ASoIAF/Game of Thrones general Discussion Thread

[Meryuma]

A cardboard box who kills/threatens to kill his friends and family members and bases most of his policy decisions on his lust for a cult leader.

(Renly = the best Baratheon.)

A cardboard box who has to deal with the idea of possibly being a holy messiah, balance his ideas of honor with pragmatism, both use and restrain Melisandre's power. I mean, the entire sequence with Edric Storm is a character conflict for Stannis. He's trying to weigh the outcomes against his morals and the issue is never really resolved. Plus I'd say there's a significant development from his attitude of attacking Storm's End and King's Landing because they're easy targets/his right, and attacking the wildlings to save the kingdom. A kingdom that has rejected and continues to reject him.

I don't see how he's restraining Melisandre. He usually goes along with everything she says. Maybe it's different in the books?

I don't see the appeal in him. He has the likability and character development of a cardboard box, imho.

He's the only one who went to save the Night's Watch.

An honorable/reasonable decision doesn't outweigh a continuing history of terrible ones. He has positive qualities for sure but I don't like him as a person and I wouldn't trust him as a king.

[Persivis]

He's the only one who went to save the Night's Watch.

An honorable/reasonable decision doesn't outweigh a continuing history of terrible ones. He has positive qualities for sure but I don't like him as a person and I wouldn't trust him as a king.

His assassination of Renly was a pretty good decision. Not an honorable one, but it certainly helped him out a lot. His attack on King's Landing was also pretty successful had Tyrion not pulled out a last minute cheat code and Tywin moved in without anyone expecting in it.

Honestly, Renly would have probably been a terrible king. I don't see it in him. He was a good guy though.

[New Frenco Empire]

A cardboard box who has to deal with the idea of possibly being a holy messiah, balance his ideas of honor with pragmatism, both use and restrain Melisandre's power. I mean, the entire sequence with Edric Storm is a character conflict for Stannis. He's trying to weigh the outcomes against his morals and the issue is never really resolved. Plus I'd say there's a significant development from his attitude of attacking Storm's End and King's Landing because they're easy targets/his right, and attacking the wildlings to save the kingdom. A kingdom that has rejected and continues to reject him.

I don't see how he's restraining Melisandre. He usually goes along with everything she says. Maybe it's different in the books?

He's the only one who went to save the Night's Watch.

An honorable/reasonable decision doesn't outweigh a continuing history of terrible ones. He has positive qualities for sure but I don't like him as a person and I wouldn't trust him as a king.

I will admit, book Stannis is less of a tool and more free-willed. However, that doesn't make him that much better. He would have eventually sacrificed Edric (who takes that arc away from Gendry in the books) if Davos didn't save the day.

[United Marxist Nations]

An honorable/reasonable decision doesn't outweigh a continuing history of terrible ones. He has positive qualities for sure but I don't like him as a person and I wouldn't trust him as a king.

His assassination of Renly was a pretty good decision. Not an honorable one, but it certainly helped him out a lot. His attack on King's Landing was also pretty successful had Tyrion not pulled out a last minute cheat code and Tywin moved in without anyone expecting in it.

Honestly, Renly would have probably been a terrible king. I don't see it in him. He was a good guy though.

^This. Don't get on the historian's fallacy.

[United Marxist Nations]

I don't see how he's restraining Melisandre. He usually goes along with everything she says. Maybe it's different in the books?



An honorable/reasonable decision doesn't outweigh a continuing history of terrible ones. He has positive qualities for sure but I don't like him as a person and I wouldn't trust him as a king.

I will admit, book Stannis is less of a tool and more free-willed. However, that doesn't make him that much better. He would have eventually sacrificed Edric (who takes that arc away from Gendry in the books) if Davos didn't save the day.

Can you really blame him? It must have seemed like that blood had real power. And, for all we know, it may have had some.

[Infected Mushroom]

An honorable/reasonable decision doesn't outweigh a continuing history of terrible ones. He has positive qualities for sure but I don't like him as a person and I wouldn't trust him as a king.

His assassination of Renly was a pretty good decision. Not an honorable one, but it certainly helped him out a lot. His attack on King's Landing was also pretty successful had Tyrion not pulled out a last minute cheat code and Tywin moved in without anyone expecting in it.

Honestly, Renly would have probably been a terrible king. I don't see it in him. He was a good guy though.

Renly was not a good guy. He tried to steal the throne from his brother. He was a bad little brother.

[Infected Mushroom]

ASoIAF should be required classroom reading.

I've learned more from it about life and how things work than the Bible, the Illiad and all the works of classical literature combined.

Its also quite the philosophical treatise. Definitely a few notches above Hobbes,Locke, Rousseau etc...

In what way is it a philosophical treatise?

it is a philosophical treatise against trusting government blindly and thinking justice will always prevail, it is also a treatise on Betrayal...

[Persivis]

His assassination of Renly was a pretty good decision. Not an honorable one, but it certainly helped him out a lot. His attack on King's Landing was also pretty successful had Tyrion not pulled out a last minute cheat code and Tywin moved in without anyone expecting in it.

Honestly, Renly would have probably been a terrible king. I don't see it in him. He was a good guy though.

Renly was not a good guy. He tried to steal the throne from his brother. He was a bad little brother.

He was a lot more merciful. He did try to steal the throne, but almost everyone in Westoros wanted it. Stannis would be a better king, Renly would be a nicer king.

[Infected Mushroom]

Renly was not a good guy. He tried to steal the throne from his brother. He was a bad little brother.

He was a lot more merciful. He did try to steal the throne, but almost everyone in Westoros wanted it. Stannis would be a better king, Renly would be a nicer king.

it makes him unlikable in my book.

See if my father left this world and he left me all of his money... and then my little brother who is more popular gets a whole bunch of thugs to help him try and muscle me out of my rightful claim; I would not be very happy.

[New Frenco Empire]

His assassination of Renly was a pretty good decision. Not an honorable one, but it certainly helped him out a lot. His attack on King's Landing was also pretty successful had Tyrion not pulled out a last minute cheat code and Tywin moved in without anyone expecting in it.

Honestly, Renly would have probably been a terrible king. I don't see it in him. He was a good guy though.

Renly was not a good guy. He tried to steal the throne from his brother. He was a bad little brother.

If we're going by birthrights, by all means, the throne should be Daenerys', or Aegon's if you believe he's the real deal.

Renly openly admitted he wasn't the heir. He intended to win the throne by conquest. Birthrights can bugger themselves when it comes to conquest.

[Infected Mushroom]

Renly was not a good guy. He tried to steal the throne from his brother. He was a bad little brother.

If we're going by birthrights, by all means, the throne should be Daenerys', or Aegon's if you believe he's the real deal.

Renly openly admitted he wasn't the heir. He intended to win the throne by conquest. Birthrights can bugger themselves when it comes to conquest.

The Mad King lost his throne because he was a bad guy. Since then Robert has been the rightful king. The Targarean title is no longer relevant.

[New Frenco Empire]

If we're going by birthrights, by all means, the throne should be Daenerys', or Aegon's if you believe he's the real deal.

Renly openly admitted he wasn't the heir. He intended to win the throne by conquest. Birthrights can bugger themselves when it comes to conquest.

The Mad King lost his throne because he was a bad guy. Since then Robert has been the rightful king. The Targarean title is no longer relevant.

You missed the point.

[New Frenco Empire]

I will admit, book Stannis is less of a tool and more free-willed. However, that doesn't make him that much better. He would have eventually sacrificed Edric (who takes that arc away from Gendry in the books) if Davos didn't save the day.

Can you really blame him? It must have seemed like that blood had real power. And, for all we know, it may have had some.

Ummm...yes? Sacrificing your nephew to some fire god is despicable, no matter if it hatched the stone dragons or whatever.

[Infected Mushroom]

The Mad King lost his throne because he was a bad guy. Since then Robert has been the rightful king. The Targarean title is no longer relevant.

You missed the point.

Renly tried to take what wasn't his. He betrayed his older brother first... hence I feel no sympathy for him when he got assassinated.

[United Marxist Nations]

The Mad King lost his throne because he was a bad guy. Since then Robert has been the rightful king. The Targarean title is no longer relevant.

You missed the point.

I'm not sure they did. If you control the realm, then you can dissolve the previous monarchy and found a new one pretty easily. Moreover, if the High-Septon ordained Robert, then the Targaryen title really is irrelevant, depending on whether Westeros follows the Frankish model (religion over Emperor) or the Roman model (Emperor over religion).

[Goldsaver]

If we're going by birthrights, by all means, the throne should be Daenerys', or Aegon's if you believe he's the real deal.

Renly openly admitted he wasn't the heir. He intended to win the throne by conquest. Birthrights can bugger themselves when it comes to conquest.

The Mad King lost his throne because he was a bad guy. Since then Robert has been the rightful king. The Targarean title is no longer relevant.

Robert actually had a legit (though incredibly weak and flimsy) claim to the throne through his Targaryen grandmother. That's why Robert, who really didn't /want/ to be king, was crowned, instead of say, Tywinn or Ned.

Renly was not a good guy. He tried to steal the throne from his brother. He was a bad little brother.

He was a lot more merciful. He did try to steal the throne, but almost everyone in Westoros wanted it. Stannis would be a better king, Renly would be a nicer king.

Renly is very much like Robert in that he is an overly bold warrior that places way too much emphasis on strength of arms. He would most likely grow to Robert 2.0, shitting the wealth of the Iron Throne away on tourneys and other spectacles.

[United Marxist Nations]

Can you really blame him? It must have seemed like that blood had real power. And, for all we know, it may have had some.

Ummm...yes? Sacrificing your nephew to some fire god is despicable, no matter if it hatched the stone dragons or whatever.

What is the life of one person to the entire realm?

[Meryuma]

Honestly, Renly would have probably been a terrible king. I don't see it in him. He was a good guy though.

I guess I just see what's important in a king differently from most people on this thread. Renly would not necessarily be the most efficient administrator but he had the best values and was the most upstanding of the Five Kings. He valued freedom; he respected the Starks' terms. There are plenty of people in Westeros who are skilled tacticians, administrators, etc. but few who are good-hearted. Stannis could bring the people security, but most likely not happiness or freedom. He is too cold and too easily swayed by Melisandre to make Westeros a better place in which to actually live. From what I can recall, Renly's people loved him and he had a huge number of people willing to fight for him. That's hardly nothing.

^This. Don't get on the historian's fallacy.

Except there are a lot of people in Westeros who wouldn't condone the shit Stannis did. Hell, I don't even know if Stannis condones all the stuff Stannis does.

[New Frenco Empire]

You missed the point.

Renly tried to take what wasn't his. He betrayed his older brother first... hence I feel no sympathy for him when he got assassinated.

The point being that conquest >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> birthrights. Renly knew it and openly admitted to it.

Ummm...yes? Sacrificing your nephew to some fire god is despicable, no matter if it hatched the stone dragons or whatever.

What is the life of one person to the entire realm?

Saving the realm from...what, exactly? The reign of King Tommen, a gentle boy?

[United Marxist Nations]

Renly tried to take what wasn't his. He betrayed his older brother first... hence I feel no sympathy for him when he got assassinated.

The point being that conquest >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> birthrights. Renly knew it and openly admitted to it.

What is the life of one person to the entire realm?

Saving the realm from...what, exactly? The reign of King Tommen, a gentle boy?

We all know that Tommen doesn't have any real power. He doesn't even have any fake power, since there's a regency (iirc).

[Goldsaver]

What is the life of one person to the entire realm?

Saving the realm from...what, exactly? The reign of King Tommen, a gentle boy?

The reign of insane Queen Regent Cersei?
The Others?

Not that I support the murder of Edric Storm at all; Stannis should take a page from Ned's book on that issue.

[New Frenco Empire]

The point being that conquest >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> birthrights. Renly knew it and openly admitted to it.



Saving the realm from...what, exactly? The reign of King Tommen, a gentle boy?

We all know that Tommen doesn't have any real power. He doesn't even have any fake power, since there's a regency (iirc).

Again, what was he going to save the realm from? The effective leadership of Kevan Lannister? Margaery Tyrell?

I'm all for using the unconventional to further your political standing, but there is a limit.

[New Frenco Empire]

Saving the realm from...what, exactly? The reign of King Tommen, a gentle boy?

The reign of insane Queen Regent Cersei?

Fair enough on that, though, trying to "save the realm" by installing himself as monarch is a loaded word.

The Others?

Might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure he didn't know about them yet.

[Persivis]

I guess I just see what's important in a king differently from most people on this thread. Renly would not necessarily be the most efficient administrator but he had the best values and was the most upstanding of the Five Kings. He valued freedom; he respected the Starks' terms. There are plenty of people in Westeros who are skilled tacticians, administrators, etc. but few who are good-hearted. Stannis could bring the people security, but most likely not happiness or freedom. He is too cold and too easily swayed by Melisandre to make Westeros a better place in which to actually live. From what I can recall, Renly's people loved him and he had a huge number of people willing to fight for him. That's hardly nothing.

he was deifnitely a good person. In my ideal world I would have seen Renly as a Figure head King and Stannis as the Hand.

Except there are a lot of people in Westeros who wouldn't condone the shit Stannis did. Hell, I don't even know if Stannis condones all the stuff Stannis does.

He assassinated someone and sacrificed someone. The latter, definitely bad, but I don't know, his last magical escapade ended pretty well for him and all the people named have died...

[Persivis]

We all know that Tommen doesn't have any real power. He doesn't even have any fake power, since there's a regency (iirc).

Again, what was he going to save the realm from? The effective leadership of Kevan Lannister? Margaery Tyrell?

I'm all for using the unconventional to further your political standing, but there is a limit.

Cersei at this point, or really anyone who is going to abuse him. Tommen I would support once he's aged.