ASoIAF/Game of Thrones general Discussion Thread

[The Huskar Social Union]

Well that was awesome

[Tarsonis]

....we know all of those already. (In the show at least) The Night King was a weapon created by the Children of the forest, to help them fight off The First Men.

True, but I would have loved to get a bit more information about what had happened in the previous Long Night. That's my bigger issue, considering what epic prophecies we had, Arya underhandedly stabbing the Night King with a dagger seems a little bit too.. simple?
I can't say that I was fully a fan of the idea of Jon killing the Night King, it would have been too obvious, but I was really hyped for the whole story of Azor Ahai having to kill a loved one, Lightbringer, everything.

Right but that was never part of the prophecy. Never said Azor Ahai reborn would have to go through the events again.

[Atholl]

meh
Not enough people died. Simply based on what we saw, , Jamie, brienne, Sam and grey worm should all be dead.
The episode was to long. I understand why the lighting was done the way it was, but I would rather see what was going on.
And why does ghost look so damm small?

It would be way better payoff for Jaime and Brienne to die in the final act in King's Landing.

Sam is arguably the character most likely to survive, I mean, didn't GRRM say he was essentially himself?

Agree with you on Grey Worm, though I would have preferrred to have either Tormund or Gendry go too.

Any thoughts on Gilly? It looked like she got killed by the Wights in the Crypt but it was so chaotic I could not really tell.

[The Huskar Social Union]

I love the tidal wave effect the undead had in the opening parts of the battle, especially when they hit the Living Infantry.

Shoutout to the dothraki for their suicide charge, that was... a brilliant plan. Maybe they should have been deployed on the flanks and hit from the side after the undead hit the burning stake line, but heck all probably would have died anyway, like.... every other fucking soldier did. For the most part i really liked the battle, thought that was a bit eh though, but for the most part, very good, well done, well done indeed. Especially the carnage that unfolds when the door gets knocked down and the undead come tumbling in over the walls. RIP Unsullied though who got slaughtered outside, must have been brutal for Greyworm to drop the bridge across the stake line leaving them out there.

I thought more people would have died, i was expecting Brienne or Tormund to go down, same with Greyworm. But Jorah died in an awesome way, going down to protect Daenerys, Lady Mormont died killing a fucking wight giant! Go on little girl!

Sad Theon died, but i saw it coming when he said he would protect Bran. He ended up one of my favourite characters and Alfie Allen did a fantastic job in the role. Beric died, saw that coming, but i liked him so was still sad.

I was kind of hoping Jon would kill the Night King, but i did like the twist where Arya killed him near the end, pullin a move similar to rey in tlj in the throne room scene.

And everyone's theory about the undead in the crypts came true, though i doubt skeletons could punch through stone like that, but ah well, its fucking zombies.

[Ethel mermania]

meh
Not enough people died. Simply based on what we saw, , Jamie, brienne, Sam and grey worm should all be dead.
The episode was to long. I understand why the lighting was done the way it was, but I would rather see what was going on.
And why does ghost look so damm small?

It would be way better payoff for Jaime and Brienne to die in the final act in King's Landing.

Sam is arguably the character most likely to survive, I mean, didn't GRRM say he was essentially himself?

Agree with you on Grey Worm, though I would have preferrred to have either Tormund or Gendry go too.

Any thoughts on Gilly? It looked like she got killed by the Wights in the Crypt but it was so chaotic I could not really tell.

Vox put out a sk0recard

https://www.vox.com/2019/4/29/18522076/ ... winterfell

[Battlion]

MY DARLING BABY GHOST YOU SURVIVED (according to the episode 4 trailer)

Episode was really fun. Holding my breath during the entire ending, and Arya's whole stealth level at the library. Would have thought Jon would have been a little more useful but I guess the spotlight did have to go on to other characters. Arya FTW.

Where did you see Ghost surviving out of interest?

[The Huskar Social Union]

I love the tidal wave effect the undead had in the opening parts of the battle, especially when they hit the Living Infantry.

Shoutout to the dothraki for their suicide charge, that was... a brilliant plan. Maybe they should have been deployed on the flanks and hit from the side after the undead hit the burning stake line, but heck all probably would have died anyway, like.... every other fucking soldier did. For the most part i really liked the battle, thought that was a bit eh though, but for the most part, very good, well done, well done indeed. Especially the carnage that unfolds when the door gets knocked down and the undead come tumbling in over the walls. RIP Unsullied though who got slaughtered outside, must have been brutal for Greyworm to drop the bridge across the stake line leaving them out there.

I thought more people would have died, i was expecting Brienne or Tormund to go down, same with Greyworm. But Jorah died in an awesome way, going down to protect Daenerys, Lady Mormont died killing a fucking wight giant! Go on little girl!

Sad Theon died, but i saw it coming when he said he would protect Bran. He ended up one of my favourite characters and Alfie Allen did a fantastic job in the role. Beric died, saw that coming, but i liked him so was still sad.

I was kind of hoping Jon would kill the Night King, but i did like the twist where Arya killed him near the end, pullin a move similar to rey in tlj in the throne room scene.

And everyone's theory about the undead in the crypts came true, though i doubt skeletons could punch through stone like that, but ah well, its fucking zombies.

Oh and another thing

Why the fuck, did they have their artillery outside the walls, and in front of their infantry? Sure you should have had those, inside the walls, or at the least, infront of the walls but behind the infantry lines.

[Pasong Tirad]

MY DARLING BABY GHOST YOU SURVIVED (according to the episode 4 trailer)

Episode was really fun. Holding my breath during the entire ending, and Arya's whole stealth level at the library. Would have thought Jon would have been a little more useful but I guess the spotlight did have to go on to other characters. Arya FTW.

Where did you see Ghost surviving out of interest?

Check the episode 4 trailer.

[Battlion]

Where did you see Ghost surviving out of interest?

Check the episode 4 trailer.

Seen it now, it’s very brief though so I can see how I missed it... don’t understand how Ghost survived though... like what could he do?

[G-Tech Corporation]

I love the tidal wave effect the undead had in the opening parts of the battle, especially when they hit the Living Infantry.

Shoutout to the dothraki for their suicide charge, that was... a brilliant plan. Maybe they should have been deployed on the flanks and hit from the side after the undead hit the burning stake line, but heck all probably would have died anyway, like.... every other fucking soldier did. For the most part i really liked the battle, thought that was a bit eh though, but for the most part, very good, well done, well done indeed. Especially the carnage that unfolds when the door gets knocked down and the undead come tumbling in over the walls. RIP Unsullied though who got slaughtered outside, must have been brutal for Greyworm to drop the bridge across the stake line leaving them out there.

I thought more people would have died, i was expecting Brienne or Tormund to go down, same with Greyworm. But Jorah died in an awesome way, going down to protect Daenerys, Lady Mormont died killing a fucking wight giant! Go on little girl!

Sad Theon died, but i saw it coming when he said he would protect Bran. He ended up one of my favourite characters and Alfie Allen did a fantastic job in the role. Beric died, saw that coming, but i liked him so was still sad.

I was kind of hoping Jon would kill the Night King, but i did like the twist where Arya killed him near the end, pullin a move similar to rey in tlj in the throne room scene.

And everyone's theory about the undead in the crypts came true, though i doubt skeletons could punch through stone like that, but ah well, its fucking zombies.

Oh and another thing

Why the fuck, did they have their artillery outside the walls, and in front of their infantry? Sure you should have had those, inside the walls, or at the least, infront of the walls but behind the infantry lines.

There were definitely some questionable decisions made defensively speaking - like stationing the infantry in front of the flaming trench and not behind it, and failing to have any fire for when the dead assaulted the walls. Some flaming pitch here and there would have gone through those Wight-piles like so much tinder.

[Tracian Empire]

True, but I would have loved to get a bit more information about what had happened in the previous Long Night. That's my bigger issue, considering what epic prophecies we had, Arya underhandedly stabbing the Night King with a dagger seems a little bit too.. simple?
I can't say that I was fully a fan of the idea of Jon killing the Night King, it would have been too obvious, but I was really hyped for the whole story of Azor Ahai having to kill a loved one, Lightbringer, everything.

Right but that was never part of the prophecy. Never said Azor Ahai reborn would have to go through the events again.

It never did, but I don't like what the show did with the prophecy. I'm not even sure how it could be explained with what happened in this episodes. And yes, prophecies don't have be true, but that doesn't change the fact that for many, Arya just killing him like that was underwhelming.
And they could have at the very least done that without such a deus ex machina.

[Tarsonis]

Right but that was never part of the prophecy. Never said Azor Ahai reborn would have to go through the events again.

It never did, but I don't like what the show did with the prophecy. I'm not even sure how it could be explained with what happened in this episodes. And yes, prophecies don't have be true, but that doesn't change the fact that for many, Arya just killing him like that was underwhelming.
And they could have at the very least done that without such a deus ex machina.

I think Martin might be touching on particular issue regarding prophecy: they're usually vague and can be fulfilled by anybody, and people will often apply the loosest interpretation of a prophecy to claim it's true. That might be a copout, but it does fit given his inspirations

[Joohan]

Not gonna lie, seeing the lights of the dothraki go out in mere seconds and the silence that ensued after, especially after the absolute hype that was their swords getting lit up was absolutely terrifying.

As for the unsullied... just wow. The way that they fearlessly and flawlessly covered the retreat of their allies back into the citadel, without them ever breaking rank or running away to save themselves was just chilling. I seriously did not expect grey worm to survive.

It was pretty messed up to see Lady Mormont get killed in such a gruesome way - but I guess that it just GOT's MO.

Arya Stark out of freaking NOWHERE! I was always kind of hoping she would go on a commando raid to the red keep and kill Cersei - but this was WAAAY better! Number one badass, hands down.

Also, the night king has some terrible security...

[Otira]

It appears all the good battle commanders left to the good guys were absent from the planning, because that battle was pretty awful. I guessed it would be from the opening formations but it's almost like Dany & Jon were trying to get as many of their own people killed as possible. The Dothraki were utterly wasted, for one. What about burning ranging posts like the Boltons used? Why not just use the catapults first and light up the place first then split your cavalry so they don't all get added to the army of the dead? The Dothraki were also set up as archers in the series. Have them on the flanks performing forays pelting the undead with dragonglass arrows, not charging into the dead ranks to become zombies themselves.

And the trench? Dig multiple trenches since apparently the dead are only coming from one direction. Force them into attrition forcing their way through these burning trenches while your archers and artillery pelt them. And then instead of having one block of Unsullied in the center with blobs of men-at-arms on the flanks, align your troops with a line of Unsullied covering the front you intend to hold with companies of men-at-arms behind them to hack at any zombies that come flying over the Unsullied shields. And arrange this as a double line, with the rear Unsullied maniples maintaining those gaps to allow troops in the front to fall back (which they did allow for in the episode) and reform behind the next Unsullied phalanx. And what happened to the horses of the knights of the Vale? Were they slaughtered offscreen before the battle for food?

Overall, just a mess of a battle (from a production and narrative standpoint) and a weak ending. Arya's deeds were obvious from several episodes out. "Blah blah I've seen death, I'm an anime character now, blah blah."And she kills him with Valyrian steel, magical because it's forged with dragonfire, even though dragonfire itself apparently is useless. Bran just sits there doing nothing. An actual twist would have been Theon charging, being mortally wounded, and then Bran warging into the dying Theon to stab the NK with dragonglass from behind. Redemption for Theon and giving Bran something. Arya becoming a ninja when moments before basic level zombies are able to *hear blood falling* was ridiculous.

Lastly, like others have observed before, a show that got famous on killing characters is now afraid to kill many at all. Grey Worm can't stand and die with his brothers? We don't lose Brienne or Podrick, it appears, even though they've long since been unnecessary to the plot. The list goes on, but for the Battle of the Dawn Battle of Winterfell the main characters got through pretty well.

Really disappointing episode. Had some great visuals, but that's about it. Dany and Jon are constantly on the cusp of doing something great... and then can't. The only expectation subverted at this point was one of good writing. The episode felt as much of a sloppy mess as the train crash that was The Last Jedi.

[Tracian Empire]

It never did, but I don't like what the show did with the prophecy. I'm not even sure how it could be explained with what happened in this episodes. And yes, prophecies don't have be true, but that doesn't change the fact that for many, Arya just killing him like that was underwhelming.
And they could have at the very least done that without such a deus ex machina.

I think Martin might be touching on particular issue regarding prophecy: they're usually vague and can be fulfilled by anybody, and people will often apply the loosest interpretation of a prophecy to claim it's true. That might be a copout, but it does fit given his inspirations

In my opinion it's just lazy writing. There are other ways you could deal with that prophecy, there are other ways Arya could have ended up killing the Night King if she was supposed to, instead she just teleports over half of Winterfell, sneaks up on the Night King and all of his White Walkers and kills him with suck a trick. It is certainly cool from a certain perspective, but it also feels very underwhelming, and I am very happy that the books will most likely deal with the White Walkers/Others differently.
And you are right, prophecies are vague, and they can be fulfilled by anybody, but the whole prophecy of Azor Ahai has so much detail about it, and seems to be so central to the story, at least in the books, that just ignoring it like this seems well, like I said, lazy. A line mentioned by Melisandre that isn't even in the books as far as I know is a pretty weak way of dealing with the whole prophecy thing.

[Tarsonis]

I think Martin might be touching on particular issue regarding prophecy: they're usually vague and can be fulfilled by anybody, and people will often apply the loosest interpretation of a prophecy to claim it's true. That might be a copout, but it does fit given his inspirations

In my opinion it's just lazy writing. There are other ways you could deal with that prophecy, there are other ways Arya could have ended up killing the Night King if she was supposed to, instead she just teleports over half of Winterfell, sneaks up on the Night King and all of his White Walkers and kills him with suck a trick. It is certainly cool from a certain perspective, but it also feels very underwhelming, and I am very happy that the books will most likely deal with the White Walkers/Others differently.
And you are right, prophecies are vague, and they can be fulfilled by anybody, but the whole prophecy of Azor Ahai has so much detail about it, and seems to be so central to the story, at least in the books, that just ignoring it like this seems well, like I said, lazy. A line mentioned by Melisandre that isn't even in the books as far as I know is a pretty weak way of dealing with the whole prophecy thing.

I disagree.

"There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him.”

There's little to no details in the prophecy.

[Otira]

It never did, but I don't like what the show did with the prophecy. I'm not even sure how it could be explained with what happened in this episodes. And yes, prophecies don't have be true, but that doesn't change the fact that for many, Arya just killing him like that was underwhelming.
And they could have at the very least done that without such a deus ex machina.

I think Martin might be touching on particular issue regarding prophecy: they're usually vague and can be fulfilled by anybody, and people will often apply the loosest interpretation of a prophecy to claim it's true. That might be a copout, but it does fit given his inspirations

It doesn't have a lot to do with prophecy in the show or from the books. D&D say they just picked Arya because they thought the audience wouldn't expect it. Which the meta nature of such a decision contributes to why the outcome feels unnatural and underwhelming.

[Tracian Empire]

In my opinion it's just lazy writing. There are other ways you could deal with that prophecy, there are other ways Arya could have ended up killing the Night King if she was supposed to, instead she just teleports over half of Winterfell, sneaks up on the Night King and all of his White Walkers and kills him with suck a trick. It is certainly cool from a certain perspective, but it also feels very underwhelming, and I am very happy that the books will most likely deal with the White Walkers/Others differently.
And you are right, prophecies are vague, and they can be fulfilled by anybody, but the whole prophecy of Azor Ahai has so much detail about it, and seems to be so central to the story, at least in the books, that just ignoring it like this seems well, like I said, lazy. A line mentioned by Melisandre that isn't even in the books as far as I know is a pretty weak way of dealing with the whole prophecy thing.

I disagree.

"There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him.”

There's little to no details in the prophecy.

There is also the whole prince who was promised part, the whole born amidst smoke and salt, and waking up stone dragons. And the whole story about what Azor Ahai actually did and about how he created Lightbringer.

I'm completely alright with the idea of the prophecy being vague, I'm also fully aware that the idea of literally having someone wave a burning sword around is pretty limited - every single word in the prophecy might have a different meaning than what would be obvious. My issue isn't with that, my issue is that Arya simply seems to sidestep the whole thing. The prophecy is just so central to the story that I don't particularly like the idea of it being thrown away like this.

[Andsed]

Honestly I found the prophecy to just be cliche and just boring. So I am quite glad the show is doing this twist and ignoring all of this prophecy business.

[World Anarchic Union]

I really liked the episode, the battle I found was amazing, with all its different phases. For a sizable portion of it, especially after the NK raised once more the dead, I was on the edge of my seat, so that shows that for me it was a pretty great episode.

I quite liked that it was Arya and not Jon or someone else that killed the NK, although I may have preferred it if it was Bran in a way that would kill both him and the NK. I wasn’t expecting the ending, though, that’s for sure. The undead plot line was always secondary for me in terms of enjoyment and to see that the focus will be on humans battling between each other in the final episodes, perhaps with some infighting at some point down the road(?) is quite exciting.

If I had some complaints it would be that for one, the lighting could have been better because I was lost at some points during the chaos and I would have wanted some more characters to die, Tormund perhaps, Grey Worm certainly or Gendry, Brienne or Pod, and as I mentioned above perhaps Bran. But I was thoroughly entertained nonetheless and I am excited for the final four episodes even more.

[Tarsonis]

I disagree.

"There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him.”

There's little to no details in the prophecy.

There is also the whole prince who was promised part, the whole born amidst smoke and salt, and waking up stone dragons. And the whole story about what Azor Ahai actually did and about how he created Lightbringer.

I'm completely alright with the idea of the prophecy being vague, I'm also fully aware that the idea of literally having someone wave a burning sword around is pretty limited - every single word in the prophecy might have a different meaning than what would be obvious. My issue isn't with that, my issue is that Arya simply seems to sidestep the whole thing. The prophecy is just so central to the story that I don't particularly like the idea of it being thrown away like this.

It's also possible that, that is Martin's goal all along: prophecies are bullshit to begin with. Someone mentioned it on this thread a way back, that Martin himself isn't a fan of prophecy. Maybe the whole idea all along was for it never to be fulfilled.

[Tracian Empire]

There is also the whole prince who was promised part, the whole born amidst smoke and salt, and waking up stone dragons. And the whole story about what Azor Ahai actually did and about how he created Lightbringer.

I'm completely alright with the idea of the prophecy being vague, I'm also fully aware that the idea of literally having someone wave a burning sword around is pretty limited - every single word in the prophecy might have a different meaning than what would be obvious. My issue isn't with that, my issue is that Arya simply seems to sidestep the whole thing. The prophecy is just so central to the story that I don't particularly like the idea of it being thrown away like this.

It's also possible that, that is Martin's goal all along: prophecies are bullshit to begin with. Someone mentioned it on this thread a way back, that Martin himself isn't a fan of prophecy. Maybe the whole idea all along was for it never to be fulfilled.

Then at the very least they could have killed NK in a better way. There were just so many other ways through which Arya could have killed NK if they had decided to have her do that.

[The Huskar Social Union]

I love that there are no 3 star votes at all in this poll.

Either people love it or hate it.

[Tarsonis]

It's also possible that, that is Martin's goal all along: prophecies are bullshit to begin with. Someone mentioned it on this thread a way back, that Martin himself isn't a fan of prophecy. Maybe the whole idea all along was for it never to be fulfilled.

Then at the very least they could have killed NK in a better way. There were just so many other ways through which Arya could have killed NK if they had decided to have her do that.

::shrug:: i thought it was fine. She moved like a faceless man through the whole army and ganked the NK assassins creed style. Worked for me really. Honestly What I wanted from that scene was a little emotion from Bran. I know that would have been out of character, but when he looks over the Night King's shoulder and sees Arya flying like Etzio, I wanted to see like a small smirk or chuckle.

[Infected Mushroom]

Alright... WELL... WELL... (cough cough)... that was well....

Good piano music at the end there (two thumbs up there); I like the Arya Stark video game level thing going on (library stealth mission leading up to killing the NK, maybe it will come out on Playstation X one day).

Other than that... well, unfortunately I don't have a lot of good things to say.

I could not see what the hell was going on in 80% of the battle scenes, maybe that was intentional (a nod to fighting shadowy Death itself?) but it was definitely a very strange production decision. I'm sure most of the audience would rather have SEEN the battle considering it was hyped up so much.

Someone explain to me why Jon and Danny were flying around in a mist of hail/snow for half the battle. What was that about? I saw the NK cast some wind storm spell (he does that now????) and then for some reason for the next 20 mins or so you have Jon and Danny floating around in some ice storm and seemingly unable to return to the fight. Were they in another dimension? Strange stuff.

...

So we have 7+ seasons of buildup ofthis Huge Winter Threat only for it to all come down to trying to pull a JFK hit on the Night King when he's taking his time killing Bran like a cliched villain?

All of Season 6 going: "OMG THIS ARMY OF THE DEAD IS GOING TO KILL US ALL!!!!!! WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH MEN!" ... except we did?

So Arya was the promised one then or maybe those are just dumb prophecies but eh... whatever...

...

I can't be too harsh because honestly from a writer's point of view it's really really hard (probably impossible) to make this story arc involving a Night King and a zombie army and three dragons end up anywhere good. This is as CLEAN a way as any to wrap it up and I'm glad its all cleaned up in 3 episodes so we can still have 3 episode of true politics and dynastic wars left.

You know... what made the show great in the first place.

TLDR... NK (and Jon Snow's populistic uniting of the people arc) is finally finished after 8 seasons.

Now we can get back to the real fun (hopefully, if they still remember how to write a great story) of King's Landing, Cersei Lannister, Rains of Castamere, Bronn of the Blackwater, intra-sibling rivalries and betrayals the world over, and victory at the cost of moral sacrifice (with hopefully a good dose of witty dialogue)

GOODBYE NIGHT KING (and your arc won't be missed)

We still have 3 episodes to repair what has been done.

Maybe we can now have more of throne room betrayals, War of the Five Kings, and morally complicated King's Road adventures and ironic weddings

Less LOTR please