ASoIAF/Game of Thrones general Discussion Thread

[Tarsonis]

To be fair, it's not so much that she isn't loved by the Northerners as it is that John is, and John is now a rival to the throne. I mean, the whole feast scene did put it into perspective. Tormunds drunk celebrating "What kind of man rides a dragon, either a crazy bloke or a KING!" meanwhile Dany is off to the side alone hearing this like "bitch hello? Been riding dragons for years now" John will always command the loyalty of the North. As she said to him "if you had never told me I would be happy." If John wasn't a threat to her claim to the throne, she could trust him. Sure the northerners might not be crazy about her, but he is, and they will follow him, so that would be enough. Instead now, John is pulling away, the Northerners are Team Snow, so for her, everything is coming apart at the seams. Compound that with Tyrion's divided loyalties between her and his family, John telling his family despite her pleas not to, Varys' sudden but inevitable betrayal, Missandei's death, the loss of two dragons, and to top it all off that smirking bitch Cersei refuses to bend the knee. It's not all that surprising that she's at wits end. My problem isn't with how it's playing out, it has been building from season 1, with how she handled her brothers death, with how she handled the Warlocks and Daxos, how she crucified the masters, with how she executed 2 out of 3 leaders, how she killed the Khans, how she killed the Tarly's, etc etc etc. Shit even how she handled Jorah Mormont. This side of her isn't coming out of no where, just in the build up from A-Z we've skipped from P to X. That's the problem.

If you think about it, her destruction of KL probably strengthened her standing with the Northeners and weakened Jon's. You average Northman has probably been fantasizing about burning that blasted Southern capital to the ground since the day they took the head of their universally beloved liege lord and Dany gave them exactly what they wanted (as seen by how eagerly the Northeners participated in the raping & pillaging). Jon, as per usual, failed to understand his own crowd.

Also in regards to Tormund, is it just me or did that crazy motherfucker forget that he himself rode a dragon once? Granted, only as a passenger, but still.

That would actually be a hell of a twist ending, have to admit. For them to side with her after the sack of KL and hate John. Even some people be like "hey i was there, I saw him kill ricky. Snow's a traitor, all hail the Angel of Death Queen Dany!" In the end nobility dies out, and the wheel keeps turning with Dany at the helm? That'd be a pretty poignant way to end it.

As for Tormund, that adds to it doesn't? Not only has he ridden a dragon before, but just who the hell was the one flying the damn thing while he did? Dany fucking Targaryan. Tormund needs to show some respect.

[Des-Bal]

To be fair, it's not so much that she isn't loved by the Northerners as it is that John is, and John is now a rival to the throne. I mean, the whole feast scene did put it into perspective. Tormunds drunk celebrating "What kind of man rides a dragon, either a crazy bloke or a KING!" meanwhile Dany is off to the side alone hearing this like "bitch hello? Been riding dragons for years now" John will always command the loyalty of the North. As she said to him "if you had never told me I would be happy." If John wasn't a threat to her claim to the throne, she could trust him. Sure the northerners might not be crazy about her, but he is, and they will follow him, so that would be enough. Instead now, John is pulling away, the Northerners are Team Snow, so for her, everything is coming apart at the seams. Compound that with Tyrion's divided loyalties between her and his family, John telling his family despite her pleas not to, Varys' sudden but inevitable betrayal, Missandei's death, the loss of two dragons, and to top it all off that smirking bitch Cersei refuses to bend the knee. It's not all that surprising that she's at wits end. My problem isn't with how it's playing out, it has been building from season 1, with how she handled her brothers death, with how she handled the Warlocks and Daxos, how she crucified the masters, with how she executed 2 out of 3 leaders, how she killed the Khans, how she killed the Tarly's, etc etc etc. Shit even how she handled Jorah Mormont. This side of her isn't coming out of no where, just in the build up from A-Z we've skipped from P to X. That's the problem.

Total agreement. I think too much time was spent building hype and not enough hitting the necessary emotional beats to make her transition and descent satisfying. She could have walked into kings landing immediately and taken everything but for various reasons she was forced to sacrifice more and more, he suffered horrible losses including one of her children just because Cersei was so delusional she refused to do what was good for her while the people stubbornly and stupidly heralded a pretender without a claim as their queen and saw their salvation as a hostile power. Spending more time with those emotions and subtle changes coming to daenarys would have been a vastly better way to spend season seven.

[Tarsonis]

To be fair, it's not so much that she isn't loved by the Northerners as it is that John is, and John is now a rival to the throne. I mean, the whole feast scene did put it into perspective. Tormunds drunk celebrating "What kind of man rides a dragon, either a crazy bloke or a KING!" meanwhile Dany is off to the side alone hearing this like "bitch hello? Been riding dragons for years now" John will always command the loyalty of the North. As she said to him "if you had never told me I would be happy." If John wasn't a threat to her claim to the throne, she could trust him. Sure the northerners might not be crazy about her, but he is, and they will follow him, so that would be enough. Instead now, John is pulling away, the Northerners are Team Snow, so for her, everything is coming apart at the seams. Compound that with Tyrion's divided loyalties between her and his family, John telling his family despite her pleas not to, Varys' sudden but inevitable betrayal, Missandei's death, the loss of two dragons, and to top it all off that smirking bitch Cersei refuses to bend the knee. It's not all that surprising that she's at wits end. My problem isn't with how it's playing out, it has been building from season 1, with how she handled her brothers death, with how she handled the Warlocks and Daxos, how she crucified the masters, with how she executed 2 out of 3 leaders, how she killed the Khans, how she killed the Tarly's, etc etc etc. Shit even how she handled Jorah Mormont. This side of her isn't coming out of no where, just in the build up from A-Z we've skipped from P to X. That's the problem.

Total agreement. I think too much time was spent building hype and not enough hitting the necessary emotional beats to make her transition and descent satisfying. She could have walked into kings landing immediately and taken everything but for various reasons she was forced to sacrifice more and more, he suffered horrible losses including one of her children just because Cersei was so delusional she refused to do what was good for her while the people stubbornly and stupidly heralded a pretender without a claim as their queen and saw their salvation as a hostile power. Spending more time with those emotions and subtle changes coming to daenarys would have been a vastly better way to spend season seven.

Agreed. Season 8 could still have been this short, but season 7 needed to be longer to really set up the payoffs here. It wasn't so we're not completely sold on the way it's turning out.

[Ifreann]

If you think about it, her destruction of KL probably strengthened her standing with the Northeners and weakened Jon's. You average Northman has probably been fantasizing about burning that blasted Southern capital to the ground since the day they took the head of their universally beloved liege lord and Dany gave them exactly what they wanted (as seen by how eagerly the Northeners participated in the raping & pillaging). Jon, as per usual, failed to understand his own crowd.

Also in regards to Tormund, is it just me or did that crazy motherfucker forget that he himself rode a dragon once? Granted, only as a passenger, but still.

That would actually be a hell of a twist ending, have to admit. For them to side with her after the sack of KL and hate John. Even some people be like "hey i was there, I saw him kill ricky. Snow's a traitor, all hail the Angel of Death Queen Dany!" In the end nobility dies out, and the wheel keeps turning with Dany at the helm? That'd be a pretty poignant way to end it.

As for Tormund, that adds to it doesn't? Not only has he ridden a dragon before, but just who the hell was the one flying the damn thing while he did? Dany fucking Targaryan. Tormund needs to show some respect.

Tormund has no regard for smol blonde woman, he cares only for big blonde woman.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Also, not related to any spoilers, one thing I thought the show didn't do very well overall was portray the amount of time between Robert's Rebellion and the current time period. Like the characters talk about Targaryen rule like it was 70 years ago, but it was like 15 years ago, the heroes of the rebellion were like 35 and 40 at the beginning of the show

[Tarsonis]

To be fair, it's not so much that she isn't loved by the Northerners as it is that John is, and John is now a rival to the throne. I mean, the whole feast scene did put it into perspective. Tormunds drunk celebrating "What kind of man rides a dragon, either a crazy bloke or a KING!" meanwhile Dany is off to the side alone hearing this like "bitch hello? Been riding dragons for years now" John will always command the loyalty of the North. As she said to him "if you had never told me I would be happy." If John wasn't a threat to her claim to the throne, she could trust him. Sure the northerners might not be crazy about her, but he is, and they will follow him, so that would be enough. Instead now, John is pulling away, the Northerners are Team Snow, so for her, everything is coming apart at the seams. Compound that with Tyrion's divided loyalties between her and his family, John telling his family despite her pleas not to, Varys' sudden but inevitable betrayal, Missandei's death, the loss of two dragons, and to top it all off that smirking bitch Cersei refuses to bend the knee. It's not all that surprising that she's at wits end. My problem isn't with how it's playing out, it has been building from season 1, with how she handled her brothers death, with how she handled the Warlocks and Daxos, how she crucified the masters, with how she executed 2 out of 3 leaders, how she killed the Khans, how she killed the Tarly's, etc etc etc. Shit even how she handled Jorah Mormont. This side of her isn't coming out of no where, just in the build up from A-Z we've skipped from P to X. That's the problem.

Total agreement. I think too much time was spent building hype and not enough hitting the necessary emotional beats to make her transition and descent satisfying. She could have walked into kings landing immediately and taken everything but for various reasons she was forced to sacrifice more and more, he suffered horrible losses including one of her children just because Cersei was so delusional she refused to do what was good for her while the people stubbornly and stupidly heralded a pretender without a claim as their queen and saw their salvation as a hostile power. Spending more time with those emotions and subtle changes coming to daenarys would have been a vastly better way to spend season seven.

Actually, thinking on this, and watching Angry Joe's rant, a thought occurs to me. What sets her off, is that it's too easy. She knocked over their defenses in barely 5 minutes. They surrendered with barely a fight. She sacrificed so much over the course of seasons 7 and 8, when she could of marched strait into kings landing from day 1 and won the war? If she had just gone with her gut and burninated the Red Keep, she'd have won without sacrificing everything. The realization is too much, and she just loses it.

[Des-Bal]

Well you have to remember the "high" Targ era was about 150 years ago. That was the last time there were dragons and all the Targaeryans after that were wrapped up in petty squabbles, incompetent, or insane.

[Des-Bal]

Actually, thinking on this, and watching Angry Joe's rant, a thought occurs to me. What sets her off, is that it's too easy. She knocked over their defenses in barely 5 minutes. They surrendered with barely a fight. She sacrificed so much over the course of seasons 7 and 8, when she could of marched strait into kings landing from day 1 and won the war? If she had just gone with her gut and burninated the Red Keep, she'd have won without sacrificing everything. The realization is too much, and she just loses it.

I think that's a great angle but I think you might be writing a better story than D&D.

[Tarsonis]

Actually, thinking on this, and watching Angry Joe's rant, a thought occurs to me. What sets her off, is that it's too easy. She knocked over their defenses in barely 5 minutes. They surrendered with barely a fight. She sacrificed so much over the course of seasons 7 and 8, when she could of marched strait into kings landing from day 1 and won the war? If she had just gone with her gut and burninated the Red Keep, she'd have won without sacrificing everything. The realization is too much, and she just loses it.

I think that's a great angle but I think you might be writing a better story than D&D.

Well I just found out they're the ones behind Xmen Origins Wolverine, and the raping of Deadpool....sooooo not a high bar

[Tarsonis]

Dany's arc is pretty similar to Normon Osborn's in Spiderman. Everytime we see her tortured face, I hear in the back of my mind Willam Defoe Screaming "DO YOU KNOW HOW MUCH I'VE SACRIFICED!!!

[Fedel]

Lol. This image is the perfect encapsulation of the series.

[Tarsonis]

Lol. This image is the perfect encapsulation of the series.

(Image)

Not really. It was pretty solid up until season six. Seasons 7-8 aren't bad, they're just rushed.

[Baltenstein]

Total agreement. I think too much time was spent building hype and not enough hitting the necessary emotional beats to make her transition and descent satisfying. She could have walked into kings landing immediately and taken everything but for various reasons she was forced to sacrifice more and more, he suffered horrible losses including one of her children just because Cersei was so delusional she refused to do what was good for her while the people stubbornly and stupidly heralded a pretender without a claim as their queen and saw their salvation as a hostile power. Spending more time with those emotions and subtle changes coming to daenarys would have been a vastly better way to spend season seven.

Actually, thinking on this, and watching Angry Joe's rant, a thought occurs to me. What sets her off, is that it's too easy. She knocked over their defenses in barely 5 minutes. They surrendered with barely a fight. She sacrificed so much over the course of seasons 7 and 8, when she could of marched strait into kings landing from day 1 and won the war? If she had just gone with her gut and burninated the Red Keep, she'd have won without sacrificing everything. The realization is too much, and she just loses it.

The fact that she only decided on this course of action (initially sparing KL instead of just taking it from the get-go) after listening to her Westerosi advisors (who not only gave her one bad council after the other but actively plotted to overthrow her) probably didn't help either. Compare and contrast that with her Essosi helpers (Missandei, Grey Worm, Daario) who have been 100% loyal and competent from the beginning to the end. She's probably at a point where she doesn't give a crap about what any Westerosi thinks or says about any given matter.

[Fedel]

Lol. This image is the perfect encapsulation of the series.

(Image)

Not really. It was pretty solid up until season six. Seasons 7-8 aren't bad, they're just rushed.

Season 5 had the Dorne arc and season 6 had Little Finger blunder by leaving Sansa in Ramsey's clutches. You think that met up to the standards of prior seasons?

[Ethel mermania]

Actually, thinking on this, and watching Angry Joe's rant, a thought occurs to me. What sets her off, is that it's too easy. She knocked over their defenses in barely 5 minutes. They surrendered with barely a fight. She sacrificed so much over the course of seasons 7 and 8, when she could of marched strait into kings landing from day 1 and won the war? If she had just gone with her gut and burninated the Red Keep, she'd have won without sacrificing everything. The realization is too much, and she just loses it.

The fact that she only decided on this course of action (initially sparing KL instead of just taking it from the get-go) after listening to her Westerosi advisors (who not only gave her one bad council after the other but actively plotted to overthrow her) probably didn't help either. Compare and contrast that with her Essosi helpers (Missandei, Grey Worm, Daario) who have been 100% loyal and competent from the beginning to the end. She's probably at a point where she doesn't give a crap about what any Westerosi thinks or says about any given matter.

or if jon didnt have a stick up his ass.

[Des-Bal]

Lol. This image is the perfect encapsulation of the series.

(Image)

Not really. It was pretty solid up until season six. Seasons 7-8 aren't bad, they're just rushed.

Sansa's promising arc being scrapped for a bog standard rape-revenge thing and Jaime and Bronn doing a buddy-cop thing in Dorne were the first indicators that the writers were running out of source material they could adapt and that they had no idea what to do.

[Des-Bal]

or if jon didnt have a stick up his ass.

It would be so great if when Varys pulled Jon aside it was to try and convince him to fuck his aunt so she'd chill out.

[Tarsonis]

or if jon didnt have a stick up his ass.

It would be so great if when Varys pulled Jon aside it was to try and convince him to fuck his aunt so she'd chill out.

Let's be honest that's more Tyrian's advice

[World Anarchic Union]

Honestly, I think this was a great episode. It had spectacle, it had twists and turns that didn’t come from left field and made sense, it had brutal and dark moments, it had character interactions that were needed and finished in a very fulfilling way a lot of loose ends. The previous episode was much more average in my opinion. Episode 5 makes me very excited for the ending.

If I could change something, it would be in relation to the previous one or two episodes. Perhaps have the dragon be killed in this battle, since it would make more sense, imo. Also, the show would have been better off if the last two seasons had 10 episodes like the rest.

Also, completely love how the prophecies were discarded and twisted on their heads, one of the least interesting, imo, aspects of ASOIAF and of fantasy in general.

[Tarsonis]

Not really. It was pretty solid up until season six. Seasons 7-8 aren't bad, they're just rushed.

Sansa's promising arc being scrapped for a bog standard rape-revenge thing and Jaime and Bronn doing a buddy-cop thing in Dorne were the first indicators that the writers were running out of source material they could adapt and that they had no idea what to do.

Eh I disagree. Sansa's arc went that natural way it should have. Little Finger trading her to Ramsey for political advantage is entirely within his character.

As for the Buddy Cop aspect, maybe. Myrcella is still alive in the books, and they weren't involved at all with her return, but with writing out the minor characters for the show they needed a new way to bring her back/kill her. I thought it worked fine.

[Ethel mermania]

Total agreement. I think too much time was spent building hype and not enough hitting the necessary emotional beats to make her transition and descent satisfying. She could have walked into kings landing immediately and taken everything but for various reasons she was forced to sacrifice more and more, he suffered horrible losses including one of her children just because Cersei was so delusional she refused to do what was good for her while the people stubbornly and stupidly heralded a pretender without a claim as their queen and saw their salvation as a hostile power. Spending more time with those emotions and subtle changes coming to daenarys would have been a vastly better way to spend season seven.

Actually, thinking on this, and watching Angry Joe's rant, a thought occurs to me. What sets her off, is that it's too easy. She knocked over their defenses in barely 5 minutes. They surrendered with barely a fight. She sacrificed so much over the course of seasons 7 and 8, when she could of marched strait into kings landing from day 1 and won the war? If she had just gone with her gut and burninated the Red Keep, she'd have won without sacrificing everything. The realization is too much, and she just loses it.

the series didnt know how to treat dragons. They were invincible till the nk's magic lance, then they weren't. Then again they are invincible till they forget how to zig zag and breathe fire, and they werent.
Now one is invincible when burning out kings landing. They worked solely to advance plot points, not within any war logic of their own.

[The Huskar Social Union]

Well that was some episode.

So was not surprised in the slightest that Daenerys went fucking mental and killed a ton of people, and boy did SHE KILL A FUCK TON OF PEOPLE. Good bye kings landing.... eh.. i dont really.. im not gona miss that city. Sucks all the childer died though. I think maybe it would have felt better if she lost more in the battle and that is what sets her off. Like if say Missandei died in this episode, and then Rhaegal was killed when she had achieved victory because of a hidden ballista that nailed it right in the mouth mid roar or something. Also if there were more episodes as well, if it had a full 10 episode run i think they could have done it better.

Jon, you need to kill her by the way then go home and sit in the snow for the rest of your life, fuck the south. Oh and get Edmure out of his cell plox he has a wife and kid, let them be together.

Golden Company getting fucking obliterated was hilarious, as was the Iron Fleet. Like the flip on plot power was mental but seeing that gatehouse explode and flatten like 50 men is crazy and awesome. RIP strickland, you.... literally did nothing... fantastic character.

CLEGANEBOWL HYPE HYPE HYPE HYPE. I was satisfied, very satisfied with that, shame Sandor died but i kind of guessed it would happen some way.

Now for my two biggest issues with this episode.

Jaime and Cersei, was not happy. Great scene together, they did a great job especially Lena. But i wish it went down a bit better with them, felt.. unsatisfied. Wish he killed her.... felt like a complete waste of his character arc.. y u do dis


Also Tyrion.... i get.. she is your sister, but knock it in the fucking head with trying to save her... you think you would have gotten the message last episode when she said nah then lopped missandei's head off.

Overall i'd give it a 4, same with the battle of winterfell episode, great to watch, enjoyed it a lot. Few small problems here and there then one major problem that felt unsatisfying. Maybe a 3,hmmm still deciding.

[Des-Bal]

Eh I disagree. Sansa's arc went that natural way it should have. Little Finger trading her to Ramsey for political advantage is entirely within his character.

As for the Buddy Cop aspect, maybe. Myrcella is still alive in the books, and they weren't involved at all with her return, but with writing out the minor characters for the show they needed a new way to bring her back/kill her. I thought it worked fine.

Not at all. Sansa was precious to Littlefinger, he saw her as the embodiement of her mother and even if he didn't he didn't dervie political advantage. Littlefinger has 0 association with Sansa, he has no right to anything as a result of her marriage, and he has no means of enforcing any kind of agreement so whatever benefit he derives can only be the product of Roose keeping a promise for the sake of a promise. Now the way he talked it's possible he assumed Stannis would beat the Boltons, be grateful for having her, and forgive the fact Littlefinger gave her to Ramsay in the first place.

Littlefinger's plan rested on either the honor of Roose Bolton, or the magnanimity of Stannis Baratheon. If we could work in a reliance on the Cersei's chastity it would be the trifecta of shit that doesn't exist.

They murdered Myrcella in the name of a man who literally said "We don't hurt little girls in Dorne."

[Tarsonis]

Eh I disagree. Sansa's arc went that natural way it should have. Little Finger trading her to Ramsey for political advantage is entirely within his character.

As for the Buddy Cop aspect, maybe. Myrcella is still alive in the books, and they weren't involved at all with her return, but with writing out the minor characters for the show they needed a new way to bring her back/kill her. I thought it worked fine.

Not at all. Sansa was precious to Littlefinger, he saw her as the embodiement of her mother and even if he didn't he didn't dervie political advantage. Littlefinger has 0 association with Sansa, he has no right to anything as a result of her marriage, and he has no means of enforcing any kind of agreement so whatever benefit he derives can only be the product of Roose keeping a promise for the sake of a promise. Now the way he talked it's possible he assumed Stannis would beat the Boltons, be grateful for having her, and forgive the fact Littlefinger gave her to Ramsay in the first place.

Littlefinger's plan rested on either the honor of Roose Bolton, and the magnanimity of Stannis Baratheon. If we could work in a reliance on the Cersei's chastity it would be the trifecta of shit that doesn't exist.

They murdered Myrcella in the name of a man who literally said "We don't hurt little girls in Dorne."

except he did. He was Lord Protector of the Vale. The Vale while a kingdom in its own right, was secluded and its power more or less tied to the North through Marriages and Family Allegiances following Roberts Rebellion. With Ned and Caitlyn dead, Little finger now has the familial control by virtue of marrying Sansa’s aunt. Returning Sansa to Winterfell, gains him the favor of Roose Bolton, but also solidifies his family ties to the North. It elevates his position by elevating the Vale through strategic political allegiances, and puts a presumably loyal pawn in Winterfell. Little finger probably loved her in his way, but he’s a Sociopath. He would happily feed Sansa to the hounds if it advanced his quest for the Iron Throne.

As for Dorne, they tried to kill her in the books too, only they presumably failed. She leaves dorn scarred but breathing

[Tarsonis]

Actually, thinking on this, and watching Angry Joe's rant, a thought occurs to me. What sets her off, is that it's too easy. She knocked over their defenses in barely 5 minutes. They surrendered with barely a fight. She sacrificed so much over the course of seasons 7 and 8, when she could of marched strait into kings landing from day 1 and won the war? If she had just gone with her gut and burninated the Red Keep, she'd have won without sacrificing everything. The realization is too much, and she just loses it.

the series didnt know how to treat dragons. They were invincible till the nk's magic lance, then they weren't. Then again they are invincible till they forget how to zig zag and breathe fire, and they werent.
Now one is invincible when burning out kings landing. They worked solely to advance plot points, not within any war logic of their own.

I disagree entirely. They’ve never showed them to be invincible. During the Colosseum fight, Drogon was wounded by the harpies Spears. Dany gets on him to get him to leave rather than be killed. Up until they come to Westeros they’re only invincible because nobody has weapons capable of taking them out in flight. The first scorpion is a prototype, and they only had one in the caravan. it wounds Drogon, but doesn’t kill him. By season 8 the scorpions are upgraded and mass produced, , and fully capable of taking out the dragons.

With Rhaegal, they’re ambushed. The Iron Born control the engagement, she’s unprepared, so Dany is forced to flee. At KL, Dany controls the engagement, attacking swiftly from above the clouds before they can effectively aim. She’s prepared for this engagement, has presumably been advised on the limitations of the scorpions and uses that knowledge effectively. Of all the grips I’ve heard I think this is the most milquetoast.