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Initial Thoughts on Discovery

Love it
45
14%
Like it
80
24%
So-so
92
28%
Dislike it
37
11%
Hate it
79
24%
 
Total votes : 333

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La Paz de Los Ricos
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Postby La Paz de Los Ricos » Fri May 07, 2021 9:53 am

Also, who remembers the first Starship Enterprise? The one before Archer's NX-01 which is so often left undiscussed that most people don't really think about it? The Enterprise XCV-330 which started out as a discarded concept for the original Enterprise? I do, and I've been thinking about it for a while now.

In Into Darkness it makes a little cameo as a model on Admiral Marcus' desk, but what surprised me is its placement in the line of models. The models appear to be lined in chronological order, but notice how the Enterprise XCV-330 comes before the Phoenix. We all know the Phoenix was Earth's first warp ship, so it's sort of surprising that the Enterprise comes before that, no? I mean, from the way the Enterprise is presented in this concept, it seems to indicate she's was intended to be warp-capable, or at least be able to reach the speed of light. Even Memory Alpha admits that the placement of the vessel in Marcus' display indicates in came "somewhere between the 2020s and 2063". Despite other people saying that this vessel is limited to sublight, that honestly makes no sense to me. Though we never get a canon scale comparison of this ship and others in the Trek universe (Marcus' display clearly is not to scale as evidenced by the Phoenix model being comparable in size to the Vengeance model), the forward section of the vessel, as seen in this render has some two small decks in its upper module, which is pretty small compared to even the NX-01. She was also clearly intended to be an interstellar craft, as evidenced by the vessel being a precursor, production-wise, to what became the original 1701 Enterprise.

So, it could be a sleeper ship, right? I mean, Star Trek has been seen to have cryo-tech as early as the 1990s, notably used on the Botany Bay, Khan's escape vessel. We see a glimpse of some stasis pods when the torpedo is opened by Bones and Marcus in Into Darkness, but since those tubes are again seen at the end of film, when Khan and his cohorts are sentenced to be in cryosleep forever, I'm assuming those tubes are native to the 23rd century. This is important because then all we have to go on in terms of cryo-tech is what was seen on Space Seed. The set for the Botany Bay, then, includes large, bulky units mounted on the interior bulkheads. Given that the Botany Bay is windowless, my judgement is that very little of the ship is actually open corridors or rooms, and that most of the ship is dedicated to those cryo-units and propulsion. Now, I imagine that the large modules which are placed on the underside of the Botany Bay's rocket ship is where the stasis units and habitable areas are. Considering the scale shown here between the 1701 Enterprise and the Botany Bay, and knowing that the Enterprise XCV-330 has at least two habitable decks, I would say that, excluding the massive rings, the XCV-330 and the Botany Bay are roughly equivalent in size. Now, of course, there is a lot of time between the Botany Bay's 90s technology and the 2050s (the start of the Third World War), but seeing how 23rd century cryotech evolves from what was seen on the Botany Bay, I'm willing to guess that the XCV-330, if she had had cryo-tech installed in her, would have had similar cryo-systems as seen on the Botany Bay (that is, large, bulky units). Going off of this assumption, the XCV-330, therefore, cannot have any cryo-tubes and is then not a sleeper ship. Her interior is never shown on screen, but again, looking back to our render of her fore module, we see that most of her upper module (the two habitable decks we at least know exist) is, well, open and habitable. I imagine these are work stations or crew bunks. The spherical module in the center is interpreted in other renders is an access and docking port, so I'm inclined to believe that that is its purpose. The lower cylindrical module, I would guess, is then an engineering hull, probably dedicated mostly to the deflector disk's particle accelerated and a small warp reactor. This module is not ideal, then, as a cryo-tech space, since you don't want to have your sleepers getting irradiated by any warp reactor emissions (probably why the lower module is separate in the first place).

So, she's an interstellar vessel, unequipped with cryo-technology to support a crew on a long journey, and she is clearly not equipped to be a generational ship (she is far too small, and by this point in Earth's history, children in spaceflights was probably still a fantasy). So, what's the alternative? She's got to be a warp ship. Not a fast one, maybe not even speed-of-light capable. Just enough to make interstellar travel not a lifelong endeavor. Remember, even though warp 1 is light speed, there are warp speeds below 1 (sublight speeds). The warping of space, to my knowledge, doesn't automatically make something travel at the speed of light. We see in Star Trek: Enterprise and The Motion Picture that ships before the late 23rd century apparently need to accelerate into warp (which goes into my idea that transwarp was apparently successful after the Search for Spock and used by Starfleet regularly but that's something else), climbing in velocity until reaching their desired warp speed. As another point, if she were an interstellar generational ship, and if it is known she launched before the Third World War, then she most certainly would not have been affected by the nuclear conflict on Earth. I mean, what are they gonna do, launch a nuke at the ship? While it is already traveling through space, maybe out of the Solar System depending on her launch date? Yeah, good luck with that.

Now, if all this was the case, she would have been mentioned during the early Starfleet years. I mean, remember the Great Experiment? No, not the Excelsior, Terra Nova! Allegedly Earth's first interstellar mission, having started just after first contact (which already rules out the possibility of XCV-330 having left the Solar System, because then she would be known as Earth's first interstellar mission), Terra Nova, more specifically the SS Conestoga, the warp ship which brought them there, had to be rediscovered by the crew of the Enterprise after the colony isolated itself from the rest of Humanity. Considering XCV-330 Enterprise is never mentioned, to my knowledge, as having founded any sort of interstellar colony, or even having broken any interstellar manned mission records, then it seems odd she would be so rarely brought up if she were such a significant figure in spaceflight history. Hell, she's only tangentially referenced by background easter eggs in Trek, and the only time she is directly mentioned would be when Decker is speaking to the Ilia-replica in The Motion Picture, and even then he doesn't mention her singularly! Only something to the effect of "all those ships were called 'Enterprise'". So, why then?

So, basically, I believe that, to be an interstellar vessel, and without the use of cryo-technology or being designed to support a multi-generational crew, Enterprise XCV-330 had to have been a warp vessel. The Vulcans have been seen in Star Trek: Enterprise using similar "warp rings", and so I would imagine the purpose of those large rings on the little Enterprise are to serve as massive warp coils, basically as crude warp engines. They are separated from the habitable module, implying that, as the intent was with separating the nacelles of the original 1701 Enterprise, they are radioactive or somehow dangerous to life at close proximity. So, they hang to the back of the ship, just as warp nacelles would on future Starfleet ships.

So, what now? Well, we've established XCV-330's possible temporal range (anywhere from the early 2000s to the 2050s, at which point nuclear war would have made space travel an impossibility until first contact), and we know she had to have been equipped with some early, crude warp drive to have been feasible, and we know she is so rarely mentioned in Trek continuing, and we know that the Phoenix was Earth's first successful warp flight (read: NOT just light-speed flight, WARP flight; this includes any sublight warp as we've speculated Enterprise XCV-330 was capable of). If the Phoenix holds the title for first successful warp flight, then something must have happened to Enterprise XCV-330. I mean, she can't even have activated her warp drive, because then the Phoenix's reactor would be mentioned as taking second fiddle to the warp engine aboard the Enterprise. Hell, for all of First Contact, she's never mentioned! Not once, as far as I know! So... what then?

Let's go back to the Third World War. Why did the war start? Initially, the issue was over "genetic manipulation", as Memory Alpha states. This is backed up by Q's confrontation of Picard in the Farpoint Encounter, where he mentions that soldiers were augmented through the use of narcotics, so drug use and general manipulation of the human body and perception was involved. The war ostensibly started in the late 2020s (can't wait to see that happen), at which point traditional combat was used ("traditional" in this case meaning anything not involving weapons of mass-destruction, like, oh, say... nuclear weapons). At some point, later in the course of the war, came a nuclear cataclysm which decimated most governments of the world and sent humanity into a second dark age. Considering Riker mentions in First Contact that 2063 and the warp flight is only "just after" most governments were destroyed, AKA nuclear obliteration, my guess would be that nukes started flying in the 2050s, and likely lasted a few years. In 2053, Star Trek: Discovery shows us a nuclear strike in Indiana which supports my case: nuclear cataclysm occurred in the 2050s.

So what, then, World War III lasted for thirty years and nuclear cataclysm didn't occur sooner? Uh, okay... sure... So we've got an association here. During the course of the Third World War, Enterprise XCV-330 had to have been constructed, but before nuclear war broke out, at which point all space programs would have collapsed along with the world's states.

So, I've got a theory: the Enterprise XCV-330 was the direct cause of the nuclear war in World War Three.

Ignoring any beta canon which supports or refutes my claim, here's what I believe: the Third World War is sparked in the 2020s over the issue of genetic engineering and bodily manipulation through narcotics, issues which had likely been lingering since the Eugenics Wars in the 1990s and the "disappearance" of Khan Singh. War breaks out, but though nuclear weapons are threatened to be used, nuclear catastrophe is postponed. Fighting takes place as governments drug their soldiers and equip them with technology and genetic engineering which makes them the most formidable fighters seen in Earth's history. This takes place over the late 2020s and over much of the 2030s, until a ceasefire is called (read: a ceasefire, NOT a treaty. The war goes on, but fighting subsides). Why?

A young genius by the name of Zefram Cochrane has made a breakthrough discovery: a feasible warp drive. This is incredible. Science fiction has become reality, and governments scramble to Cochrane's new computations. This will work. This isn't theory or speculation, this is reality. The space agencies of the world form a truce, and the United Earth Space Probe Agency (or at least a predecessor of it) is born.

With the young Cochrane's plans showing promise, the UESPA sets to designing and building a prototype for an interstellar vessel; simulations show promise, and the calculations and design stand up to scrutiny. With the Enterprise already under construction, the people of Earth hope her completion to be the end of the war. Humanity could take its place among the stars as the petty squabbles of Earth territory are now made irrelevant.

For a while, the fighting stops. Tensions are alarmingly high, still, but less and less people are killed every day. The governments of Earth, seeing the Enterprise under construction, and at the urging of Zefram Cochrane, begin tentative peace talks. This is it, hopes the human race, the war may be over. Peace talks go well, for the most part, but some holdouts refuse to take part; not yet, they insist, this engine has to work first. They are willing to stop troop movements and avoid confrontation, but a treaty? Not yet.

With the weight of the world on his shoulders, Cochrane and his team spend the next decade building the Enterprise. Every millimeter, every weld point, every rivet and screw, every hull plate, every molecule of this ship is scrutinized and tested. The Enterprise has one shot to prove warp works. If she fails, Zefram fears, the world will go mad. He and the UESPA have to uphold the biggest promise made by any human beings in history. To compensate for the stress and anxiety he faces, Cochrane takes up drinking. Just a bit, at first, enough to dull his senses after work and deal with the fate of the human race in his hands, but the habit starts to build. Inconspicuously, but it builds.

It is now the turn of the 2050s. Warring parties are getting antsy; attacks and border skirmishes are starting to grow more frequent and violent, and with the peace starting to strain, Enterprise must launch now. The team of astronauts to man Enterprise has already been selected, Cochrane not among them. No, he'll be maintaining watch at Ground Control, seeing his creation succeed first-hand, he prays. Enterprise is prepped, her warp systems examined, her crew say their triumphant goodbyes and board the Enterprise. The launch is broadcast live worldwide, and billions of people watch with baited breath as the Enterprise nears the coordinates where she will activate her warp drive and, God willing, fly into the stars, and take the human race along with her. This was an international effort, and everyone can only pray that it pays off.

The Enterprise powers her warp drive. The tests have all gone well, she has already been proclaimed the saving ark of humanity. Cochrane and the world wait nervously, hopefully, as the Enterprise activates her warp drive...

...and it fails.

Catastrophically. The Enterprise is consumed in a flash, her onboard cameras immediately cut out, voice transmissions are blank, and... she's gone. The Enterprise has been destroyed. The failure had to have been her warp drive. A warp reactor breach, maybe. All other systems had been confirmed as functional and had worked fine during the initial flight. Earth is immediately chaos. Warring factions pin blame on each other, suggesting sabotage as having been the cause for the death of the Enterprise. Tensions already hot, now flaring, a nuclear weapon is fired. Just one, but one is enough to bring another into the sky, and another, and others and soon the planet Earth is blanketed by nuclear mushroom clouds as the nuclear war begins.

Cochrane, by some miracle, escapes the carnage, and hides out in the forests just outside the irradiated ruins of Bozeman, Montana. He is in ruins, himself. Now he not only has to contend with the death of the Enterprise, the failure of his engine which he could not explain, and the loss of her valiant crew, but also, potentially, the dooming of the entire human civilization. He knows that the war is not the end; even with all of the charring and scarring as a direct result, those who survive will have no infrastructure, no internet, nothing but the clothes on their backs and a healthy dose of cancer. With all of these issues weighing on him, the young Cochrane drowns his sorrows and becomes a severe alcoholic, just as we see in First Contact.

That's, of course, not the end. He is paying for his mistakes, and by some misguided martyr complex, Cochrane vows to try again. There are others alive, like Lily, who, in the back of their minds, still believe in the cause, and know the failure wasn't his. If he wants to try again, in this wrecked, ruined Earth, why should they not lend a hand? Better than "surviving", rotting away in a remote camp away from the millions of dead, scorched corpses lining the once-great cities of Earth. With this in mind, someone suggests a name for this new project: "Phoenix". It's a small gesture, but enough to inspire hope. With this new project, they will bring mankind out of the ashes of the old world and take them to the stars.

Of course, Cochrane redesigns the warp engine. Rings will not work, he mutters quietly, we should try symmetrical nacelles. Besides, there isn't enough material left in their reach to build a ring coil, anyways. And so, the Phoenix is built, from the hollowed out corpse of a Titan missile, the very same as those which delivered nuclear catastrophe across the rest of the world. So, Enterprise led to the death of millions, but Cochrane will clear his name, and her name, too, and with Phoenix, he will make amends.

In short, I believe that the Enterprise XCV-330 directly led to the nuclear war of the 2050s.

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Stellar Colonies
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Postby Stellar Colonies » Sun May 16, 2021 4:27 pm

I'm fairly sure something like this has already been hypothesized here, but I'll spin this out regardless.
In Enterprise, Daniels clearly and explicitly told Archer that "history never recorded the Xindi attack", so at least half of that series takes place in a timeline which is probably alternate from the Prime timeline in TOS-TNG-DS9-VOY, which I'll just call the Xindi Attack timeline.

(This goes out the window if the Prime timeline is the Xindi Attack timeline, which is possible (meaning that we would've never seen the original Trek timeline after the 22nd century))

They mention the Xindi war in Beyond, so the Kelvinverse clearly split off from the Xindi Attack timeline. I haven't watched Discovery because I don't have access to it, but if it references something regarding the Xindi (possibly Temporal Cold War too), then it is in the Xindi Attack timeline as well.

If the Prime and Xindi Attack timelines are different, it would neatly explain the tonal and visual differences between TOS in the 2260s and pre-split USS Kelvin in 2233 / DSC in the 2250s.

---

So putting this all together, in my personal opinion:

Prime Timeline

Possibly the first half of ENT (or none of it), TOS, TNG, DS9, VGR, LDS, PIC

*All the time travel shenanigans in TOS, TNG, DS9, and VGR make this a small stack of timelines which I'm sticking together

First Contact Time Loop
*Bozeman is carpet-bombed by the Borg with some damage and injuries, probably deaths
*Borg debris left at the North Pole for ENT to deal with in Regeneration
* Enterprise-E crew is involved with the first warp flight
*NX-01 inspired by Cochrane's observations of the Enterprise-E in terms of both design and name

ENT creates an explanation for why the Borg is encroaching on the Federation in the 24th century and the Klingons having a different appearance in TOS, so First Contact could simply be some kind of pre-destination loop, making it effectively the same as the Prime timeline


|
V

Xindi Attack Timeline
The latter half of ENT (possibly all of it), DSC

*Temporal Cold War-related shenanigans (the TCW was possibly erased in Stormfront, but I think Daniels was referring to the hot war which "started" in Stormfront) result in the Xindi War, an event which Daniels said was not part of his history. Assuming that his history was the Prime timeline, that means at least half of ENT is in a different timeline, and all of it from the very first episode if the Temporal Cold War can be considered to be what split this timeline off from the Prime timeline.
*Changes induced by the Xindi War and TCW result in the USS Kelvin having an appearance more similar to the USS Discovery in DSC than would be expected in the 2230s even before the timeline was split by Nero (that window viewscreen for instance)
*Changes induced by the Xindi War and TCW result in the event/visual/tonal discrepancies between DSC and TOS (only ten years separate the two), ranging from the different design of the USS Enterprise to Section 31 apparently being common knowledge
*This alternate timeline probably skewed through Q's extradimensional fungal garden, explaining...uh...that stuff

If LDS or PIC mention anything regarding the Xindi War or DSC, this would imply that this is the same timeline as the Prime Timeline.


|
V

Kelvinverse Timeline
Star Trek: Star Trek, Star Trek: Into Darkness, Star Trek: Beyond

*Kirk was born in space prematurely, has a stepfather with a Nokia-equipped car (impressive feat of PP, Abrams)
*Massive changes in technology and design such as less effective shields (maybe), more effective warp drive, Apple Store aesthetic for Federation ships, different phasers (spittle wads instead of beams)
*Nero destroys multiple Klingon and Federation starships, damages the USS Enterprise, destroys Vulcan, inflicts some damage on Earth
*Transwarp beaming introduced prematurely by Spock
*Section 31 is apparently different, involved in developing and constructing the USS Vengeance
*Khan is recovered prematurely, Pike is killed by him, damages the USS Enterprise, inflicts a certain amount of damage via both a bombing and driving a giant starship through San Francisco
* USS Enterprise destroyed prematurely by Krall (I wonder how that situation with the guy turned out in the Prime and Xindi Attack timelines) and Yorktown damaged (assuming it existed in the Prime and Xindi Attack timelines)
*Different starship designated the Enterprise-A (maybe)


Each are parallel to each other, possibly each with their own Alternate Universe
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New haven america
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Postby New haven america » Sun May 16, 2021 5:31 pm

Why are you spoilering a series that's 20 years old?

And yes, both the Prime and Kelvin Timelines are the ones where the Xindi attacked Earth. Daniels is the one who comes from a different one.
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Vassenor
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Postby Vassenor » Mon May 17, 2021 1:22 am

New haven america wrote:Why are you spoilering a series that's 20 years old?

And yes, both the Prime and Kelvin Timelines are the ones where the Xindi attacked Earth. Daniels is the one who comes from a different one.


Pretty sure the spoilering is just to keep it out of the way for people who don't want to read it since it's a big-ass wall of text.
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Myrensis
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Postby Myrensis » Tue May 18, 2021 11:23 pm

Starblaydia wrote:
New haven america wrote:Discovery has had it's moments in the first couple of seasons, but Red Angel reveal and the subsequent season have turned me right off it. I'll certainly check out Season 4, but not with any great urgency. Picard, however, was largely a disaster from start to finish and I watched it out of a morbid curiosity as to how it got made and where they were actually going with it.


The answers being 'on a whim' and 'they had no idea because they were making it up as they went along'.

I kind of lol'd at this interview with the producer, who talking about Season 2 said that the biggest lesson they learned from Season 1 is that they needed to actually know what the story was before they started filming this time, and also casually reveals that 'Picard' was originally supposed to be a Short Trek with a young Picard, and then Kurtzmann just decided to throw some money at Patrick Stewart and see what happened.

Stewart of course agreed to come back only on the condition that they bitch about Brexit, hence the Federation being dragged through the mud, and the septic tank just kept rolling from there.

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Postby Vassenor » Wed May 19, 2021 12:17 am

Myrensis wrote:

Stewart of course agreed to come back only on the condition that they bitch about Brexit, hence the Federation being dragged through the mud, and the septic tank just kept rolling from there.



First I've heard about that.
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Postby New haven america » Wed May 19, 2021 1:01 am

Vassenor wrote:
Myrensis wrote:

Stewart of course agreed to come back only on the condition that they bitch about Brexit, hence the Federation being dragged through the mud, and the septic tank just kept rolling from there.



First I've heard about that.

Literally the first page of Google.

And there's more than just that too.
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Twilight Imperium
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Postby Twilight Imperium » Wed May 19, 2021 1:12 am

New haven america wrote:Stewart of course agreed to come back only on the condition that they bitch about Brexit, hence the Federation being dragged through the mud, and the septic tank just kept rolling from there.


Well, that sure is a way to read those articles. Have you tried reading them without the rage-goggles? I know backing down from internet nerd anger can be hard, but I believe in you!!
Last edited by Twilight Imperium on Wed May 19, 2021 1:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Juristonia » Wed May 19, 2021 2:37 am

New haven america wrote:
Vassenor wrote:

First I've heard about that.

Literally the first page of Google.

And there's more than just that too.

And now the full interview that that was based on, which, as usual, is far more nuanced.
https://variety.com/2020/tv/features/pa ... 203459573/

“I think what we’re trying to say is important,” he says. “The world of ‘Next Generation’ doesn’t exist anymore. It’s different. Nothing is really safe. Nothing is really secure.”

“In a way, the world of ‘Next Generation’ had been too perfect and too protected,” he says. “It was the Enterprise. It was a safe world of respect and communication and care and, sometimes, fun.” In “Picard,” the Federation — a union of planets bonded by shared democratic values — has taken an isolationist turn. The new show, Stewart says, “was me responding to the world of Brexit and Trump and feeling, ‘Why hasn’t the Federation changed? Why hasn’t Starfleet changed?’ Maybe they’re not as reliable and trustworthy as we all thought.”

Not wanting to retread the same thing that was already done, because the world is in a different place now and wanting the show to reflect that is a little bit more reasonable than claiming he only wanted to come back if he got to whine about brexit.

But the hate train will continue.
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Postby Vassenor » Wed May 19, 2021 6:54 am

Twilight Imperium wrote:
New haven america wrote:Stewart of course agreed to come back only on the condition that they bitch about Brexit, hence the Federation being dragged through the mud, and the septic tank just kept rolling from there.


Well, that sure is a way to read those articles. Have you tried reading them without the rage-goggles? I know backing down from internet nerd anger can be hard, but I believe in you!!


You're forgetting that there is to be no political messaging in the show. Just ignore all the episodes with implicit or explicit political messages.
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Myrensis
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Postby Myrensis » Wed May 19, 2021 12:29 pm

Twilight Imperium wrote:
New haven america wrote:Stewart of course agreed to come back only on the condition that they bitch about Brexit, hence the Federation being dragged through the mud, and the septic tank just kept rolling from there.


Well, that sure is a way to read those articles. Have you tried reading them without the rage-goggles? I know backing down from internet nerd anger can be hard, but I believe in you!!


The new show, Stewart says, “was me responding to the world of Brexit and Trump and feeling, ‘Why hasn’t the Federation changed? Why hasn’t Starfleet changed?’ Maybe they’re not as reliable and trustworthy as we all thought.”


I mean, I was under the impression that the direct quotes from the people involved was the usual way to read an article.

The whole 'hopeful future' thing was a deliberate choice for Star Trek, not a consequence of the real world being a perfect utopia until Trump and Brexit ruined it.

Vassenor wrote:
Twilight Imperium wrote:
Well, that sure is a way to read those articles. Have you tried reading them without the rage-goggles? I know backing down from internet nerd anger can be hard, but I believe in you!!


You're forgetting that there is to be no political messaging in the show. Just ignore all the episodes with implicit or explicit political messages.


Yes, but the whole thing with political messaging in Star Trek was highlighting how flawed and backward those things were from the perspective of a humanity that got it's shit together and created a better future, while Picard opted for the "Humanity will always suck, the future will always be shit, all the 2 or 3 decent people in the universe can do is try to muddle through." route.

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The Huskar Social Union
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Postby The Huskar Social Union » Wed May 19, 2021 12:34 pm

You all just need to have a little faith of the heart
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Postby Tarsonis » Wed May 19, 2021 12:56 pm

The Huskar Social Union wrote:You all just need to have a little faith of the heart


of the heart?
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby The Huskar Social Union » Wed May 19, 2021 1:00 pm

Tarsonis wrote:
The Huskar Social Union wrote:You all just need to have a little faith of the heart


of the heart?
Maybe

Image
Last edited by The Huskar Social Union on Wed May 19, 2021 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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New haven america
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Founded: Oct 08, 2012
Left-Leaning College State

Postby New haven america » Wed May 19, 2021 2:46 pm

Vassenor wrote:
Twilight Imperium wrote:
Well, that sure is a way to read those articles. Have you tried reading them without the rage-goggles? I know backing down from internet nerd anger can be hard, but I believe in you!!


You're forgetting that there is to be no political messaging in the show. Just ignore all the episodes with implicit or explicit political messages.

And that's where you're wrong!

STP tries to be political and claims to support diplomacy, the rights of others, fights against racism/xenophobia, etc...

But the issue is that it's written by Kurtzman and Goldsman, so it ends up horseshoeing itself and instead supports ideas like: Violence and force is the answer to everything, racism and xenophobia is ok, etc...

It's actually a very right wing show all things considered. I didn't expect you to be one to support such right wing ideals, but eh, support can change it seems.
Last edited by New haven america on Thu May 20, 2021 4:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Stellar Colonies
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Founded: Mar 27, 2017
New York Times Democracy

Postby Stellar Colonies » Wed May 19, 2021 2:49 pm

The Federation becoming more withdrawn and suspicious makes sense in a post-Dominion War galaxy, although I'm not sure how much Picard pinned it on that as opposed to that single attack on Mars.
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Opinions and Puppets
If you want a mental image of me: straight(?) white male.

I try to be objective, but I do have some biases.

I don't think the political compass is
fully accurate, but here are my results:

X-Axis: -5.38
Y-Axis: -2.62

Also, I'm diagnosed as a high-functioning autistic.
Stellar Colonies is a loose confederacy comprised from most of the human-settled parts of the galaxy.

Ida Station is the only Confederate member state permitted to join the WA.

Add 1200 years for the date I use.

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Twilight Imperium
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Founded: May 19, 2013
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Twilight Imperium » Wed May 19, 2021 4:01 pm

Tarsonis wrote:
The Huskar Social Union wrote:You all just need to have a little faith of the heart


of the heart?


never gonna bend or break meeee

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Stellar Colonies
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Founded: Mar 27, 2017
New York Times Democracy

Postby Stellar Colonies » Thu May 20, 2021 3:22 pm

So I just saw Retrospect from VGR again, been doing a partial rewatch of the series recently.

The lesson I got from the episode when I first viewed it in middle school was essentially something like "blind trust in your friends can bias you in their favor even if they are mistaken" and completely missed any allusions to sexual assault allegations (if those were intentional as the central element at the time of the episode, it seemed to focus a lot on the "accuracy of repressed memory" aspect from what I can see of the episode and the Wiki page regarding it). Since my first watchthrough, I've mostly tended to assume he was innocent and that his extreme actions at the end were out of reactive desperation due to him perceiving enemies on all sides refusing to hear him out, which is how it seems to be intended in the episode (may or may not be open-ended though).

Looking at it today, I still see an echo of that childhood interpretation, although of course through the filter of seeing it as an analogy to a false (mistaken) sexual assault accusation because of me...well...knowing about all that now and the arguments centered around #MeToo, which is likely something which a lot of people would have in mind when watching the episode today.

So, was wondering about other's thoughts regarding it.
Native of The East Pacific and Northern California
Opinions and Puppets
If you want a mental image of me: straight(?) white male.

I try to be objective, but I do have some biases.

I don't think the political compass is
fully accurate, but here are my results:

X-Axis: -5.38
Y-Axis: -2.62

Also, I'm diagnosed as a high-functioning autistic.
Stellar Colonies is a loose confederacy comprised from most of the human-settled parts of the galaxy.

Ida Station is the only Confederate member state permitted to join the WA.

Add 1200 years for the date I use.

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Hurdergaryp
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Founded: Jul 10, 2016
Democratic Socialists

Postby Hurdergaryp » Fri May 21, 2021 12:45 pm

Image


“Everything under heaven is in utter chaos; the situation is excellent.”
Mao Zedong

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Myrensis
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Founded: Oct 05, 2010
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Myrensis » Sun May 23, 2021 2:11 am

Hurdergaryp wrote:


I feel kind of bad for Riker, I like the character, but he probably should have left after Best of Both Worlds. It's a little awkward to make it a plot point in the show that hanging around on the same ship and passing up command opportunities is damaging his career and reaching the point that he's going to be passed over for more ambitious and driven officers...and then he stays on the Enterprise for another 20 years. :p

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Hurdergaryp
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Posts: 42931
Founded: Jul 10, 2016
Democratic Socialists

Postby Hurdergaryp » Sun May 23, 2021 3:45 pm

Myrensis wrote:
Hurdergaryp wrote:

I feel kind of bad for Riker, I like the character, but he probably should have left after Best of Both Worlds. It's a little awkward to make it a plot point in the show that hanging around on the same ship and passing up command opportunities is damaging his career and reaching the point that he's going to be passed over for more ambitious and driven officers...and then he stays on the Enterprise for another 20 years. :p

It's the Riker way. Riker is as Riker does.


“Everything under heaven is in utter chaos; the situation is excellent.”
Mao Zedong

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Ameriganastan
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Founded: Jul 01, 2008
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Ameriganastan » Sun May 23, 2021 3:47 pm

Myrensis wrote:
Hurdergaryp wrote:


I feel kind of bad for Riker, I like the character, but he probably should have left after Best of Both Worlds. It's a little awkward to make it a plot point in the show that hanging around on the same ship and passing up command opportunities is damaging his career and reaching the point that he's going to be passed over for more ambitious and driven officers...and then he stays on the Enterprise for another 20 years. :p

I mean, I don't blame him. Serve as #2 on the flagship of the Federation with the best captain in the service, or take command of some lesser ship on a nowhere assignment. I know what I'd do.
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Tarsonis
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Founded: Sep 20, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby Tarsonis » Sun May 23, 2021 5:05 pm

Myrensis wrote:
Hurdergaryp wrote:


I feel kind of bad for Riker, I like the character, but he probably should have left after Best of Both Worlds. It's a little awkward to make it a plot point in the show that hanging around on the same ship and passing up command opportunities is damaging his career and reaching the point that he's going to be passed over for more ambitious and driven officers...and then he stays on the Enterprise for another 20 years. :p


And now he's captain of the Titan. Warp factor 5 6 7 8
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Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
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Stellar Colonies
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Founded: Mar 27, 2017
New York Times Democracy

Postby Stellar Colonies » Sun May 23, 2021 5:30 pm

Neelix: [Benkarans] occupy just 10 percent of Nygean space, but take up nearly 80 percent of the space in Nygean prisons.

Paris: Maybe they commit more crimes.


And by the end of the episode, the Benkaran that Neelix is determined to rehabilitate is revealed to be a true criminal after all.
Last edited by Stellar Colonies on Sun May 23, 2021 5:34 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Native of The East Pacific and Northern California
Opinions and Puppets
If you want a mental image of me: straight(?) white male.

I try to be objective, but I do have some biases.

I don't think the political compass is
fully accurate, but here are my results:

X-Axis: -5.38
Y-Axis: -2.62

Also, I'm diagnosed as a high-functioning autistic.
Stellar Colonies is a loose confederacy comprised from most of the human-settled parts of the galaxy.

Ida Station is the only Confederate member state permitted to join the WA.

Add 1200 years for the date I use.

User avatar
Tarsonis
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 21747
Founded: Sep 20, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby Tarsonis » Sun Jun 27, 2021 4:49 pm

just watched realm of fear and I just came to say I love Barclay.


Also Q confirmed as main antagonist of Picard season 2, so that's awesome.
NS Keyboard Warrior since 2005
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

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