ASoIAF/Game of Thrones general Discussion Thread

[New Frenco Empire]

He has the likability and character development of a cardboard box, imho.

A cardboard box who kills/threatens to kill his friends and family members and bases most of his policy decisions on his lust for a cult leader.

(Renly = the best Baratheon.)

Amen to that. After revisiting Renly's character recently, I've grown quite fond of him.

Even if he was destined to die from the start.

[The Jonathanian States]

the "good guys" (not that there really are any)

May I introduce you to the honorable Lord Eddard of House Stark? Can anybody legitimately say that he was a bad guy?
To the heiress(?) to the Sapphire Island, Lady Brienne of Tarth? Depending on your opinion possibly also his Grace Robb of House Stark, King in the North, King of the Trident?
Also,

his Grace Tommen of House Baratheon-Lannister, King on the Iron Throne, isn't a particularly bad person.

[New Aerios]

the "good guys" (not that there really are any)

May I introduce you to the honorable Lord Eddard of House Stark? Can anybody legitimately say that he was a bad guy?
To the heiress(?) to the Sapphire Island, Lady Brienne of Tarth? Depending on your opinion possibly also his Grace Robb of House Stark, King in the North, King of the Trident?
Also,

his Grace Tommen of House Baratheon-Lannister, King on the Iron Throne, isn't a particularly bad person.

The Starks may not have been bad, but they were incredibly fucking stupid and deserved to die for their total incompetence. Tommen is just a little kid really, he's fine so far but he might grow up to become another Joffrey. I'll agree with you that Brienne was a good person (again rather stupid, though. Yes, she swore an oath to Catelyn, but to

return the Starks most valuable prisoner to the Lannisters for no benefit whatsoever

is nothing short of idiocy).

[Point Breeze]

Brienne never once questioned Cat's decision about Jaime. In that way she's honorable to a fault, even more so than Lord Eddard.

[Bralia]

the "good guys" (not that there really are any)

May I introduce you to the honorable Lord Eddard of House Stark? Can anybody legitimately say that he was a bad guy?
To the heiress(?) to the Sapphire Island, Lady Brienne of Tarth? Depending on your opinion possibly also his Grace Robb of House Stark, King in the North, King of the Trident?
Also,

his Grace Tommen of House Baratheon-Lannister, King on the Iron Throne, isn't a particularly bad person.

Cersei Lannister.

[The Huskar Social Union]

May I introduce you to the honorable Lord Eddard of House Stark? Can anybody legitimately say that he was a bad guy?
To the heiress(?) to the Sapphire Island, Lady Brienne of Tarth? Depending on your opinion possibly also his Grace Robb of House Stark, King in the North, King of the Trident?
Also,

his Grace Tommen of House Baratheon-Lannister, King on the Iron Throne, isn't a particularly bad person.

Cersei Lannister.

Eh, Cersei can go sodomise herself with a sharpened stick.

[New Aerios]

Cersei Lannister.

Eh, Cersei can go sodomise herself with a sharpened stick.

Is that what she calls her brother now?

[The Huskar Social Union]

Eh, Cersei can go sodomise herself with a sharpened stick.

Is that what she calls her brother now?

Well played.. well played.

[Eaglleia]

Eh, Cersei can go sodomise herself with a sharpened stick.

Is that what she calls her brother now?

In that case, that stick doesn't want her anymore.

[Goldsaver]

May I introduce you to the honorable Lord Eddard of House Stark? Can anybody legitimately say that he was a bad guy?
To the heiress(?) to the Sapphire Island, Lady Brienne of Tarth? Depending on your opinion possibly also his Grace Robb of House Stark, King in the North, King of the Trident?
Also,

his Grace Tommen of House Baratheon-Lannister, King on the Iron Throne, isn't a particularly bad person.

The Starks may not have been bad, but they were incredibly fucking stupid and deserved to die for their total incompetence. Tommen is just a little kid really, he's fine so far but he might grow up to become another Joffrey. I'll agree with you that Brienne was a good person (again rather stupid, though. Yes, she swore an oath to Catelyn, but to

return the Starks most valuable prisoner to the Lannisters for no benefit whatsoever

is nothing short of idiocy).

Joffery was

cutting open cats to see unborn kittens at Tommen's age.

Tommen is not showing even the barest hint of the cruelty that Joffery demonstrated at a young age.

Brienne was a sworn sword, just following orders. It was Catelyn's decision and Catelyn's mistake.

The Starks were not really all that stupid or at all incompetent; they are simply honorable (in Ned's case I'd say moral) to a fault.

Ned's main mistake was trusting Littlefinger, who in the books atleast had helped Ned ALOT and gave Ned little reason to distrust him. Ned was operating under the assumption Baleish was just doing whatever was best for Catelyn out of his infatuation with her.

Ned served as a decent hand-of-the-king (not as good as Tywinn obviously).

Robb really couldn't of predicted Walder was just going to shit all over guest right. There is also a slight implication that his infatuation with Jeyne Westerling and subsequent quick marriage to her was not a decision he made with a clear mind; a throw-away line mentions the Westerlings are known for brewing, among other things, fertility potions, abortive potions, and love (!) potions. It is also very strongly implied that the Westerlings planned for Robb to fall in love with/marry Jeyne as part of Twyin's plan to turn Lord Walder to his side.

Granted this point is irrelevant in the show since Jeyne is replaced by a completely different character.

Also, people are talking about good guys, and not mentioning Davos Seaworth? He's probably the most straight-up moral person in the series.

[New Aerios]

The Starks may not have been bad, but they were incredibly fucking stupid and deserved to die for their total incompetence. Tommen is just a little kid really, he's fine so far but he might grow up to become another Joffrey. I'll agree with you that Brienne was a good person (again rather stupid, though. Yes, she swore an oath to Catelyn, but to

return the Starks most valuable prisoner to the Lannisters for no benefit whatsoever

is nothing short of idiocy).

The Starks were not really all that stupid or at all incompetent; they are simply honorable (in Ned's case I'd say moral) to a fault.

Ned's main mistake was trusting Littlefinger, who in the books atleast had helped Ned ALOT and gave Ned little reason to distrust him. Ned was operating under the assumption Baleish was just doing whatever was best for Catelyn out of his infatuation with her.

Ned served as a decent hand-of-the-king (not as good as Tywinn obviously).

No, Ned's main mistake was

telling Little Miss Murderous Bitch that he knew she was fucking her brother and that none of her kids had a legitimate claim to the Iron Throne. He knew what Cersei was like. He knew what the Lannisters in general were like. He was an idiot, and paid the price for his idiocy.

The Starks may not have been bad, but they were incredibly fucking stupid and deserved to die for their total incompetence. Tommen is just a little kid really, he's fine so far but he might grow up to become another Joffrey. I'll agree with you that Brienne was a good person (again rather stupid, though. Yes, she swore an oath to Catelyn, but to

return the Starks most valuable prisoner to the Lannisters for no benefit whatsoever

is nothing short of idiocy).

Robb really couldn't of predicted Walder was just going to shit all over guest right. There is also a slight implication that his infatuation with Jeyne Westerling and subsequent quick marriage to her was not a decision he made with a clear mind; a throw-away line mentions the Westerlings are known for brewing, among other things, fertility potions, abortive potions, and love (!) potions. It is also very strongly implied that the Westerlings planned for Robb to fall in love with/marry Jeyne as part of Twyin's plan to turn Lord Walder to his side.

Forget the whole marriage thing, Robb wouldn't have even needed to [spoiler]see Walder Frey and try to forge an alliance if he hadn't been stupid enough to execute Rickard Karstark and lose half his fucking bannermen with a single swing of his sword. He was an idiot, and he paid the price for his idiocy.

[Point Breeze]

The Starks may not have been bad, but they were incredibly fucking stupid and deserved to die for their total incompetence. Tommen is just a little kid really, he's fine so far but he might grow up to become another Joffrey. I'll agree with you that Brienne was a good person (again rather stupid, though. Yes, she swore an oath to Catelyn, but to

return the Starks most valuable prisoner to the Lannisters for no benefit whatsoever

is nothing short of idiocy).

Joffery was

cutting open cats to see unborn kittens at Tommen's age.

Tommen is not showing even the barest hint of the cruelty that Joffery demonstrated at a young age.

Brienne was a sworn sword, just following orders. It was Catelyn's decision and Catelyn's mistake.

The Starks were not really all that stupid or at all incompetent; they are simply honorable (in Ned's case I'd say moral) to a fault.

Ned's main mistake was trusting Littlefinger, who in the books atleast had helped Ned ALOT and gave Ned little reason to distrust him. Ned was operating under the assumption Baleish was just doing whatever was best for Catelyn out of his infatuation with her.

Ned served as a decent hand-of-the-king (not as good as Tywinn obviously).

Robb really couldn't of predicted Walder was just going to shit all over guest right. There is also a slight implication that his infatuation with Jeyne Westerling and subsequent quick marriage to her was not a decision he made with a clear mind; a throw-away line mentions the Westerlings are known for brewing, among other things, fertility potions, abortive potions, and love (!) potions. It is also very strongly implied that the Westerlings planned for Robb to fall in love with/marry Jeyne as part of Twyin's plan to turn Lord Walder to his side.

Granted this point is irrelevant in the show since Jeyne is replaced by a completely different character.

Also, people are talking about good guys, and not mentioning Davos Seaworth? He's probably the most straight-up moral person in the series.

I really think Stannis is one of the most flawed characters in the series, and Davos kind of trues to make up for that. Stannis seems to have the most stress out of all the "kings," even though he's the one with the most legit claim.

[Charellia]

The Starks were not really all that stupid or at all incompetent; they are simply honorable (in Ned's case I'd say moral) to a fault.

Ned's main mistake was trusting Littlefinger, who in the books atleast had helped Ned ALOT and gave Ned little reason to distrust him. Ned was operating under the assumption Baleish was just doing whatever was best for Catelyn out of his infatuation with her.

Ned served as a decent hand-of-the-king (not as good as Tywinn obviously).

No, Ned's main mistake was

telling Little Miss Murderous Bitch that he knew she was fucking her brother and that none of her kids had a legitimate claim to the Iron Throne. He knew what Cersei was like. He knew what the Lannisters in general were like. He was an idiot, and paid the price for his idiocy.

Robb really couldn't of predicted Walder was just going to shit all over guest right. There is also a slight implication that his infatuation with Jeyne Westerling and subsequent quick marriage to her was not a decision he made with a clear mind; a throw-away line mentions the Westerlings are known for brewing, among other things, fertility potions, abortive potions, and love (!) potions. It is also very strongly implied that the Westerlings planned for Robb to fall in love with/marry Jeyne as part of Twyin's plan to turn Lord Walder to his side.

Forget the whole marriage thing, Robb wouldn't have even needed to [spoiler]see Walder Frey and try to forge an alliance if he hadn't been stupid enough to execute Rickard Karstark and lose half his fucking bannermen with a single swing of his sword. He was an idiot, and he paid the price for his idiocy.

[New Aerios]

No, Ned's main mistake was

telling Little Miss Murderous Bitch that he knew she was fucking her brother and that none of her kids had a legitimate claim to the Iron Throne. He knew what Cersei was like. He knew what the Lannisters in general were like. He was an idiot, and paid the price for his idiocy.

Forget the whole marriage thing, Robb wouldn't have even needed to

see Walder Frey and try to forge an alliance if he hadn't been stupid enough to execute Rickard Karstark and lose half his fucking bannermen with a single swing of his sword. He was an idiot, and he paid the price for his idiocy.

If Robb hadn't executed Rickard Karstark he would have ended any chance for peace with the Lannisters. He still hoped to end the war diplomatically.

If Robb had half a brain cell, he would have realised that a diplomatic victory over the people who killed his father and held his sister prisoner, and were willing to let an insane sadistic illegitimate incestuous bastard sit on the Iron Throne, was impossible. He knew even before he executed Rickard that he would lose half his army for doing so. Any half decent leader would not throw away half their army for a slim chance at diplomacy with the most determined and unforgiving family of cunts in the war.

[Goldsaver]

If Robb hadn't executed Rickard Karstark he would have ended any chance for peace with the Lannisters. He still hoped to end the war diplomatically.

If Robb had half a brain cell, he would have realised that a diplomatic victory over the people who killed his father and held his sister prisoner, and were willing to let an insane sadistic illegitimate incestuous bastard sit on the Iron Throne, was impossible. He knew even before he executed Rickard that he would lose half his army for doing so. Any half decent leader would not throw away half their army for a slim chance at diplomacy with the most determined and unforgiving family of cunts in the war.

I don't know what Robb was doing in the TV show, but

in the books, he was on his way back to the North, going to the /only/ way North, only stopping to attend Edmure's wedding to try and rebuild his bridge with Walder Frey. Were it not for Roose/Walder/Tywin's plan to kill Robb and raise up Roose, the Karstarks would of had basically no choice but to remain loyal to Robb, or else see their homes taken and burned by the Ironborn without the King in the North to support them.

[Charellia]

If Robb hadn't executed Rickard Karstark he would have ended any chance for peace with the Lannisters. He still hoped to end the war diplomatically.

If Robb had half a brain cell, he would have realised that a diplomatic victory over the people who killed his father and held his sister prisoner, and were willing to let an insane sadistic illegitimate incestuous bastard sit on the Iron Throne, was impossible. He knew even before he executed Rickard that he would lose half his army for doing so. Any half decent leader would not throw away half their army for a slim chance at diplomacy with the most determined and unforgiving family of cunts in the war.

A diplomatic resolution was the only possible way for Robb to win and certainly the only way to free Sansa. If he hadn't killed Rickard Karstark the Lannisters might have started executing their own hostages.

[New Aerios]

If Robb had half a brain cell, he would have realised that a diplomatic victory over the people who killed his father and held his sister prisoner, and were willing to let an insane sadistic illegitimate incestuous bastard sit on the Iron Throne, was impossible. He knew even before he executed Rickard that he would lose half his army for doing so. Any half decent leader would not throw away half their army for a slim chance at diplomacy with the most determined and unforgiving family of cunts in the war.

I don't know what Robb was doing in the TV show, but

in the books, he was on his way back to the North, going to the /only/ way North, only stopping to attend Edmure's wedding to try and rebuild his bridge with Walder Frey. Were it not for Roose/Walder/Tywin's plan to kill Robb and raise up Roose, the Karstarks would of had basically no choice but to remain loyal to Robb, or else see their homes taken and burned by the Ironborn without the King in the North to support them.

I see. I was basing it on the TV show, where

Robb has no intention of going back North, and plans to attack Casterly Rock while the majority of the Lannister forces are in and around King's Landing. However, in order to take the Rock quickly enough to stand a chance of defending against Lannister reinforcements, he needs a big army. He then kills Karstark anyway, and realises he needs Walder Frey's men to execute his plan.

[New Aerios]

If Robb had half a brain cell, he would have realised that a diplomatic victory over the people who killed his father and held his sister prisoner, and were willing to let an insane sadistic illegitimate incestuous bastard sit on the Iron Throne, was impossible. He knew even before he executed Rickard that he would lose half his army for doing so. Any half decent leader would not throw away half their army for a slim chance at diplomacy with the most determined and unforgiving family of cunts in the war.

A diplomatic resolution was the only possible way for Robb to win and certainly the only way to free Sansa. If he hadn't killed Rickard Karstark the Lannisters might have started executing their own hostages.

No, a diplomatic resolution was impossible. Karstark killed a couple of very minor Lannisters. Tywin's lot aren't going to execute a hostage as valuable as Sansa for that. If he hadn't killed Karstark, he would have been able to take Casterly Rock with his much larger army, defend against Lannister reinforcements from King's Landing, and pretty much beat the Lannisters right there in a defensive war fought from their capital. That was the only possible way for Robb to win. To hell with the ginger bitch, better one Stark dies than all of them.

[Charellia]

A diplomatic resolution was the only possible way for Robb to win and certainly the only way to free Sansa. If he hadn't killed Rickard Karstark the Lannisters might have started executing their own hostages.

No, a diplomatic resolution was impossible. Karstark killed a couple of very minor Lannisters. Tywin's lot aren't going to execute a hostage as valuable as Sansa for that. If he hadn't killed Karstark, he would have been able to take Casterly Rock with his much larger army, defend against Lannister reinforcements from King's Landing, and pretty much beat the Lannisters right there in a defensive war fought from their capital. That was the only possible way for Robb to win. To hell with the ginger bitch, better one Stark dies than all of them.

Characters on the show often make irrational decisions simply to reconcile major events with changes from the book. What Robb did in the show means nothing. In the book he was holding out for a diplomatic resolution to a war he couldn't win through military power alone.

All the factions in Westeros seem to have an understanding that you take care of and protect highborn hostages. If Robb had allowed multiple Lannister prisoners to be killed without repercussion the Lannisters might not have had a choice but to kill their hostages as well.

[Raurosia]

He has the likability and character development of a cardboard box, imho.

A cardboard box who kills/threatens to kill his friends and family members and bases most of his policy decisions on his lust for a cult leader.

(Renly = the best Baratheon.)

A cardboard box who has to deal with the idea of possibly being a holy messiah, balance his ideas of honor with pragmatism, both use and restrain Melisandre's power. I mean, the entire sequence with Edric Storm is a character conflict for Stannis. He's trying to weigh the outcomes against his morals and the issue is never really resolved. Plus I'd say there's a significant development from his attitude of attacking Storm's End and King's Landing because they're easy targets/his right, and attacking the wildlings to save the kingdom. A kingdom that has rejected and continues to reject him.

[Persivis]

I don't see the appeal in him. He has the likability and character development of a cardboard box, imho.

His character has developed quite a bit since we first saw him. And he is one of the few kings that would not suck.

How, precisely, has Danearys developed?

[Infected Mushroom]

ASoIAF should be required classroom reading.

I've learned more from it about life and how things work than the Bible, the Illiad and all the works of classical literature combined.

Its also quite the philosophical treatise. Definitely a few notches above Hobbes,Locke, Rousseau etc...

[United Marxist Nations]

Of course. Of the current claimants though, I am rooting for Stannis the most.

Really:

1. Stannis
2. Tommen
3. Danaerys

I don't see the appeal in him. He has the likability and character development of a cardboard box, imho.

He's the only one who went to save the Night's Watch.

[Charellia]

ASoIAF should be required classroom reading.

I've learned more from it about life and how things work than the Bible, the Illiad and all the works of classical literature combined.

Its also quite the philosophical treatise. Definitely a few notches above Hobbes,Locke, Rousseau etc...

In what way is it a philosophical treatise?

[New Frenco Empire]

I don't see the appeal in him. He has the likability and character development of a cardboard box, imho.

His character has developed quite a bit since we first saw him.

In the show maybe, although book Stannis is worse. In the books, he doesn't have any POV chapters to show off any form of development, and he just seems to be a supporting character to more important characters like Tyrion, Jon and Theon.

And he is one of the few kings that would not suck.

Debatable. He might know how to lead an army, but his PR is only roughly better than Joffrey's.

How, precisely, has Danearys developed?

Daenerys*

And to answer that, if you really have to ask that question, we must be reading different books or watching a different show.

I don't see the appeal in him. He has the likability and character development of a cardboard box, imho.

He's the only one who went to save the Night's Watch.

And the alternative to not going North would have been to wait on Dragonstone for the Lannisters to show up and finish what they started on the Blackwater. Smart, but he isn't some paradigm for humanity by saving his own skin and moving on to fresher pickings.