Star Treks best Captain.

[Oppressorion]

Incidentally, I would suggest watching SF Debris' League of Starship Captains as part of his DS9 Call to Arms review (starting 3:20), if only to entertain some...entertaining alternate interpretations of the captains.

[Northern Dominus]

...why does Star Trek need two wikis?

I think one's for the show, the other for... everything else.

That's like having one wiki for the Mass Effect games and another one entirely for the books. It maksa no sensa whatsoeva!

... Sisko would punch the idiot who thought that was a good idea and stare rather balefully at them until the two wikis were made into one most likely.

[Conscentia]

[delete], guy below explains it better.

[Oppressorion]

I think one's for the show, the other for... everything else.

That's like having one wiki for the Mass Effect games and another one entirely for the books. It maksa no sensa whatsoeva!

... Sisko would punch the idiot who thought that was a good idea and stare rather balefully at them until the two wikis were made into one most likely.

Alpha is for the TV series', films, and licensed works such as novels. Beta is for unlicensed works, such as Warship Voyager.

[Northern Dominus]

That's like having one wiki for the Mass Effect games and another one entirely for the books. It maksa no sensa whatsoeva!

... Sisko would punch the idiot who thought that was a good idea and stare rather balefully at them until the two wikis were made into one most likely.

Non-show stuff isn't considered canon, thus not mixed with the canon stuff.

Doesn't matter. You don't f**k with the Sisko. Eddingtion found that out the hard way.

[New haven america]

I grew up with TNG, DS9 and VOY, which might be informing the fact that I don't usually pick a favorite captain or series. I think they all have their own merits:

• TOS is good old-school sci-fi, and Kirk is the quintessential old-sci-fi captain, an intermediate step between Buck Rogers and Jean-Luc Picard.
• TNG is good new-school sci-fi; they had to introduce Riker so someone on that ship would still be getting down with the space women, but someone could be making the grand speeches and ballsy diplomatic/tactical maneuvers without the series losing credibility.
• VOY is cinematic as hell, pure and simple. The sci-fi in some episodes is godawful ("Threshold"... /shudder) but face it, Janeway pulled some badass shit out in the Delta Quadrant that Picard would never dream of doing. (Then again, it was frequently in an alternate timeline before the giant reset button was mashed... YMMV.)
• DS9 is straight-up literature. More than just enjoying their exploits, I actually gave a damn about what happened to those people- the only people who fostered that kind of engagement on TNG were Data with his Pinocchio side-quest and (to a more limited extent) Worf (warrior-guy troubles) and Picard (assimilation). I was sadder when DS9 ended than I was for any other series.
• ENT has its value too, I'm sure, be it perhaps only getting a new generation of people interested in Trek. I don't know, I haven't seen all of it yet, but I certainly don't hate it with the foaming intensity some of my fellow Trekkies do.

Enterprise was getting good on it's 4th season, then it got canceled

[Great Empire of Gamilus]

Captain Jean Luc Picard of the U.S.S. Enterprise.

its offical, Picard is best captain... now who is the best no.2?

[Oppressorion]

Captain Jean Luc Picard of the U.S.S. Enterprise.

its offical, Picard is best captain... now who is the best no.2?

Archer is very good at being Picard's number two.


...okay, that's needlessly cruel.

[Post War America]

Picard... he at least knew what military decorum looked like, and acted like decent captain. Top pick for best captain.

Sisko is best person. Second for captain, first for being a cool person.

Archer had potential but lost out due to shitty writing. To think of what could have been saddens me.

Janeway seems like a screw up, but I have admittedly seen little Voyager.

Kirk... ah Kirk Mr. Sex Phaser, decent for his time considering what the 1960s were, but really not that great overall.

[Northern Dominus]

its offical, Picard is best captain... now who is the best no.2?

Archer is very good at being Picard's number two.


...okay, that's needlessly cruel.

And yet Janeway was somehow worse...

[Oppressorion]

Archer is very good at being Picard's number two.


...okay, that's needlessly cruel.

And yet Janeway was somehow worse...

It's hard to top genocide, unless you count the Borg in Endgame I suppose.

[Northern Dominus]

And yet Janeway was somehow worse...

It's hard to top genocide, unless you count the Borg in Endgame I suppose.

What genocide are you talking about exactly? Because if it's that whole race with a genetic disease arc then there really wasn't a "right" answer in that case. So they cure the genetic mutations up to that point, but what happens when that disease suddenly accelerates again and degenerates further? Plus bear in mind that episode was subject to executive meddling by UPN when they wanted total agreeance rather than confronting the moral quandary. Plus let's be honest here that second race that the first one was kicking around would either inevitably rise up and lead to some sort of extinction or be wiped out by the more advanced one that was dying anyway, so what exactly is "right" in this situation?

Janeway meanwhile harbored a backstabbing asshole of an unknown alien after he screwed up a potential pass for them, refused to offer replicators to the Kazon for some high ideal then turned right around and gave that tech to the hirogen after the latter tried to hunt Voyager down, didn't let the borg and 8472 slug it out and take the long way around, and all after making the mistake of getting a top-of-the-line starship stupidly flung into the delta quadrant, and she never beat Paris or Torres with the chain of command before they caused any real damage on top of all of that.

[Oppressorion]

Okay, before I start on this, I'm not the most obsessed with Trek, so I may misremember things. I don't have a DVD boxset, just a television. SF Debris has a 14 minute review of the episode in question, and dedicated an entire essay to the subject. This is a hobby for me, but it's his job - yes, really.

What genocide are you talking about exactly? Because if it's that whole race with a genetic disease arc

Yep.

then there really wasn't a "right" answer in that case. So they cure the genetic mutations up to that point, but what happens when that disease suddenly accelerates again and degenerates further?

Why would the cure only work to the current point? Further, how does this disease work? It's apparently programmed into their genes (which totally breaks evolution), but Phlox gets the cure by studying the immune Menk (race no. 2)...who are a totally unrelated species. So of course they couldn't be affected if they can't interbreed with the Valakians (race no.1), and so they can't develop any immunity, which requires exposure to build up a resistance.

Plus bear in mind that episode was subject to executive meddling by UPN when they wanted total agreeance rather than confronting the moral quandary.

True, that would be less risky than the episode as-is. But risky =/= good. The whole reason a story can be called risky is that there is a chance of failure, which this did. It gambled...and lost.

Plus let's be honest here that second race that the first one was kicking around would either inevitably rise up and lead to some sort of extinction or be wiped out by the more advanced one that was dying anyway, so what exactly is "right" in this situation?

You sure about that? The two races were living together peacefully. The Valakians had lived with the Menk for decades without either killing the other, and if they're dying off then the Mank can just wait them out. If the cure is used, then the Menk can either revolt on their own, or Starfleet can negotiate for civil rights in exchange for trade routes and supplies to help rebuild and the like.

Janeway meanwhile harboured a backstabbing asshole of an unknown alien after he screwed up a potential pass for them,

Eh? Can you give a title for that?

refused to offer replicators to the Kazon for some high ideal then turned right around and gave that tech to the hirogen after the latter tried to hunt Voyager down,

I'm pretty sure that Voyager gave the Hirogen holographic technology, so that they could hunt fake targets without killing anyone. And yeah, this decision comes back to bite her. As for the Kazon - you don't need high ideals to see why giving them more tech would be a bad idea. Not just because they're so stupidly aggressive that they'll immediately go into civil war, but they're so incredibly, deeply stupid (their idea of a prison is a line you're told not to cross), that they may well take their whole damn sector with them.

didn't let the borg and 8472 slug it out and take the long way around,

Voyager was already in Borg space by the time they found out about 8472. Leaving would have meant almost certain destruction by one of them. Look, there are some really, really idiotic decisions Janeway made...

and all after making the mistake of getting a top-of-the-line starship stupidly flung into the delta quadrant,

...like that one, but she didn't choose to let an entire species die.

and she never beat Paris or Torres with the chain of command before they caused any real damage on top of all of that.

Can you source them too? I remember Torres was fighting in engineering, but she got disciplined for that.

[Northern Dominus]

Okay, before I start on this, I'm not the most obsessed with Trek, so I may misremember things. I don't have a DVD boxset, just a television. SF Debris has a 14 minute review of the episode in question, and dedicated an entire essay to the subject. This is a hobby for me, but it's his job - yes, really.

What genocide are you talking about exactly? Because if it's that whole race with a genetic disease arc

Yep.

then there really wasn't a "right" answer in that case. So they cure the genetic mutations up to that point, but what happens when that disease suddenly accelerates again and degenerates further?

Why would the cure only work to the current point? Further, how does this disease work? It's apparently programmed into their genes (which totally breaks evolution), but Phlox gets the cure by studying the immune Menk (race no. 2)...who are a totally unrelated species. So of course they couldn't be affected if they can't interbreed with the Valakians (race no.1), and so they can't develop any immunity, which requires exposure to build up a resistance.

Plus bear in mind that episode was subject to executive meddling by UPN when they wanted total agreeance rather than confronting the moral quandary.

True, that would be less risky than the episode as-is. But risky =/= good. The whole reason a story can be called risky is that there is a chance of failure, which this did. It gambled...and lost.

Plus let's be honest here that second race that the first one was kicking around would either inevitably rise up and lead to some sort of extinction or be wiped out by the more advanced one that was dying anyway, so what exactly is "right" in this situation?

You sure about that? The two races were living together peacefully. The Valakians had lived with the Menk for decades without either killing the other, and if they're dying off then the Mank can just wait them out. If the cure is used, then the Menk can either revolt on their own, or Starfleet can negotiate for civil rights in exchange for trade routes and supplies to help rebuild and the like.

Janeway meanwhile harboured a backstabbing asshole of an unknown alien after he screwed up a potential pass for them,

Eh? Can you give a title for that?

refused to offer replicators to the Kazon for some high ideal then turned right around and gave that tech to the hirogen after the latter tried to hunt Voyager down,

I'm pretty sure that Voyager gave the Hirogen holographic technology, so that they could hunt fake targets without killing anyone. And yeah, this decision comes back to bite her. As for the Kazon - you don't need high ideals to see why giving them more tech would be a bad idea. Not just because they're so stupidly aggressive that they'll immediately go into civil war, but they're so incredibly, deeply stupid (their idea of a prison is a line you're told not to cross), that they may well take their whole damn sector with them.

didn't let the borg and 8472 slug it out and take the long way around,

Voyager was already in Borg space by the time they found out about 8472. Leaving would have meant almost certain destruction by one of them. Look, there are some really, really idiotic decisions Janeway made...

and all after making the mistake of getting a top-of-the-line starship stupidly flung into the delta quadrant,

...like that one, but she didn't choose to let an entire species die.

and she never beat Paris or Torres with the chain of command before they caused any real damage on top of all of that.

Can you source them too? I remember Torres was fighting in engineering, but she got disciplined for that.

Right, so if the first race the Val.... race #1 has a genetic disease that couldn't be cured, and they would probably kill themselves with warp technology in a best-case scenario, and race #2 though more primitive has half a chance of survival, the decision is a bit clearer, not easier but clearer. As most people know genetic conditions aren't the same as any other disease. The problem lies in the very building blocks of a species' DNA, and at the time of Enterprise there seems like it's nowhere near as widespread as it is further on in the timeline. So you have a ship with limited medical supplies and crew fighting off a genetic disease on a planet with less advanced medical resources, not exactly a winning proposition.

As to the notion of species 1 somehow not putting the boot to species 2 in that episode, look at the disparity in how they lived. Species 1 was clearly more advanced (having achieved non-warp spaceflight) while species 2 lived in what can only be described as a "primitive" manner. According to the script the two species have been living side-by-side and fully aware of each other since time immemorial on that planet, yet there's that wide gulf and absolutely no evidence that species 2 has any advanced members or has integrated into the society of species 1 in any way shape or form. There's only one way that happens here on earth; one society makes an advance of some kind and then wields their technological advantage to keep another society down. Colonial Africa and Asia are the prime examples of this. Yeah they might not have been fighting at that point but that planet was headed either for civil war or subjugation of species 2 as slaves.

So what choice did they have really? Stay and try and find a cure for a disease which may or may not have come in time to save a dying species that probably is keeping another native form of sapient life down in some form or another? Sit there and signal starfleet while expending resources? Or accept that there are some things that, try as they might, even the most advanced ship with the best crew can't solve?
And if you're going that route you're going to have to throw Picard in the same boat. He was perfectly willing to let a less advanced race be consumed by the planet that was breaking up around them even though one of their species had made contact with Data ("Pen Pals"). Granted he didn't carry that out completely, but then again the Enterprise-D is a more advanced ship in a more advanced era. Archer didn't have that technology or capability.

As far as the Janeway issues, that backstabbing asshole was Neelix, and he insisted that he bring his little concubine Kes along as well AFTER he blew up a resource which the Kazon needed desperately and the Voyager could provide indefinitely; water. And Kes worked out so well as well...not.
If she were smart about it she'd have subtly hinted to one faction that the other had that technology, and again while they were busy fighting each other Voyager could have gotten through unscathed, again bartering with the resource they could make in abundance and the Kazon could not.

As far as Paris/Torres... that's a personal gripe, both characters were stupidly shallow and annoying that each episode where they weren't getting the crap kicked out of them was a bummer. And yes saying a character on Voyager is shallow is like saying water is wet, but at least the other characters had redeeming qualities. Chakotay could actually throw out a good point here and there, Kim wasn't an annoying little shit, Seven of Nine scissored her legs in a form-fitting catsuit on cue. Tuvok consistently stood in the middle of this malestrom and probably though "How did I wind up here? I could have requested re-assignment to Deep Space Nine to get away from this nonsense." more often than not...

[Alancar]

Picard. Sisko is a close second.

[ShadokuX]

Sisko or Archer, depending on which series I've rewatched most recently.

[TaQud]

Kirk

[Connahkstan]

Sisko is just better, he reminds me of Mal Reynolds from Firefly. Kirk love violating the Prime Directive (Mostly with green alien ladies) and Picard was a wimp who didn't take charge. There was an entire episode of NextGen where Counseler Troi was thinking of leaving her post during an attack and Picard was helping her get through her emotional problems and not commanding his ship while it was under attack. I HATE PICARD! He (Like Boba Fett) never did anything, he was a sorry excuse for a captain. Sisko was a badass.