ASoIAF/Game of Thrones general Discussion Thread

[Fedel]

Poor episode but expected.

Why do you consider it "poor"? It's an amazing battle that depicts the feelings of dread and hopelessness perfectly. What would you do differently?

Not have spent nearly a quarter of the show building up an ultimate threat that turned out to be nothing more then a way to consolidate all the different factions into two opposing ones where one is clearly in the right and the other isn't.

[Valrifell]

I was literally screaming the same thing

......he literally sprinted at him sword raised ready to kill him. He couldn’t get there in time.

There were several seconds of them staring at each other to build sexual tension, if he did more cardio this would not have been a problem.

[Tarsonis]

......he literally sprinted at him sword raised ready to kill him. He couldn’t get there in time.

There were several seconds of them staring at each other to build sexual tension, if he did more cardio this would not have been a problem.

I think John was getting ready to duel, where as the NK pulled an Indiana Jones move. NK is a bitch at heart.

[Tarsonis]

Why do you consider it "poor"? It's an amazing battle that depicts the feelings of dread and hopelessness perfectly. What would you do differently?

Not have spent nearly a quarter of the show building up an ultimate threat that turned out to be nothing more then a way to consolidate all the different factions into two opposing ones where one is clearly in the right and the other isn't.

maybe from a story aspect that feels weak, but from a realisim aspect I think it works well. Naturally the good guys are gonna go fight the big bad, while the other bad guys are gonna sit back and pull what ever advantage they can out of the situation.

[Ethel mermania]

I was literally screaming the same thing

......he literally sprinted at him sword raised ready to kill him. He couldn’t get there in time.

No he didnt, he stopped and watched

[Fedel]

Not have spent nearly a quarter of the show building up an ultimate threat that turned out to be nothing more then a way to consolidate all the different factions into two opposing ones where one is clearly in the right and the other isn't.

maybe from a story aspect that feels weak, but from a realisim aspect I think it works well. Naturally the good guys are gonna go fight the big bad, while the other bad guys are gonna sit back and pull what ever advantage they can out of the situation.

I don't watch things for realism. I watch things for entertainment. If I watched things solely for realism I'd just stare at a live stream of a zoo enclosure.

Now, there's a line where if something is too unrealistic, it diminishes my enjoyment of a product ( many of the plotholes in "The Last Jedi" for example ). But there wasn't an issue with that in the case of Game of Thrones as it's been ( for the most part ) internally consistent up to this point.

They could have gone any way they wanted with the mechanics of how the undead function as they are a fictional fantasy element with non specified parameters within the context of the show. I.E. they could have kept it reasonably realistic and gone a much different way then what they did meaning it wasn't a choice of realism over being anti-climactic since they could have easily kept the same amount of realism while also continuing a story point where

the White Walkers remain a salient plot point until the end.

They simply chose to go down a route where things are now mostly one dimensional where one side's good and the other side's evil. That's why I find it to be bad writing. Most of the morale complexity and the drama that results from it is gone from this show now as a result of the choices that have been made up to this point, at least, imo.

[Tarsonis]

......he literally sprinted at him sword raised ready to kill him. He couldn’t get there in time.

No he didnt, he stopped and watched

no he didn’t. He was chasing the NK, until the NK became aware of him. NK turns around John stops and prepares to face him in combat. NK starts raising the dead, John realizes it and sprints right at him. Dead are coming to life all around him as he runs, but he keeps running. He’s about 20 feet away when the dead form ranks between him and the NK and he has to stop because he’s surrounded by wights.


That is what happened. He did not stop and watch the dead rise up. You’re wrong, go watch it again.

[Ethel mermania]

No he didnt, he stopped and watched

no he didn’t. He was chasing the NK, until the NK became aware of him. NK turns around John stops and prepares to face him in combat. NK starts raising the dead, John realizes it and sprints right at him. Dead are coming to life all around him as he runs, but he keeps running. He’s about 20 feet away when the dead form ranks between him and the NK and he has to stop because he’s surrounded by wights.


That is what happened. He did not stop and watch the dead rise up. You’re wrong, go watch it again.

I will watch it again but I am fairly certain I am correct.

[Bloodshade]

no he didn’t. He was chasing the NK, until the NK became aware of him. NK turns around John stops and prepares to face him in combat. NK starts raising the dead, John realizes it and sprints right at him. Dead are coming to life all around him as he runs, but he keeps running. He’s about 20 feet away when the dead form ranks between him and the NK and he has to stop because he’s surrounded by wights.


That is what happened. He did not stop and watch the dead rise up. You’re wrong, go watch it again.

I will watch it again but I am fairly certain I am correct.

I also remember the scene. Jon only stopped when the Night King stopped and turned around but once the Night King started doing his signature "Awaken my minions" pose, he began to run again and tried to reach him before the wights were able to surround him...but he failed.

I think you mean that Jon's reaction time was somewhat slow when the NK started raising the dead. One could argue that Jon should've just kept on running at the Night King but I don't blame Jon for fearing the NK's powers.

[Ism]

maybe from a story aspect that feels weak, but from a realisim aspect I think it works well. Naturally the good guys are gonna go fight the big bad, while the other bad guys are gonna sit back and pull what ever advantage they can out of the situation.

I don't watch things for realism. I watch things for entertainment.

Now, there's a line where if something is too unrealistic, it diminishes my enjoyment of a product ( many of the plotholes in "The Last Jedi" for example ). But there wasn't an issue with that in the case of Game of Thrones as it's been ( for the most part ) internally consistent up to this point.

They could have gone any way they wanted with the mechanics of how the undead function as they are a fictional fantasy element with non specified parameters within the context of the show. I.E. they could have kept it reasonably realistic and gone a much different way then what they did meaning it wasn't a choice of realism over being anti-climactic since they could have easily kept the same amount of realism while also continuing a story point where

the White Walkers remain a salient plot point until the end.

They simply chose to go down a route where things are now mostly one dimensional where one side's good and the other side's evil. That's why I find it to be bad writing. Most of the morale complexity and the drama that results from it is gone from this show now imo.

What did you expect? Cersei is a vile petty person, she isn't going to attract a whole lot of loyalty, especially not from any morally upright characters. Throughout the entire show's run, she has made next to no lasting allies and absolutely no friends. Qyburn and the Mounatain are really the only people, if you can still call Gregor a person, loyal to her, with the Gold Company and Euron being mercenaries, only as loyal as their paycheck is large. As we saw with Stannis, you shouldn't rely on such people to win a war. She can be persuasive, but she utterly lacks the capacity to inspire loyalty or win hearts. Compare her to Daenerys, whose zeal and sincerity allow her to win the loyalty of a diverse group of people, from Dothraki and Unsullied to disgraced Westerosi knights. Or to Jon, who, thanks to his compassion, stubbornness and devotion to honor is able to win the trust of the Wildlings he betrayed and helped defeat, who even without those facts were enemies of the Night's Watch for thousands of years, as well as being able to rally suspicious Northern lords against the Boltons despite his being a bastard (so far as they knew) and allowing the Wildlings to cross the Wall. The reason it's become good vs bad, more or less, is that no one else would be willing to work for Cersei.

Furthermore, the reason the bad guys have ended up with Cersei alone in control is because they destroyed each other long before the good guys consolidated, and it's thanks to Cersei and the even more incompetent Joffrey that this happened. Because of the reputation he earned, he was assassinated by Olena, which leads ultimately to Tywin and Oberyn dying, Varys and Tyrion defecting to Daenerys and Littlefigner taking Sansa to the Vale. The result is that the best force for stabilizing the Seven Kingdoms and readying Tommen to rule is removed, Dorne rebels against the Lannisters, Daenerys gains two useful allies and the useful hostage and, at this point, the person who is the only known rightful heir to the North is outside of their grasp. This is compounded by Cersei's attempts to use the High Sparrow to weaken the Tyrells, which blows up in her face, culminating in the Green Trial. This in turn drives the Reach to Danerys, just as Sansa and Littlefinger play a pivotal role in overthrowing the Boltons, freeing the North from Lannister influence. So, we know have two coalitions opposing the Lannisters, each with personal and political grievances, eager to see Cersei removed from the Iron Throne. The Lannisters screwed up, and kept screwing up, and eventually lost the family members who could compensate for those mistakes. That's why any "good" allies they might have had abandoned them over the course of the series, and why those allies joined their enemies.

[Ethel mermania]

no he didn’t. He was chasing the NK, until the NK became aware of him. NK turns around John stops and prepares to face him in combat. NK starts raising the dead, John realizes it and sprints right at him. Dead are coming to life all around him as he runs, but he keeps running. He’s about 20 feet away when the dead form ranks between him and the NK and he has to stop because he’s surrounded by wights.


That is what happened. He did not stop and watch the dead rise up. You’re wrong, go watch it again.

I will watch it again but I am fairly certain I am correct.

he runs, when the night king sees him he stops, the night king turns around. Cracks his neck and starts his thing, then jon starts again. Too late.

[Tarsonis]

I will watch it again but I am fairly certain I am correct.

he runs, when the night king sees him he stops, the night king turns around. Cracks his neck and starts his thing, then jon starts again. Too late.

just as I said

[Auristania]

Jon v Zombies

NhK casts spell; Jon runs towards NhK; dramatic tension, will Jon attack NhK before Zombies resurrect? NO,

Arya is awesome. it was a teeny bit lucky and contrived and Deus x Machina,

[Ethel mermania]

he runs, when the night king sees him he stops, the night king turns around. Cracks his neck and starts his thing, then jon starts again. Too late.

just as I said

Same set of facts, but i am good with my conclusion.

he had his opportunity and lost it

[Fedel]

I don't watch things for realism. I watch things for entertainment.

Now, there's a line where if something is too unrealistic, it diminishes my enjoyment of a product ( many of the plotholes in "The Last Jedi" for example ). But there wasn't an issue with that in the case of Game of Thrones as it's been ( for the most part ) internally consistent up to this point.

They could have gone any way they wanted with the mechanics of how the undead function as they are a fictional fantasy element with non specified parameters within the context of the show. I.E. they could have kept it reasonably realistic and gone a much different way then what they did meaning it wasn't a choice of realism over being anti-climactic since they could have easily kept the same amount of realism while also continuing a story point where

the White Walkers remain a salient plot point until the end.

They simply chose to go down a route where things are now mostly one dimensional where one side's good and the other side's evil. That's why I find it to be bad writing. Most of the morale complexity and the drama that results from it is gone from this show now imo.

What did you expect? Cersei is a vile petty person, she isn't going to attract a whole lot of loyalty, especially not from any morally upright characters. Throughout the entire show's run, she has made next to no lasting allies and absolutely no friends. Qyburn and the Mounatain are really the only people, if you can still call Gregor a person, loyal to her, with the Gold Company and Euron being mercenaries, only as loyal as their paycheck is large. As we saw with Stannis, you shouldn't rely on such people to win a war. She can be persuasive, but she utterly lacks the capacity to inspire loyalty or win hearts. Compare her to Daenerys, whose zeal and sincerity allow her to win the loyalty of a diverse group of people, from Dothraki and Unsullied to disgraced Westerosi knights. Or to Jon, who, thanks to his compassion, stubbornness and devotion to honor is able to win the trust of the Wildlings he betrayed and helped defeat, who even without those facts were enemies of the Night's Watch for thousands of years, as well as being able to rally suspicious Northern lords against the Boltons despite his being a bastard (so far as they knew) and allowing the Wildlings to cross the Wall. The reason it's become good vs bad, more or less, is that no one else would be willing to work for Cersei.

Furthermore, the reason the bad guys have ended up with Cersei alone in control is because they destroyed each other long before the good guys consolidated, and it's thanks to Cersei and the even more incompetent Joffrey that this happened. Because of the reputation he earned, he was assassinated by Olena, which leads ultimately to Tywin and Oberyn dying, Varys and Tyrion defecting to Daenerys and Littlefigner taking Sansa to the Vale. The result is that the best force for stabilizing the Seven Kingdoms and readying Tommen to rule is removed, Dorne rebels against the Lannisters, Daenerys gains two useful allies and the useful hostage and, at this point, the person who is the only known rightful heir to the North is outside of their grasp. This is compounded by Cersei's attempts to use the High Sparrow to weaken the Tyrells, which blows up in her face, culminating in the Green Trial. This in turn drives the Reach to Danerys, just as Sansa and Littlefinger play a pivotal role in overthrowing the Boltons, freeing the North from Lannister influence. So, we know have two coalitions opposing the Lannisters, each with personal and political grievances, eager to see Cersei removed from the Iron Throne. The Lannisters screwed up, and kept screwing up, and eventually lost the family members who could compensate for those mistakes. That's why any "good" allies they might have had abandoned them over the course of the series, and why those allies joined their enemies.

You don't have to summarize the plot of the show for me. I'm well aware of the events that lead up to this point. I'm saying that they could have in other directions in order to have prevented it from being so black and white.

Not killing off Baelish being a good example.

[Platypus Bureaucracy]

Eh, it was okay. I saw people complaining about geography, and dear God is that fair. No idea what was happening half the time.

And then there's that weird bit where it all gets quiet for Arya, Beric, and the Hound to have a suspenseful sneakabout scene, which felt out of place af. And the Hollywood Tactics, man! I'm pretty forgiving of that stuff, because it doesn't matter that much, but there were some bits where it got really frustrating.

3/4 on the dead pool! I'm very cool with Arya being the one to take out the NK, but one episode seems way too short a time for what is basically the entire Dead vs Living war. It's really bizarre how few episodes they've been given, and the quality of the show has suffered so much for it.

Also, pour one out for Lyanna Mormont, Giant Slayer, Great Bear of the North, the only death that actually upset me.

I had that one spoiled for me. Absolutely devastated.

I mean, it's nice that they saved Westeros and all, but it's literally not worth saving any more.

Arya is awesome. it was a teeny bit lucky and contrived and Deus x Machina,

This is one of, like, seventeen bits of writing jargon I would like to ban.

......he literally sprinted at him sword raised ready to kill him. He couldn’t get there in time.

There were several seconds of them staring at each other to build sexual tension, if he did more cardio this would not have been a problem.

I ship it.

[Pasong Tirad]

There were several seconds of them staring at each other to build sexual tension, if he did more cardio this would not have been a problem.

I ship it.

They do act like schoolyard boys just pushing each other because they don't know how to positively reach out with their feelings. Maybe if they just sat down and had a coffee together none of this would have happened.

[Platypus Bureaucracy]

I ship it.

They do act like schoolyard boys just pushing each other because they don't know how to positively reach out with their feelings. Maybe if they just sat down and had a coffee together none of this would have happened.

Yeah. The Night King's a bit of an Ice Queen.

[Platypus Bureaucracy]

Did anyone else notice how

none of the dead characters got to have last words in the traditional sense?

[Pasong Tirad]

They do act like schoolyard boys just pushing each other because they don't know how to positively reach out with their feelings. Maybe if they just sat down and had a coffee together none of this would have happened.

Yeah. The Night King's a bit of an Ice Queen.

Why have a Battle of Winterfell when you could just have a Battle of Winterfeels?

Also, Hank Green currently in the denial stage of grief that some of the things done during the Battle of Winterfell could probably just be bad writing. (spoilers)

[Platypus Bureaucracy]

Yeah. The Night King's a bit of an Ice Queen.

Why have a Battle of Winterfell when you could just have a Battle of Winterfeels?

Also, Hank Green currently in the denial stage of grief that some of the things done during the Battle of Winterfell could probably just be bad writing. (spoilers)

A Love Song of Ice and Fire.

I hope Hank's right, but if he is, it does raise a more minor issue, that

sending a significant chunk of your army away during a fight for the fate of humanity so that you can win a political squabble later is really irresponsible.

[Infected Mushroom]

Back in Seasons 6-7

Jon: "We don't have enough men. This NK is going to kill us all with his giant army. We need the Wildlings, we need the help of the Lannisters, we need EVERYONE."

"... ... or we could just send Arya to kill him."

Meanwhile, since Season 7 Bran has been 100% chilling because he KNEW that "sigh... this NK is just a noob anyways. He's destined to die if I just death stare at him for long enough. I just have to keep my mouth shut so history runs as it should and everyone is in the right place. I would tell Jon to chill because he's really stressed out over nothing but SHRUGS...."

I don't know why people are so underwhelmed or shocked by this ending. The discussed the episode before it that the whole battle was a sort of feint. They can't kill the Night King with his army around, so Bran is used to draw the Night King out into the open away from his actual army. Arya couldn't have just slipped into Morder and killed him, he had to be brought into the open. Then she could go all Assassins Creed on his ass.

If this had happened back in Season 4, I would not make a big deal out of it. But this is completely inadequate for 7+ seasons of buildup.

So much is unanswered too. Was the Night King someone important or not? What's his motivation (is he just a biological weapon and nothing more)? Why is he going after Bran (Sam saying Bran representing the Realm's memory is poetic but that's it?)? The NK just lucked out on getting a dragon or he would literally NEVER have breached the Wall? Or did he have some kind of power of foresight and planning? How did the NK keep Jon and Danny away from most of the battle with his mist storm conjuration power? What kind of power was that?

Also, why didn't he have another lieutenant ride the zombie dragon and have that dragon roast Winterfell earlier (like how he used OP powers to break the whole Wall down)?

The whole thing just feels cheapened somehow.

But again, I can't be overly critical because I knew from some time ago this plot could go NOWHERE good.

[Atholl]

What did you expect? Cersei is a vile petty person, she isn't going to attract a whole lot of loyalty, especially not from any morally upright characters. Throughout the entire show's run, she has made next to no lasting allies and absolutely no friends. Qyburn and the Mounatain are really the only people, if you can still call Gregor a person, loyal to her, with the Gold Company and Euron being mercenaries, only as loyal as their paycheck is large. As we saw with Stannis, you shouldn't rely on such people to win a war. She can be persuasive, but she utterly lacks the capacity to inspire loyalty or win hearts. Compare her to Daenerys, whose zeal and sincerity allow her to win the loyalty of a diverse group of people, from Dothraki and Unsullied to disgraced Westerosi knights. Or to Jon, who, thanks to his compassion, stubbornness and devotion to honor is able to win the trust of the Wildlings he betrayed and helped defeat, who even without those facts were enemies of the Night's Watch for thousands of years, as well as being able to rally suspicious Northern lords against the Boltons despite his being a bastard (so far as they knew) and allowing the Wildlings to cross the Wall. The reason it's become good vs bad, more or less, is that no one else would be willing to work for Cersei.

Furthermore, the reason the bad guys have ended up with Cersei alone in control is because they destroyed each other long before the good guys consolidated, and it's thanks to Cersei and the even more incompetent Joffrey that this happened. Because of the reputation he earned, he was assassinated by Olena, which leads ultimately to Tywin and Oberyn dying, Varys and Tyrion defecting to Daenerys and Littlefigner taking Sansa to the Vale. The result is that the best force for stabilizing the Seven Kingdoms and readying Tommen to rule is removed, Dorne rebels against the Lannisters, Daenerys gains two useful allies and the useful hostage and, at this point, the person who is the only known rightful heir to the North is outside of their grasp. This is compounded by Cersei's attempts to use the High Sparrow to weaken the Tyrells, which blows up in her face, culminating in the Green Trial. This in turn drives the Reach to Danerys, just as Sansa and Littlefinger play a pivotal role in overthrowing the Boltons, freeing the North from Lannister influence. So, we know have two coalitions opposing the Lannisters, each with personal and political grievances, eager to see Cersei removed from the Iron Throne. The Lannisters screwed up, and kept screwing up, and eventually lost the family members who could compensate for those mistakes. That's why any "good" allies they might have had abandoned them over the course of the series, and why those allies joined their enemies.

You don't have to summarize the plot of the show for me. I'm well aware of the events that lead up to this point. I'm saying that they could have in other directions in order to have prevented it from being so black and white.

Not killing off Baelish being a good example.

Well the issue really is that the Night King/White Walker story line was always the weakest dor the very reason you are displeased at this episode. With the AotD, there was no grey area, no one cheered for the Night King. It was the boring Good v Evil story.

An article I read made the argument that had the show left the Night King looming over the last season, it would have made the entire narrative, from Season 1 through 8, focused on the bland Good v Evil concept. It would have diminished the more realistic aspect of the show. Remember, GRRM is really focused on not just a storyline, but also the granular dynamics of power, and how it is used. This show was always about the Iron Throne, and it should end as such.

[Infected Mushroom]

You don't have to summarize the plot of the show for me. I'm well aware of the events that lead up to this point. I'm saying that they could have in other directions in order to have prevented it from being so black and white.

Not killing off Baelish being a good example.

Well the issue really is that the Night King/White Walker story line was always the weakest dor the very reason you are displeased at this episode. With the AotD, there was no grey area, no one cheered for the Night King. It was the boring Good v Evil story.

An article I read made the argument that had the show left the Night King looming over the last season, it would have made the entire narrative, from Season 1 through 8, focused on the bland Good v Evil concept. It would have diminished the more realistic aspect of the show. Remember, GRRM is really focused on not just a storyline, but also the granular dynamics of power, and how it is used. This show was always about the Iron Throne, and it should end as such.

I want to say, I'm 100% happy that the NK is over and done with (with a reasonable but not overly done nod to Lord of the Rings style cliches) and that we're now returning to the far more interesting, compelling, and intense human political struggles.

BUT... But I fear D and D may screw this part up too...

I want (need) to believe that there is still good in these last 3 episodes. But WHY do I have this gut wrenching feeling that its about to further south (in more ways than one)?

[New haven america]

I personally think they could've brought Hot Pie up north and have him bake a very hot pie made from dragon berries that he would then smash onto the Night King, causing him to melt and winning the war