ASoIAF/Game of Thrones general Discussion Thread

[Tarsonis]

also, does anyone think Cersei got the most lenient death in the entire show? Everyone else gets murdered, but hers?

She deserved so much worse. This is D&D and their crush on Lena Headey. Book!Cersei's demise will be nowhere near as gentle or dignified.

Meh her death was poetic:

1. It mirrors the Rains of Castomere, only instead of drowning underground, they're buried under rubble.
2. She fought so hard to keep the throne and the castle literally came crashing down around her.
3. Jamie leads her down to the caverns, at Tyrions instruction, so both little brothers are responsible for her death, and she dies with Jamie's hands around her neck, fulfilling the prophecy.

Yes it wasn't a fan servicey death where we get to relish in our enemy's suffering, but thematically it works out quite nicely.

[Aeyariss]

Well, was expecting her to remain defiant to the end, screaming in anger as she gets dracarys-ed by the Mad Queen, but nope. *Splatted*

But I guess since her character arc tied closely with Jaime's; they both need to get that beautiful death.

[Infected Mushroom]

I also feel that it would have been more narratively satisfying to place either Rhaegal's or Missandei's death in this episode rather than the last. Having one of them die during the battle would have somewhat raised the sense of struggle (instead of just enabling the GodMode cheat for Dany's faction and let her waltz through Cersei with zero losses) and also would have made her snapping mid-battle more understandable.

This is how it could have been done:

*Rhaegal and Drogon lay waste to the Iron Fleet and the Lannister/GC forces, Dany's army advances into the city, Dany lands and waits for the bells, tension*

*Finally the bells ring, Lannister forces drop their weapons, Tyrion breathes a sigh of relief*

*Suddenly hidden SURPRISE BALLISTA lands a deadly camper shot on Rhaegal, cut to Euron at the ballista laughing like a jackass, Cersei smirking*

*As Rhaegal cries and bleeds to death to the sound of the bells of surrender, Dany realizes that following Tyrion's advise to offer her opponents a chance to spare them turned out to be a mistake AGAIN*

*NOW she has HAD IT WITH THESE MOTHERFUCKING LANNISTERS IN THIS MOTHERFUCKING CITY*

*Cue burninating*

its not as good as what they did because you're going to have a large percentage of the internet defending this action on Danny's part

the way D and D did it, no one supports her which is how it should be

remember, they are going to show Jon/Arya killing Danny next episode in a possibly exploitative manner and it has to feel thoroughly DESERVED

[Platypus Bureaucracy]

also, does anyone think Cersei got the most lenient death in the entire show? Everyone else gets murdered, but hers?

I think it's completely bizarre how many people seem to think that being buried in a collapsing building is an easy death. Granted, it's possible she was hit on the head by a bit of rubble and killed instantly, but there's no guarantee of that.

[Infected Mushroom]

But then it would not be an action of a mad queen but a somewhat more sane reaction to a terrible loss and that the city failed their promise of that ringing the bells means that they lay down their weapons.

If they want to play the mad queen card like they seem to want they have to make her do it for no good reason at all.

It would still be the actions of a man queen, just born out of tragedy when she thought she had taken the city without that much bloodshed, then she loses one of her two remaining children and just loses it. They could have easily have had her go apeshit and go wayy overboard and slaughter hundreds of thousands of people anyway. Give her a moment where after her initial burninating where she stops for a moment, looks at the corpse of Rhaegal and then she just continues.

Nah. I prefer that there's no justification at all, makes it 100% more shocking.

In what other TV series do you have a protag just SUDDENLY go school shooter mode on a town? She literally pulled a GTA out of nowhere. This is going to go down in history as one of the most controversial plays and it should...

for the ratings if for nothing else

Imagine Jon's absolute shock; I can totally imagine the Wanted Starts flashing up as Danny burns the town

[Tarsonis]

Turns out John Snow isn’t the only one with a secret name. This whole time we thought his name was Drogon, but really it was....TROGDOR!!!

[Infected Mushroom]

She deserved so much worse. This is D&D and their crush on Lena Headey. Book!Cersei's demise will be nowhere near as gentle or dignified.

Meh her death was poetic:

1. It mirrors the Rains of Castomere, only instead of drowning underground, they're buried under rubble.
2. She fought so hard to keep the throne and the castle literally came crashing down around her.
3. Jamie leads her down to the caverns, at Tyrions instruction, so both little brothers are responsible for her death, and she dies with Jamie's hands around her neck, fulfilling the prophecy.

Yes it wasn't a fan servicey death where we get to relish in our enemy's suffering, but thematically it works out quite nicely.

It in NO WAY fufills the prophecy. This is what the prophecy in the book says:

And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you

^
What happened was in NO WAY a fulfillment of the above. If anything, D and D got the go ahead from Martin to ignore the prophecies because they will prove to be false in the books too.

Jaime didn't choke Cersei to death, the rocks killed her (and he didn't wrap his hands around her throat, they were around her back).

...

However, FANTASTIC SCENE.

It's probably a top 3 in terms of the most emotional, well-acted, tragic moments of the show. It's also 100% true to their characters and their tragic arcs.

RIP Lannisters

[Infected Mushroom]

Well, was expecting her to remain defiant to the end, screaming in anger as she gets dracarys-ed by the Mad Queen, but nope. *Splatted*

But I guess since her character arc tied closely with Jaime's; they both need to get that beautiful death.

Danny was always way way way more insane than Cersei. I never believed that Cersei would burn the whole city down, that was always be a Dragon Queen type of play.

[Infected Mushroom]

also, does anyone think Cersei got the most lenient death in the entire show? Everyone else gets murdered, but hers?

She deserved so much worse. This is D&D and their crush on Lena Headey. Book!Cersei's demise will be nowhere near as gentle or dignified.

She always struck me as more of a tragic protagonist than a villain.

I think a lot of people are too hard on her for blowing up the Sept of Baelor; I mean what was she supposed to do... SHOW UP AT THE RIGGED TRIAL? The hypocritical faith and their allies got what they deserved.

[Tarsonis]

Meh her death was poetic:

1. It mirrors the Rains of Castomere, only instead of drowning underground, they're buried under rubble.
2. She fought so hard to keep the throne and the castle literally came crashing down around her.
3. Jamie leads her down to the caverns, at Tyrions instruction, so both little brothers are responsible for her death, and she dies with Jamie's hands around her neck, fulfilling the prophecy.

Yes it wasn't a fan servicey death where we get to relish in our enemy's suffering, but thematically it works out quite nicely.

It in NO WAY fufills the prophecy. This is what the prophecy in the book says:

And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you

^
What happened was in NO WAY a fulfillment of the above. If anything, D and D got the go ahead from Martin to ignore the prophecies because they will prove to be false in the books too.

Jaime didn't choke Cersei to death, the rocks killed her (and he didn't wrap his hands around her throat, they were around her back).

...

However, FANTASTIC SCENE.

It's probably a top 3 in terms of the most emotional, well-acted, tragic moments of the show. It's also 100% true to their characters and their tragic arcs.

RIP Lannisters

Yes it did. Prophecies by nature are poetic and ambiguous, and traditionally are not fulfilled in the overtly expected way. All outcomes of the prophecy were filled 1. Hands around the neck 2. Little brother causing her death. The prophecy was fulfilled, just not overly literally

[Baltenstein]

She deserved so much worse. This is D&D and their crush on Lena Headey. Book!Cersei's demise will be nowhere near as gentle or dignified.

She always struck me as more of a tragic protagonist than a villain.

I think a lot of people are too hard on her for blowing up the Sept of Baelor; I mean what was she supposed to do... SHOW UP AT THE RIGGED TRIAL? The hypocritical faith and their allies got what they deserved.

Daily reminder that Cersei was 100% responsible for the Faith becoming so powerful in the first place. And for no reason other than an almost sexually perverted possessiveness towards her own son.

Also while the trial was indeed biased...it's not as if they were trying to condemn an innocent person. She was actually 100% guilty of the charges brought up against her.

[Infected Mushroom]

It in NO WAY fufills the prophecy. This is what the prophecy in the book says:



^
What happened was in NO WAY a fulfillment of the above. If anything, D and D got the go ahead from Martin to ignore the prophecies because they will prove to be false in the books too.

Jaime didn't choke Cersei to death, the rocks killed her (and he didn't wrap his hands around her throat, they were around her back).

...

However, FANTASTIC SCENE.

It's probably a top 3 in terms of the most emotional, well-acted, tragic moments of the show. It's also 100% true to their characters and their tragic arcs.

RIP Lannisters

Yes it did. Prophecies by nature are poetic and ambiguous, and traditionally are not fulfilled in the overtly expected way. All outcomes of the prophecy were filled 1. Hands around the neck 2. Little brother causing her death. The prophecy was fulfilled, just not overly literally

I don't think we're reading the same prophecy.

There were no hands around the neck, there were hands around the back.

The prophecy, as worded, never said the little brother would "cause" the death. Just that the little brother would strangle Cersei to death around the neck (again, this did not happen). Cersei read the whole causation piece into it and it's all bogus.

The main point of the prophecy is that the Valonq would "choke the life from her"... again, Jaime did not choke her. Nor did he kill her.

The words of the prophecy don't, in any reasonable sense, match what we saw.

[Infected Mushroom]

She always struck me as more of a tragic protagonist than a villain.

I think a lot of people are too hard on her for blowing up the Sept of Baelor; I mean what was she supposed to do... SHOW UP AT THE RIGGED TRIAL? The hypocritical faith and their allies got what they deserved.

Daily reminder that Cersei was 100% responsible for the Faith becoming so powerful in the first place. And for no reason other than an almost sexually perverted possessiveness towards her own son.

Also while the trial was indeed biased...it's not as if they were trying to condemn an innocent person. She was actually 100% guilty of the charges brought up against her.

Okay but she sure as hell ended them decisively.

When we make mistakes and create monsters, we put an end to them if we can. And she sure did it and learned from it.

I also think that she had pretty good reasons to distrust the Tyrells. Margary and company WERE being very manipulative and they DID have the potential to screw over the Lannisters later. She didn't play the situation perfectly but from a position with limited information, it made sense that she might feel it makes tactical sense to get rid of the Tyrells.

[Ifreann]

She deserved so much worse. This is D&D and their crush on Lena Headey. Book!Cersei's demise will be nowhere near as gentle or dignified.

She always struck me as more of a tragic protagonist than a villain.

I think a lot of people are too hard on her for blowing up the Sept of Baelor; I mean what was she supposed to do... SHOW UP AT THE RIGGED TRIAL? The hypocritical faith and their allies got what they deserved.

The Faith Militant weren't hypocrites. And the trial wasn't rigged. Cersei was going to lose because she was guilty

[Tarsonis]

Yes it did. Prophecies by nature are poetic and ambiguous, and traditionally are not fulfilled in the overtly expected way. All outcomes of the prophecy were filled 1. Hands around the neck 2. Little brother causing her death. The prophecy was fulfilled, just not overly literally

I don't think we're reading the same prophecy.

There were no hands around the neck, there were hands around the back.

The prophecy, as worded, never said the little brother would "cause" the death. Just that the little brother would strangle Cersei to death around the neck (again, this did not happen). Cersei read the whole causation piece into it and it's all bogus.

The main point of the prophecy is that the Valonq would "choke the life from her"... again, Jaime did not choke her. Nor did he kill her.

The words of the prophecy don't, in any reasonable sense, match what we saw.

Wrong again, go rewatch the scene. His golden arm is behind her back, his actual hand is clutching her neck. While he isn’t strangling her literally, he is the one who killed her. He led her down into the caverns where she was crushed, where as she might have survived via another route. Also she’s sobbing which is another part of the prophecy I didn’t think of but is also part of it.

It’s not a beat for beat literal fulfillment, it never is. Ffs it’s like you’ve never read a single Greek tragedy before.

[Baltenstein]

Daily reminder that Cersei was 100% responsible for the Faith becoming so powerful in the first place. And for no reason other than an almost sexually perverted possessiveness towards her own son.

Also while the trial was indeed biased...it's not as if they were trying to condemn an innocent person. She was actually 100% guilty of the charges brought up against her.

Okay but she sure as hell ended them decisively.

When we make mistakes and create monsters, we put an end to them if we can. And she sure did it and learned from it.

I also think that she had pretty good reasons to distrust the Tyrells. Margary and company WERE being very manipulative and they DID have the potential to screw over the Lannisters later. She didn't play the situation perfectly but from a position with limited information, it made sense that she might feel it makes tactical sense to get rid of the Tyrells.

The thing is, the Crown needed the Tyrells (mind you this was before the Tyrells were written as having zero military strength because reasons). They needed their arms, they needed their gold and they needed their grain. So yeah, making concessions towards them was the only way to make things work. If she wanted things to work more in the interest of House Lanister she should have raised/counciled Tommen to be less of a milquetoast and more of a strong-willed ruler.
What Cersei did instead was starting an undeclared war against a House she was crucially reliant upon, by strengthening an uncontrollable institution in the eyes of which she herself was massively compromised.

[Infected Mushroom]

I don't think we're reading the same prophecy.

There were no hands around the neck, there were hands around the back.

The prophecy, as worded, never said the little brother would "cause" the death. Just that the little brother would strangle Cersei to death around the neck (again, this did not happen). Cersei read the whole causation piece into it and it's all bogus.

The main point of the prophecy is that the Valonq would "choke the life from her"... again, Jaime did not choke her. Nor did he kill her.

The words of the prophecy don't, in any reasonable sense, match what we saw.

Wrong again, go rewatch the scene. His golden arm is behind her back, his actual hand is clutching her neck. While he isn’t strangling her literally, he is the one who killed her. He led her down into the caverns where she was crushed, where as she might have survived via another route. Also she’s sobbing which is another part of the prophecy I didn’t think of but is also part of it.

It’s not a beat for beat literal fulfillment, it never is. Ffs it’s like you’ve never read a single Greek tragedy before.

he in no sense choked the life from her (which is the main decisive verb of the prophecy)

Why do you think D and D left out the literal quote about the Valonqar and never even mention it? Because they concluded as I did that it wasn’t fulfilled and would act as pointless red herring. I have little doubt this beautiful peaceful yet tragic ending came from Martin himself.

[Infected Mushroom]

Okay but she sure as hell ended them decisively.

When we make mistakes and create monsters, we put an end to them if we can. And she sure did it and learned from it.

I also think that she had pretty good reasons to distrust the Tyrells. Margary and company WERE being very manipulative and they DID have the potential to screw over the Lannisters later. She didn't play the situation perfectly but from a position with limited information, it made sense that she might feel it makes tactical sense to get rid of the Tyrells.

The thing is, the Crown needed the Tyrells (mind you this was before the Tyrells were written as having zero military strength because reasons). They needed their arms, they needed their gold and they needed their grain. So yeah, making concessions towards them was the only way to make things work. If she wanted things to work more in the interest of House Lanister she should have raised/counciled Tommen to be less of a milquetoast and more of a strong-willed ruler.
What Cersei did instead was starting an undeclared war against a House she was crucially reliant upon, by strengthening an uncontrollable institution in the eyes of which she herself was massively compromised.

I mean, she very reasonably believed the Tyrells were winning a battle of influence over her son, the King and would later eclipse the Lannisters in power, influence and wealth

[Tarsonis]

Wrong again, go rewatch the scene. His golden arm is behind her back, his actual hand is clutching her neck. While he isn’t strangling her literally, he is the one who killed her. He led her down into the caverns where she was crushed, where as she might have survived via another route. Also she’s sobbing which is another part of the prophecy I didn’t think of but is also part of it.

It’s not a beat for beat literal fulfillment, it never is. Ffs it’s like you’ve never read a single Greek tragedy before.

he in no sense choked the life from her (which is the main decisive verb of the prophecy)

Why do you think D and D left out the literal quote about the Valonqar and never even mention it? Because they concluded as I did that it wasn’t fulfilled and would act as pointless red herring. I have little doubt this beautiful peaceful yet tragic ending came from Martin himself.

coming from Martin =\= not fulfilling the prophecy. Also yes that is the word used, but again prophecies don’t usually workout the way they’re overtly expected to. They’re poetic and ambiguous by design. Getting caught up on the literal wording isn’t proper interpretation. I mean her tears didn’t drown her either.

[Baltenstein]

The thing is, the Crown needed the Tyrells (mind you this was before the Tyrells were written as having zero military strength because reasons). They needed their arms, they needed their gold and they needed their grain. So yeah, making concessions towards them was the only way to make things work. If she wanted things to work more in the interest of House Lanister she should have raised/counciled Tommen to be less of a milquetoast and more of a strong-willed ruler.
What Cersei did instead was starting an undeclared war against a House she was crucially reliant upon, by strengthening an uncontrollable institution in the eyes of which she herself was massively compromised.

I mean, she very reasonably believed the Tyrells were winning a battle of influence over her son, the King and would later eclipse the Lannisters in power, influence and wealth

You're not adressing what I said. The Crown needed the Tyrells and was in no position to confront them directly. It's the very reason why Tywin married her to Loras in the first place - House Lannister simply couldn't challenge the Tyrells directly so they needed to subjugate them by being the dominant part inside their marriage-alliance, both in the relationship between Tommen and Margeary and between Cersei and Loras. Cersei refused to even attempt something in regards to the latter and miserably failed to enable Tommen in the former, so if Olenna and Marge are better players then her, it's her own fault for not being as clever and/or capable as she fancies herself to be.

I mean what end-game did you picture if the Faith hadn't turned against Cersei herself? Loras gets executed, Margaery gets locked away forever and then Olenna meekly accepts Cersei's superiority and bows before her?

[Infected Mushroom]

he in no sense choked the life from her (which is the main decisive verb of the prophecy)

Why do you think D and D left out the literal quote about the Valonqar and never even mention it? Because they concluded as I did that it wasn’t fulfilled and would act as pointless red herring. I have little doubt this beautiful peaceful yet tragic ending came from Martin himself.

coming from Martin =\= not fulfilling the prophecy. Also yes that is the word used, but again prophecies don’t usually workout the way they’re overtly expected to. They’re poetic and ambiguous by design. Getting caught up on the literal wording isn’t proper interpretation.

Here its a case of it going against the literal text of the prophecy (form AND substance).

There was no Valonqar that choked Cersei to death. It did not happen.

Hence why D and D were comfortable leaving out that prophecy.

Saying this is a fulfilment of the Valonqar prophecy (when no little brother choked Cersei to death on screen) would be as strange as saying Arya Stark fulfilled the Azor Ahai prophecy. The elements weren't there and the key actions weren't there. Arya sacrificed no one for instance.

Martin is clearly going for a Prophecies are BS or prophecies are so prone to mistranslation when mortals read them that its probably best to ignore them

[Infected Mushroom]

I mean, she very reasonably believed the Tyrells were winning a battle of influence over her son, the King and would later eclipse the Lannisters in power, influence and wealth

You're not adressing what I said. The Crown needed the Tyrells and was in no position to confront them directly. It's the very reason why Tywin married her to Loras in the first place - House Lannister simply couldn't challenge the Tyrells directly so they needed to subjugate them by being the dominant part inside their marriage-alliance, both in the relationship between Tommen and Margeary and between Cersei and Loras. Cersei refused to even attempt something in regards to the latter and miserably failed to enable Tommen in the former, so if Olenna and Marge are better players then her, it's her own fault for not being as clever and/or capable as she fancies herself to be.

I mean what end-game did you picture if the Faith hadn't turned against Cersei herself? Loras gets executed, Margaery gets locked away forever and then Olenna meekly accepts Cersei's superiority and bows before her?

The idea was that Olenna would be intimidated and back down from the Crown. Either that or Cersei would start a war and wipe the floor with the Tyrells as she later did.

Remember, at that point there wasn't much of a Dragon Queen threat.

If she controlled the Crown, she could appoint a new Warden of the South to exploit the resources of the Reach regardless.

[Ifreann]

The thing is, the Crown needed the Tyrells (mind you this was before the Tyrells were written as having zero military strength because reasons). They needed their arms, they needed their gold and they needed their grain. So yeah, making concessions towards them was the only way to make things work. If she wanted things to work more in the interest of House Lanister she should have raised/counciled Tommen to be less of a milquetoast and more of a strong-willed ruler.
What Cersei did instead was starting an undeclared war against a House she was crucially reliant upon, by strengthening an uncontrollable institution in the eyes of which she herself was massively compromised.

I mean, she very reasonably believed the Tyrells were winning a battle of influence over her son, the King and would later eclipse the Lannisters in power, influence and wealth

Which wouldn't matter if she allied herself to the Tyrells, as Tywin allied their house to the Targaryens, and then the Baratheons.

[Tarsonis]

coming from Martin =\= not fulfilling the prophecy. Also yes that is the word used, but again prophecies don’t usually workout the way they’re overtly expected to. They’re poetic and ambiguous by design. Getting caught up on the literal wording isn’t proper interpretation.

Here its a case of it going against the literal text of the prophecy (form AND substance).

There was no Valonqar that choked Cersei to death. It did not happen.

Hence why D and D were comfortable leaving out that prophecy.

Saying this is a fulfilment of the Valonqar prophecy (when no little brother choked Cersei to death on screen) would be as strange as saying Arya Stark fulfilled the Azor Ahai prophecy. The elements weren't there and the key actions weren't there. Arya sacrificed no one for instance.

Martin is clearly going for a Prophecies are BS or prophecies are so prone to mistranslation when mortals read them that its probably best to ignore them

wow not only are you wrong but you even prove me right. You’re arguing that it didn’t happen as literally described and then claim that prophecies are so prone to mortal mistranslation they’re useless. It’s almost like you’re continuously mistranslating the prophecy. I’ve told you 5 times now why it doesn’t fucking matter that Jamie didn’t literally strangle her, but you for some reason you can’t seem to grasp that simple concept. I can’t drill through the wood. So I’m done.

Also the Azor Ahai prophecy never says that the reborn Azor Ahai will have to sacrifice anyone, only that they will pull a sword out of flames, and that sword will be light bringer..

.

[Infected Mushroom]

I mean, she very reasonably believed the Tyrells were winning a battle of influence over her son, the King and would later eclipse the Lannisters in power, influence and wealth

Which wouldn't matter if she allied herself to the Tyrells, as Tywin allied their house to the Targaryens, and then the Baratheons.

The Tyrells in the show WERE manipulative players who were trying to get a very very firm grip on the King though

they even had the audacity to poison one of Cersei's children (though she didn't know about it); I would say that keeping them around wouldn't have been very wise either