NationStates

Posted: **Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:55 pm**

The Huskar Social Union wrote:
The Armed Republic of Dutch Coolness wrote:Are you a coward? Or do you just not know what orbital shields are?

Nah, just smarter than your average beaver.

Also shields will give out eventually.

Or so he thinks! :^)

Posted: **Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:25 pm**

The Armed Republic of Dutch Coolness wrote:
The Huskar Social Union wrote:Nah, just smarter than your average beaver.

Also shields will give out eventually.

Or so he thinks! :^)

Well, you know how it goes. A given principle works until it gets eaten by Tyranids.

Posted: **Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:25 pm**

Hurdergaryp wrote:
The Armed Republic of Dutch Coolness wrote:Or so he thinks! :^)

Well, you know how it goes. A given principle works until it gets eaten by Tyranids.

Yesssssssssssssssss

Posted: **Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:07 pm**

I find the theory that the Alpha Legion is still loyal to the Emperor to be a fascinating one, as such they are very much my favorite Traitor Legion.

I like how the Word Bearers have no votes and the World Eaters only have 2. Just seems funny to me. Obviously Word Bearers is worst Legion.

Posted: **Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:10 pm**

The Imperial Reach wrote:I find the theory that the Alpha Legion is still loyal to the Emperor to be a fascinating one, as such they are very much my favorite Traitor Legion.

I like how the Word Bearers have no votes and the World Eaters only have 2. Just seems funny to me. Obviously Word Bearers is worst Legion.

It's cause their Primarch is a little bitch.

Posted: **Mon Jun 25, 2018 11:11 pm**

Ameriganastan wrote:
The Imperial Reach wrote:I find the theory that the Alpha Legion is still loyal to the Emperor to be a fascinating one, as such they are very much my favorite Traitor Legion.

I like how the Word Bearers have no votes and the World Eaters only have 2. Just seems funny to me. Obviously Word Bearers is worst Legion.

It's cause their Primarch is a little bitch.

I mean, you're not wrong...

Posted: **Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:30 am**

The Imperial Reach wrote:
Ameriganastan wrote:It's cause their Primarch is a little bitch.

I mean, you're not wrong...

He becomes a badass by "Aurelian",

but other than that yeah.

Posted: **Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:30 am**

When my Fists Transfers arrived the other day they gave me another set of codes for Inquisitor Martyr.

Stop it GW, stop!

Posted: **Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:03 am**

The Imperial Reach wrote:I find the theory that the Alpha Legion is still loyal to the Emperor to be a fascinating one, as such they are very much my favorite Traitor Legion.

I'm not sure your average Alpha Legion Astartes has any idea if they are still loyal to the emprah or not.

Posted: **Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:52 am**

The Imperial Reach wrote:I find the theory that the Alpha Legion is still loyal to the Emperor to be a fascinating one, as such they are very much my favorite Traitor Legion.

I liked Dan Abnett's "Legion" as a novel, but as a piece of fluff it's a headache that's best left ignored.

Posted: **Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:53 am**

Baltenstein wrote:
The Imperial Reach wrote:I find the theory that the Alpha Legion is still loyal to the Emperor to be a fascinating one, as such they are very much my favorite Traitor Legion.

I liked Dan Abnett's "Legion" as a novel, but as a piece of fluff it's a headache that's best left ignored.

Oh Legion was a good one, i really enjoyed it.

Posted: **Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:09 am**

Found a dump of pictures on Imgur, and it seemed relevant enough to share.

Posted: **Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:14 am**

Hirota wrote:
The Imperial Reach wrote:I find the theory that the Alpha Legion is still loyal to the Emperor to be a fascinating one, as such they are very much my favorite Traitor Legion.
I'm not sure your average Alpha Legion Astartes has any idea if they are still loyal to the emprah or not.

Probably not, but the idea that at least most of them are is interesting to me.

Baltenstein wrote:
The Imperial Reach wrote:I find the theory that the Alpha Legion is still loyal to the Emperor to be a fascinating one, as such they are very much my favorite Traitor Legion.

I liked Dan Abnett's "Legion" as a novel, but as a piece of fluff it's a headache that's best left ignored.

How so?

Posted: **Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:13 am**

little thing i found for you IW fan boys

Posted: **Wed Jun 27, 2018 1:34 am**

The Huskar Social Union wrote:little thing i found for you IW fan boys

Most excellent!

Posted: **Wed Jun 27, 2018 4:34 am**

The Imperial Reach wrote:
Hirota wrote:I'm not sure your average Alpha Legion Astartes has any idea if they are still loyal to the emprah or not.

Probably not, but the idea that at least most of them are is interesting to me.

Baltenstein wrote:
I liked Dan Abnett's "Legion" as a novel, but as a piece of fluff it's a headache that's best left ignored.

How so?

In my personal opinion, it's confusing and hasn't thought its own train of thought through properly.

Posted: **Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:46 am**

Baltenstein wrote:
The Imperial Reach wrote:
Probably not, but the idea that at least most of them are is interesting to me.

How so?

In my personal opinion, it's confusing and hasn't thought its own train of thought through properly.

The Alpha Legion did play a pretty damn huge role in the heresy, for both sides.

But I agree, there are quite a few major issues with the Cabal plotline.

Posted: **Wed Jun 27, 2018 6:20 am**

Baltenstein wrote:
The Imperial Reach wrote:
Probably not, but the idea that at least most of them are is interesting to me.

How so?

In my personal opinion, it's confusing and hasn't thought its own train of thought through properly.

So there is this big, mysterious inter-species conspiracy that nobody had ever heard before - fair enough - that tries to win the Alpha Legion over by saying that Chaos has to win and rule the galaxy in order to lose.

There are several problems with this:

1.) The notion that letting the Chaos gods win would lead to them devouring humanity and then collapsing into themselves so that non-human sentient life can live happily ever after in a Chaos-free galaxy is one big "?!?" with little to no ground to support it. Why would the fate of the Chaos Gods, whose existence predates humanity's expansion into the stars by a long shot and one of whom was explicitedly created through the actions of another species, be tied to humanity's continued existence? The Chaos Gods will exist as long as feeling and thinking sentient life will exist in the galaxy. The idea that the non-human species could somehow "hide" (where and how, exactly?) and wait until the Chaos Gods die of overfill or something like that seems like a lunatic's gamble.

2.) Even if we take the Cabal's claims on "Chaos victory = Chaos demise" as a given, why is the Alpha Legion, which was rather on the insignificant side as far as Space Marine Legions went, of such crucial importance to their plans that they would approach them when they didn't approach anybody else? It's not as if the Alpha Legion teaming up with Horus made any difference in the end.

3.) By the 41st millenium, the Cabal's "victory scenario" has very obiously not come to pass, what with the Emperor killing Horus and the Imperium entering their long grimdark decay etc. Why then, is the Alpha Legion still doing their whole "we are exactly saving the galaxy by fighting for Chaos" thing?

This whole storyline, along with its central figure, the Cabal, also gets kind of dropped in later books so it remains an unresolved dead end which, in my opinion, should stay that way.

I agree that it does sounds a bit out-there and absurd, but there are some counter-arguments I'd like to make nonetheless.

1.) I believe they were trying to allude to the fact that humans are so easily susceptible to Chaos compared to other races. Though

I would like to refute the notion that the Chaos Gods will always exist so long as sentient life exists because their own actions drastically suggest otherwise. They did, after all, greatly interfere with the Emperor's plans to stop them on several occasions. If they would truly always exist if feeling and thinking life existed in the galaxy, then why would they feel threatened by the Emperor or his plans? Seems rather contradictory. Frankly if they're so outright invincible and incapable of being destroyed then their very existence is just... pointless. Having an enemy you literally cannot beat makes the whole background of the series redundant, as Chaos would inevitably win as every other race has limitations, and more importantly, can die. If the Chaos Gods can't, then eventually their enemies will be depleted of resources and manpower through the constant state of war to the point that the Forces of Chaos overrun them all. Thus, nothing really matters in the grand scheme of things.

2.) It's possible that Alpha Legion is supposed to play an important role, or at least insinuated they will any way, in the victory over Chaos. Their size and significance doesn't really matter in the overall case of circumstance. There is also the possibility that the Cabal are actually working for Chaos instead and simply wanted to turn one of the Emperor's most loyal Legions against him.

3.) Wasn't the long grimdark decay part of the prediction of an Imperial victory? Because if so then technically what they said is coming to pass. Perhaps Alpha Legion believes it isn't too late, and that killing the Emperor could in fact end up saving the Imperium? Horus' death may prevent him from turning against the Chaos Gods and destroying them, but that doesn't mean they can't still be destroyed solely by the Emperor's death. It's a bit a flimsy, I'll admit, but it's not impossible. There is also the possibility that Horus may not even be totally dead, or may even return from the dead. Both have occurred quite frequently in the lore on several occasions.

There's also the fact that Alpha Legion, if they are still loyal, don't really have any other option but outright turning to Chaos even further and forgoing the Emperor entirely at this point. Their brothers will never accept them back into the fold now, they've made their bed and now have to lie in it. There's the possibility the whole thing was a cooked up lie and the Alpha Legion was beaten at their own game, in which case they have nothing left but faith that they're still doing the right thing.

Personally though, I like the argument that since Alpha Legion's primary skill sets included subterfuge, deception, and espionage and that they were supposedly one of the most loyal Space Marine Legions that their betrayal would make more since if it was a lie as it would fit their character best. It would also give reason as to why they didn't retreat into the Eye of Terror.

Posted: **Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:24 pm**

Pitching the idea, what would people think of a Dark Hersey or Rogue Trader based RP?

Posted: **Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:25 pm**

Imperial City-States wrote:Pitching the idea, what would people think of a Dark Hersey or Rogue Trader based RP?

People try it every now and again, but they always die a few pages in. I'd jump at the chance, but I always seem to miss them when they do show up.

Baltenstein wrote:
In my personal opinion, it's confusing and hasn't thought its own train of thought through properly.

So there is this big, mysterious inter-species conspiracy that nobody had ever heard before - fair enough - that tries to win the Alpha Legion over by saying that Chaos has to win and rule the galaxy in order to lose.

There are several problems with this:

1.) The notion that letting the Chaos gods win would lead to them devouring humanity and then collapsing into themselves so that non-human sentient life can live happily ever after in a Chaos-free galaxy is one big "?!?" with little to no ground to support it. Why would the fate of the Chaos Gods, whose existence predates humanity's expansion into the stars by a long shot and one of whom was explicitedly created through the actions of another species, be tied to humanity's continued existence? The Chaos Gods will exist as long as feeling and thinking sentient life will exist in the galaxy. The idea that the non-human species could somehow "hide" (where and how, exactly?) and wait until the Chaos Gods die of overfill or something like that seems like a lunatic's gamble.

2.) Even if we take the Cabal's claims on "Chaos victory = Chaos demise" as a given, why is the Alpha Legion, which was rather on the insignificant side as far as Space Marine Legions went, of such crucial importance to their plans that they would approach them when they didn't approach anybody else? It's not as if the Alpha Legion teaming up with Horus made any difference in the end.

3.) By the 41st millenium, the Cabal's "victory scenario" has very obiously not come to pass, what with the Emperor killing Horus and the Imperium entering their long grimdark decay etc. Why then, is the Alpha Legion still doing their whole "we are exactly saving the galaxy by fighting for Chaos" thing?

This whole storyline, along with its central figure, the Cabal, also gets kind of dropped in later books so it remains an unresolved dead end which, in my opinion, should stay that way.

So the problem here is that you're looking at it just as a plot device when in reality I really do think the Cabal was a business decision. The Cabal created a solid end state for the universe, Chaos has to win for Chaos to lose, but GW can't let that happen or there wouldn't be a game. So now GW has a plot, they can point to the Cabal and say "see, a plot, an ending." and that helps mitigate the folks who gripe about GW never advancing the plot, but they can't advance the plot in that direction because everyone would riot.

It's not actually supposed to happen, get what I mean? It's just supposed to exist so GW can say it exists.

Posted: **Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:41 pm**

Herador wrote:
Imperial City-States wrote:Pitching the idea, what would people think of a Dark Hersey or Rogue Trader based RP?

People try it every now and again, but they always die a few pages in. I'd jump at the chance, but I always seem to miss them when they do show up.

Baltenstein wrote:
In my personal opinion, it's confusing and hasn't thought its own train of thought through properly.

So there is this big, mysterious inter-species conspiracy that nobody had ever heard before - fair enough - that tries to win the Alpha Legion over by saying that Chaos has to win and rule the galaxy in order to lose.

There are several problems with this:

1.) The notion that letting the Chaos gods win would lead to them devouring humanity and then collapsing into themselves so that non-human sentient life can live happily ever after in a Chaos-free galaxy is one big "?!?" with little to no ground to support it. Why would the fate of the Chaos Gods, whose existence predates humanity's expansion into the stars by a long shot and one of whom was explicitedly created through the actions of another species, be tied to humanity's continued existence? The Chaos Gods will exist as long as feeling and thinking sentient life will exist in the galaxy. The idea that the non-human species could somehow "hide" (where and how, exactly?) and wait until the Chaos Gods die of overfill or something like that seems like a lunatic's gamble.

2.) Even if we take the Cabal's claims on "Chaos victory = Chaos demise" as a given, why is the Alpha Legion, which was rather on the insignificant side as far as Space Marine Legions went, of such crucial importance to their plans that they would approach them when they didn't approach anybody else? It's not as if the Alpha Legion teaming up with Horus made any difference in the end.

3.) By the 41st millenium, the Cabal's "victory scenario" has very obiously not come to pass, what with the Emperor killing Horus and the Imperium entering their long grimdark decay etc. Why then, is the Alpha Legion still doing their whole "we are exactly saving the galaxy by fighting for Chaos" thing?

This whole storyline, along with its central figure, the Cabal, also gets kind of dropped in later books so it remains an unresolved dead end which, in my opinion, should stay that way.

So the problem here is that you're looking at it just as a plot device when in reality I really do think the Cabal was a business decision. The Cabal created a solid end state for the universe, Chaos has to win for Chaos to lose, but GW can't let that happen or there wouldn't be a game. So now GW has a plot, they can point to the Cabal and say "see, a plot, an ending." and that helps mitigate the folks who gripe about GW never advancing the plot, but they can't advance the plot in that direction because everyone would riot.

It's not actually supposed to happen, get what I mean? It's just supposed to exist so GW can say it exists.

If they don't want to advance the plot then why does it seem like Roboute Guilliman is about ready to save the whole damn Imperium? Guy's not only been brought back from the dead, but he's been named Lord Commander (again?), allegedly learned "everything [he] needs to" from the Emperor, started several new crusades, and unleashed a new breed of Space Marines. That's not even to mention that it was partly the efforts of an Elder god that brought him back, either. Seems like the calm before a massive storm is brewing.

Unless this is all just fake-hype to increase sales.

Posted: **Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:50 pm**

This might be a diversion from the current topic, but I noticed that Warhammer seems to be drawing in plenty of sci-fi fans that have become disappointed with their former series of choice. That includes myself to some degree. I jumped in a little while after The Force Awakens was released and felt bothered by how unfeeling Star Wars appears now. By contrast, Warhammer 40K is unapologetic and over-the-top, which makes it fun.

Posted: **Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:51 pm**

Northern Davincia wrote:This might be a diversion from the current topic, but I noticed that Warhammer seems to be drawing in plenty of sci-fi fans that have become disappointed with their former series of choice. That includes myself to some degree. I jumped in a little while after The Force Awakens was released and felt bothered by how unfeeling Star Wars appears now. By contrast, Warhammer 40K is unapologetic and over-the-top, which makes it fun.

The forty-first millennium is home to the cynical, the jaded, the callous, and the despairing. Its fans especially show disappointment and cynicism towards the franchise.

Posted: **Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:51 pm**

The Imperial Reach wrote:
Herador wrote:People try it every now and again, but they always die a few pages in. I'd jump at the chance, but I always seem to miss them when they do show up.

So the problem here is that you're looking at it just as a plot device when in reality I really do think the Cabal was a business decision. The Cabal created a solid end state for the universe, Chaos has to win for Chaos to lose, but GW can't let that happen or there wouldn't be a game. So now GW has a plot, they can point to the Cabal and say "see, a plot, an ending." and that helps mitigate the folks who gripe about GW never advancing the plot, but they can't advance the plot in that direction because everyone would riot.

It's not actually supposed to happen, get what I mean? It's just supposed to exist so GW can say it exists.

If they don't want to advance the plot then why does it seem like Roboute Guilliman is about ready to save the whole damn Imperium? Guy's not only been brought back from the dead, but he's been named Lord Commander (again?), allegedly learned "everything [he] needs to" from the Emperor, started several new crusades, and unleashed a new breed of Space Marines. That's not even to mention that it was partly the efforts of an Elder god that brought him back, either. Seems like the calm before a massive storm is brewing.

Unless this is all just fake-hype to increase sales.

So long as it doesn't go all Age Of Sigmar on us, I say storm away.

Posted: **Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:53 pm**

The Empire of Pretantia wrote:
Northern Davincia wrote:This might be a diversion from the current topic, but I noticed that Warhammer seems to be drawing in plenty of sci-fi fans that have become disappointed with their former series of choice. That includes myself to some degree. I jumped in a little while after The Force Awakens was released and felt bothered by how unfeeling Star Wars appears now. By contrast, Warhammer 40K is unapologetic and over-the-top, which makes it fun.

The forty-first millennium is home to the cynical, the jaded, the callous, and the despairing. Its fans especially show disappointment and cynicism towards the franchise.

And I love it for that. :lol2:

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The Warhammer 40.000/Fantasy Discussion Thread Mk.II