Scifi TV Discussion Thread

[Crysuko]

No, a military's first job is defense, with anything else like exploration or diplomacy only coming as a consequence of needing to work to build a greater defense or working towards their bosses own self interests.

Now a days perhaps, but thats because there's not much left to explore. In the colonial age the Military had exploratory roles as well.

Starfleet's job first and foremost is exploration/diplomacy and scientific research. We don't have any service in this day and age that's comparable to Starfleet.

Sure, but they also spend a lot of time working on weaponry for that diplomatic fleet. While yes, it's not their primary mission Star Fleet still does take on that role of defending the federation which meets the definition of military

"relating to or characteristic of soldiers or armed forces."

They even have the same hegemonic culture of the modern military, NATO ranks and all.

because the writers have only the modern day to use as reference, what do you expect

[Tarsonis]

like a military?

I needed an oven mitt for that one, jesus christ. a military is designed to defend it's state and it's interests. starfleet is exploratory, scientific, humanitarian, in some ways experimental. you're being insultingly reductionist

The Military does all those things. In the Mideast the military isn't just killing terrorists, they provide medical support to the locals, build schools, roads, train local armed forces and police. General Mattis was famous for his straightforward diplomacy when dealing with local tribal leaders.

The US Navy is principally responsible for mapping the ocean floor, maintaining research bases in Antarctica. And the Air force, I mean Area 51 is the most famous aeronautical research base in the world.

The Military does all of those things, even while its primary mission is defense.

While Starfleet isn't principally concerned with defense, that is still one of its purposes.

Military is an accurate description.

[Tarsonis]

Now a days perhaps, but thats because there's not much left to explore. In the colonial age the Military had exploratory roles as well.



Sure, but they also spend a lot of time working on weaponry for that diplomatic fleet. While yes, it's not their primary mission Star Fleet still does take on that role of defending the federation which meets the definition of military

"relating to or characteristic of soldiers or armed forces."

They even have the same hegemonic culture of the modern military, NATO ranks and all.

because the writers have only the modern day to use as reference, what do you expect

So it's not a military it's just entirely based on the military?.

[Crysuko]

I needed an oven mitt for that one, jesus christ. a military is designed to defend it's state and it's interests. starfleet is exploratory, scientific, humanitarian, in some ways experimental. you're being insultingly reductionist

The Military does all those things. In the Mideast the military isn't just killing terrorists, they provide medical support to the locals, build schools, roads, train local armed forces and police. General Mattis was famous for his straightforward diplomacy when dealing with local tribal leaders.

The US Navy is principally responsible for mapping the ocean floor, maintaining research bases in Antarctica. And the Air force, I mean Area 51 is the most famous aeronautical research base in the world.

The Military does all of those things, even while its primary mission is defense.

While Starfleet isn't principally concerned with defense, that is still one of its purposes.

Military is an accurate description.

it's not the military's job to do all those other things. if it does, that's called a junta. they perform research into new ways to blow up hapless unfortunates. again, reductionist.

[New haven america]

I needed an oven mitt for that one, jesus christ. a military is designed to defend it's state and it's interests. starfleet is exploratory, scientific, humanitarian, in some ways experimental. you're being insultingly reductionist

1. The Military does all those things. In the Mideast the military isn't just killing terrorists, they provide medical support to the locals, build schools, roads, train local armed forces and police. General Mattis was famous for his straightforward diplomacy when dealing with local tribal leaders.

2. The US Navy is principally responsible for mapping the ocean floor, maintaining research bases in Antarctica. And the Air force, I mean Area 51 is the most famous aeronautical research base in the world.

The Military does all of those things, even while its primary mission is defense.

While Starfleet isn't principally concerned with defense, that is still one of its purposes.

3. Military is an accurate description.

1. Again, not because they want to, but as a consequence of needing to to build defensive relations to strengthen the defense of their leader's interests.
2. Because it helps in defending the homeland, not because they want to just because they can.
3. Except it's not, sorry.

[Crysuko]

because the writers have only the modern day to use as reference, what do you expect

So it's not a military it's just entirely based on the military?.

do you expect them to just make up a new ranking system, or apply a good enough existing one. and not entirely. you seem incapable of realising how civilian a lot of it is.

[New haven america]

because the writers have only the modern day to use as reference, what do you expect

So it's not a military it's just entirely based on the military?.

Old Starfleet? No.
Modern Starfleet because The 4 Horsemen of the Trekspocalypes are uninspired hacks? Yes.

[New haven america]

You know that robot chick in STD? Would her species be affected by "Galactic Treaty"?

Do people with any type of synthetic implant fall under the condition of synthetic life listed within "Galactic Treaty"? Did they have to shut down Geordie or Nog because of their synthetic body parts being in violation of "Galactic Treaty"? How are Universal Translators allowed under "Galactic Treaty" considering they're implants and almost everyone has them?

[Tarsonis]

Ok, so in STP artificial synthetic life is banned right, with the main reason for this being "Galactic Treaty."

So, quick question, what is this "Galactic Treaty"? Who does it apply to? Does its ideas and policies stretch across the entire galaxy or just the known areas of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants? Why is it an attack that happened only in The Federation lead to a ban of Synths in areas that aren't The Federation? Why does it apply to synthetic organisms like Data (B4) or The Doctor even though they're legally considered people? Does this apply to synthetic species like that one robot chick in STD? Does Alex Kurtzman hate Star Trek (The answer is yes)?

I'm sorry, but the reasoning behind the Synth ban in STP makes no sense.

Lazy writing. I thought it was just Federation Law, but since the federation is an association of autonomous planets, laws would technically all be done by treaty.


Now that would be some top trek, exploring the political structures and nuances of the federation legal/government system. Like the West Wing, only Star Trek

[Tarsonis]

You know that robot chick in STD? Would her species be affected by "Galactic Treaty"?

Do people with any type of synthetic implant fall under the condition of synthetic life listed within "Galactic Treaty"? Did they have to shut down Geordie or Nog because of their synthetic body parts being in violation of "Galactic Treaty"?

I'm gonna say no. Cybernetic enhancements don't really fall under the "synthetic life form" as they described it. Basically it was a ban on creating positronic matrices

[Crysuko]

Ok, so in STP artificial synthetic life is banned right, with the main reason for this being "Galactic Treaty."

So, quick question, what is this "Galactic Treaty"? Who does it apply to? Does its ideas and policies stretch across the entire galaxy or just the known areas of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants? Why is it an attack that happened only in The Federation lead to a ban of Synths in areas that aren't The Federation? Why does it apply to synthetic organisms like Data (B4) or The Doctor even though they're legally considered people? Does this apply to synthetic species like that one robot chick in STD? Does Alex Kurtzman hate Star Trek (The answer is yes)?

I'm sorry, but the reasoning behind the Synth ban in STP makes no sense.

Lazy writing. I thought it was just Federation Law, but since the federation is an association of autonomous planets, laws would technically all be done by treaty.


Now that would be some top trek, exploring the political structures and nuances of the federation legal/government system. Like the West Wing, only Star Trek

despite it's name, it's likely governed in a confederal style. the civil service and beauracracy required for a unitary state of that size would be prohibitive to say the least.

[Tarsonis]

So it's not a military it's just entirely based on the military?.

Old Starfleet? No.
Modern Starfleet because The 4 Horsemen of the Trekspocalypes are uninspired hacks? Yes.

Uh They had the same hegemonic social structure in TNG as they had in Disco

[Crysuko]

Old Starfleet? No.
Modern Starfleet because The 4 Horsemen of the Trekspocalypes are uninspired hacks? Yes.

Uh They had the same hegemonic social structure in TNG as they had in Disco

because they used a ranking system? I don't understand this complaint

[Tarsonis]

Lazy writing. I thought it was just Federation Law, but since the federation is an association of autonomous planets, laws would technically all be done by treaty.


Now that would be some top trek, exploring the political structures and nuances of the federation legal/government system. Like the West Wing, only Star Trek

despite it's name, it's likely governed in a confederal style. the civil service and beauracracy required for a unitary state of that size would be prohibitive to say the least.

But could planets come and go as they please or did they have to subjugate themselves to federation laws? It always struck me as the former.

[New haven america]

You know that robot chick in STD? Would her species be affected by "Galactic Treaty"?

Do people with any type of synthetic implant fall under the condition of synthetic life listed within "Galactic Treaty"? Did they have to shut down Geordie or Nog because of their synthetic body parts being in violation of "Galactic Treaty"?

I'm gonna say no. Cybernetic enhancements don't really fall under the "synthetic life form" as they described it. Basically it was a ban on creating positronic matrices

Then what about the robot chick in STD? She's seemingly from a species of synthetic organisms? Is she banned? (Oh wait, she got blown out an airlock before "Galactic Treaty" happened...)

[Crysuko]

despite it's name, it's likely governed in a confederal style. the civil service and beauracracy required for a unitary state of that size would be prohibitive to say the least.

But could planets come and go as they please or did they have to subjugate themselves to federation laws? It always struck me as the former.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confederation

[New haven america]

despite it's name, it's likely governed in a confederal style. the civil service and beauracracy required for a unitary state of that size would be prohibitive to say the least.

But could planets come and go as they please or did they have to subjugate themselves to federation laws? It always struck me as the former.

14 species threated to leave The Federation if they decided to help the Romulans, so despite apparently needing to meet a strict social and political standard apparently it's the former and they just let a bunch of racists and xenophobes who are ok with genocide in all the time.

[Tarsonis]

Uh They had the same hegemonic social structure in TNG as they had in Disco

because they used a ranking system? I don't understand this complaint

That they have a strict hedgemonic system at all:

The Admiralty
The Captain.
The XO
The Senior Officers
The Crew


Strict code of customs and courtesies, discipline, absolute command structure, Duty rotations, duty post, battle stations, etc etc etc. It's not a commercial cruise liner out there, it's completely run like a military vessel.


Just as it was in TOS, TNG, DS9, Voyager, etc.

The only difference between star fleet and the military, honestly, is that they say they aren't military.

[Tarsonis]

But could planets come and go as they please or did they have to subjugate themselves to federation laws? It always struck me as the former.

14 species threated to leave The Federation if they decided to help the Romulans, so despite apparently needing to meet a strict social and political standard apparently it's the former and they just let a bunch of racists and xenophobes who are ok with genocide in all the time.

Politics is a messy business.

[New haven america]

Ok, so in STP artificial synthetic life is banned right, with the main reason for this being "Galactic Treaty."

So, quick question, what is this "Galactic Treaty"? Who does it apply to? Does its ideas and policies stretch across the entire galaxy or just the known areas of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants? Why is it an attack that happened only in The Federation lead to a ban of Synths in areas that aren't The Federation? Why does it apply to synthetic organisms like Data (B4) or The Doctor even though they're legally considered people? Does this apply to synthetic species like that one robot chick in STD? Does Alex Kurtzman hate Star Trek (The answer is yes)?

I'm sorry, but the reasoning behind the Synth ban in STP makes no sense.

1. Lazy writing. I thought it was just Federation Law, but since the federation is an association of autonomous planets, laws would technically all be done by treaty.


2. Now that would be some top trek, exploring the political structures and nuances of the federation legal/government system. Like the West Wing, only Star Trek

1. Then why are the Klingons and Romulans banned from experimenting with it? And yes, there are cyberneticists and AI specialists in the RSE, as can be seen in the one of the best TNG episodes ever, The Deserter.
2. No, that's too boring and niche for modern audiences.

[Crysuko]

because they used a ranking system? I don't understand this complaint

That they have a strict hedgemonic system at all:

The Admiralty
The Captain.
The XO
The Senior Officers
The Crew


Strict code of customs and courtesies, discipline, absolute command structure, Duty rotations, duty post, battle stations, etc etc etc. It's not a commercial cruise liner out there, it's completely run like a military vessel.


Just as it was in TOS, TNG, DS9, Voyager, etc.

The only difference between star fleet and the military, honestly, is that they say they aren't military.

If you ignore all the reasons why it isn't, sure.

[Tarsonis]

The Military does all those things. In the Mideast the military isn't just killing terrorists, they provide medical support to the locals, build schools, roads, train local armed forces and police. General Mattis was famous for his straightforward diplomacy when dealing with local tribal leaders.

The US Navy is principally responsible for mapping the ocean floor, maintaining research bases in Antarctica. And the Air force, I mean Area 51 is the most famous aeronautical research base in the world.

The Military does all of those things, even while its primary mission is defense.

While Starfleet isn't principally concerned with defense, that is still one of its purposes.

Military is an accurate description.

it's not the military's job to do all those other things. if it does, that's called a junta. they perform research into new ways to blow up hapless unfortunates. again, reductionist.

No, it's only a junta if they seize control of the government. "Paradise Lost" for example.

Yes, they research ways of blowing stuff up. They also do medical research on ways to treat injuries which translates into products in the Civilian medical market. The USAF pioneered space exploration before NASA was founded. Radar was first developed by and for the military in WW2.

Really the reductionist one is you here, in terms of how you view the military. You seem to think anything beyond pulling a trigger to be beyond the scope of their function and that's categorically false.

[Tarsonis]

That they have a strict hedgemonic system at all:

The Admiralty
The Captain.
The XO
The Senior Officers
The Crew


Strict code of customs and courtesies, discipline, absolute command structure, Duty rotations, duty post, battle stations, etc etc etc. It's not a commercial cruise liner out there, it's completely run like a military vessel.


Just as it was in TOS, TNG, DS9, Voyager, etc.

The only difference between star fleet and the military, honestly, is that they say they aren't military.

If you ignore all the reasons why it isn't, sure.

You haven't given me any, beyond defense isn't their *primary* concern.

[Tarsonis]

1. Lazy writing. I thought it was just Federation Law, but since the federation is an association of autonomous planets, laws would technically all be done by treaty.


2. Now that would be some top trek, exploring the political structures and nuances of the federation legal/government system. Like the West Wing, only Star Trek

1. Then why are the Klingons and Romulans banned from experimenting with it? And yes, there are cyberneticists and AI specialists in the RSE, as can be seen in the one of the best TNG episodes ever, The Deserter.
2. No, that's too boring and niche for modern audiences.

1. I don't think that it was an international treety so much as each nation passed their own version of the law.

2. I dunno, went over great in the SW franchise

[New haven america]

because they used a ranking system? I don't understand this complaint

That they have a strict hedgemonic system at all:

The Admiralty
The Captain.
The XO
The Senior Officers
The Crew


Strict code of customs and courtesies, discipline, absolute command structure, Duty rotations, duty post, battle stations, etc etc etc. It's not a commercial cruise liner out there, it's completely run like a military vessel.


Just as it was in TOS, TNG, DS9, Voyager, etc.

The only difference between star fleet and the military, honestly, is that they say they aren't military.

Or the fact that, again, their main goal is exploration and diplomacy while the military's main goal is defense.

Ok, ok, let's make a comparison. In Star Trek, a show with a cast that's not part of the military, generally in a situation where a species presents itself as hostile the captain of the Starfleet ship will try to either diplomatically sooth things over or take the head of the hostile power and avoid them until a later date. Now, in Stargate, a show with a cast that is mostly in the military, their first line of action is to always assume everything is hostile until it's dead and if a species presents hostility then the first action taken would be to present defensive measures first and diplomacy later.

Jack O'Neill would be arrested and court marshalled for gross incompetence if he was a Starfleet Captain because of how he acts on a episode by episode basis in SG-1.