ASoIAF/Game of Thrones general Discussion Thread

[Infected Mushroom]

Here its a case of it going against the literal text of the prophecy (form AND substance).

There was no Valonqar that choked Cersei to death. It did not happen.

Hence why D and D were comfortable leaving out that prophecy.

Saying this is a fulfilment of the Valonqar prophecy (when no little brother choked Cersei to death on screen) would be as strange as saying Arya Stark fulfilled the Azor Ahai prophecy. The elements weren't there and the key actions weren't there. Arya sacrificed no one for instance.

Martin is clearly going for a Prophecies are BS or prophecies are so prone to mistranslation when mortals read them that its probably best to ignore them

wow not only are you wrong but you even prove me right. You’re arguing that it didn’t happen as literally described and then claim that prophecies are so prone to mortal mistranslation they’re useless. It’s almost like you’re continuously mistranslating the prophecy. I’ve told you 5 times now why it doesn’t fucking matter that Jamie didn’t literally strangle her, but you for some reason you can’t seem to grasp that simple concept. I can’t drill through the wood. So I’m done.

Also the Azor Ahai prophecy never says that the reborn Azor Ahai will have to sacrifice anyone, only that they will pull a sword out of flames, and that sword will be light bringer..

.

there's no much deviation its essentially a different prophecy because there was no literal or metaphorical choking

[Baltenstein]

You're not adressing what I said. The Crown needed the Tyrells and was in no position to confront them directly. It's the very reason why Tywin married her to Loras in the first place - House Lannister simply couldn't challenge the Tyrells directly so they needed to subjugate them by being the dominant part inside their marriage-alliance, both in the relationship between Tommen and Margeary and between Cersei and Loras. Cersei refused to even attempt something in regards to the latter and miserably failed to enable Tommen in the former, so if Olenna and Marge are better players then her, it's her own fault for not being as clever and/or capable as she fancies herself to be.

I mean what end-game did you picture if the Faith hadn't turned against Cersei herself? Loras gets executed, Margaery gets locked away forever and then Olenna meekly accepts Cersei's superiority and bows before her?

The idea was that Olenna would be intimidated and back down from the Crown. Either that or Cersei would start a war and wipe the floor with the Tyrells as she later did.

And this sort of approach was portrayed, in-universe, as being colossally moronic. It's the exact same line of thinking as Joffrey's "If I execute Ned Stark and brutalize Sansa, the Northerners will become afraid of what a tough mo'fo I am and kneel before my awesomeness". We saw what actually happened, the entire united North roaring for vengeance and tearing through the Lannister lines, with Joffrey only surviving the war thanks to Tywin's and Tyrion's sheer skill and a massive dose of luck. (And also Robb Stark being a standard fantasy hero in the wrong genre unfortunately)

You are describing a policy that was portrayed by the story itself as being self-defeating and stupid. Cersei herself was acknowledged, in-universe, as being massively stupid for pursuing this ccourse of action. Open war with House Tyrell would have devastated the Crown and the Lannisters (again: I am making this argument from point in the timeline before the show writers arbitrarily opened the cheat console and reduced Tyrell military strength to 0.0), starved KL and turned the populace (whose adoration for Margaery was a key reason for providing stability to the realm) even more against Cersei. And neither Tywin nor Tyrion would have been around to fix her mess.

[Tarsonis]

wow not only are you wrong but you even prove me right. You’re arguing that it didn’t happen as literally described and then claim that prophecies are so prone to mortal mistranslation they’re useless. It’s almost like you’re continuously mistranslating the prophecy. I’ve told you 5 times now why it doesn’t fucking matter that Jamie didn’t literally strangle her, but you for some reason you can’t seem to grasp that simple concept. I can’t drill through the wood. So I’m done.

Also the Azor Ahai prophecy never says that the reborn Azor Ahai will have to sacrifice anyone, only that they will pull a sword out of flames, and that sword will be light bringer..

.

there's no much deviation its essentially a different prophecy because there was no literal or metaphorical choking

there doesn’t fucking have to be. Ffs. All that’s necessary is that the Volanqar be responsible for her death! He holds he by the neck, and she dies with him. It doesn’t matter that he did not forcibly asphyxiate her, they were close enough to the lines of the prophecy. She’s crying, he has his hand around her neck, she dies and it’s jamies fault. As far as prophecy fulfillments go, that’s closer than most. You’re just being willfully obstinate at this point.

[Ifreann]

Which wouldn't matter if she allied herself to the Tyrells, as Tywin allied their house to the Targaryens, and then the Baratheons.

The Tyrells in the show WERE manipulative players who were trying to get a very very firm grip on the King though

And if the Lannisters were their allies then that wouldn't be a problem for the Lannisters.

they even had the audacity to poison one of Cersei's children (though she didn't know about it); I would say that keeping them around wouldn't have been very wise either

And Jaime stabbed Aerys Targaryen in the back.

[Ethel mermania]

Tiredness might work as an excuse to forget plotlines when you're just someone who watches the show... NOT WHEN YOU'RE THE PEOPLE WHO WRITE IT.

Ah yes, bcoz people who write for a living on big television series with massive budgets, a large array of characters, lots of exotic locations, and the failure of the author to finish the source material thereby forcing them to come up with all sorts of ideas on their own - ah yes, they don't get tired at all.

Martin told them how it ended when he sold it to HBO, it was part of the deal, the concern was he might die before the series ended, not that he would stop writing it.... but here we are.

[Otira]

It would still be the actions of a man queen, just born out of tragedy when she thought she had taken the city without that much bloodshed, then she loses one of her two remaining children and just loses it. They could have easily have had her go apeshit and go wayy overboard and slaughter hundreds of thousands of people anyway. Give her a moment where after her initial burninating where she stops for a moment, looks at the corpse of Rhaegal and then she just continues.

Nah. I prefer that there's no justification at all, makes it 100% more shocking.

In what other TV series do you have a protag just SUDDENLY go school shooter mode on a town? She literally pulled a GTA out of nowhere. This is going to go down in history as one of the most controversial plays and it should...

for the ratings if for nothing else

Imagine Jon's absolute shock; I can totally imagine the Wanted Starts flashing up as Danny burns the town

I mean, out of nowhere?

She's been talking about doing this for 7 seasons.



This is just the culmination of her victim complex, entitlement, and madness.

[Infected Mushroom]

Nah. I prefer that there's no justification at all, makes it 100% more shocking.

In what other TV series do you have a protag just SUDDENLY go school shooter mode on a town? She literally pulled a GTA out of nowhere. This is going to go down in history as one of the most controversial plays and it should...

for the ratings if for nothing else

Imagine Jon's absolute shock; I can totally imagine the Wanted Starts flashing up as Danny burns the town

I mean, out of nowhere?

She's been talking about doing this for 7 seasons.



This is just the culmination of her victim complex, entitlement, and madness.

I'm surprised when she said that people didn't object at the character-stated-Spoiler

[Infected Mushroom]

there's no much deviation its essentially a different prophecy because there was no literal or metaphorical choking

there doesn’t fucking have to be. Ffs. All that’s necessary is that the Volanqar be responsible for her death! He holds he by the neck, and she dies with him. It doesn’t matter that he did not forcibly asphyxiate her, they were close enough to the lines of the prophecy. She’s crying, he has his hand around her neck, she dies and it’s jamies fault. As far as prophecy fulfillments go, that’s closer than most. You’re just being willfully obstinate at this point.

As far as I'm concerned, if no little brother choked Cersei to death with their hands (that choking causing the death)... then it was not fulfilled

I think you don't agree because you're taking a very very liberal interpretation of the prophecy

[Infected Mushroom]

The Tyrells in the show WERE manipulative players who were trying to get a very very firm grip on the King though

And if the Lannisters were their allies then that wouldn't be a problem for the Lannisters.

they even had the audacity to poison one of Cersei's children (though she didn't know about it); I would say that keeping them around wouldn't have been very wise either

And Jaime stabbed Aerys Targaryen in the back.

Cersei didn't really have any reason to trust the Tyrells but she had plenty of reason to distrust them, I mean just look at the obvious power plays involving the King

After Tywin's death, if Margery had been with Tommen for even just a bit longer a very likely outcome would have been Tommen ordering Cersei back to Casterley Rock (it nearly happened)

[Holy Tedalonia]

Guys we need to talk about Game of Thrones biggest flaw.

Why the hell was there a stray horse at the end of Season 8, episode 5?

[Ethel mermania]

Guys we need to talk about Game of Thrones biggest flaw.

Why the hell was there a stray horse at the end of Season 8, episode 5?

Uber

[Holy Tedalonia]

Guys we need to talk about Game of Thrones biggest flaw.

Why the hell was there a stray horse at the end of Season 8, episode 5?

Uber

Dear lord, what has game of thrones become now...

[Baltenstein]

Guys we need to talk about Game of Thrones biggest flaw.

Why the hell was there a stray horse at the end of Season 8, episode 5?

I think that was supposed be commander Harry Strickland's horse.
Why it was waiting for Arya in the middle of the destroyed city, I have no idea.

"Run, Shadowfax! Show them the meaning of haste!"

[Holy Tedalonia]

Guys we need to talk about Game of Thrones biggest flaw.

Why the hell was there a stray horse at the end of Season 8, episode 5?

I think that was supposed be commander Harry Strickland's horse.
Why it was waiting for Arya in the middle of the destroyed city, I have no idea.

"Run, Shadowfax! Show them the meaning of haste!"

Overall it has shattered my world of nitty gritty detail for GoT. I feel like its just some soap opera now.

This episode was, so bad that even my grandmother, (a person loving the season so far) has turned against the episode.

[Des-Bal]

Guys we need to talk about Game of Thrones biggest flaw.

Why the hell was there a stray horse at the end of Season 8, episode 5?

Because someone went to film school and after learning about symbolism but before learning about subtlety decided a woman covered in ashes and blood mounting a pale horse in a burning city would be cool.

also, does anyone think Cersei got the most lenient death in the entire show? Everyone else gets murdered, but hers?

I was mostly fine with it. Her confidence and her allies being scrubbed away with horrific efficiency left her to quickly lose the "I am so clever and in control" facade she's been projecting and die sobbing in a basement in the arms of a man whose death she ordered. She wasn't captured and executed as a queen, she wasn't assassinated like a scheming rival, she died like a rat crushed under rubble like so many other nameless people. In those final moments everything else melted away and the fears, insecurities, and weakness that had always driven her were all she had as she died helpless and unimportant.

[Des-Bal]

Ah yes, bcoz people who write for a living on big television series with massive budgets, a large array of characters, lots of exotic locations, and the failure of the author to finish the source material thereby forcing them to come up with all sorts of ideas on their own - ah yes, they don't get tired at all.

Then hey should have been fired. It matters THAT they fucked up not WHY they fucked up.

Emelia Clarke had two fucking aneurysms and she's been an absolute soldier.

[Holy Tedalonia]

also, does anyone think Cersei got the most lenient death in the entire show? Everyone else gets murdered, but hers?

I was mostly fine with it. Her confidence and her allies being scrubbed away with horrific efficiency left her to quickly lose the "I am so clever and in control" facade she's been projecting and die sobbing in a basement in the arms of a man whose death she ordered. She wasn't captured and executed as a queen, she wasn't assassinated like a scheming rival, she died like a rat crushed under rubble like so many other nameless people. In those final moments everything else melted away and the fears, insecurities, and weakness that had always driven her were all she had as she died helpless and unimportant.

Yeah, Im fine with it too, but still salty that Dany had no goddamn reason to burn the city. I mean, if you think about it, wouldnt the burning of the Red Keep suffice? We had civilians being brought in the Red Keep as 'hostages', We got Angry Dany who really wants to kill Cersei, and what better way to reveal tyrannical reformist then to burn the castle of kings landing the Red Keep in a show of might and fire? But no lets make her simply despicable rather then unlikable.

But no, I guess Dany's going to spend time killing sweet children rather then target her number one political enemy. Hell, I think the innocents in Red Keep had a more likely chance to survive given how she pelted those streets rather then the Red Keeps courtyard.

[Des-Bal]

Yeah, Im fine with it too, but still salty that Dany had no goddamn reason to burn the city. I mean, if you think about it, wouldnt the burning of the Red Keep suffice? We had civilians being brought in the Red Keep as hostages, We got Angry Dany who really wants to kill Cersei, and what better way to reveal tyrannical reformist then to burn the castle of kings landing the Red Keep in a show of might and fire? But no lets make her simply despicable rather then unlikable.

But no, I guess Dany's going to spend time killing sweet children rather then target her number one political enemy. Hell, I think the innocents in Red Keep had a more likely chance to survive given how she pelted those streets rather then the Red Keeps courtyard.

I got what they were going for. She'd refused to attack kings landing for the sake of the people living there and then as she started to see it as a more valid option she was consistently counseled away from it. One of her children was killed and despite that her first act was to offer a chance at bloodless surrender that was greeted with the murder of her closest friend and advisor. Instead of heralding her as their savior and rightful queen like in Mereen the people were happy enough to hide behind the walls and protection of her mortal enemy. Victory was almost almost effortless and after all the pain and hardship the enemy tried to surrender without much of a battle taking place.

She was furious about the time and lives that had been wasted, furious at the stupid betrayals, furious at the fact that even her allies were looking for a different leader. In that scene she searches herself and finds she is not ready to let these people get away with a brief skirmish and prompt surrender.

[Ifreann]

And if the Lannisters were their allies then that wouldn't be a problem for the Lannisters.


And Jaime stabbed Aerys Targaryen in the back.

Cersei didn't really have any reason to trust the Tyrells but she had plenty of reason to distrust them, I mean just look at the obvious power plays involving the King

You don't need to totally trust people to work with them.

After Tywin's death, if Margery had been with Tommen for even just a bit longer a very likely outcome would have been Tommen ordering Cersei back to Casterley Rock (it nearly happened)

Not if she hadn't been incessantly and obviously working against Margaery.

---

Guys we need to talk about Game of Thrones biggest flaw.

Why the hell was there a stray horse at the end of Season 8, episode 5?

Uber

Bran is up in Winterfell, warging into horses to provide a taxi service.

[Holy Tedalonia]

Yeah, Im fine with it too, but still salty that Dany had no goddamn reason to burn the city. I mean, if you think about it, wouldnt the burning of the Red Keep suffice? We had civilians being brought in the Red Keep as hostages, We got Angry Dany who really wants to kill Cersei, and what better way to reveal tyrannical reformist then to burn the castle of kings landing the Red Keep in a show of might and fire? But no lets make her simply despicable rather then unlikable.

But no, I guess Dany's going to spend time killing sweet children rather then target her number one political enemy. Hell, I think the innocents in Red Keep had a more likely chance to survive given how she pelted those streets rather then the Red Keeps courtyard.

I got what they were going for. She'd refused to attack kings landing for the sake of the people living there and then as she started to see it as a more valid option she was consistently counseled away from it. One of her children was killed and despite that her first act was to offer a chance at bloodless surrender that was greeted with the murder of her closest friend and advisor. Instead of heralding her as their savior and rightful queen like in Mereen the people were happy enough to hide behind the walls and protection of her mortal enemy. Victory was almost almost effortless and after all the pain and hardship the enemy tried to surrender without much of a battle taking place.

She was furious about the time and lives that had been wasted, furious at the stupid betrayals, furious at the fact that even her allies were looking for a different leader. In that scene she searches herself and finds she is not ready to let these people get away with a brief skirmish and prompt surrender.

I do agree, she needed to have a outrage over the 'too easy' battle, but they went to far. She was so focused on killing everything in front of Cersei, that she never actually got to kill Cersei herself, in fact, had the cave-in not happened Jaime and Cersei would have gotten away.

I get the not caring for innocence, but had she just burnt the Red Keep down, and the confused men on the battle field broke out in a fight, because the surrender wasnt going to happen would have been easier for us to take in, and ultimately not make her a cliche 'good guy turned bad guy' character.

I mean, Jon Snow would definitely had been still salty seeing this mismanaged mess, Arya could have been running around the red keep instead of the city, and the Clegane Bowl would have still happened.

[Ism]

Yeah, Im fine with it too, but still salty that Dany had no goddamn reason to burn the city. I mean, if you think about it, wouldnt the burning of the Red Keep suffice? We had civilians being brought in the Red Keep as hostages, We got Angry Dany who really wants to kill Cersei, and what better way to reveal tyrannical reformist then to burn the castle of kings landing the Red Keep in a show of might and fire? But no lets make her simply despicable rather then unlikable.

But no, I guess Dany's going to spend time killing sweet children rather then target her number one political enemy. Hell, I think the innocents in Red Keep had a more likely chance to survive given how she pelted those streets rather then the Red Keeps courtyard.

I got what they were going for. She'd refused to attack kings landing for the sake of the people living there and then as she started to see it as a more valid option she was consistently counseled away from it. One of her children was killed and despite that her first act was to offer a chance at bloodless surrender that was greeted with the murder of her closest friend and advisor. Instead of heralding her as their savior and rightful queen like in Mereen the people were happy enough to hide behind the walls and protection of her mortal enemy. Victory was almost almost effortless and after all the pain and hardship the enemy tried to surrender without much of a battle taking place.

She was furious about the time and lives that had been wasted, furious at the stupid betrayals, furious at the fact that even her allies were looking for a different leader. In that scene she searches herself and finds she is not ready to let these people get away with a brief skirmish and prompt surrender.

It’s also worth remembering that this is what siege warfare actually looked like. If a city did not surrender, and an attacker was expected to offer good terms, it would be brutalized when it was sacked. You can see it in the Illiad, in the conquests of the Mongols and countless other sieges across history. From medieval point of view, she is justified, it is only that she has betrayed her ideals, out of rage, sorrow and hate, that her allies are opposed to her.

[Fedel]

I got what they were going for. She'd refused to attack kings landing for the sake of the people living there and then as she started to see it as a more valid option she was consistently counseled away from it. One of her children was killed and despite that her first act was to offer a chance at bloodless surrender that was greeted with the murder of her closest friend and advisor. Instead of heralding her as their savior and rightful queen like in Mereen the people were happy enough to hide behind the walls and protection of her mortal enemy. Victory was almost almost effortless and after all the pain and hardship the enemy tried to surrender without much of a battle taking place.

She was furious about the time and lives that had been wasted, furious at the stupid betrayals, furious at the fact that even her allies were looking for a different leader. In that scene she searches herself and finds she is not ready to let these people get away with a brief skirmish and prompt surrender.

It’s also worth remembering that this is what siege warfare actually looked like. If a city did not surrender, and an attacker was expected to offer good terms, it would be brutalized when it was sacked. You can see it in the Illiad, in the conquests of the Mongols and countless other sieges across history. From medieval point of view, she is justified, it is only that she has betrayed her ideals, out of rage, sorrow and hate, that her allies are opposed to her.

Mostly because the ideals she espoused are part of the reasons they aligned themselves with her to begin with.

[Ethel mermania]

Cersei didn't really have any reason to trust the Tyrells but she had plenty of reason to distrust them, I mean just look at the obvious power plays involving the King

You don't need to totally trust people to work with them.

After Tywin's death, if Margery had been with Tommen for even just a bit longer a very likely outcome would have been Tommen ordering Cersei back to Casterley Rock (it nearly happened)

Not if she hadn't been incessantly and obviously working against Margaery.

---

Uber

Bran is up in Winterfell, warging into horses to provide a taxi service.

It's a living.

[Des-Bal]

I do agree, she needed to have a outrage over the 'too easy' battle, but they went to far. She was so focused on killing everything in front of Cersei, that she never actually got to kill Cersei herself, in fact, had the cave-in not happened Jaime and Cersei would have gotten away.

I get the not caring for innocence, but had she just burnt the Red Keep down, and the confused men on the battle field broke out in a fight, because the surrender wasnt going to happen would have been easier for us to take in, and ultimately not make her a cliche 'good guy turned bad guy' character.

I mean, Jon Snow would definitely had been still salty seeing this mismanaged mess, Arya could have been running around the red keep instead of the city, and the Clegane Bowl would have still happened.

I think it was important that it happened the way it did. She wasn't just killing Cersei regardless she was castigating Kings Landing. She wanted to be their savior but they made her their conqueror and she acted the part. She couldn't hit the Red Keep first because Cersei living for as long as possible added drama, that's a writing contrivance and I make no excuses for it. I would have liked to see her directly attack the Red Keep after the surrender and then have Jon lose heart but then be overcome by horror as he realizes she's turning around to attack the city anyway.

I don't the writing has done a good job of blending the elements of Daenarys but she isn't a good guy, she has quite a bloody streak and as much as she hated her brother people around her should justifiably fear waking the dragon themselves. Her characterization has seemed a little schizophrenic but done correctly we should have been seeing characters becoming more aware of her brutality and anger as she was pressed further and further.

It’s also worth remembering that this is what siege warfare actually looked like. If a city did not surrender, and an attacker was expected to offer good terms, it would be brutalized when it was sacked. You can see it in the Illiad, in the conquests of the Mongols and countless other sieges across history. From medieval point of view, she is justified, it is only that she has betrayed her ideals, out of rage, sorrow and hate, that her allies are opposed to her.

That's true but this fits better into the story as a moment of fury and bloody revenge than the logical product of the enemy's recalcitrance during a siege. Even if it's an understandable or even wise decision the fat that she is so viciously betraying her ideals is what makes it work.

[Des-Bal]

Mostly because the ideals she espoused are part of the reasons they aligned themselves with her to begin with.

Not a Single. Fucking. Thing happened with that "break the wheel" speech.