planned for Robb to fall in love with/marry Jeyne as part of Twyin's plan to turn Lord Walder to his side.

Granted this point is irrelevant in the show since Jeyne is replaced by a completely different character.

Also, people are talking about good guys, and not mentioning Davos Seaworth? He's probably the most straight-up moral person in the series.

I really think Stannis is one of the most flawed characters in the series, and Davos kind of trues to make up for that. Stannis seems to have the most stress out of all the "kings," even though he's the one with the most legit claim.

For us the reader, yes. For Cersei's kids, they have it (unless they became aware of their father when I missed it). Also technically the northern claim, even though it isn't for the Iron Throne, is as legitimate, if not more.

He's the only one who went to save the Night's Watch.

An honorable/reasonable decision doesn't outweigh a continuing history of terrible ones. He has positive qualities for sure but I don't like him as a person and I wouldn't trust him as a king.

Heh, Stannis says something along those lines.

Renly was not a good guy. He tried to steal the throne from his brother. He was a bad little brother.

If we're going by birthrights, by all means, the throne should be Daenerys', or Aegon's if you believe he's the real deal.

Renly openly admitted he wasn't the heir. He intended to win the throne by conquest. Birthrights can bugger themselves when it comes to conquest.

Depends whether or not Robert Baratheon is considered a legitimate king of the Iron Throne.

The Mad King lost his throne because he was a bad guy. Since then Robert has been the rightful king. The Targarean title is no longer relevant.

Robert actually had a legit (though incredibly weak and flimsy) claim to the throne through his Targaryen grandmother. That's why Robert, who really didn't /want/ to be king, was crowned, instead of say, Tywinn or Ned.

I thought the reason they placed him on there was mostly to serve as a kind of neutral point between the Starks and the Lannisters.

Honestly, Renly would have probably been a terrible king. I don't see it in him. He was a good guy though.

I guess I just see what's important in a king differently from most people on this thread. Renly would not necessarily be the most efficient administrator but he had the best values and was the most upstanding of the Five Kings. He valued freedom; he respected the Starks' terms. ....

I don't remember him agreeing to Catelyn's terms of the North going free.....

[Meryuma]

I don't remember him agreeing to Catelyn's terms of the North going free.....

It was somewhere in Season 2 (don't remember the exact episode).

[The Jonathanian States]

I don't remember him agreeing to Catelyn's terms of the North going free.....

It was somewhere in Season 2 (don't remember the exact episode).

I remember that she went to him in that season, but I don't remember him agreeing in neither the series nor the books. EDIT: Though I'd be glad to be confirmed wrong.
EDIT2: Nope, I wasn't.

Renly has Catelyn swear that her Robb has no interest in challenging him for the Iron Throne. Renly drinks from a goblet thougtfully and announces that he sees no reason for hostility between them. He offers his terms; Robb can retain the title of King in the North, and control of all lands north of Moat Cailin, but must swear fealty to Renly as Eddard Stark did to Robert Baratheon eighteen years earlier.

He merely gives Robb a title, but not the /actual/ terms.
EDIT3:
To clarify, the full terms as I remember them were:
The Kingdom of the North becomes independent, encompassing the North and Riverlands, also, that the ruler of the Kingdom of the North is recognized as King in the North (and King of the Trident by extension).
That last, merely cosmetic, one has been accepted. Though it basically is Status Quo.

[Charellia]

By the way, I've just noticed something.

Are there any paintings or sculptures in the ASoIAF universe? Is Westeros not a very artistic place (with all of those nobles, does not one collect or endorse any Michael Angelos? Is this the wrong time period? I thought medieval nobles had halls with lots of paintings)?

At least with what's shown in the series thus far on HBO, I've yet to see a single work of art anywhere. The Red Keep doesn't seem to have a single painting. What's the deal with that?

From my understanding Westeros is most similar to England in the fifteenth century. In that time art, with the exception of tapestries, was mostly religious and featured in churches.

However Westeros is also a fictional world and its culture does not have necessarily to conform to any time period. Whatever the customs of the world, we the reader/viewer simply have to accept them as is.

[Goldsaver]

By the way, I've just noticed something.

Are there any paintings or sculptures in the ASoIAF universe? Is Westeros not a very artistic place (with all of those nobles, does not one collect or endorse any Michael Angelos? Is this the wrong time period? I thought medieval nobles had halls with lots of paintings)?

At least with what's shown in the series thus far on HBO, I've yet to see a single work of art anywhere. The Red Keep doesn't seem to have a single painting. What's the deal with that?

There's a few statues and such (the sepulchers in the Stark catacombs, for example); there is no evidence of any painters existing. As far as I am aware, in the books the only artwork mentioned are monuments dedicated to the Gods or great individuals.

[Napkiraly]

Alexander Siddig has been confirmed to be playing Doran Martell.


Fucking yes.

[Point Breeze]

By the way, I've just noticed something.

Are there any paintings or sculptures in the ASoIAF universe? Is Westeros not a very artistic place (with all of those nobles, does not one collect or endorse any Michael Angelos? Is this the wrong time period? I thought medieval nobles had halls with lots of paintings)?

At least with what's shown in the series thus far on HBO, I've yet to see a single work of art anywhere. The Red Keep doesn't seem to have a single painting. What's the deal with that?

There's a few statues and such (the sepulchers in the Stark catacombs, for example); there is no evidence of any painters existing. As far as I am aware, in the books the only artwork mentioned are monuments dedicated to the Gods or great individuals.

Well, there's plenty of music, especially in the books, but there is a distinct lack of painted art around. Tywin Lannister seems like the kind of guy who would hang a giant portrait of himself as Hand of the King...in the Tower of the Hand.

[Charellia]

There's a few statues and such (the sepulchers in the Stark catacombs, for example); there is no evidence of any painters existing. As far as I am aware, in the books the only artwork mentioned are monuments dedicated to the Gods or great individuals.

Well, there's plenty of music, especially in the books, but there is a distinct lack of painted art around. Tywin Lannister seems like the kind of guy who would hang a giant portrait of himself as Hand of the King...in the Tower of the Hand.

In the show he had that metal lion which was, by the look of it, permanently attached to the wall.

[New Frenco Empire]

There are several mentions of tapestries, though. I wish there were more, though. I love medieval tapestries.

Anyways, how about those new cast members? Some are kind of "meh". Not sure why they recast Myrcella. I am really digging the actors they got to play Doran and the High Sparrow, though.

EDIT: Also came across this fun little reference while getting my fill of Al.

[Point Breeze]

There are several mentions of tapestries, though. I wish there were more, though. I love medieval tapestries.

Anyways, how about those new cast members? Some are kind of "meh". Not sure why they recast Myrcella. I am really digging the actors they got to play Doran and the High Sparrow, though.

EDIT: Also came across this fun little reference while getting my fill of Al.

That was hilarious.

I think a recasting of Myrcella was to be expected, since she's getting a bit more attention next season.

[The Jonathanian States]

There are several mentions of tapestries, though. I wish there were more, though. I love medieval tapestries.

Anyways, how about those new cast members? Some are kind of "meh". Not sure why they recast Myrcella. I am really digging the actors they got to play Doran and the High Sparrow, though.

EDIT: Also came across this fun little reference while getting my fill of Al.

Heh

[Meryuma]

There are several mentions of tapestries, though. I wish there were more, though. I love medieval tapestries.

Embroidery is definitely a thing in Westeros. I'd say the main Westerosi art forms are songs, embroidery/tapestries, and I guess fashion and architecture.

[The Jonathanian States]

There are several mentions of tapestries, though. I wish there were more, though. I love medieval tapestries.

Embroidery is definitely a thing in Westeros. I'd say the main Westerosi art forms are songs, embroidery/tapestries, and I guess fashion and architecture.

Yep, I love me some fine architecture.
Seriously, Winterfell has warm gardens, a natural heating system, and few men supposedly can hold it against many more. Moat Cailin is ancient, has held off many invasions and still can hold it against many more. Then we have Storm's End, which can be held against many more. Then we have Harrenhall, a castle designed to be massive and hold off many.... I think I am sensing a pattern here

[Point Breeze]

Embroidery is definitely a thing in Westeros. I'd say the main Westerosi art forms are songs, embroidery/tapestries, and I guess fashion and architecture.

Yep, I love me some fine architecture.
Seriously, Winterfell has warm gardens, a natural heating system, and few men supposedly can hold it against many more. Moat Cailin is ancient, has held off many invasions and still can hold it against many more. Then we have Storm's End, which can be held against many more. Then we have Harrenhall, a castle designed to be massive and hold off many.... I think I am sensing a pattern here

New poll idea - which castle would YOU want as your own House's seat?

I'm thinking Storm's End. The huuuge walls, ridiculously strong, and prime location. Winterfell is a close second. The Red Keep has too much bloody history, Harrenhal and Most Cailin are practically ruins. Pyke just looks like a bad idea. I guess Dragonstone would be a solid choice too.

[New Frenco Empire]

Yep, I love me some fine architecture.
Seriously, Winterfell has warm gardens, a natural heating system, and few men supposedly can hold it against many more. Moat Cailin is ancient, has held off many invasions and still can hold it against many more. Then we have Storm's End, which can be held against many more. Then we have Harrenhall, a castle designed to be massive and hold off many.... I think I am sensing a pattern here

New poll idea - which castle would YOU want as your own House's seat?

I'm thinking Storm's End. The huuuge walls, ridiculously strong, and prime location. Winterfell is a close second. The Red Keep has too much bloody history, Harrenhal and Most Cailin are practically ruins. Pyke just looks like a bad idea. I guess Dragonstone would be a solid choice too.

My evil, warlike side wants the Dreadfort. To hear the descriptions of it, it is as intimidating as it sounds.

My more rational, peaceful side wants Sunspear. The Water Gardens sound nice.

[The Jonathanian States]

Yep, I love me some fine architecture.
Seriously, Winterfell has warm gardens, a natural heating system, and few men supposedly can hold it against many more. Moat Cailin is ancient, has held off many invasions and still can hold it against many more. Then we have Storm's End, which can be held against many more. Then we have Harrenhall, a castle designed to be massive and hold off many.... I think I am sensing a pattern here

New poll idea - which castle would YOU want as your own House's seat?

I'm thinking Storm's End. The huuuge walls, ridiculously strong, and prime location. Winterfell is a close second. The Red Keep has too much bloody history, Harrenhal and Most Cailin are practically ruins. Pyke just looks like a bad idea. I guess Dragonstone would be a solid choice too.

Great idea, I'm in favor as well.
I'd go for winterfell, then probably Casterly Rock, the New Castle of White Harbor, followed by Storm's End and Dragonstone, and then the rest.
Why Winterfell?
A) I'm a Starkaholic
B) It's in the bloody north. I want to see a non-northerner take an army through the neck and through the permafrost to Winterfell.
C) Even if you are there with your damn host, I vaguely remember Ned mentioning that a few dozen can hold off many hundred in that fortress. Or something along those lines.
D) Unlike most of the North, or most castles in general (though they have less reason for it), Winterfell actualy has heating thanks to the Hot springs flowing through its walls.
E) It also has the Glass Gardens, in which plants can be grown in the harsh climate.
F) It has crypts.

EDIT:
As for Casterly:
It has gold mines in the area, I think. Also, it should be quite a good location with a coast and on a Cliff, IIRC. Also should have deep cellars. Considering its owners are the richest house this side of the Narrow sea, I also assume that it is somewhat secure.
White Harbor: It's one of the five areas in Westeros that can actually be called a city, and the only one north of Gulltown and Braavos, that means trade. It has a port which

can build major warfleets

.
It has an older castle as Prison and a great seawall around it, and New castle is located on the hill around which the castle is built, and from which you can view the whole city and harbor.
Storm's End already been mentioned, and Dragonstone as well.

New poll idea - which castle would YOU want as your own House's seat?

I'm thinking Storm's End. The huuuge walls, ridiculously strong, and prime location. Winterfell is a close second. The Red Keep has too much bloody history, Harrenhal and Most Cailin are practically ruins. Pyke just looks like a bad idea. I guess Dragonstone would be a solid choice too.

My evil, warlike side wants the Dreadfort. To hear the descriptions of it, it is as intimidating as it sounds.

My more rational, peaceful side wants Sunspear. The Water Gardens sound nice.

Sunspear sounds nice as well. Though I think I'd prefer something less hot.

[Eaglleia]

Yep, I love me some fine architecture.
Seriously, Winterfell has warm gardens, a natural heating system, and few men supposedly can hold it against many more. Moat Cailin is ancient, has held off many invasions and still can hold it against many more. Then we have Storm's End, which can be held against many more. Then we have Harrenhall, a castle designed to be massive and hold off many.... I think I am sensing a pattern here

New poll idea - which castle would YOU want as your own House's seat?

I'm thinking Storm's End. The huuuge walls, ridiculously strong, and prime location. Winterfell is a close second. The Red Keep has too much bloody history, Harrenhal and Most Cailin are practically ruins. Pyke just looks like a bad idea. I guess Dragonstone would be a solid choice too.

Well from a non militaristic or House-biased standpoint, I'd guess Highgarden. The largest, wealthiest and prettiest.

[The Jonathanian States]

New poll idea - which castle would YOU want as your own House's seat?

I'm thinking Storm's End. The huuuge walls, ridiculously strong, and prime location. Winterfell is a close second. The Red Keep has too much bloody history, Harrenhal and Most Cailin are practically ruins. Pyke just looks like a bad idea. I guess Dragonstone would be a solid choice too.

Well from a non militaristic or House-biased standpoint, I'd guess Highgarden. The largest, wealthiest and prettiest.

Do we actually know how pretty Highgarden is? I don't remember any chapter or episode taking place there, and also don't remember too much of it's description.
Also, wouldn't Lannisport/Casterly Rock be wealthier, with all that gold down there? Or a non-Westerosi location on the Narrow sea?

[New Frenco Empire]

Well from a non militaristic or House-biased standpoint, I'd guess Highgarden. The largest, wealthiest and prettiest.

Do we actually know how pretty Highgarden is? I don't remember any chapter or episode taking place there, and also don't remember too much of it's description.
Also, wouldn't Lannisport/Casterly Rock be wealthier, with all that gold down there? Or a non-Westerosi location on the Narrow sea?

From the wiki:

"The tiered-walled[3] castle has groves and fountains, shady courtyards, and marble colonnades. It is filled with singers, pipers, fiddlers and harpers. The stables have a fine selection of horseflesh, and there are pleasure boats to sail along the Mander.[4]
There are fields of golden roses that stretch as far as the eye can see. Fruits grown nearby include melons, peaches, and fireplums.[5]"

[Eaglleia]

Well from a non militaristic or House-biased standpoint, I'd guess Highgarden. The largest, wealthiest and prettiest.

Do we actually know how pretty Highgarden is? I don't remember any chapter or episode taking place there, and also don't remember too much of it's description.
Also, wouldn't Lannisport/Casterly Rock be wealthier, with all that gold down there? Or a non-Westerosi location on the Narrow sea?

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Highgarden
Well, not with the war, but I suppose Casterly Rock could be richer before that started. Still, the Tyrells do have the farmlands of the Reach, and apparently provide a significant portion of the food consumed in Westeros right now, so one could say that kind of wealth is more important than gold, in a way. And the actual prosperity of the Free Cities, except maybe Braavos, is never spoken of in particular detail.

[New Frenco Empire]

Oh, and if I get the Dreadfort, I'll also get the flayed skins of a few old Stark Kings. That's always awesome.