ASoIAF/Game of Thrones general Discussion Thread

[Atholl]

Why though?





Um, Dorne has literally in a civil dispute of their own since there's actually no one left to rule and I don't remember Oberyn and Ellaria having a son. and with the Iron Isle, if Theon if he has any remorse to atone for his sins which he hadn't fully atoned for then surely he would convince his sister right but I know his sister won't budge but hey the Irol Isle already lost all of their fighting powers


SURE THEY DO, THAT'S AFTER ALL ONE OF THE BASIC PRINCIPLE OF MACHIAVELLIAN POLITICS

1.) In Episode 3 of this season there was a line mentioning that the New Prince of Dorn has sworn himself to Dany. He even appears at the Council in the finale.

2.) I don't think you know what Machiavellian Politics means.
With Bran, they get a King who probably wont really be all that active, aside from scholarly or judicial issues. They will likely be able to mind their own business and rule as they wish.

Not only this, but an elected Monarchy opens the possibility for their own house to sit on the Throne when Bran dies, provided they can win the vote.

Similarly, the Monarch now also has to be approved by the Noblemen of the country, meaning he is in a sense beholden to them and their wishes due to their role in placing him there.

All in all, an elected Monarch is way better for vassals than a hereditary one.

[Fedel]

Really don't see why the Westerosi lords feel the need to honor the agreement after [spoier]Dany's forces go back to Essos.[/spoiler]

Actually, they're not really honoring it. Jon's "banishment to the Wall" in reality means that he can go and live with the Wildlings as a free man, which is what he actually wants for himself.

What matters to everybody, including Jon himself, is that he is out of the picture.

Didn't seem that way to me. It seems to me Grey Worm forced their hand with the exception of Yara. Not that they necessarily would have chosen Jon as their king, but I never got the sense they cared about ensuring he COULDN'T rule.

[Atholl]

Because there are still those in Westeros who hate Jon.

The Iron Islands for one appear to be still loyal to Dany, even after everything. And rather than get back into a massive fight/war, why not stick with the agreement who actually could keep the peace?

The Iron Islands are made up of Yara and a dozen pirates at this point. Sansa rules in the North and Bran rules the West. The other Westerosi lords have no interaction with the Iron islands outside of defending themselves from their raids on their coastlines. Yara couldn't do anything even if she wanted to.

Once Grey Worm and the rest went back to Essos they never had a chance at taking Westeros ( or even doing significant damage to it ). The Dothraki have no reason to follow him other then to get back to Essos and it's not as if Grey Worm has the resources necessary to build a fleet and sail back. Not one that could defend itself from a rebuilt Westerosi fleet.

Point but why risk another war?
Dorne too is sworn to Dany, and while all the realms are depleted, why risk another war? Especially when Jon does not want the throne, and they could all agree on the plan with Bran.

[Baltenstein]

Actually, they're not really honoring it. Jon's "banishment to the Wall" in reality means that he can go and live with the Wildlings as a free man, which is what he actually wants for himself.

What matters to everybody, including Jon himself, is that he is out of the picture.

Didn't seem that way to me. It seems to me Grey Worm forced their hand with the exception of Yara. Not that necessarily would have chosen Jon as their king, but I never got the sense they cared about ensuring he COULDN'T rule.

I think that's how they sold it to Grey Worm (Let's be honest, it's not much of a challenge to fool the Unsullied in matters of Westerosi politics). But really, which Westerosi lord is truly unhappy with how events turned out? Everybody, most importantly Jon himself, were in agreement that he had to be removed from the big picture somehow.

[Juristonia]

The Iron Islands are made up of Yara and a dozen pirates at this point. Sansa rules in the North and Bran rules the West. The other Westerosi lords have no interaction with the Iron islands outside of defending themselves from their raids on their coastlines. Yara couldn't do anything even if she wanted to.

Once Grey Worm and the rest went back to Essos they never had a chance at taking Westeros ( or even doing significant damage to it ). The Dothraki have no reason to follow him other then to get back to Essos and it's not as if Grey Worm has the resources necessary to build a fleet and sail back. Not one that could defend itself from a rebuilt Westerosi fleet.

Point but why risk another war?
Dorne too is sworn to Dany, and while all the realms are depleted, why risk another war? Especially when Jon does not want the throne, and they could all agree on the plan with Bran.

Yeah, "Hey guys. I know we just had several years of war bollocks with dragons and zombies and all sorts of weird shit, but we kinda have to have some more of that because we don't want to send this one guy off to the wall" doesn't really sound like a good policy to roll with.

[Fedel]

The Iron Islands are made up of Yara and a dozen pirates at this point. Sansa rules in the North and Bran rules the West. The other Westerosi lords have no interaction with the Iron islands outside of defending themselves from their raids on their coastlines. Yara couldn't do anything even if she wanted to.

Once Grey Worm and the rest went back to Essos they never had a chance at taking Westeros ( or even doing significant damage to it ). The Dothraki have no reason to follow him other then to get back to Essos and it's not as if Grey Worm has the resources necessary to build a fleet and sail back. Not one that could defend itself from a rebuilt Westerosi fleet.

Point but why risk another war?
Dorne too is sworn to Dany, and while all the realms are depleted, why risk another war? Especially when Jon does not want the throne, and they could all agree on the plan with Bran.

Dorne sent a piece of paper proclaiming their loyalty to her the same way Sansa declared hers. Doesn't mean anything except that they feared the claimant with a dragons and a rather large army and hated Cersei. They have no reason to care now that she's dead.

They wouldn't have to. I'm saying why should they care what Jon does ( as long as he doesn't disturb the peace ) after Dany's forces depart. The finale pretended that Jon was trapped in this position when, reasonably speaking, he really wouldn't be.

[Fedel]

Didn't seem that way to me. It seems to me Grey Worm forced their hand with the exception of Yara. Not that necessarily would have chosen Jon as their king, but I never got the sense they cared about ensuring he COULDN'T rule.

I think that's how they sold it to Grey Worm (Let's be honest, it's not much of a challenge to fool the Unsullied in matters of Westerosi politics). But really, which Westerosi lord is truly unhappy with how events turned out? Everybody, most importantly Jon himself, were in agreement that he had to be removed from the big picture somehow.

Oh I don't think they're unhappy. I just didn't like that show tried to sell the idea of Jon's exile as heavily as it did.

Was Jon in agreement with that? I mean, he took it gracefully but was that really what he wanted?

[Egalhorne]

that's the thing I'm afraid is that people would rebel in each of the lord's territory but meh, that argument for the people of Kings Landing is now invalid since there are literally no living citizens in Kings Landing atm.

Also, he's not the head of state, just a decoration since he is literally the rightful heir to the throne so why wouldn't they acknowledge it but elect a useless crippled boy who calls himself a bird to the highest position in Westeros

Because Jon is in the same position as Tyrion but even worse. If he takes power in an way, the Unsullied and Dothraki go on a rampage, which means more war and death. He murdered Dany, and even if she deserved it, Grey Worm is not about to just let him go free.

Grey Worm basically gave three options.

Execute Jon and the Unsullied go home.
Banish Jon to the Nights Watch, and we go home.
Keep him around, and we start killing fools.

Can anyone please seriously tell me what sorcery did they use to get their numbers back especially revive the Dothraki Horde for as far as I can remember the Dothraki horsemen got annihilated during the Battle of Winterfell, as far as I can follow this is Game Of Thrones-TV Series not the Game Of Thrones ASOIAF mod for Attila Total War where you can just retrain you units and got their numbers full in the next turn.

[Fedel]

Point but why risk another war?
Dorne too is sworn to Dany, and while all the realms are depleted, why risk another war? Especially when Jon does not want the throne, and they could all agree on the plan with Bran.

Yeah, "Hey guys. I know we just had several years of war bollocks with dragons and zombies and all sorts of weird shit, but we kinda have to have some more of that because we don't want to send this one guy off to the wall" doesn't really sound like a good policy to roll with.

That's not what anybody's saying.

[Juristonia]

Can anyone please seriously tell me what sorcery did they use to get their numbers back especially revive the Dothraki Horde for as far as I can remember the Dothraki horsemen got annihilated during the Battle of Winterfell, as far as I can follow this is Game Of Thrones-TV Series not the Game Of Thrones ASOIAF mod for Attila Total War where you can just retrain you units and got their numbers full in the next turn.

They cast an ancient spell called "TVwouldkindasuckifeverythingmadeperfectsenseandeveryonewasalwayslogical"

[Juristonia]

That's not what anybody's saying.

But it is what they would be risking.

[Fedel]

Can anyone please seriously tell me what sorcery did they use to get their numbers back especially revive the Dothraki Horde for as far as I can remember the Dothraki horsemen got annihilated during the Battle of Winterfell, as far as I can follow this is Game Of Thrones-TV Series not the Game Of Thrones ASOIAF mod for Attila Total War where you can just retrain you units and got their numbers full in the next turn.

"TVwouldkindasuckifeverythingmadeperfectsenseandeveryonewasalwayslogical"

It doesn't need to always be "perfectly logical" because real life isn't always "perfectly logical." It does however need to be internally consistent.

[Fedel]

That's not what anybody's saying.

But it is what they would be risking.

It's really not for the reasons I stated above.

[Atholl]

Because Jon is in the same position as Tyrion but even worse. If he takes power in an way, the Unsullied and Dothraki go on a rampage, which means more war and death. He murdered Dany, and even if she deserved it, Grey Worm is not about to just let him go free.

Grey Worm basically gave three options.

Execute Jon and the Unsullied go home.
Banish Jon to the Nights Watch, and we go home.
Keep him around, and we start killing fools.

Can anyone please seriously tell me what sorcery did they use to get their numbers back especially revive the Dothraki Horde for as far as I can remember the Dothraki horsemen got annihilated during the Battle of Winterfell, as far as I can follow this is Game Of Thrones-TV Series not the Game Of Thrones ASOIAF mod for Attila Total War where you can just retrain you units and got their numbers full in the next turn.

You didnt answer my argument.

If we are going to question how many Unsullied/Dothraki survived, we should do the same with the Northern and Valeman armies. I mean, they were at Winterfell too, and appeared to take plenty of casualties.

The point is that Jons fate had to be exile, which, lets be clear, is kinda what he wanted. He did not want the Throne. He did not want to be a figurehead. And making him one would have incited another War with Daenerys loyalists like Yara, Grey Worm, etc.

[Baltenstein]

But it is what they would be risking.

It's really not for the reasons I stated above.

Ask the question the other way around - why would anybody try to undo the agreement on Jon's "banishment"? What motive could he have? The only one I can think of who could want Jon back in the game is Sansa, but she's the ruler of a foreign country now - she doesn't get any say in the affairs of the Realm anymore.

[Atholl]

Point but why risk another war?
Dorne too is sworn to Dany, and while all the realms are depleted, why risk another war? Especially when Jon does not want the throne, and they could all agree on the plan with Bran.

Dorne sent a piece of paper proclaiming their loyalty to her the same way Sansa declared hers. Doesn't mean anything except that they feared the claimant with a dragons and a rather large army and hated Cersei. They have no reason to care now that she's dead.

They wouldn't have to. I'm saying why should they care what Jon does ( as long as he doesn't disturb the peace ) after Dany's forces depart. The finale pretended that Jon was trapped in this position when, reasonably speaking, he really wouldn't be.

Because Jon is honourable and knows that by killing Dany, even if it is right, recquires punishment. He swore and oath to her. He loved her. I dont think he wanted to do anything but what occured.

[Juristonia]

But it is what they would be risking.

It's really not for the reasons I stated above.

You didn't state anything that rules out the possibility.
Why would you risk it, even if it's unlikely (in your eyes) to happen, when sending Jon back to the wall is such a minor decision to make, considering the possible consequences.

[Egalhorne]

"TVwouldkindasuckifeverythingmadeperfectsenseandeveryonewasalwayslogical"

It doesn't need to always be "perfectly logical" because real life isn't always "perfectly logical." It does however need to be internally consistent.

And suddenly GoT now has the highest tier of magical ability to revive a full army without any side effects of becoming an undead which is higher of what Gandalf or Voldemort & Harry with the Elder Wand can.

[Juristonia]

It doesn't need to always be "perfectly logical" because real life isn't always "perfectly logical." It does however need to be internally consistent.

And suddenly GoT now has the highest tier of magical ability to revive a full army without any side effects of becoming an undead which is higher of what Gandalf or Voldemort & Harry with the Elder Wand can.

It is what it is, mate.
The writing's been shit on occasion.
Learn to live with it.

[Ethel mermania]

Because Jon is in the same position as Tyrion but even worse. If he takes power in an way, the Unsullied and Dothraki go on a rampage, which means more war and death. He murdered Dany, and even if she deserved it, Grey Worm is not about to just let him go free.

Grey Worm basically gave three options.

Execute Jon and the Unsullied go home.
Banish Jon to the Nights Watch, and we go home.
Keep him around, and we start killing fools.

Can anyone please seriously tell me what sorcery did they use to get their numbers back especially revive the Dothraki Horde for as far as I can remember the Dothraki horsemen got annihilated during the Battle of Winterfell, as far as I can follow this is Game Of Thrones-TV Series not the Game Of Thrones ASOIAF mod for Attila Total War where you can just retrain you units and got their numbers full in the next turn.

much like dany forgetting about euron's fleet after worrying about it in a council of war the day before, the unsullied and dothraki simply forgot they were killed.

[Egalhorne]

In any case, our watch has really ended, disappointing as it seems for me and for some as the finale was too rushed and this season has a lot of incomprehensible craps going here and there and most of the personality of the characters that they've built up over the past season was thrown out of the window for this.

The only thing I argue is the unreasonable acceptance to change that is easily accepted and implemented in Westeros, I know Jon didn't want the throne and I still wanted for Daenerys to sit on the damn thing but D&D rushed it, screwed many things, screwed the characters personalities and ended up giving us this.

We can only hope for a BETTER WRITING AND BETTER ENDING in the books and a proper explanation for that high tier magic spell that was used to revive the Dothraki Horde and restore the numbers of the Unsullied as they came to Westeros if G.R.R Martin were to use that same hax and I do hope he won't.

[Atholl]

In any case, our watch has really ended, disappointing as it seems for me and for some as the finale was too rushed and this season has a lot of incomprehensible craps going here and there and most of the personality of the characters that they've built up over the past season was thrown out of the window for this.

The only thing I argue is the unreasonable acceptance to change that is easily accepted and implemented in Westeros, I know Jon didn't want the throne and I still wanted for Daenerys to sit on the damn thing but D&D rushed it, screwed many things, screwed the characters personalities and ended up giving us this.

We can only hope for a BETTER WRITING AND BETTER ENDING in the books and a proper explanation for that high tier magic spell that was used to revive the Dothraki Horde and restore the numbers of the Unsullied as they came to Westeros if G.R.R Martin were to use that same hax and I do hope he won't.

Tbh its not that big of a change. The realm is still governed by a Monarch, with a small council, and there are presumably still Lord's Paramount like Edmure and Bronn, with lower Lords and Knights beneath them.

The only difference his the inheritance laws of the realm, not the organization of the realm itself.

[Fedel]

It's really not for the reasons I stated above.

Ask the question the other way around - why would anybody try to undo the agreement on Jon's "banishment"? What motive could he have? The only one I can think of who could want Jon back in the game is Sansa, but she's the ruler of a foreign country now - she doesn't get any say in the affairs of the Realm anymore.

I mean, the Wall is technically within the North and the area beyond it is not under Westeros's jurisdiction.

[Fedel]

It's really not for the reasons I stated above.

You didn't state anything that rules out the possibility.
Why would you risk it, even if it's unlikely (in your eyes) to happen, when sending Jon back to the wall is such a minor decision to make, considering the possible consequences.

They wouldn't prior to

the departure of Dany's forces

but they have no reason care or enforce it after the fact.

[Atholl]

Ask the question the other way around - why would anybody try to undo the agreement on Jon's "banishment"? What motive could he have? The only one I can think of who could want Jon back in the game is Sansa, but she's the ruler of a foreign country now - she doesn't get any say in the affairs of the Realm anymore.

I mean, the Wall is technically within the North and the area beyond it is not under Westero's jurisdiction.

Technically, its not in the North. The Wall is under the direct control of the Nights Watch, and it controls lands in the Gift and New Gift to provide farm land for sustenance.

Sansa has no power in Nights Watch lands. Nor does Bran, or anyone who has claimed the crown through the series.