Scifi TV Discussion Thread

[Auristania]

Indeed Fed is technologically superior to Humans because Fed has Magic Box, so Fed don't need Stuff. Whereas Modern Humans DO need Stuff.

My whinge is Picard is so Holier than Thou at Banker: Picard asserts that Fed has evolved to be morally superior to Humans.

Q asserts that Q are morally superior to Fed because Q got better tech. Picard disagrees UNTIL Picard speaks to Humans and asserts that Fed superior tech = Fed superior morality.

That's not Picard's argument. He doesn't judge the Banker for the values of the 21st century. He understands why they existed. His point is not that they are morally superior, but that the drive for humanity has evolved, changed.

The Banker explains he pursues material wealth because it gives him power, power to control his life, at least to an extent. Which is true, the wealthy are much less subject to the whims of chance than the impoverished. They can pay for medical services, they will always be able to buy food, lodging etc. The impoverished not so much.

Picard's explanation is not that his world is morally superior, but that in his time such considerations are obsolete. Because they eliminated scarcity, everyone had access to these things, because the market economics that drove human advancement were obsolete. Medicines won't cost people thousands of dollars a year, because 1. There's no money to trade with in the first place. 2. Medicines can be replicated at no cost. and 3. Companies that produce medicines don't rely on investors to leverage millions of dollars in developing such medicines, so pharmaceutical companies don't need to reimburse their investors/shareholders.

If everyone has everything they could ever need, the desire to acquire is obsolete, want is obsolete. There's no desire to acquire a jaguar, when you can press a button and replicate one for free. You don't have to work for it. Such frivalities might be fun for a day, or a week, even a year, especially to people like us who only know scarcity, but to someone who's never known scarcity, its no big deal. If you showed someone from 1900 a cell phone, their brain would snap in half. We take that shit for granted. Something then will have to replace the driving force of human culture.

Star Trek, is Roddenberry's postulation as an answer to that question of, "What happens then." When the Banker asks "Then what's the challenge?" Picard doesn't dismiss him, or rebuke him, he answers him. "The Challenge is to better yourself." Advancement, rather than acquisition will replace the human drive. We can pursuit knowledge purely for advancements sake. I could be getting my graduate degree, not so I can leverage it for a profitable career, but just because I want to learn. My ambitions to learn and discover no longer serve a purpose of making me wealthy, but purely for academic recognition, for the world to learn of my discoveries, for humanity to advance.

You're right. I checked the scene.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQQYbKT_rMg
Picard is not holier than thou at Offenhouse about needing stuff; Picard is merely smug. Neither is Picard holier than thou at Offenhouse about using the communicator; Picard is merely angry.

Picard is holier than thou when Offenhouse asks if you don't want people to use the communicator, why not use an off-switch? (Executive key) That is when Picard explodes, WTF??? Off-switch??? Star Fleet personnel are trained not to use the communicator.

There is a proverb,

Never apply a Star Trek solution to a Babylon 5 problem

https://everything2.com/title/Never+apply+a+Star+Trek+solution+to+a+Babylon+5+problem
An off-switch is a Babylon 5 solution.

Likewise, Picard did NOT blather about Evolution, he said "We've outgrown our infancy." I am so used to Trek getting Evolution wrong (Threshold) that I assumed this was another example.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Neutral_Zone_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation)

Several reviewers re-watched Star Trek: The Next Generation after the end of the series. Keith DeCandido on Tor.com felt that the episode did not really work, saying that the "smug moralizing with regard to the three 20th century refugees is laid on a bit too thick",

[Tarsonis Survivors]

That's not Picard's argument. He doesn't judge the Banker for the values of the 21st century. He understands why they existed. His point is not that they are morally superior, but that the drive for humanity has evolved, changed.

The Banker explains he pursues material wealth because it gives him power, power to control his life, at least to an extent. Which is true, the wealthy are much less subject to the whims of chance than the impoverished. They can pay for medical services, they will always be able to buy food, lodging etc. The impoverished not so much.

Picard's explanation is not that his world is morally superior, but that in his time such considerations are obsolete. Because they eliminated scarcity, everyone had access to these things, because the market economics that drove human advancement were obsolete. Medicines won't cost people thousands of dollars a year, because 1. There's no money to trade with in the first place. 2. Medicines can be replicated at no cost. and 3. Companies that produce medicines don't rely on investors to leverage millions of dollars in developing such medicines, so pharmaceutical companies don't need to reimburse their investors/shareholders.

If everyone has everything they could ever need, the desire to acquire is obsolete, want is obsolete. There's no desire to acquire a jaguar, when you can press a button and replicate one for free. You don't have to work for it. Such frivalities might be fun for a day, or a week, even a year, especially to people like us who only know scarcity, but to someone who's never known scarcity, its no big deal. If you showed someone from 1900 a cell phone, their brain would snap in half. We take that shit for granted. Something then will have to replace the driving force of human culture.

Star Trek, is Roddenberry's postulation as an answer to that question of, "What happens then." When the Banker asks "Then what's the challenge?" Picard doesn't dismiss him, or rebuke him, he answers him. "The Challenge is to better yourself." Advancement, rather than acquisition will replace the human drive. We can pursuit knowledge purely for advancements sake. I could be getting my graduate degree, not so I can leverage it for a profitable career, but just because I want to learn. My ambitions to learn and discover no longer serve a purpose of making me wealthy, but purely for academic recognition, for the world to learn of my discoveries, for humanity to advance.

You're right. I checked the scene.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQQYbKT_rMg
Picard is not holier than thou at Offenhouse about needing stuff; Picard is merely smug. Neither is Picard holier than thou at Offenhouse about using the communicator; Picard is merely angry.

Picard is holier than thou when Offenhouse asks if you don't want people to use the communicator, why not use an off-switch? (Executive key) That is when Picard explodes, WTF??? Off-switch??? Star Fleet personnel are trained not to use the communicator.

And that's a perfectly valid critique. They're Starfleet. Even if they claim to not be a "military", they are military in every form and function except mission statement. They are disciplined and highly trained personnel. By suggesting Picard needed to use an offswitch, Offenhouse suggested they weren't disciplined. Picard was enraged by the man's impudence. This isn't a 24 vs 21 century commentary. Offenhouse refuses to take responsibility or appoligize for something he did wrong and instead blames everyone else for allowing him to do the things he did. It's never his fault. He's a prick.

There is a proverb,

Never apply a Star Trek solution to a Babylon 5 problem

https://everything2.com/title/Never+apply+a+Star+Trek+solution+to+a+Babylon+5+problem
An off-switch is a Babylon 5 solution.

I'm not sure about the broadcast timeline, but that suggests there's an inside joke here.

Likewise, Picard did NOT blather about Evolution, he said "We've outgrown our infancy." I am so used to Trek getting Evolution wrong (Threshold) that I assumed this was another example.

When I say evolution I'm not referring to the Theory of Evolution, in using evolve in its literary definition: change or grow in the direction of progress.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Neutral_Zone_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation)

Several reviewers re-watched Star Trek: The Next Generation after the end of the series. Keith DeCandido on Tor.com felt that the episode did not really work, saying that the "smug moralizing with regard to the three 20th century refugees is laid on a bit too thick",

They can think what they want but I'd assert they're making the same mistake you are, interpreting every criticism as a 24th century vs 21sr century existential debate.

[Auristania]

1) And that's a perfectly valid critique. They're Starfleet. Even if they claim to not be a "military", they are military in every form and function except mission statement. They are disciplined and highly trained personnel.
2) By suggesting Picard needed to use an offswitch, Offenhouse suggested they weren't disciplined. Picard was enraged by the man's impudence.
3) This isn't a 24 vs 21 century commentary.
4) Offenhouse refuses to take responsibility or appoligize for something he did wrong and instead blames everyone else for allowing him to do the things he did. It's never his fault.
5) He's a prick.
6) I'm not sure about the broadcast timeline, but that suggests there's an inside joke here.
7) When I say evolution I'm not referring to the Theory of Evolution, in using evolve in its literary definition: change or grow in the direction of progress.
They can think what they want but I'd assert they're making the same mistake you are, interpreting every criticism as a 24th century vs 21sr century existential debate.

2) How could Offenhouse know all these new rules? Offenhouse only discovered the rule versus using communicator when Picard yelled at him. Likewise, Wesley only learnt the rule versus playing ball in the FORBIDDEN ZONE tm when Police wanted to execute him.

5) Indeed, he is a prick. He is a banker, he is an enemy of the people, string him up. it's the only language he understands. Likewise, I would have been happy if the Aryans had hanged Wesley. The point is Justice must be done and must be seen to be done.

Offenhouse, Wesley and Socrates deserve to hang. But stitching them up on fake crimes ain't as good as convicting them of the real crimes they actually done.

Starfleet personnel are trained not to use the communicator. Enterprise has often carried Civilian passengers, but this is the first time EVAH that Civilians have used communicator???

Again I cite the Aryans wanting to execute Wesley. Nobody told Wesley the rule versus playing ball and nobody told Offenhouse the rule versus communicator.

6) NASA proverb: never use a Star Trek to solve a Babylon 5 problem.

They think what they want. There are some Gene's vision Tropes that I loathe, I assumed that this particular episode was guilty of those tropes until I checked. Those other critics have not checked yet

[Tarsonis Survivors]

2) How could Offenhouse know all these new rules? Offenhouse only discovered the rule versus using communicator when Picard yelled at him. Likewise, Wesley only learnt the rule versus playing ball in the FORBIDDEN ZONE tm when Police wanted to execute him.

Completely irrelevant.

5) Indeed, he is a prick. He is a banker, he is an enemy of the people, string him up. it's the only language he understands. Likewise, I would have been happy if the Aryans had hanged Wesley. The point is Justice must be done and must be seen to be done.

Offenhouse, Wesley and Socrates deserve to hang. But stitching them up on fake crimes ain't as good as convicting them of the real crimes they actually done.

The hell? You've gone off the edge of the map.

Star fleet personnel are trained not to use the communicator. Enterprise has often carried Civilian passengers, but this is the first time EVAH that Civilians have used communicator???

Needlessly. They're trained not to use it needlessy. Civilians are transported on the Enterprise sure enough, but they're usually A. professionals, familiar with Starfleet Protocal, B. Dignitaries who have handlers. Or C. People who were scheduled to be transported and are likely briefed ahead of time on proper protocal.

This is not the case, these people are essentially reanimated corpses, who are completely out of their time, incredibly anxious and disoriented. They're, for lack of a better discription, refugeees from the 21st century.

Again I cite the Aryans wanting to execute Wesley. Nobody told Wesley the rule versus playing ball and nobody told Offenhouse the rule versus communicator.

You're citing nothing of relevance. Very likely he was briefed on the communicator, but probably didn't listen.

6) NASA proverb: never use a Star Trek to solve a Babylon 5 problem.

They think what they want. There are some Gene's vision Tropes that I loathe, I assumed that this particular episode was guilty of those tropes until I checked. Those other critics have not checked yet

Whatever

[Auristania]

Needlessly. They're trained not to use it needlessy. Civilians are transported on the Enterprise sure enough, but they're usually A. professionals, familiar with Starfleet Protocal, B. Dignitaries who have handlers. Or C. People who were scheduled to be transported and are likely briefed ahead of time on proper protocal.

This is not the case, these people are essentially reanimated corpses, who are completely out of their time, incredibly anxious and disoriented. They're, for lack of a better discription, refugeees from the 21st century.

Banker broke the communicator rule that no-one told him is exactly the same as Wesley broke the ball-game rule that no-one told him.

Terrified refugees, therefore bigger priorities than preaching the thou shalt not communicate rule. In that case, why is Picard angry at Banker for communicating? Irritated that the Welcoming Comite had bigger priorities makes sense, but why anger?

Reanimated corpses = Zombies = NOT saved. Popsicles were indeed rescued and became living people. Measure of a Man. Author, Author and Lal prove that Data, EmH and Data's daughter aint zombies, they are real people with all the rights and duties of Free born Citizens.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Needlessly. They're trained not to use it needlessy. Civilians are transported on the Enterprise sure enough, but they're usually A. professionals, familiar with Starfleet Protocal, B. Dignitaries who have handlers. Or C. People who were scheduled to be transported and are likely briefed ahead of time on proper protocal.

This is not the case, these people are essentially reanimated corpses, who are completely out of their time, incredibly anxious and disoriented. They're, for lack of a better discription, refugeees from the 21st century.

Banker broke the communicator rule that no-one told him is exactly the same as Wesley broke the ball-game rule that no-one told him.

Conflating two situations. Being sentenced to death for not knowing the rules is a big difference than simply being yelled at. Stop taking nonsense.

Terrified refugees, therefore bigger priorities than preaching the thou shalt not communicate rule. In that case, why is Picard angry at Banker for communicating? Irritated that the Welcoming Comite had bigger priorities makes sense, but why anger?

Because the banker is being impudent, and distrupting an already intense situation with the Romulans. "Anger" is probably the wrong word. He's annoyed by their actions and then further annoyed by their impudence when corrected. It's after he informs/reminds them that the panels are off limits he becomes irate, not that they used them but at Offenhouse's attitude.

Reanimated corpses = Zombies = NOT saved. Popsicles were indeed rescued and became living people. Measure of a Man. Author, Author and Lal prove that Data, EmH and Data's daughter aint zombies, they are real people with all the rights and duties of Free born Citizens.

I said essentially. They basically are zombies, they were, for all intents and purposes dead, and we're resurrected. Your focusing on nonsense kid, let it go.

Your ramblings and ravings over this issue are ridiculous and pointless. I'm about done with it.

[New haven america]

*Peaks in*

Is it safe to come back now?

[Ameriganastan]

*Peaks in*

Is it safe to come back now?

Seems that way.

[New haven america]

*Peaks in*

Is it safe to come back now?

Seems that way.

Good.

I bring info: STD won't be premiering anytime soon.

[Ameriganastan]

Seems that way.

Good.

I bring info: STD won't be premiering anytime soon.

This show is going to bomb like Hiroshima at this rate.

[New haven america]

Good.

I bring info: STD won't be premiering anytime soon.

This show is going to bomb like Hiroshima at this rate.

At least Hiroshima had a purpose.

STD is just retreading ground we've already known about.

[New haven america]

You know, I think Transfigurations (TNG S3 ep25) is honestly pretty underrated.

[Ameriganastan]

You know, I think Transfigurations (TNG S3 ep25) is honestly pretty underrated.

It's great until the end. When the pinnacle of species evolution is a dude in a gold zentai suit.

[New haven america]

You know, I think Transfigurations (TNG S3 ep25) is honestly pretty underrated.

It's great until the end. When the pinnacle of species evolution is a dude in a gold zentai suit.

That's the only part I find weird, but that's what 80's tv special effects will get you.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

You know, I think Transfigurations (TNG S3 ep25) is honestly pretty underrated.

It's great until the end. When the pinnacle of species evolution is a dude in a gold zentai suit.

So these people?

[Ameriganastan]

One, please spoiler that giant ass picture. Damn.

Second, no. That's a movie grade makeup job. This was just late 80's special effects.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

One, please spoiler that giant ass picture. Damn.

Second, no. That's a movie grade makeup job. This was just late 80's special effects.

I know, but this is probably what they should have looked like

[Auristania]

Seems that way.

Good.

I bring info: STD won't be premiering anytime soon.

Yes it is safe. I checked Memory Alpha and SF debris for "Transfigurations" I thought I had seen all of STNG, but this one, I aint ever seen, so beyond my standard whinge at ascending into an energy being ...

[Gristol-Serkonos]

Deanna Troi or any of the Enterprise-E flight controllers.... where are they at?

[Brusia]

Well, seems like it's been awhile since our last list question, so who would you all say is your favorite character (or characters if you can't choose just one) from the different series that you've seen? Mine would probably be:

ENT: Shran or Dr. Phlox

TOS: Spock

TNG: Captain Picard

DS9: Garak

VOY: Seven of Nine

[New haven america]

Well, seems like it's been awhile since our last list question, so who would you all say is your favorite character (or characters if you can't choose just one) from the different series that you've seen? Mine would probably be:

ENT: Shran or Dr. Phlox

TOS: Spock

TNG: Captain Picard

DS9: Garak

VOY: Seven of Nine

ENT: Shran or Trip
TOS: Bones
TNG: Picard
DS9: Jadzia
VOY: Paris or Tuvok or The Doctor

[Ameriganastan]

TOS: Bones

TNG: Picard

DS9: Quark

VOY: Whichever alien made them miserable that episode.

[Maichuko]

TOS: Spock
TNG: Picard and Data
DS9: Garak and Quark
VOY: The Doctor and Tuvok
ENT: Porthos and Phlox

[Wallenburg]

TNG: Data/Picard
DS9: Plain, simple Garak
VOY: EMH

I haven't watched enough of TOS or ENT to give a fair assessment of the characters.

[Maichuko]

I stopped by my local comic book shop for Free comic day and got a TNG comic set in the mirror universe called Mirror Broken Now I want to buy future issues.

It looks by the TNG era all that was left of the Terran Empire is the Sol System, Vulcan and a few others to heavily fortified for the Klingon-Cardassian Alliance to conquer