Scifi TV Discussion Thread

[New haven america]

No, he ended up being the emissary.

Still doesn't change the fact that he sucked at diplomacy and nearly ended up destroying the station, could never let go of a grudge until it was too late, couldn't let go of anything really, had to watch his wife and son die right in front of him, got to learn that his entire life was a lie, need I go on?

Wait when did Jake die? Aside from that alternate timeline episode when he killed himself to break Sisko out of the negative space wedgie of the week?

That alternate timeline episode is called The Visitor and it's one of the best ST episode ever made.

Anyway, yep, that's the one. Imagine being a parent and wanting what's best for your child, only to learn that they basically gave up on half their life and passions to help you, with you being the ultimate cause of their suicidal death. Sounds fun, right?

[Crysuko]

Wait when did Jake die? Aside from that alternate timeline episode when he killed himself to break Sisko out of the negative space wedgie of the week?

That alternate timeline episode is called The Visitor and it's one of the best ST episode ever made.

Anyway, yep, that's the one. Imagine being a parent and wanting what's best for your child, only to learn that they basically gave up on half their life and passions to help you, with you being the ultimate cause of their suicidal death. Sounds fun, right?

in all honesty, I legit shed a tear at that episode. And everyone called me heartless when I said The Inner Light was an overly sappy drag of an episode.

[The Huskar Social Union]

The only thing to remember about Sisko are the SEN SOR READINGS

[Crysuko]

The only thing to remember about Sisko are the SEN SOR READINGS

I always liked how Avery Brooks when full ham during anger scenes

[Tarsonis]

The only thing to remember about Sisko are the SEN SOR READINGS

How about the time he irradiated a planet just to prove a point?

[Ameriganastan]

The only thing to remember about Sisko are the SEN SOR READINGS

How about the time he irradiated a planet just to prove a point?

Yeah, after a wackadoo traitor was doing the same to Cardassian planets.

[Tarsonis]

How about the time he irradiated a planet just to prove a point?

Yeah, after a wackadoo traitor was doing the same to Cardassian planets.

I know. It was awesome.

[Ameriganastan]

Yeah, after a wackadoo traitor was doing the same to Cardassian planets.

I know. It was awesome.

...Oh. I thought you were using him irradiating the Maquis planet as a criticism.

Never mind.

[Tarsonis]

I know. It was awesome.

...Oh. I thought you were using him irradiating the Maquis planet as a criticism.

Never mind.

Maybe I misread the conversation.

[NERVUN]

... *coughs*everyothersinglecharacterinTrek*coughs*

Yeah, like Data, who was ultra-intelligent and strong and advanced and... couldn't feel any emotion or sense whatsoever... Or Riker who was incredibly intelligent and driven while also dealing with long lasting and seemingly never ending trauma due to his childhood and the Pegasus incident, while also being the one who ended up destroying the Enterprise. Or Sisko, a Cmdr. who sucks at diplomacy but who was reluctantly put in charge of a backwater space station that ended up being the focal point of a generation defining war and learning that his entire existence was a lie.

Yep, real bunch of Gary Stews right here.

Oh sweet summer child...
TOS: Every single member of that crew, especially Kirk, had multiple instances of violating orders and regs. In ANY real military, saving the planet or not, they would have been long since tossed. As for knowing better, HOW many times were commodores shown to be bloody idiots and Kirk knew best?

TNG:
Worf Let's kill people! But it's ok, you're Klingon.
Data: Stole the Enterprise
Picard: I'm gonna violate orders! BTW, I DO know better than any admiral in Starfleet
Riker: Hey, mind if I go down and kidnap my girlfriend? Oh, and um, it seems I kinda was involved in a massive violation of Federation Law...
The whole of the crew: Prime Directive? WHAT Prime Directive?

DS9:
Sisko: Pale Moonlight anyone? Murder, cheating, falsification...
Dax: I'm gonna go kill people! It's ok, you were... pretending to be a Klingon?
Odo: Did I mention that I did a number of things that probably were morally questionable when the Cardassians were in charge?
Kira: As a former terrorist, that's ok!
Worf: Do you mind if I kill the leader of the guys fighting the war with us? It's ok, you're Klingon.

Voy: The whole damn ship: Prime Directive? WHAT Prime Directive?

Ent: Get's a wee bit of a pass due to not having a Federation.

The truth of the matter is simply that every single instance of Trek has ALWAYS had its characters disobeying orders for dramatic reasons. It's a TV show! It has to have drama!So grumping about Michael is missing the mark. Same with her being intelligent. All Trek shows have shown the brass to be a group of people that can't pour water out of their boots with instructions on the heels. THAT'S been a trope since Season 1 TOS.

As for a Mary Sue, hardly. But if you want one... I give you Wesley Crusher... named after Gene Roddenberry.

[Ameriganastan]

I actually did like how Into Darkness showed that Kirk's command style would get his ass demoted right quickly.

[Crysuko]

Yeah, like Data, who was ultra-intelligent and strong and advanced and... couldn't feel any emotion or sense whatsoever... Or Riker who was incredibly intelligent and driven while also dealing with long lasting and seemingly never ending trauma due to his childhood and the Pegasus incident, while also being the one who ended up destroying the Enterprise. Or Sisko, a Cmdr. who sucks at diplomacy but who was reluctantly put in charge of a backwater space station that ended up being the focal point of a generation defining war and learning that his entire existence was a lie.

Yep, real bunch of Gary Stews right here.

Oh sweet summer child...
TOS: Every single member of that crew, especially Kirk, had multiple instances of violating orders and regs. In ANY real military, saving the planet or not, they would have been long since tossed. As for knowing better, HOW many times were commodores shown to be bloody idiots and Kirk knew best?

TNG:
Worf Let's kill people! But it's ok, you're Klingon.
Data: Stole the Enterprise
Picard: I'm gonna violate orders! BTW, I DO know better than any admiral in Starfleet
Riker: Hey, mind if I go down and kidnap my girlfriend? Oh, and um, it seems I kinda was involved in a massive violation of Federation Law...
The whole of the crew: Prime Directive? WHAT Prime Directive?

DS9:
Sisko: Pale Moonlight anyone? Murder, cheating, falsification...
Dax: I'm gonna go kill people! It's ok, you were... pretending to be a Klingon?
Odo: Did I mention that I did a number of things that probably were morally questionable when the Cardassians were in charge?
Kira: As a former terrorist, that's ok!
Worf: Do you mind if I kill the leader of the guys fighting the war with us? It's ok, you're Klingon.

Voy: The whole damn ship: Prime Directive? WHAT Prime Directive?

Ent: Get's a wee bit of a pass due to not having a Federation.

The truth of the matter is simply that every single instance of Trek has ALWAYS had its characters disobeying orders for dramatic reasons. It's a TV show! It has to have drama!So grumping about Michael is missing the mark. Same with her being intelligent. All Trek shows have shown the brass to be a group of people that can't pour water out of their boots with instructions on the heels. THAT'S been a trope since Season 1 TOS.

As for a Mary Sue, hardly. But if you want one... I give you Wesley Crusher... named after Gene Roddenberry.

Some objections.

Worf spent most of his time being snubbed and told no
Data was later killed
Picard violated orders to help save an entire race from the Son'a
Riker was fully aware it was a cover up and it burned him up inside every day of his life
ITPM was a classic case of "the ends justify the means", intended to show that in war, the "good guys" often end up doing reprehensible things as well
Dax killed a bunch of goons in pursuit of a criminal
Odo spent every waking moment silently hating himself for the things he did for the Cardassians, and made earnest efforts to repent
Kira was a freedom fighter, the show makes no bones about how brutal the occupation was

I'm not defending Voyager, have at it.

[Tarsonis]

Oh sweet summer child...
TOS: Every single member of that crew, especially Kirk, had multiple instances of violating orders and regs. In ANY real military, saving the planet or not, they would have been long since tossed. As for knowing better, HOW many times were commodores shown to be bloody idiots and Kirk knew best?

TNG:
Worf Let's kill people! But it's ok, you're Klingon.
Data: Stole the Enterprise
Picard: I'm gonna violate orders! BTW, I DO know better than any admiral in Starfleet
Riker: Hey, mind if I go down and kidnap my girlfriend? Oh, and um, it seems I kinda was involved in a massive violation of Federation Law...
The whole of the crew: Prime Directive? WHAT Prime Directive?

DS9:
Sisko: Pale Moonlight anyone? Murder, cheating, falsification...
Dax: I'm gonna go kill people! It's ok, you were... pretending to be a Klingon?
Odo: Did I mention that I did a number of things that probably were morally questionable when the Cardassians were in charge?
Kira: As a former terrorist, that's ok!
Worf: Do you mind if I kill the leader of the guys fighting the war with us? It's ok, you're Klingon.

Voy: The whole damn ship: Prime Directive? WHAT Prime Directive?

Ent: Get's a wee bit of a pass due to not having a Federation.

The truth of the matter is simply that every single instance of Trek has ALWAYS had its characters disobeying orders for dramatic reasons. It's a TV show! It has to have drama!So grumping about Michael is missing the mark. Same with her being intelligent. All Trek shows have shown the brass to be a group of people that can't pour water out of their boots with instructions on the heels. THAT'S been a trope since Season 1 TOS.

As for a Mary Sue, hardly. But if you want one... I give you Wesley Crusher... named after Gene Roddenberry.

Some objections.

Worf spent most of his time being snubbed and told no
Data was later killed
Picard violated orders to help save an entire race from the Son'a
Riker was fully aware it was a cover up and it burned him up inside every day of his life
ITPM was a classic case of "the ends justify the means", intended to show that in war, the "good guys" often end up doing reprehensible things as well
Dax killed a bunch of goons in pursuit of a criminal
Odo spent every waking moment silently hating himself for the things he did for the Cardassians, and made earnest efforts to repent
Kira was a freedom fighter, the show makes no bones about how brutal the occupation was

I'm not defending Voyager, have at it.

In the Pale Moon Light, aka The greatest episode of Start Trek ever, wasn't just see the good guys do reprehensible things, it was about weighing the cost, when is it worth it to betray everything you believe in for the greater good, is it ever acceptable. Even at the end, Sisko doesn't try to pretend that what he did was right, justified or good, he simply says "I can live it with it." He acknowledges that what he did was wrong, and but for him the outcome was worth it. To him the out come made it worth sacrificing everything he believed in, and for him that was enough.

[Bralia]

Data: Stole the Enterprise

To be quite fair, it wasn't really Data's choice. He was compromised by a "recall" device. And the reason behind his recall died soon after, so there really wouldn't be any need to kick him out over it.

[Tarsonis]

Data: Stole the Enterprise

To be quite fair, it wasn't really Data's choice. He was compromised by a "recall" device. And the reason behind his recall died soon after, so there really wouldn't be any need to kick him out over it.

Barclay had the same issue

[Vassenor]

So what was the ends justifying the means in For the Uniform?

[Crysuko]

So what was the ends justifying the means in For the Uniform?

it just seemed to be one long "fuck you, your associates and everything you stand for" pointed squarely at Eddington. In fairness, his smugness really got on my nerves and it was cathartic to see him get taken down a few pegs. You can tell he was portrayed by a competent actor, by the way his face falls when the trilithium torpedos are actually fired.

[Tarsonis]

So what was the ends justifying the means in For the Uniform?

Really he didn't do anything wrong, he just balanced the scales. The Maquis had poisoned a Cardassian world making it uninhabitable to Cardassians. Sisko made a Maquis world uninhabitable to the Maki. So they switched planets. The balance of power didn't shift, nobody came out a head, except for Sisko who caught a rogue agent, and all their biogenic weapons. Really I can't see that Sisko did anything bad beyond generally you shouldn't irradiate planets.

[Crysuko]

So what was the ends justifying the means in For the Uniform?

Really he didn't do anything wrong, he just balanced the scales. The Maquis had poisoned a Cardassian world making it uninhabitable to Cardassians. Sisko made a Maquis world uninhabitable to the Maquis. So they switched planets. The balance of power didn't shift, nobody came out a head, except for Sisko who caught a rogue agent, and all their biogenic weapons. Really I can't see that Sisko did anything bad beyond generally you shouldn't irradiate planets.

ftfy

[Tarsonis]

Really he didn't do anything wrong, he just balanced the scales. The Maquis had poisoned a Cardassian world making it uninhabitable to Cardassians. Sisko made a Maquis world uninhabitable to the Maquis. So they switched planets. The balance of power didn't shift, nobody came out a head, except for Sisko who caught a rogue agent, and all their biogenic weapons. Really I can't see that Sisko did anything bad beyond generally you shouldn't irradiate planets.

ftfy

ah yeah its been a minute

[Vassenor]

So what was the ends justifying the means in For the Uniform?

Really he didn't do anything wrong, he just balanced the scales. The Maquis had poisoned a Cardassian world making it uninhabitable to Cardassians. Sisko made a Maquis world uninhabitable to the Maki. So they switched planets. The balance of power didn't shift, nobody came out a head, except for Sisko who caught a rogue agent, and all their biogenic weapons. Really I can't see that Sisko did anything bad beyond generally you shouldn't irradiate planets.

An eye for an eye does not excuse war crimes.

[Tarsonis]

Really he didn't do anything wrong, he just balanced the scales. The Maquis had poisoned a Cardassian world making it uninhabitable to Cardassians. Sisko made a Maquis world uninhabitable to the Maki. So they switched planets. The balance of power didn't shift, nobody came out a head, except for Sisko who caught a rogue agent, and all their biogenic weapons. Really I can't see that Sisko did anything bad beyond generally you shouldn't irradiate planets.

An eye for an eye does not excuse war crimes.

What war crime?

[The Huskar Social Union]

Leeland is the cyborg borg not borg bad mans.

Fuck that looked horrible, bit of a dickhead but i change my mind that was a horrible death. Ughhhhh

Decent episode overall, i liked it.

Really liked the scenes with Michaels Mom, they were obviously the main focus but i thought they were quite well done, very emotional.

[New haven america]

Yeah, like Data, who was ultra-intelligent and strong and advanced and... couldn't feel any emotion or sense whatsoever... Or Riker who was incredibly intelligent and driven while also dealing with long lasting and seemingly never ending trauma due to his childhood and the Pegasus incident, while also being the one who ended up destroying the Enterprise. Or Sisko, a Cmdr. who sucks at diplomacy but who was reluctantly put in charge of a backwater space station that ended up being the focal point of a generation defining war and learning that his entire existence was a lie.

Yep, real bunch of Gary Stews right here.

Oh sweet summer child...
TOS: Every single member of that crew, especially Kirk, had multiple instances of violating orders and regs. In ANY real military, saving the planet or not, they would have been long since tossed. As for knowing better, HOW many times were commodores shown to be bloody idiots and Kirk knew best?

TNG:
Worf Let's kill people! But it's ok, you're Klingon.
Data: Stole the Enterprise
Picard: I'm gonna violate orders! BTW, I DO know better than any admiral in Starfleet
Riker: Hey, mind if I go down and kidnap my girlfriend? Oh, and um, it seems I kinda was involved in a massive violation of Federation Law...
The whole of the crew: Prime Directive? WHAT Prime Directive?

DS9:
Sisko: Pale Moonlight anyone? Murder, cheating, falsification...
Dax: I'm gonna go kill people! It's ok, you were... pretending to be a Klingon?
Odo: Did I mention that I did a number of things that probably were morally questionable when the Cardassians were in charge?
Kira: As a former terrorist, that's ok!
Worf: Do you mind if I kill the leader of the guys fighting the war with us? It's ok, you're Klingon.

Voy: The whole damn ship: Prime Directive? WHAT Prime Directive?

Ent: Get's a wee bit of a pass due to not having a Federation.

The truth of the matter is simply that every single instance of Trek has ALWAYS had its characters disobeying orders for dramatic reasons. It's a TV show! It has to have drama!So grumping about Michael is missing the mark. Same with her being intelligent. All Trek shows have shown the brass to be a group of people that can't pour water out of their boots with instructions on the heels. THAT'S been a trope since Season 1 TOS.

As for a Mary Sue, hardly. But if you want one... I give you Wesley Crusher... named after Gene Roddenberry.

Well, congrats on ignoring my post, especially for the bits of characters I already mentioned.

TOS-Well of course, it was mostly badly written, much like STD

TNG-Worf: Worf gets told no at almost every instance he brings up an idea
Data: So did Barclay, neither had a choice in the matter
Picard: And lives basically his entire life alone and shut off from his friends and family
Riker: Can you please make it less obvious that you just ignored my OP? You're not immune from getting called out for stuff like that.
TBH, the Prime Directive is more like the Prime Suggestion

DS9-Sisko: And you notice that he pretty much hates himself for the shit he had to do in the episode, right? Unlike Michael whose only real regret is that she didn't keep the Captain in a more secure area during her mutiny
Dax: Which Dax? There ~10 individuals who share that name.
Odo: Yeah, and that was a massive morality problem for him. You could say it was part of his entire character arc or something...
Kira: One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter
Worf: Totally in the right in that case. Honestly, Gowron should've been killed sooner.

Voy: Mostly badly written

Ent: Oh please, for the first 2 season the crew of Enterprise were idiots. They got better in seasons 3 and 4, but in 1 and 2 they were dumb, all of them.

You're missing the point though, in almost every instant the characters broke protocol or regulations they had to either deal with the consequences or look into the moral ambiguity of their actions. Michael never has such a thing happen to her, she holds that she was in the right the entire time.

[New haven america]

Oh sweet summer child...
TOS: Every single member of that crew, especially Kirk, had multiple instances of violating orders and regs. In ANY real military, saving the planet or not, they would have been long since tossed. As for knowing better, HOW many times were commodores shown to be bloody idiots and Kirk knew best?

TNG:
Worf Let's kill people! But it's ok, you're Klingon.
Data: Stole the Enterprise
Picard: I'm gonna violate orders! BTW, I DO know better than any admiral in Starfleet
Riker: Hey, mind if I go down and kidnap my girlfriend? Oh, and um, it seems I kinda was involved in a massive violation of Federation Law...
The whole of the crew: Prime Directive? WHAT Prime Directive?

DS9:
Sisko: Pale Moonlight anyone? Murder, cheating, falsification...
Dax: I'm gonna go kill people! It's ok, you were... pretending to be a Klingon?
Odo: Did I mention that I did a number of things that probably were morally questionable when the Cardassians were in charge?
Kira: As a former terrorist, that's ok!
Worf: Do you mind if I kill the leader of the guys fighting the war with us? It's ok, you're Klingon.

Voy: The whole damn ship: Prime Directive? WHAT Prime Directive?

Ent: Get's a wee bit of a pass due to not having a Federation.

The truth of the matter is simply that every single instance of Trek has ALWAYS had its characters disobeying orders for dramatic reasons. It's a TV show! It has to have drama!So grumping about Michael is missing the mark. Same with her being intelligent. All Trek shows have shown the brass to be a group of people that can't pour water out of their boots with instructions on the heels. THAT'S been a trope since Season 1 TOS.

As for a Mary Sue, hardly. But if you want one... I give you Wesley Crusher... named after Gene Roddenberry.

Some objections.

Worf spent most of his time being snubbed and told no
Data was later killed
Picard violated orders to help save an entire race from the Son'a
Riker was fully aware it was a cover up and it burned him up inside every day of his life
ITPM was a classic case of "the ends justify the means", intended to show that in war, the "good guys" often end up doing reprehensible things as well
Dax killed a bunch of goons in pursuit of a criminal
Odo spent every waking moment silently hating himself for the things he did for the Cardassians, and made earnest efforts to repent
Kira was a freedom fighter, the show makes no bones about how brutal the occupation was

I'm not defending Voyager, have at it.

There's actually an entire video compilation of how many times Worf got told no on TNG... it's a lot.

And you don't see him staging a mutiny because Picard wouldn't let him randomly murder any vessel he wants...