Many Bothans Died To Bring You THE STAR WARS THREAD

[The Rich Port]

To be fair, I hate Sith more than I do Jedi.

Sith and Jedi are two sides of the same coin, the same problem with different outcomes. Their contact with the Force means they will either piss someone off with their goody two-shoe bullshit or they'll destroy everything.

Neither Jedi or Sith understand that the Force is about balance. The Jedi more often than not will try to make everyone be good, something that is not possible without good governance (something they don't seem to have had direct intervention with ever except in the time before the beginning of KOTOR 1). Sith, on the other hand, have absolutely horrible theological practices, but perhaps most stupid of all was the Rule of Two. If someone really wanted to, they could have killed the shit out of the only two Sith that are supposed to exist (something that's impossible to enforce, BTW) and ended the Sith for another 1,000 years until a Jedi falls far enough. The Rule of One kind of fixed that, but it failed to take into account the overall stupidity of Sith ways: ambition is good in moderation, but too much will eventually cause the Bubble of Power to burst.

What the Jedi and Sith fail to realize is that most people don't want to be too good, but don't want to be too bad either. Massive numbers, superior technology and individual and collective desires of the grand majority of non-Force-sensitives will always trump whatever superiority Force-users would have.

The rule of two was designed specifically to prevent that from happening. Why? Because that's exactly what was happening. Back in the war that was going on 1000 BBY the Sith were clearly losing due to mass-produced "sith" that were about as apt in sith ways as you and I are. In other words, the late Sith Empire chose survival through numbers, and Bane saw that it simply wasn't going to work. By replacing the 3000+ weak sith with two extremely powerful sith, the survival of the sith order could be practically ensured as long as no one broke the Rule of Two or was exceptionally idiotic (and, note, the reason it all collapsed was because Palpy was exceptionally idiotic AND tried to brake the Rule).


Also, you sound like you're leaning towards Grey Jedi-ness, or something along those lines.

... Really? I thought they were WINNING thanks to the Star Forge, fer Crissakes.

And, honestly, it's an impossible standard considering Sith teachings about power, passion, ambition, etc. You can't be traditional while also emphasizing change, improvement and progress.

I thought Palpatine was the smartest Sith lord, what with him... Becoming ruler by consensus of an intergalactic empire. Yeah, he was a tyrannical asshole and he brought Vader along who was sure to kill him for the wrong reason, but what if he wasn't? What if he'd let Vader die and gotten a more subservient apprentice?

And, honestly... I'm confused as to what the ultimate goal of Sith ideology is. Is it to crush the Jedi? Is it to rule the galaxy? Is it to create the perfect Sith race? Is it to just be powerful and war constantly?

At least the Jedi have an obvious, big goal: peace, prosperity, and happiness.

Most definitely. The Force is gray, after all.

[Bezombia]

The rule of two was designed specifically to prevent that from happening. Why? Because that's exactly what was happening. Back in the war that was going on 1000 BBY the Sith were clearly losing due to mass-produced "sith" that were about as apt in sith ways as you and I are. In other words, the late Sith Empire chose survival through numbers, and Bane saw that it simply wasn't going to work. By replacing the 3000+ weak sith with two extremely powerful sith, the survival of the sith order could be practically ensured as long as no one broke the Rule of Two or was exceptionally idiotic (and, note, the reason it all collapsed was because Palpy was exceptionally idiotic AND tried to brake the Rule).


Also, you sound like you're leaning towards Grey Jedi-ness, or something along those lines.

... Really? I thought they were WINNING thanks to the Star Forge, fer Crissakes.

And, honestly, it's an impossible standard considering Sith teachings about power, passion, ambition, etc. You can't be traditional while also emphasizing change, improvement and progress.

I thought Palpatine was the smartest Sith lord, what with him... Becoming ruler by consensus of an intergalactic empire. Yeah, he was a tyrannical asshole and he brought Vader along who was sure to kill him for the wrong reason, but what if he wasn't? What if he'd let Vader die and gotten a more subservient apprentice?

And, honestly... I'm confused as to what the ultimate goal of Sith ideology is. Is it to crush the Jedi? Is it to rule the galaxy? Is it to create the perfect Sith race? Is it to just be powerful and war constantly?

At least the Jedi have an obvious, big goal: peace, prosperity, and happiness.

Most definitely. The Force is gray, after all.

1: Nope. If they were winning, Bane wouldn't have had to kill all of them to try and start over.

2: The Sith (at least Bane's sith) saw power as a means to an end. Ambition, passion, etc. were all just stepping stones down the path of what they saw as enlightenment.

3: Palpatine wasn't the smartest Sith lord by a long shot. His own master, Pelagius, was far smarter and more powerful than he was. Bane, Revan, Zannah, Cognus, Caedus, and countless others were all more powerful than Palpy ever was. Palpatine took advantage of what he'd been given. Any one of the sith before him could have done what he did, but he was stupid enough to not realize that if he took the opportunity it would fail. This is something that all those before him, all the way back to Bane & Zannah, knew full well was the case. Palpatine, for some reason or another, either somehow didn't realize that or DID realize it and chose to ignore it.

4: The ultimate goal of the Sith is, quite honestly, the same thing as the Jedi, just on a more individual scale. Where the Jedi want peace and prosperity for the whole galaxy, the Sith believe that galactic order can only be achieved if everyone in it is at peace with themselves. That's what the Code of the Sith was all about; seeking freedom on an individual level, which would presumably lead to freedom on a civilizational level. It isn't really "good vs. evil" (although both sides see it like that), but more like "Yin vs. Yang". Same goal, different methods of achieving it.

5: I'd argue that the Force doesn't even take that side. Perhaps the Living Force was, but the Unifying Force certainly was not. At least in that sense, even "grey" was taking a side (it was taking the side of no side).

[The Rich Port]

... Really? I thought they were WINNING thanks to the Star Forge, fer Crissakes.

And, honestly, it's an impossible standard considering Sith teachings about power, passion, ambition, etc. You can't be traditional while also emphasizing change, improvement and progress.

I thought Palpatine was the smartest Sith lord, what with him... Becoming ruler by consensus of an intergalactic empire. Yeah, he was a tyrannical asshole and he brought Vader along who was sure to kill him for the wrong reason, but what if he wasn't? What if he'd let Vader die and gotten a more subservient apprentice?

And, honestly... I'm confused as to what the ultimate goal of Sith ideology is. Is it to crush the Jedi? Is it to rule the galaxy? Is it to create the perfect Sith race? Is it to just be powerful and war constantly?

At least the Jedi have an obvious, big goal: peace, prosperity, and happiness.

Most definitely. The Force is gray, after all.

1: Nope. If they were winning, Bane wouldn't have had to kill all of them to try and start over.

2: The Sith (at least Bane's sith) saw power as a means to an end. Ambition, passion, etc. were all just stepping stones down the path of what they saw as enlightenment.

3: Palpatine wasn't the smartest Sith lord by a long shot. His own master, Pelagius, was far smarter and more powerful than he was. Bane, Revan, Zannah, Cognus, Caedus, and countless others were all more powerful than Palpy ever was. Palpatine took advantage of what he'd been given. Any one of the sith before him could have done what he did, but he was stupid enough to not realize that if he took the opportunity it would fail. This is something that all those before him, all the way back to Bane & Zannah, knew full well was the case. Palpatine, for some reason or another, either somehow didn't realize that or DID realize it and chose to ignore it.

4: The ultimate goal of the Sith is, quite honestly, the same thing as the Jedi, just on a more individual scale. Where the Jedi want peace and prosperity for the whole galaxy, the Sith believe that galactic order can only be achieved if everyone in it is at peace with themselves. That's what the Code of the Sith was all about; seeking freedom on an individual level, which would presumably lead to freedom on a civilizational level. It isn't really "good vs. evil" (although both sides see it like that), but more like "Yin vs. Yang". Same goal, different methods of achieving it.

5: I'd argue that the Force doesn't even take that side. Perhaps the Living Force was, but the Unifying Force certainly was not. At least in that sense, even "grey" was taking a side (it was taking the side of no side).

Wait... I thought the Sith were defeated by Revan in KOTOR. If Revan hadn't been there... I'm confused.

So, Bane and his Sith were basically Anarchists... And that's already a pipe dream in the real world...

Well, shit, if you're arguing semantics... "No side" is not a side, even if it is a side; it's the side that is not picking sides. It would be one thing if it were Jedi who lived by both Sith and Jedi teachings.

The Force is simply the life energy of the universe. It is not good or evil by itself. It can corrupt because, if it's power is not controlled, it will overcome it's user. It's up to the users to control themselves or not, lest the Force overwhelm them, physically, mentally, emotionally, etc.

[Bezombia]

1: Nope. If they were winning, Bane wouldn't have had to kill all of them to try and start over.

2: The Sith (at least Bane's sith) saw power as a means to an end. Ambition, passion, etc. were all just stepping stones down the path of what they saw as enlightenment.

3: Palpatine wasn't the smartest Sith lord by a long shot. His own master, Pelagius, was far smarter and more powerful than he was. Bane, Revan, Zannah, Cognus, Caedus, and countless others were all more powerful than Palpy ever was. Palpatine took advantage of what he'd been given. Any one of the sith before him could have done what he did, but he was stupid enough to not realize that if he took the opportunity it would fail. This is something that all those before him, all the way back to Bane & Zannah, knew full well was the case. Palpatine, for some reason or another, either somehow didn't realize that or DID realize it and chose to ignore it.

4: The ultimate goal of the Sith is, quite honestly, the same thing as the Jedi, just on a more individual scale. Where the Jedi want peace and prosperity for the whole galaxy, the Sith believe that galactic order can only be achieved if everyone in it is at peace with themselves. That's what the Code of the Sith was all about; seeking freedom on an individual level, which would presumably lead to freedom on a civilizational level. It isn't really "good vs. evil" (although both sides see it like that), but more like "Yin vs. Yang". Same goal, different methods of achieving it.

5: I'd argue that the Force doesn't even take that side. Perhaps the Living Force was, but the Unifying Force certainly was not. At least in that sense, even "grey" was taking a side (it was taking the side of no side).

Wait... I thought the Sith were defeated by Revan in KOTOR. If Revan hadn't been there... I'm confused.

So, Bane and his Sith were basically Anarchists... And that's already a pipe dream in the real world...

Well, shit, if you're arguing semantics... "No side" is not a side, even if it is a side; it's the side that is not picking sides. It would be one thing if it were Jedi who lived by both Sith and Jedi teachings.

The Force is simply the life energy of the universe. It is not good or evil by itself. It can corrupt because, if it's power is not controlled, it will overcome it's user. It's up to the users to control themselves or not, lest the Force overwhelm them, physically, mentally, emotionally, etc.

1: Not at all. The Sith Empire (or, as it existed at that time, The Brotherhood of the Sith) was completely destroyed by Darth Bane at the Seventh Battle of Ruusan, 1000 BBY. He did this to establish the Rule of Two.

2: In a sense, yes, but I feel that the term "anarchist" may not truly fit them. The Jedi didn't inherently believe in a central authority either, they believed in communal expression through the Force (where the Sith believe in individual expression through the Force). It isn't "anarchist v. statist" as much as it is "individualist v. collectivist".

3: No side is still a side. Think of it like this: in space, there's nothing there. Outside the universe, there isn't even that. That's the difference between "no side" and the "no no side"ness of the Unifying Force. I'm probably not explaining this as well as I could be...

[The Rich Port]

Wait... I thought the Sith were defeated by Revan in KOTOR. If Revan hadn't been there... I'm confused.

So, Bane and his Sith were basically Anarchists... And that's already a pipe dream in the real world...

Well, shit, if you're arguing semantics... "No side" is not a side, even if it is a side; it's the side that is not picking sides. It would be one thing if it were Jedi who lived by both Sith and Jedi teachings.

The Force is simply the life energy of the universe. It is not good or evil by itself. It can corrupt because, if it's power is not controlled, it will overcome it's user. It's up to the users to control themselves or not, lest the Force overwhelm them, physically, mentally, emotionally, etc.

1: Not at all. The Sith Empire (or, as it existed at that time, The Brotherhood of the Sith) was completely destroyed by Darth Bane at the Seventh Battle of Ruusan, 1000 BBY. He did this to establish the Rule of Two.

2: In a sense, yes, but I feel that the term "anarchist" may not truly fit them. The Jedi didn't inherently believe in a central authority either, they believed in communal expression through the Force (where the Sith believe in individual expression through the Force). It isn't "anarchist v. statist" as much as it is "individualist v. collectivist".

3: No side is still a side. Think of it like this: in space, there's nothing there. Outside the universe, there isn't even that. That's the difference between "no side" and the "no no side"ness of the Unifying Force. I'm probably not explaining this as well as I could be...

Ah, whatever... I don't know lore.

To be fair, my theory is that the Force is not just a "life" thing, it's also a physics thing. It's not just where life is, because the Yuuzhan Vong are living things (... Right?) and they're completely devoid of the Force... Wait... My head hurts.

[Bezombia]

1: Not at all. The Sith Empire (or, as it existed at that time, The Brotherhood of the Sith) was completely destroyed by Darth Bane at the Seventh Battle of Ruusan, 1000 BBY. He did this to establish the Rule of Two.

2: In a sense, yes, but I feel that the term "anarchist" may not truly fit them. The Jedi didn't inherently believe in a central authority either, they believed in communal expression through the Force (where the Sith believe in individual expression through the Force). It isn't "anarchist v. statist" as much as it is "individualist v. collectivist".

3: No side is still a side. Think of it like this: in space, there's nothing there. Outside the universe, there isn't even that. That's the difference between "no side" and the "no no side"ness of the Unifying Force. I'm probably not explaining this as well as I could be...

Ah, whatever... I don't know lore.

To be fair, my theory is that the Force is not just a "life" thing, it's also a physics thing. It's not just where life is, because the Yuuzhan Vong are living things (... Right?) and they're completely devoid of the Force... Wait... My head hurts.

The Yuuzhan Vong are devoid of the Force now. They weren't always.

[The Rich Port]

Ah, whatever... I don't know lore.

To be fair, my theory is that the Force is not just a "life" thing, it's also a physics thing. It's not just where life is, because the Yuuzhan Vong are living things (... Right?) and they're completely devoid of the Force... Wait... My head hurts.

The Yuuzhan Vong are devoid of the Force now. They weren't always.

Right! So... What was my point again?

Maybe the Force is also keeping the universe together?

I don't know.

Anyway, my point is, Jedi and Sith have very narrow understandings of the Force.

[Bezombia]

The Yuuzhan Vong are devoid of the Force now. They weren't always.

Right! So... What was my point again?

Maybe the Force is also keeping the universe together?

I don't know.

Anyway, my point is, Jedi and Sith have very narrow understandings of the Force.

The Force exists in two forms. The Living Force, which actively interacts with its tenants and gives people those cool Matrix-like powers, and the Unifying Force, which doesn't actively interact with anything and is more like the strings holding up a puppet but there's no central puppet master.

[The Rich Port]

Right! So... What was my point again?

Maybe the Force is also keeping the universe together?

I don't know.

Anyway, my point is, Jedi and Sith have very narrow understandings of the Force.

The Force exists in two forms. The Living Force, which actively interacts with its tenants and gives people those cool Matrix-like powers, and the Unifying Force, which doesn't actively interact with anything and is more like the strings holding up a puppet but there's no central puppet master.

... They're two separate things?

... That makes no sense.

[Bezombia]

The Force exists in two forms. The Living Force, which actively interacts with its tenants and gives people those cool Matrix-like powers, and the Unifying Force, which doesn't actively interact with anything and is more like the strings holding up a puppet but there's no central puppet master.

... They're two separate things?

... That makes no sense.

Separate but linked. Some say that the Living Force is merely the "arms" of the Unifying Force, allowing it to inact its will in a direct manner, where others say that the Living Force and Unifying Force are equal in power and merely express that power in different ways.
There's no real consensus, either in-universe or by the authors writing the books that define the universe. The whole concept has only been touched upon a handful of times.

[The Rich Port]

... They're two separate things?

... That makes no sense.

Separate but linked. Some say that the Living Force is merely the "arms" of the Unifying Force, allowing it to inact its will in a direct manner, where others say that the Living Force and Unifying Force are equal in power and merely express that power in different ways.
There's no real consensus, either in-universe or by the authors writing the books that define the universe. The whole concept has only been touched upon a handful of times.

It would make no sense for them to be COMPLETELY separate, and it makes little sense to consider them "separate" if they're linked.

I think it's just one globby body, it's everywhere, and it's just obvious in living things.

Then again, I guess midichlorians send that completely to shit because now there's a strictly biological manifestation for it on the Living side.

What would be the non-biological manifestation of it? Physics?

[Bezombia]

Separate but linked. Some say that the Living Force is merely the "arms" of the Unifying Force, allowing it to inact its will in a direct manner, where others say that the Living Force and Unifying Force are equal in power and merely express that power in different ways.
There's no real consensus, either in-universe or by the authors writing the books that define the universe. The whole concept has only been touched upon a handful of times.

It would make no sense for them to be COMPLETELY separate, and it makes little sense to consider them "separate" if they're linked.

I think it's just one globby body, it's everywhere, and it's just obvious in living things.

Then again, I guess midichlorians send that completely to shit because now there's a strictly biological manifestation for it on the Living side.

What would be the non-biological manifestation of it? Physics?

Destiny, for the most part.

Ya know how some jedi/sith claim to have seen the future? How can you see the future if the future isn't set in stone?
The idea here is that it is set in stone. The Unifying Force comes up with what to carve and the Living Force actually goes and carves it.

[The Rich Port]

It would make no sense for them to be COMPLETELY separate, and it makes little sense to consider them "separate" if they're linked.

I think it's just one globby body, it's everywhere, and it's just obvious in living things.

Then again, I guess midichlorians send that completely to shit because now there's a strictly biological manifestation for it on the Living side.

What would be the non-biological manifestation of it? Physics?

Destiny, for the most part.

Ya know how some jedi/sith claim to have seen the future? How can you see the future if the future isn't set in stone?
The idea here is that it is set in stone. The Unifying Force comes up with what to carve and the Living Force actually goes and carves it.

Maybe what they see is possible futures.

Or... Maybe the Jedi and the Sith's fighting is what keeps the balance?

Because it's very cyclical already. Either the Jedi are winning or the Sith are winning at one time or another.

Or maybe the Jedi and Sith are the ones who cause imbalances, and it's non-Force users who keep it?

I swear, if it turns out like Mass Effect, I'm gonna be pissed. Fucking robots always think they're so smart.

[MERIZoC]

It would make no sense for them to be COMPLETELY separate, and it makes little sense to consider them "separate" if they're linked.

I think it's just one globby body, it's everywhere, and it's just obvious in living things.

Then again, I guess midichlorians send that completely to shit because now there's a strictly biological manifestation for it on the Living side.

What would be the non-biological manifestation of it? Physics?

Destiny, for the most part.

Ya know how some jedi/sith claim to have seen the future? How can you see the future if the future isn't set in stone?
The idea here is that it is set in stone. The Unifying Force comes up with what to carve and the Living Force actually goes and carves it.

On top of this, there are conflicting views over which Force to follow, or even which Force exists. Qui-Gon was a proponent of the living Force, while Yoda was a proponent of the Unifying Force.

[Bezombia]

Destiny, for the most part.

Ya know how some jedi/sith claim to have seen the future? How can you see the future if the future isn't set in stone?
The idea here is that it is set in stone. The Unifying Force comes up with what to carve and the Living Force actually goes and carves it.

Maybe what they see is possible futures.

Or... Maybe the Jedi and the Sith's fighting is what keeps the balance?

Because it's very cyclical already. Either the Jedi are winning or the Sith are winning at one time or another.

Or maybe the Jedi and Sith are the ones who cause imbalances, and it's non-Force users who keep it?

I swear, if it turns out like Mass Effect, I'm gonna be pissed. Fucking robots always think they're so smart.

Now we're getting into the really theoretical stuff, but it's been discussed that the Jedi and Sith are...well let me explain it like this.

Imagine you have one person that's playing a game of chess with himself. He's playing as both sides, white and black. No matter the outcome he wins, but because his intellect will be the same for both sides white and black will be mostly evenly matched, and each take from one side will probably be mirroed with a take from the other.
In a way, that's how the Unifying Force works. It's the same entity that wraps it all up, but it controls all conflicting sides. Once could then say that the Living Force is the man's hands that actually move the pieces, where the Unifying Force is the man's brain that thinks of what the moves will be.


So, really, there isn't any one thing that "keeps" the balance, as balance is inherent to the existence of the Unifying Force. As TUF doesn't have a side it doesn't favor any one side over the others, so there is a true "balance" between them. The actual jedi and Sith are merely pawns in the chess game.

[MERIZoC]

Maybe what they see is possible futures.

Or... Maybe the Jedi and the Sith's fighting is what keeps the balance?

Because it's very cyclical already. Either the Jedi are winning or the Sith are winning at one time or another.

Or maybe the Jedi and Sith are the ones who cause imbalances, and it's non-Force users who keep it?

I swear, if it turns out like Mass Effect, I'm gonna be pissed. Fucking robots always think they're so smart.

Now we're getting into the really theoretical stuff, but it's been discussed that the Jedi and Sith are...well let me explain it like this.

Imagine you have one person that's playing a game of chess with himself. He's playing as both sides, white and black. No matter the outcome he wins, but because his intellect will be the same for both sides white and black will be mostly evenly matched, and each take from one side will probably be mirroed with a take from the other.
In a way, that's how the Unifying Force works. It's the same entity that wraps it all up, but it controls all conflicting sides. Once could then say that the Living Force is the man's hands that actually move the pieces, where the Unifying Force is the man's brain that thinks of what the moves will be.


So, really, there isn't any one thing that "keeps" the balance, as balance is inherent to the existence of the Unifying Force. As TUF doesn't have a side it doesn't favor any one side over the others, so there is a true "balance" between them. The actual jedi and Sith are merely pawns in the chess game.

Yeah, this kind of ties into the idea of the insidious force which Darth Traya and Luke Skywalker believed in. Not quite sure how to explain it further, but here's a link.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Force#The_insidious_Force

[Bezombia]

All the different in-universe interpretations of the Force are very similar to real-world interpretations of different religions. "The Insidious Force" mirrors a sentiment held be a large number of people in real life about gods.

[MERIZoC]

All the different in-universe interpretations of the Force are very similar to real-world interpretations of different religions. "The Insidious Force" mirrors a sentiment held be a large number of people in real life about gods.

Yeah, I think I heard that Lucas even modeled some aspects of the Force after Buddhist beliefs. It would make sense for more real-world parallels.

[The Rich Port]

All the different in-universe interpretations of the Force are very similar to real-world interpretations of different religions. "The Insidious Force" mirrors a sentiment held be a large number of people in real life about gods.

Yeah, I think I heard that Lucas even modeled some aspects of the Force after Buddhist beliefs. It would make sense for more real-world parallels.

Well... Duh, guys. George Lucas isn't THAT creative.

Honestly, I get the feeling Lucas doesn't give a shit either way.

This is the guy that spent millions making graphical improvements to his movies nobody else noticed or gave a shit about, after all.

The first Star Wars movie is very self-contained in that regard: the plot itself has been told millions of times before in different incarnations. The characters all fit snugly into really old archetypes.

I do give Lucas credit for his many aesthetic and scientific ideas and the EU authors for trying to flesh it out, but... Come on.

[The Rich Port]

I think the reason the current mythos is so odd/incomplete is because it's disjointed: there's a huge discrepancy between the movies and everything else.

So, really, we could just chalk it up to lazy writers.

[The Rich Port]

Though, really, where are the lazy writers?

I'm gonna say movies.

In the movies, it's really obvious who the Good Guys are and who the Bad Guys are.

Whereas the EU and other works leaves the Force morally ambiguous.

[MERIZoC]

Though, really, where are the lazy writers?

I'm gonna say movies.

In the movies, it's really obvious who the Good Guys are and who the Bad Guys are.

Whereas the EU and other works leaves the Force morally ambiguous.

I'd disagree that the movies always define the characters as good or evil. The original trilogy mostly did that, but in the prequels, it was a bit more ambiguous. The Separatists, while being portrayed as the "bad guys", did point out flaws with the Republic, and Anakin, even with all the terrible things he did, was doing those things in the hope of protecting his wife.

[Bezombia]

The reason this seems disjointed is really just because it isn't a subject that comes up a lot. The number of books that actually mention the Unifying Force probably numbers less than five.

The more "normal" cannon, such as events and less philosophical concepts, are generally very well fleshed out and mostly continuous between different works, even between different authors. There's a couple minor dependencies (for example, nobody can agree on what cortosis actually does to lightsabers...some books have it just turn it off with no other effects, while others have it permanently destroy the saber), but for the most part everything's pretty clean.

[The Rich Port]

Though, really, where are the lazy writers?

I'm gonna say movies.

In the movies, it's really obvious who the Good Guys are and who the Bad Guys are.

Whereas the EU and other works leaves the Force morally ambiguous.

I'd disagree that the movies always define the characters as good or evil. The original trilogy mostly did that, but in the prequels, it was a bit more ambiguous. The Separatists, while being portrayed as the "bad guys", did point out flaws with the Republic, and Anakin, even with all the terrible things he did, was doing those things in the hope of protecting his wife.

Actually, whatever the Separatists did doesn't matter, because almost the whole of the Separatist movement was created by Palpatine to get himself into power.

And, frankly, that's fine. Anakin was just an asshole about it. He cared more about the politics of the Jedi Council and being recognized as a Jedi than he did about doing what was right... What would have happened if he'd just left the Jedi to be with his wife?

I really wish they'd make movies about Obi-Wan. Seems like a way better Jedi to have adventures with. He's funny, intelligent, good... Probably scored chicks too and he didn't have to be an asshole about it.

[Bezombia]

I'd disagree that the movies always define the characters as good or evil. The original trilogy mostly did that, but in the prequels, it was a bit more ambiguous. The Separatists, while being portrayed as the "bad guys", did point out flaws with the Republic, and Anakin, even with all the terrible things he did, was doing those things in the hope of protecting his wife.

Actually, whatever the Separatists did doesn't matter, because almost the whole of the Separatist movement was created by Palpatine to get himself into power.

And, frankly, that's fine. Anakin was just an asshole about it. He cared more about the politics of the Jedi Council and being recognized as a Jedi than he did about doing what was right... What would have happened if he'd just left the Jedi to be with his wife?

I really wish they'd make movies about Obi-Wan. Seems like a way better Jedi to have adventures with. He's funny, intelligent, good... Probably scored chicks too and he didn't have to be an asshole about it.

Obi-Wan only ever had one suitor. Iirc it lasted like a week because he knew it was wrong, and he left her never to look back.