Scifi TV Discussion Thread

[New haven america]

So what was the ends justifying the means in For the Uniform?

Really he didn't do anything wrong, he just balanced the scales. The Maquis had poisoned a Cardassian world making it uninhabitable to Cardassians. Sisko made a Maquis world uninhabitable to the Maki. So they switched planets. The balance of power didn't shift, nobody came out a head, except for Sisko who caught a rogue agent, and all their biogenic weapons. Really I can't see that Sisko did anything bad beyond generally you shouldn't irradiate planets.

Yes he did.

He didn't destroy the planet because of The Maquis, he did it because he was pissed off at Eddington and couldn't let go of a grudge. I pointed that little character flaw out earlier.

[NERVUN]

You're missing the point though, in almost every instant the characters broke protocol or regulations they had to either deal with the consequences or look into the moral ambiguity of their actions. Michael never has such a thing happen to her, she holds that she was in the right the entire time.

... Did you WATCH the first season of Discovery? Or this one for that matter?

*sighs* Why is it that every single Disco hater keeps going on about how Michael does THIS when literally every OTHER instance of Trek has done the same? And no, most of the time they NEVER had to face the consequences of their actions, or at least never beyond the end of the ep.

[NERVUN]

Oh sweet summer child...
TOS: Every single member of that crew, especially Kirk, had multiple instances of violating orders and regs. In ANY real military, saving the planet or not, they would have been long since tossed. As for knowing better, HOW many times were commodores shown to be bloody idiots and Kirk knew best?

TNG:
Worf Let's kill people! But it's ok, you're Klingon.
Data: Stole the Enterprise
Picard: I'm gonna violate orders! BTW, I DO know better than any admiral in Starfleet
Riker: Hey, mind if I go down and kidnap my girlfriend? Oh, and um, it seems I kinda was involved in a massive violation of Federation Law...
The whole of the crew: Prime Directive? WHAT Prime Directive?

DS9:
Sisko: Pale Moonlight anyone? Murder, cheating, falsification...
Dax: I'm gonna go kill people! It's ok, you were... pretending to be a Klingon?
Odo: Did I mention that I did a number of things that probably were morally questionable when the Cardassians were in charge?
Kira: As a former terrorist, that's ok!
Worf: Do you mind if I kill the leader of the guys fighting the war with us? It's ok, you're Klingon.

Voy: The whole damn ship: Prime Directive? WHAT Prime Directive?

Ent: Get's a wee bit of a pass due to not having a Federation.

The truth of the matter is simply that every single instance of Trek has ALWAYS had its characters disobeying orders for dramatic reasons. It's a TV show! It has to have drama!So grumping about Michael is missing the mark. Same with her being intelligent. All Trek shows have shown the brass to be a group of people that can't pour water out of their boots with instructions on the heels. THAT'S been a trope since Season 1 TOS.

As for a Mary Sue, hardly. But if you want one... I give you Wesley Crusher... named after Gene Roddenberry.

Some objections.

Worf spent most of his time being snubbed and told no
Data was later killed
Picard violated orders to help save an entire race from the Son'a
Riker was fully aware it was a cover up and it burned him up inside every day of his life
ITPM was a classic case of "the ends justify the means", intended to show that in war, the "good guys" often end up doing reprehensible things as well
Dax killed a bunch of goons in pursuit of a criminal
Odo spent every waking moment silently hating himself for the things he did for the Cardassians, and made earnest efforts to repent
Kira was a freedom fighter, the show makes no bones about how brutal the occupation was

I'm not defending Voyager, have at it.

Worf got told no. That's not an excuse for murder.
Data got killed, so? (Also noting Disco ain't over).
Picard: See, this is it exactly. As long as EVERYTHING TURNS OUT OK, violation of orders is A-ok in the ST universe. So far Michael's actions caused her to be broken (Season 1) and every other instance of disobedience has shown her to be right... which is exactly in line with ST canon.
Riker: And... going down to try and kidnap his gf? That burns him up? Oh, sorry, we never spoke of that again. Or the Pegasus for that matter.
ITPM still shows crimes being committed. Not exactly the best way to claim that Michael is a bad character.
Dax: Still committed murder. And walked back into Ops like nothing happened. Except for a look from Sisko, nothing DID.
Odo: See Michael...
Kira: Still committed some very bad actions in the name of her cause.

Again, the point wasn't that everyone else is better, but that to claim Michael is somehow different than previous characters is false. There's been a lot of drama in the past that, due to the nature of TV at the time, didn't really get dealt with. Disco has made a point of making sure such things DO have consequences.

[New haven america]

You're missing the point though, in almost every instant the characters broke protocol or regulations they had to either deal with the consequences or look into the moral ambiguity of their actions. Michael never has such a thing happen to her, she holds that she was in the right the entire time.

1. Did you WATCH the first season of Discovery? Or this one for that matter?

2. *sighs* Why is it that every single Disco hater keeps going on about how Michael does THIS when literally every OTHER instance of Trek has done the same? And no, most of the time they NEVER had to face the consequences of their actions, or at least never beyond the end of the ep.

1. Yes, it was torture and felt like it went on for an eternity.
2. NERV, I expect better from you, and this thread in general. This isn't the ST subreddit, my points aren't magically going to disappear under a mountain of downvotes just because you say the word "Hater." Michael never thought she was in the wrong or doing something morally ambiguous, she truly believed she was in the right and constantly argued that if Cap. G. just let her do her thing then everything would've worked out fine.

Also, she never really got into any trouble for her actions either. Other than everyone believing she started the war, which she funnily enough did not because her plan was stopped. So the only real consequence of her action doesn't even really relate to her...

[Crysuko]

You're missing the point though, in almost every instant the characters broke protocol or regulations they had to either deal with the consequences or look into the moral ambiguity of their actions. Michael never has such a thing happen to her, she holds that she was in the right the entire time.

... Did you WATCH the first season of Discovery? Or this one for that matter?

*sighs* Why is it that every single Disco hater keeps going on about how Michael does THIS when literally every OTHER instance of Trek has done the same? And no, most of the time they NEVER had to face the consequences of their actions, or at least never beyond the end of the ep.

Except for when Worf got careless with the Defiant and nearly ended up on the recieving end of a black operation to yank him back to the empire, the consequence being to reign in the proud warrior race aspect.

Or when Picard mocked Q resulting in them being exposed to the Borg.

Or when Archer chose to launch a suicide mission agaonst the Xindi superweapon resulting in Trip being sacrificed.

Or when Kirk was forced to interfere with the timeline to be sent back to the proper time

Or when Sisko launched his own Black Op to bring the Romulans into the Dominion war

Or when Janeway screwed over the Viidians resulting in them being the focus of a few stories.

Had Micheal been faced with a not-deathstar barrelling towards Earth, she would have solved it by giving the Reptilians a stern talking to. Or gotten the Viidians to piss off by pulling some timeline mangling magitech out her backside.

Some objections.

Worf spent most of his time being snubbed and told no
Data was later killed
Picard violated orders to help save an entire race from the Son'a
Riker was fully aware it was a cover up and it burned him up inside every day of his life
ITPM was a classic case of "the ends justify the means", intended to show that in war, the "good guys" often end up doing reprehensible things as well
Dax killed a bunch of goons in pursuit of a criminal
Odo spent every waking moment silently hating himself for the things he did for the Cardassians, and made earnest efforts to repent
Kira was a freedom fighter, the show makes no bones about how brutal the occupation was

I'm not defending Voyager, have at it.

Worf got told no. That's not an excuse for murder.
Data got killed, so? (Also noting Disco ain't over).
Picard: See, this is it exactly. As long as EVERYTHING TURNS OUT OK, violation of orders is A-ok in the ST universe. So far Michael's actions caused her to be broken (Season 1) and every other instance of disobedience has shown her to be right... which is exactly in line with ST canon.
Riker: And... going down to try and kidnap his gf? That burns him up? Oh, sorry, we never spoke of that again. Or the Pegasus for that matter.
ITPM still shows crimes being committed. Not exactly the best way to claim that Michael is a bad character.
Dax: Still committed murder. And walked back into Ops like nothing happened. Except for a look from Sisko, nothing DID.
Odo: See Michael...
Kira: Still committed some very bad actions in the name of her cause.

Again, the point wasn't that everyone else is better, but that to claim Michael is somehow different than previous characters is false. There's been a lot of drama in the past that, due to the nature of TV at the time, didn't really get dealt with. Disco has made a point of making sure such things DO have consequences.

I'm not saying they're 100% squeaky clean and innocent, but i'm saying they got moral ambiguity, development and consequences for their actions. What does Micheal get other than some truly eye rolling backstory, and that most DIS episodes boil down to "Lt-Cmdr Definitely Not A Mary Sue just needs to ask captain stiffneck nicely and then the problem is solved"

[NERVUN]

1. Did you WATCH the first season of Discovery? Or this one for that matter?

2. *sighs* Why is it that every single Disco hater keeps going on about how Michael does THIS when literally every OTHER instance of Trek has done the same? And no, most of the time they NEVER had to face the consequences of their actions, or at least never beyond the end of the ep.

1. Yes, it was torture and felt like it went on for an eternity.
2. NERV, I expect better from you, and this thread in general. This isn't the ST subreddit, my points aren't magically going to disappear under a mountain of downvotes just because you say the word "Hater." Michael never thought she was in the wrong or doing something morally ambiguous, she truly believed she was in the right and constantly argued that if Cap. G. just let her do her thing then everything would've worked out fine.

I'm... sorry? Exactly at what point did this occur? When she was on the prison shuttle and noted in that broken voice about how many had been killed? When she told Lorca that she wanted to serve her sentence? When she stood on the bridge of the Discovery and told Admiral Cornwall that she had been WRONG to fire first? When she stood and admitted she had been wrong at her court marshal?

When exactly did she keep going on that she had been right? Oh yeah, the very first ep... and after that, she knew she had been wrong.

Also, she never really got into any trouble for her actions either. Other than everyone believing she started the war, which she funnily enough did not because her plan was stopped. So the only real consequence of her action doesn't even really relate to her...

... You think being stripped of her rank and sent to prison was NOT getting in trouble?

Exactly what would have BEEN getting in trouble? And exactly how did other characters get 'in to trouble' for any of their actions?

[NERVUN]

... Did you WATCH the first season of Discovery? Or this one for that matter?

*sighs* Why is it that every single Disco hater keeps going on about how Michael does THIS when literally every OTHER instance of Trek has done the same? And no, most of the time they NEVER had to face the consequences of their actions, or at least never beyond the end of the ep.

Except for when Worf got careless with the Defiant and nearly ended up on the recieving end of a black operation to yank him back to the empire, the consequence being to reign in the proud warrior race aspect.

Or when Picard mocked Q resulting in them being exposed to the Borg.

Or when Archer chose to launch a suicide mission agaonst the Xindi superweapon resulting in Trip being sacrificed.

Or when Kirk was forced to interfere with the timeline to be sent back to the proper time

Or when Sisko launched his own Black Op to bring the Romulans into the Dominion war

Or when Janeway screwed over the Viidians resulting in them being the focus of a few stories.

Had Micheal been faced with a not-deathstar barrelling towards Earth, she would have solved it by giving the Reptilians a stern talking to. Or gotten the Viidians to piss off by pulling some timeline mangling magitech out her backside.

Worf got told no. That's not an excuse for murder.
Data got killed, so? (Also noting Disco ain't over).
Picard: See, this is it exactly. As long as EVERYTHING TURNS OUT OK, violation of orders is A-ok in the ST universe. So far Michael's actions caused her to be broken (Season 1) and every other instance of disobedience has shown her to be right... which is exactly in line with ST canon.
Riker: And... going down to try and kidnap his gf? That burns him up? Oh, sorry, we never spoke of that again. Or the Pegasus for that matter.
ITPM still shows crimes being committed. Not exactly the best way to claim that Michael is a bad character.
Dax: Still committed murder. And walked back into Ops like nothing happened. Except for a look from Sisko, nothing DID.
Odo: See Michael...
Kira: Still committed some very bad actions in the name of her cause.

Again, the point wasn't that everyone else is better, but that to claim Michael is somehow different than previous characters is false. There's been a lot of drama in the past that, due to the nature of TV at the time, didn't really get dealt with. Disco has made a point of making sure such things DO have consequences.

I'm not saying they're 100% squeaky clean and innocent, but i'm saying they got moral ambiguity, development and consequences for their actions. What does Micheal get other than some truly eye rolling backstory, and that most DIS episodes boil down to "Lt-Cmdr Definitely Not A Mary Sue just needs to ask captain stiffneck nicely and then the problem is solved"

Exactly what did other characters get?

Oh, that's right. Nothing. Maybe a stern talking to by Picard, a bit of hand waving about how "Your actions will lose you the respect of your fellow officers" and next ep... Nothing's happened.

Again, not seeing anything different between Michael and every other character on Trek.

BTW, to be a Mary Sue, you have to be standing in for someone... Who exactly is Michael standing in for?

[New haven america]

1. Yes, it was torture and felt like it went on for an eternity.
2. NERV, I expect better from you, and this thread in general. This isn't the ST subreddit, my points aren't magically going to disappear under a mountain of downvotes just because you say the word "Hater." Michael never thought she was in the wrong or doing something morally ambiguous, she truly believed she was in the right and constantly argued that if Cap. G. just let her do her thing then everything would've worked out fine.

1a. I'm... sorry? Exactly at what point did this occur? When she was on the prison shuttle and noted in that broken voice about how many had been killed? 1b.When she told Lorca that she wanted to serve her sentence? c. When she stood on the bridge of the Discovery and told Admiral Cornwall that she had been WRONG to fire first? When she stood and admitted she had been wrong at her court marshal?

2. When exactly did she keep going on that she had been right? Oh yeah, the very first ep... and after that, she knew she had been wrong.

Also, she never really got into any trouble for her actions either. Other than everyone believing she started the war, which she funnily enough did not because her plan was stopped. So the only real consequence of her action doesn't even really relate to her...

3. ... You think being stripped of her rank and sent to prison was NOT getting in trouble?

Exactly what would have BEEN getting in trouble? And exactly how did other characters get 'in to trouble' for any of their actions?

1a. Throughout most of the series, 1b. For the mutiny she still believed she was correct in doing, 1c. She didn't fire first, the Klingons did. She was stopped from doing so, remember?
2. Throughout most of the show.
3. You mean an act that barely means anything because she never stayed in prison or experienced any real problems due to her demotion?

[Crysuko]

Except for when Worf got careless with the Defiant and nearly ended up on the recieving end of a black operation to yank him back to the empire, the consequence being to reign in the proud warrior race aspect.

Or when Picard mocked Q resulting in them being exposed to the Borg.

Or when Archer chose to launch a suicide mission agaonst the Xindi superweapon resulting in Trip being sacrificed.

Or when Kirk was forced to interfere with the timeline to be sent back to the proper time

Or when Sisko launched his own Black Op to bring the Romulans into the Dominion war

Or when Janeway screwed over the Viidians resulting in them being the focus of a few stories.

Had Micheal been faced with a not-deathstar barrelling towards Earth, she would have solved it by giving the Reptilians a stern talking to. Or gotten the Viidians to piss off by pulling some timeline mangling magitech out her backside.


I'm not saying they're 100% squeaky clean and innocent, but i'm saying they got moral ambiguity, development and consequences for their actions. What does Micheal get other than some truly eye rolling backstory, and that most DIS episodes boil down to "Lt-Cmdr Definitely Not A Mary Sue just needs to ask captain stiffneck nicely and then the problem is solved"

Exactly what did other characters get?

Oh, that's right. Nothing. Maybe a stern talking to by Picard, a bit of hand waving about how "Your actions will lose you the respect of your fellow officers" and next ep... Nothing's happened.

Again, not seeing anything different between Michael and every other character on Trek.

BTW, to be a Mary Sue, you have to be standing in for someone... Who exactly is Michael standing in for?

For christs sake, if you're going to argue against my posts at least do me the common decency of actually reading them. Oh, and she's a personification of the writing team having woefully little talent. I make no exaggeration when I say I've read fan fiction better than DIS, and in my mind it will never be canon because as I have said, it has continuity errors out the impulse manifold

[NERVUN]

1a. I'm... sorry? Exactly at what point did this occur? When she was on the prison shuttle and noted in that broken voice about how many had been killed? 1b.When she told Lorca that she wanted to serve her sentence? c. When she stood on the bridge of the Discovery and told Admiral Cornwall that she had been WRONG to fire first? When she stood and admitted she had been wrong at her court marshal?

2. When exactly did she keep going on that she had been right? Oh yeah, the very first ep... and after that, she knew she had been wrong.


3. ... You think being stripped of her rank and sent to prison was NOT getting in trouble?

Exactly what would have BEEN getting in trouble? And exactly how did other characters get 'in to trouble' for any of their actions?

1a. Throughout most of the series,

Bullshit. She was very clear that she felt she had been wrong from the court marshal on.

1b. For the mutiny she still believed she was correct in doing

,
See above. She was clear thoughout all season one that she was wrong. She kept saying that over and over again.

1c. She didn't fire first, the Klingons did. She was stopped from doing so, remember?

Yes, she said, and I quote:

That is all we have, Admiral.
A year ago I stood alone.
I believed that our survival was more important than our principles.
I was wrong.

Read more: https://www.springfieldspringfield.co.u ... ode=s01e15

2. Throughout most of the show.

Quotes please...

3. You mean an act that barely means anything because she never stayed in prison or experienced any real problems due to her demotion?

She was in jail for 6 fricken months, that means nothing? She lost her position, which meant the world to her, she lost her captain who was a (2nd, 3rd, bit hard to keep count) mother to her. She lost the friendship of her crew. Those are some fairly hefty penalties... NONE OF WHICH any OTHER 'bad' character (With the possible exception of Tom Paris) has ever had to deal with, or show having to deal with.

Edit: Don't like Michael or Disco, fine. No one has to like everyone or everything Trek. But at least choose criticisms that aren't the same tropes that can be applied to everything else in the Trek universe.

[NERVUN]

Exactly what did other characters get?

Oh, that's right. Nothing. Maybe a stern talking to by Picard, a bit of hand waving about how "Your actions will lose you the respect of your fellow officers" and next ep... Nothing's happened.

Again, not seeing anything different between Michael and every other character on Trek.

BTW, to be a Mary Sue, you have to be standing in for someone... Who exactly is Michael standing in for?

For christs sake, if you're going to argue against my posts at least do me the common decency of actually reading them. Oh, and she's a personification of the writing team having woefully little talent. I make no exaggeration when I say I've read fan fiction better than DIS, and in my mind it will never be canon because as I have said, it has continuity errors out the impulse manifold

Oh, now we're going for universe 'punishing' the characters. That's a different kettle of fish. And while you have those examples, I have over 750 eps of the universe NOT punishing the characters.

The second part is just bad blather. Since you ain't CBS, it's canon.

[Auristania]

Michael was never punished??? What part of being court-martialled for mutiny, starting a war and jay-walking and then being imprisoned for life with a bunch of mother-stabbers and father-rapers and litterer did you miss?

And by her Mary-Sue powers, she was right. Whorf's family, murdered by Romulans, so he is bigoted. Michael's family murdered by Space nazi Lizards, so she is bigoted too. Michael is accused to starting the Klingon War and it is clear that Space Nazi Lizards will start a war anyway. Whorf's bigotry was I will not volunteer to save the Romulan, but ifn Picard gives a direct order to save the Romulan, I will comply. So Picard goes all Prime Directive on dying Romulan's arse and refuses to give the order.

Whorf killing whom? Whorf refused to kill Durass' son, so of course Durass' son murdered thousands of people and Whorf whas rewharded.

[Wallenburg]

Oh, that's right. Nothing. Maybe a stern talking to by Picard, a bit of hand waving about how "Your actions will lose you the respect of your fellow officers" and next ep... Nothing's happened.

A reprimand will appear on your record.

[Auristania]

Oh, that's right. Nothing. Maybe a stern talking to by Picard, a bit of hand waving about how "Your actions will lose you the respect of your fellow officers" and next ep... Nothing's happened.

A reprimand will appear on your record.

Harry Kim got a permanent reprimand on his record for shagging an Alien Babe ONCE, he should have done it every week like Ryker.

[Tarsonis]

A reprimand will appear on your record.

Harry Kim got a permanent reprimand on his record for shagging an Alien Babe ONCE, he should have done it every week like Ryker.

We should all be so lucky

[The Alma Mater]

A reprimand will appear on your record.

Harry Kim got a permanent reprimand on his record for shagging an Alien Babe ONCE, he should have done it every week like Ryker.

And then be forced to wear a classic trek red shirt ?

[Ameriganastan]

At least Harry didn't get knocked up like Trip did.

[Tarsonis]

At least Harry didn't get knocked up like Trip did.

hey it happens to the best of us. Even the Enterprise.

[Vassenor]

At least Harry didn't get knocked up like Trip did.

Mostly because the closest he ever got to that involved a species that harvests males from other species, mates with them and kills them.

Or the Klingon who kept trying to proposition him, and ended up wrecking Tuvok's quarters getting down with Neelix.

[Tarsonis]

At least Harry didn't get knocked up like Trip did.

Mostly because the closest he ever got to that involved a species that harvests males from other species, mates with them and kills them.

Or the Klingon who kept trying to proposition him, and ended up wrecking Tuvok's quarters getting down with Neelix.

Yeah, but what a story that would have been.

[The Huskar Social Union]

Pikes scene were he sees his future in the Klingon temple and just takes it on the chest was brilliant. Anson Mount is terrific in this show.

Also control definitely has some strong Borg vibes to it, wonder if they will incorporate control into the origin of the Borg somehow

[Auristania]

Pikes scene were he sees his future in the Klingon temple and just takes it on the chest was brilliant. Anson Mount is terrific in this show.

Also control definitely has some strong Borg vibes to it, wonder if they will incorporate control into the origin of the Borg somehow

They might do if they cared about continuity so far Control is just bog-standard self-aware Skynet, They might make it different in later episodes.

[Juristonia]

Introducing Control as a precursor to the Borg would be pretty far from caring about continuity, considering what we know about the borg already.

Also, please don't bring back the Borg again.
I'm so fucking sick of the Borg being brought in as the big bad in every single Trek show.
They've gone from awesome bad guys to soap opera baddies.

[Ameriganastan]

Introducing Control as a precursor to the Borg would be pretty far from caring about continuity, considering what we know about the borg already.

Also, please don't bring back the Borg again.
I'm so fucking sick of the Borg being brought in as the big bad in every single Trek show.
They've gone from awesome bad guys to soap opera baddies.

Yeah. They were never the same intimidating force after Voyager got its hands on them.

[Juristonia]

It's kinda like how they keep ruining horror icons by giving them origin stories.
They're more effective when you don't know too much about them.


Maybe we'll get a Borg origin story about a teenage computer being picked on in computer summer camp someday.