Scifi TV Discussion Thread

[New haven america]

1. Then why are the Klingons and Romulans banned from experimenting with it? And yes, there are cyberneticists and AI specialists in the RSE, as can be seen in the one of the best TNG episodes ever, The Deserter.
2. No, that's too boring and niche for modern audiences.

1. I don't think that it was an international treety so much as each nation passed their own version of the law.

2. I dunno, went over great in the SW franchise

1. No, the RSE makes in clear in STP that synthetic organisms are banned there. And they didn't do it to curry favor with the Federation because the Federation ain't doing jackshit to help them because of the racist xenophobes that apparently run the place now.
2. No one other than hardcore SW fans have watched TCW.

[Tarsonis]

1. I don't think that it was an international treety so much as each nation passed their own version of the law.

2. I dunno, went over great in the SW franchise

1. No, the RSE makes in clear in STP that synthetic organisms are banned there. And they didn't do it to curry favor with the Federation because the Federation ain't doing jackshit to help them because of the racist xenophobes that apparently run the place now. [/qiote]

Yes, the RSE had its own reasons for banning it. Two nations can have the same law for different reasons and without signing a treaty over it.

2. No one other than hardcore SW fans have watched TCW.

And it's arguably one of their more popular titles. So you know what to do, get write a pitch and see if anyone at viacom likes the idea.

[Tarsonis]

That they have a strict hedgemonic system at all:

The Admiralty
The Captain.
The XO
The Senior Officers
The Crew


Strict code of customs and courtesies, discipline, absolute command structure, Duty rotations, duty post, battle stations, etc etc etc. It's not a commercial cruise liner out there, it's completely run like a military vessel.


Just as it was in TOS, TNG, DS9, Voyager, etc.

The only difference between star fleet and the military, honestly, is that they say they aren't military.

Or the fact that, again, their main goal is exploration and diplomacy while the military's main goal is defense.

And the Military explores while Starfleet engages in defence. You're trying to draw the thinnest of distinctions here.

Ok, ok, let's make a comparison. In Star Trek, a show with a cast that's not part of the military, generally in a situation where a species presents itself as hostile the captain of the Starfleet ship will try to either diplomatically sooth things over or take the head of the hostile power and avoid them until a later date. Now, in Stargate, a show with a cast that is mostly in the military, their first line of action is to always assume everything is hostile until it's dead and if a species presents hostility then the first action taken would be to present defensive measures first and diplomacy later.

You're comparing two fictional depictions and not that well.

Firstly, a Naval captain has to do exactly what the starfleet captain would do. Take recent harassment of US ships Iranian patrol craft. They did not fire, they employed every diplomatic solution first, and the Iranians left before it ever got to force. They're under the same constraints the starfleet captain is, knowing giving the order to fire likely means war. The only difference is we don't have any "unknown" players. We know all the countries with ships and what to do with that information. Theres no first contacts to be made.

Jack O'Neill would be arrested and court marshalled for gross incompetence if he was a Starfleet Captain because of how he acts on a episode by episode basis in SG-1.

Jack O'Neil is also Special Forces which is a Niche role within the larger military framework. His specific principle function within the frame work is combat. He doesnt operate the same way as a naval captain does.



Again, you're trying to draw the smallest of distinctions and even that doesnt work.

The definition of military is: of or relating to armed forces"

Starfleet is the armed forces of the Federation. They fight the wars. They're the military.

[New haven america]

Or the fact that, again, their main goal is exploration and diplomacy while the military's main goal is defense.

1. And the Military explores while Starfleet engages in defence. You're trying to draw the thinnest of distinctions here.

Ok, ok, let's make a comparison. In Star Trek, a show with a cast that's not part of the military, generally in a situation where a species presents itself as hostile the captain of the Starfleet ship will try to either diplomatically sooth things over or take the head of the hostile power and avoid them until a later date. Now, in Stargate, a show with a cast that is mostly in the military, their first line of action is to always assume everything is hostile until it's dead and if a species presents hostility then the first action taken would be to present defensive measures first and diplomacy later.

2. You're comparing two fictional depictions and not that well.

Firstly, a Naval captain has to do exactly what the starfleet captain would do. Take recent harassment of US ships Iranian patrol craft. They did not fire, they employed every diplomatic solution first, and the Iranians left before it ever got to force. They're under the same constraints the starfleet captain is, knowing giving the order to fire likely means war. The only difference is we don't have any "unknown" players. We know all the countries with ships and what to do with that information. Theres no first contacts to be made.

Jack O'Neill would be arrested and court marshalled for gross incompetence if he was a Starfleet Captain because of how he acts on a episode by episode basis in SG-1.

3. Jack O'Neil is also Special Forces which is a Niche role within the larger military framework. His specific principle function within the frame work is combat. He doesnt operate the same way as a naval captain does.



Again, you're trying to draw the smallest of distinctions and even that doesnt work.

The definition of military is: of or relating to armed forces"

4. Starfleet is the armed forces of the Federation. They're the military.

1. No, I'm making an obvious distinction that everyone else here apparently has no trouble seeing.
2. Not at all. You keep saying Starfleet is a military, then I'm going to keep listing off actual military action in other fiction.
3. And that does absolutely nothing to change my point considering he's only 1 drop in the ocean of sci-fi military behavior. In The Expanse for example the first go to response to any act of hostility between the 3 navies is combat first and foremost with diplomacy later. Same thing with Mass Effect. Or BSG 04, or would you like me to continue?
4. Except they're not, they're an exploratory service.

[Crysuko]

Or the fact that, again, their main goal is exploration and diplomacy while the military's main goal is defense.

And the Military explores while Starfleet engages in defence. You're trying to draw the thinnest of distinctions here.

Ok, ok, let's make a comparison. In Star Trek, a show with a cast that's not part of the military, generally in a situation where a species presents itself as hostile the captain of the Starfleet ship will try to either diplomatically sooth things over or take the head of the hostile power and avoid them until a later date. Now, in Stargate, a show with a cast that is mostly in the military, their first line of action is to always assume everything is hostile until it's dead and if a species presents hostility then the first action taken would be to present defensive measures first and diplomacy later.

You're comparing two fictional depictions and not that well.

Firstly, a Naval captain has to do exactly what the starfleet captain would do. Take recent harassment of US ships Iranian patrol craft. They did not fire, they employed every diplomatic solution first, and the Iranians left before it ever got to force. They're under the same constraints the starfleet captain is, knowing giving the order to fire likely means war. The only difference is we don't have any "unknown" players. We know all the countries with ships and what to do with that information. Theres no first contacts to be made.

Jack O'Neill would be arrested and court marshalled for gross incompetence if he was a Starfleet Captain because of how he acts on a episode by episode basis in SG-1.

Jack O'Neil is also Special Forces which is a Niche role within the larger military framework. His specific principle function within the frame work is combat. He doesnt operate the same way as a naval captain does.



Again, you're trying to draw the smallest of distinctions and even that doesnt work.

The definition of military is: of or relating to armed forces"

Starfleet is the armed forces of the Federation. They're the military.

Why are you ignoring how civilian they are. Why many of their ships carry civvies, Picards enterprise had a school and a barber for christs sake. DS9 wasn't exactly a military base, and in that very series it's outright stated that SF only begrudgingly made the defiant class in the face of the Borg threat, and only started making combat ships in earnest once the dominion war started, and presumably stopped immediately thereafter. You're clearly military minded and are desperately mashing a square peg into a round hole. Furthermore, SF is clearly not a military in that the shape and equipment of their ships are for science, exploration, colonisation etc. The galaxy class is woefully outclassed by the dominion, as are the intrepid and mirandas. They won because of superior strategy, not because they're such a powerful military.

Oh and in one episode, federation soldiers get a fabric uniform and a rifle. That's it. No body armour, extra equipment or anything else.

[New haven america]

And the Military explores while Starfleet engages in defence. You're trying to draw the thinnest of distinctions here.




You're comparing two fictional depictions and not that well.

Firstly, a Naval captain has to do exactly what the starfleet captain would do. Take recent harassment of US ships Iranian patrol craft. They did not fire, they employed every diplomatic solution first, and the Iranians left before it ever got to force. They're under the same constraints the starfleet captain is, knowing giving the order to fire likely means war. The only difference is we don't have any "unknown" players. We know all the countries with ships and what to do with that information. Theres no first contacts to be made.



Jack O'Neil is also Special Forces which is a Niche role within the larger military framework. His specific principle function within the frame work is combat. He doesnt operate the same way as a naval captain does.



Again, you're trying to draw the smallest of distinctions and even that doesnt work.

The definition of military is: of or relating to armed forces"

Starfleet is the armed forces of the Federation. They're the military.

Why are you ignoring how civilian they are. Why many of their ships carry civvies, Picards enterprise had a school and a barber for christs sake. DS9 wasn't exactly a military base, and in that very series it's outright stated that SF only begrudgingly made the defiant class in the face of the Borg threat, and only started making combat ships in earnest once the dominion war started, and presumably stopped immediately thereafter. You're clearly military minded and are desperately mashing a square peg into a round hole. Furthermore, SF is clearly not a military in that the shape and equipment of their ships are for science, exploration, colonisation etc. The galaxy class is woefully outclassed by the dominion, as are the intrepid and mirandas. They won because of superior strategy, not because they're such a powerful military.

Oh and in one episode, federation soldiers get a fabric uniform and a rifle. That's it. No body armour, extra equipment or anything else.

In STP they didn't, they actually ramped up militarization to the point that they have a fleet of 250+ of the exact same ship due to learning how to copy and paste.

Of course, that was made by The 4 Horsemen of the Trekspocalypse, so that just further proves my point the old Starfleet isn't a military.

[Tarsonis]

1. And the Military explores while Starfleet engages in defence. You're trying to draw the thinnest of distinctions here.




2. You're comparing two fictional depictions and not that well.

Firstly, a Naval captain has to do exactly what the starfleet captain would do. Take recent harassment of US ships Iranian patrol craft. They did not fire, they employed every diplomatic solution first, and the Iranians left before it ever got to force. They're under the same constraints the starfleet captain is, knowing giving the order to fire likely means war. The only difference is we don't have any "unknown" players. We know all the countries with ships and what to do with that information. Theres no first contacts to be made.



3. Jack O'Neil is also Special Forces which is a Niche role within the larger military framework. His specific principle function within the frame work is combat. He doesnt operate the same way as a naval captain does.



Again, you're trying to draw the smallest of distinctions and even that doesnt work.

The definition of military is: of or relating to armed forces"

4. Starfleet is the armed forces of the Federation. They're the military.

1. No, I'm making an obvious distinction that everyone else here apparently has no trouble seeing.

Oh I see the distinction, I just also realize it's a semantic one, and not practical.

Also, Just us and another guy talking, don't try to pull the ad populum card. especially since its 2v2 as Ameri weighed in earlier.

2. Not at all. You keep saying Starfleet is a military, then I'm going to keep listing off actual military action in other fiction.

Yes but you realize that it isn't "actual" military action right? We never actually invaded Klandathu and Jack O'neil didn't actually help the Asgard fight the Replicators. Fictionalized accounts necessarily aren't good standards of comparison. So, if we're going to debate if star fleet is
a military, let's use the real world military as our standard of comparison then.

3. And that does absolutely nothing to change my point considering he's only 1 drop in the ocean of sci-fi military behavior. In The Expanse for example the first go to response to any act of hostility between the 3 navies is combat first and foremost with diplomacy later. Same thing with Mass Effect. Or BSG 04, or would you like me to continue?

You can list off all the titles you want. It's irrelevant as none of them are real. Sci-fi depictions of the military have no bearing on what the military is, the actual real world military does.

4. Except they're not, they're an exploratory service.

That engages in armed conflict on behalf of its nation. Aka: military.

[Crysuko]

1. No, I'm making an obvious distinction that everyone else here apparently has no trouble seeing.

Oh I see the distinction, I just also realize it's a semantic one, and not practical.

Also, Just us and another guy talking, don't try to pull the ad populum card. especially since its 2v2 as Ameri weighed in earlier.

2. Not at all. You keep saying Starfleet is a military, then I'm going to keep listing off actual military action in other fiction.

Yes but you realize that it isn't "actual" military action right? We never actually invaded Klandathu and Jack O'neil didn't actually help the Asgard fight the Replicators. Fictionalized accounts necessarily aren't good standards of comparison. So, if we're going to debate if star fleet is
a military, let's use the real world military as our standard of comparison then.

3. And that does absolutely nothing to change my point considering he's only 1 drop in the ocean of sci-fi military behavior. In The Expanse for example the first go to response to any act of hostility between the 3 navies is combat first and foremost with diplomacy later. Same thing with Mass Effect. Or BSG 04, or would you like me to continue?

You can list off all the titles you want. It's irrelevant as none of them are real. Sci-fi depictions of the military have no bearing on what the military is, the actual real world military does.

4. Except they're not, they're an exploratory service.

That engages in armed conflict on behalf of its nation. Aka: military.

Your ignorance of their civilian aspects is deeply frustrating. I made a post about this. Address it.

[Tarsonis]

And the Military explores while Starfleet engages in defence. You're trying to draw the thinnest of distinctions here.




You're comparing two fictional depictions and not that well.

Firstly, a Naval captain has to do exactly what the starfleet captain would do. Take recent harassment of US ships Iranian patrol craft. They did not fire, they employed every diplomatic solution first, and the Iranians left before it ever got to force. They're under the same constraints the starfleet captain is, knowing giving the order to fire likely means war. The only difference is we don't have any "unknown" players. We know all the countries with ships and what to do with that information. Theres no first contacts to be made.



Jack O'Neil is also Special Forces which is a Niche role within the larger military framework. His specific principle function within the frame work is combat. He doesnt operate the same way as a naval captain does.



Again, you're trying to draw the smallest of distinctions and even that doesnt work.

The definition of military is: of or relating to armed forces"

Starfleet is the armed forces of the Federation. They're the military.

Why are you ignoring how civilian they are. Why many of their ships carry civvies, Picards enterprise had a school and a barber for christs sake.

Yeah. so do most military bases. We don't currently station families on ship, but we also don't currently send ships into deep space. Presence of civilians doesn't make it non military.

DS9 wasn't exactly a military base,

debatable. True while it was more a port than a base it was still run by starfleet and the bajoran military. And armed to the fucking teeth.

and in that very series it's outright stated that SF only begrudgingly made the defiant class in the face of the Borg threat, and only started making combat ships in earnest once the dominion war started,

because they realized the gaping flaw in their set up

and presumably stopped immediately thereafter.

Not according to STP. They built a fuckton apparently.

You're clearly military minded and are desperately mashing a square peg into a round hole.

No, it sounds more to me like you don't really know what the military actually does.

Furthermore, SF is clearly not a military in that the shape and equipment of their ships are for science, exploration, colonisation etc. The galaxy class is woefully outclassed by the dominion, as are the intrepid and mirandas.

But not out classed by Romulan Warbirds or Klingon Battle cruisers. Iran's speed boats are dramatically outclassed by Nimitz Class Aircraft carrier, doesnt make them not a Navy.

They won because of superior strategy, not because they're such a powerful military.

So like how the Continental Army defeated the British Empire because Cornwallis couldn't read a map? Come on man, none of this has anything to do with weather or not Star Fleet is the Federation's military.

Oh and in one episode, federation soldiers get a fabric uniform and a rifle. That's it. No body armour, extra equipment or anything else.

And? An ill equipped military is a military none the less.

[Tarsonis]

Oh I see the distinction, I just also realize it's a semantic one, and not practical.

Also, Just us and another guy talking, don't try to pull the ad populum card. especially since its 2v2 as Ameri weighed in earlier.


Yes but you realize that it isn't "actual" military action right? We never actually invaded Klandathu and Jack O'neil didn't actually help the Asgard fight the Replicators. Fictionalized accounts necessarily aren't good standards of comparison. So, if we're going to debate if star fleet is
a military, let's use the real world military as our standard of comparison then.



You can list off all the titles you want. It's irrelevant as none of them are real. Sci-fi depictions of the military have no bearing on what the military is, the actual real world military does.



That engages in armed conflict on behalf of its nation. Aka: military.

Your ignorance of their civilian aspects is deeply frustrating. I made a post about this. Address it.

Okay TL:DR tons of civilians are integrated into the military. Civilian presence doesn't make them not military. Civilians aren't the ones running the ship.

[Tarsonis]

Oh I see the distinction, I just also realize it's a semantic one, and not practical.

Also, Just us and another guy talking, don't try to pull the ad populum card. especially since its 2v2 as Ameri weighed in earlier.


Yes but you realize that it isn't "actual" military action right? We never actually invaded Klandathu and Jack O'neil didn't actually help the Asgard fight the Replicators. Fictionalized accounts necessarily aren't good standards of comparison. So, if we're going to debate if star fleet is
a military, let's use the real world military as our standard of comparison then.



You can list off all the titles you want. It's irrelevant as none of them are real. Sci-fi depictions of the military have no bearing on what the military is, the actual real world military does.



That engages in armed conflict on behalf of its nation. Aka: military.

Your ignorance of their civilian aspects is deeply frustrating. I made a post about this. Address it.

To further the point here, you seem to be conflating modern military doctrine, with what the military actually is. The Military is a nations armed services. The military doctrines that govern what the military does depends on situation and global factors.; i.e Peacetime Military doctrine is a lot different from War Time Military doctrine.

Modern military doctrines are largely the result of the 20th century wars, and having the map filled in. But this was not always the case. Starfleet's military doctrine is similar to that of Victorian Britain's. Yes during war time they fought, but during peace time they were primarily concerned with protecting commerce and colonies from pirates and privateers (like NX-01 defending Freighters or the rest responding to colony distress calls). They engaged in exploration ex:the HMS Terror fought in the War of 1812, but was lost on an expedition to discover the northwest passage. They engaged in diplomacy ex: Admiral Matthew Perry was the US primary diplomat to Japan and forced them to open the country. They also engaged in science and development; ex Lt. Col John Henry Patterson tasked with designing and building a railroad bridge over the river Tsavo.


The Military can and does do far more than fight. Starfleet might not be primarily geared to combat, but when war comes they're the ones in the trenches and in the sky. They're military. They operate like the military, they fill the role of the military. Quack quack, they're the military.

[La Paz de Los Ricos]

Jesus, four pages? What the hell happened here?

[Tarsonis]

Here let's simplify:


Both you guys approaching the question of "Is Starfleet the military?" from the angle of "what is star fleet?" when really the question you should be asking "What is the military?" The Military is a nation's armed forces. Meaning, what ever their normal day to day activities might be, the military are the ones who fight on behalf of their nation in times of war. While starfleet may not be combat oriented during times of peace, when the Federation goes to war, it's Star Fleet that fights. It's not some separate organization. That makes them the Federation's military, even if their normal peace time function is science, exploration, diplomacy, etc.

[New haven america]

Here let's simplify:


Both you guys approaching the question of "Is Starfleet the military?" from the angle of "what is star fleet?" when really the question you should be asking "What is the military?" The Military is a nation's armed forces. Meaning, what ever their normal day to day activities might be, the military are the ones who fight on behalf of their nation in times of war. While starfleet may not be combat oriented during times of peace, when the Federation goes to war, it's Star Fleet that fights. It's not some separate organization. That makes them the Federation's military, even if their normal peace time function is science, exploration, diplomacy, etc.

No, I think the issue here is that you want to fit something into a neat little box you made when Starfleet's very reason for existence defies the purpose of your box.

[Tarsonis]

Here let's simplify:


Both you guys approaching the question of "Is Starfleet the military?" from the angle of "what is star fleet?" when really the question you should be asking "What is the military?" The Military is a nation's armed forces. Meaning, what ever their normal day to day activities might be, the military are the ones who fight on behalf of their nation in times of war. While starfleet may not be combat oriented during times of peace, when the Federation goes to war, it's Star Fleet that fights. It's not some separate organization. That makes them the Federation's military, even if their normal peace time function is science, exploration, diplomacy, etc.

No, I think the issue here is that you want to fit something into a neat little box you made when Starfleet's very reason for existence defies the purpose of your box.

Okay, who fights the Federation's wars?

[New haven america]

No, I think the issue here is that you want to fit something into a neat little box you made when Starfleet's very reason for existence defies the purpose of your box.

Okay, who fights the Federation's wars?

We've already been over this.

The military's first and foremost responsibility is the defense of the homeland and to serve the leader's self interest, while only using diplomacy and science to further defensive security. Starfleet's first and foremost responsibility is exploration/diplomacy and science, only acting in defense as a consequence of that.

So again, you're trying to stick something in a box you made when the entity defies the very reason for the box.

[Tarsonis]

Okay, who fights the Federation's wars?

We've already been over this.

The military's first and foremost responsibility is the defense of the homeland and to serve the leader's self interest, while only using diplomacy and science to further defensive security. Starfleet's first and foremost responsibility is exploration/diplomacy and science, only acting in defense as a consequence of that.

So again, you're trying to stick something in a box you made when the entity defies the very reason for the box.

You didn't answer the question. You avoided it. Incorrectly I might add as that's not inherently true. While that is the military doctrine of most of the world's militaries today, that doesn't make it an inherent quality of the military. Especially as "The Military" isn't actually a thing, so much as it is a collections of things. There is no organization called the military, there multiplied organizations that we classify as military. The US. Army, The US Navy, The US Air. (Fun fact the US coast guard isnt classified as military except in times of war.)

Military is a description of function, nothing more. StarFleet during times of war fills that function and thus is appropriately classified as military. I'll concede that during peace time, like the USCG they aren't technically classified as military, but they are the military arm of the government when the shit goes down. And like the CG they maintain military customs and courtesies during peace time.

[New haven america]

We've already been over this.

The military's first and foremost responsibility is the defense of the homeland and to serve the leader's self interest, while only using diplomacy and science to further defensive security. Starfleet's first and foremost responsibility is exploration/diplomacy and science, only acting in defense as a consequence of that.

So again, you're trying to stick something in a box you made when the entity defies the very reason for the box.

1. You didn't answer the question. You avoided it. 2. Incorrectly I might add as that's not inherently true. 3. While that is the military doctrine of most of the world's militaries today, that doesn't make it an inherent quality of the military. Especially as "The Military" isn't actually a thing, so much as it is a collections of things. There is no organization called the military, there multiplied organizations that we classify as military. The US. Army, The US Navy, The US Air. (Fun fact the US coast guard isnt classified as military except in times of war.)

4. Military is a description of function, nothing more. StarFleet during times of war fills that function and thus is appropriately classified as military. I'll concede that during peace time, like the USCG they aren't technically classified as military, but they are the military arm of the government when the shit goes down. And like the CG they maintain military customs and courtesies during peace time.

1. Yes, I actually did: Starfleet's first and foremost responsibility is exploration/diplomacy and science, only acting in defense as a consequence of that. Any other questions?
2. No, completely correct.
3. No, that is an inherent quality of the military, defense of the homeland and the leader's best interest. Has been since Mesopotamia and Egypt, and will continue to be so for the foreseeable future.
4. Again, here we see you trying to fit something into a box even though the entity's inherent nature defies the very purpose of your box.

[Tarsonis]

1. You didn't answer the question. You avoided it. 2. Incorrectly I might add as that's not inherently true. 3. While that is the military doctrine of most of the world's militaries today, that doesn't make it an inherent quality of the military. Especially as "The Military" isn't actually a thing, so much as it is a collections of things. There is no organization called the military, there multiplied organizations that we classify as military. The US. Army, The US Navy, The US Air. (Fun fact the US coast guard isnt classified as military except in times of war.)

4. Military is a description of function, nothing more. StarFleet during times of war fills that function and thus is appropriately classified as military. I'll concede that during peace time, like the USCG they aren't technically classified as military, but they are the military arm of the government when the shit goes down. And like the CG they maintain military customs and courtesies during peace time.

1. Yes, I actually did: Starfleet's first and foremost responsibility is exploration/diplomacy and science, only acting in defense as a consequence of that. Any other questions?

Except the bolded doesn't logically follow from the "responsibility." a group can be responsible for those and not expected to fight wars.

2. No, completely correct.

I can demonstrate over and over how its not. As I've already done so.

3. No, that is an inherent quality of the military, defense of the homeland and the leader's best interest. Has been since Mesopotamia and Egypt, and will continue to be so for the foreseeable future.

You seriously just demonstrated how you know nothing of the concept of the military and how it has evolved over millenia from culture to culture.

4. Again, here we see you trying to fit something into a box even though the entity's inherent nature defies the very purpose of your box.

And here we see you closing your eyes and stamping your feet in ignorance.

Words have meaning Haven, you can't run from them.

[The Huskar Social Union]

Omg it’s still happening yesss

[Juristonia]

At this point, wouldn't it be easier if you guys just whipped them out and found a tape measure somewhere?

[Morrdh]

Personally I feel Starfleet can be best described as a reluctant military.

The long cold war with the Klingon Empire saw Starfleet being militant despite it's main mission being exploration, with the Kithomar Accords Starfleet was able to adopt a more pacifist stance which left it unprepared for both the Borg and later the Dominion (despite the Cardassian Border Wars).

Starfleet is only military when it has no other choice but to be military.

Anyhows.

Interest and poll for a potential Trek RP.

viewtopic.php?f=31&t=490017

[Crysuko]

1. Yes, I actually did: Starfleet's first and foremost responsibility is exploration/diplomacy and science, only acting in defense as a consequence of that. Any other questions?

Except the bolded doesn't logically follow from the "responsibility." a group can be responsible for those and not expected to fight wars.

2. No, completely correct.

I can demonstrate over and over how its not. As I've already done so.

3. No, that is an inherent quality of the military, defense of the homeland and the leader's best interest. Has been since Mesopotamia and Egypt, and will continue to be so for the foreseeable future.

You seriously just demonstrated how you know nothing of the concept of the military and how it has evolved over millenia from culture to culture.

4. Again, here we see you trying to fit something into a box even though the entity's inherent nature defies the very purpose of your box.

And here we see you closing your eyes and stamping your feet in ignorance.

Words have meaning Haven, you can't run from them.

by your logic a cat and a dog are the same thing because they're both pet animals that have fur. We can ignore the complexities of why they're not, because once we have an idea in our head we can twist and omit the facts as much as we want

[La Paz de Los Ricos]

Omg it’s still happening yesss

Hey, at least it's a debate, so they're keeping to the spirit of legacy Trek.

Come to think of it, imagine making a Trek episode about this debate.

[Tarsonis]

Except the bolded doesn't logically follow from the "responsibility." a group can be responsible for those and not expected to fight wars.



I can demonstrate over and over how its not. As I've already done so.





You seriously just demonstrated how you know nothing of the concept of the military and how it has evolved over millenia from culture to culture.




And here we see you closing your eyes and stamping your feet in ignorance.

Words have meaning Haven, you can't run from them.

by your logic a cat and a dog are the same thing because they're both pet animals that have fur. We can ignore the complexities of why they're not, because once we have an idea in our head we can twist and omit the facts as much as we want

No because what makes a cat and a dog, a cat and a dog is not their function. They are however pets (assuming they're owned and domesticated) because they fill that role. Many things can be pets, but theyre not pets unless they fill that specific role.

New Haven keeps trying to define Military by a particular ethos but thats not accurate. While most modern militaries do espouse that ethos, that is not the defining characteristics of a military, nor have all militaries espoused that ethos. "The Military" is whoever is charged with fighting a nations war. While they might have different functions in peace time, in times of war starfleet is the one who fights the war. Thus they are, by definition, the military. They just espouse a different ethos than today's militaries.


Like I said Starfleet seems structured along the lines of Victorian Era Western Navies, which again during war time were principally concerned with fighting, but during peace time were tasked with all manner of exploration, diplomacy, scientific discovery etc.