Scifi TV Discussion Thread

[Ameriganastan]

If Discovery is as much of a shart as it looks to be, you think it'll take ENT's place as the proverbial bottom of the totem pole?

I actually think Discovery's looking pretty cool from the recent production video. And for me, DS9 is the bottom of the totem pole.

Thems fighting words, son...

[Andonisya]

Is a Post-Scarcity Society possible?

[Ameriganastan]

Is a Post-Scarcity Society possible?

Uh...do what now?

[Andonisya]

Is a Post-Scarcity Society possible?

Uh...do what now?

Alternate wording is Fully Autonomated Luxury Communism

[Auristania]

Uh...do what now?

Alternate wording is Fully Autonomated Luxury Communism

Exactly and perfectly true. But to make it fit the thread, alternate wording is Federation "Economy" as preached in the shows.

If everybody had a replicator and a holodeck, then they would have all the food and clothes and books and toys and music that they need.

It's Economy Jim, but not as we know it. Classic economy is the allocation of LIMITED resources.

You can believe in Faster than Light travel, phaser guns and sentient AI, but abolishing poverty??? Naaah, that's just Science Fiction.

Most of Sun's energy is wasted and flies off into empty space.
Humans could send solar energy panels to orbit the Sun and we would have virtually infinite energy. But we can't. Such a project would cost a banker's bonus.

Abolishing poverty is possible technically, but impossible politically. It has the word Communism in it.

[Ameriganastan]

What the holy Hell are you two talking about?

[Canton Empire]

What the holy Hell are you two talking about?

I think they are debating if the Federation's society is possible

[New Roma Republic]

What the holy Hell are you two talking about?

I think they are debating if the Federation's society is possible

Yeah. By TNG, the UFP's economy can be described as "Post Scarcity" since they have replicators available to everyone to use. As for its possibility...not a chance with current technology and human nature.

[Ameriganastan]

What the holy Hell are you two talking about?

I think they are debating if the Federation's society is possible

Oh! Why didn't they just say that in the first place.

No, it's not. The entire utopia concept is an unattainable farce.

[New haven america]

Is a Post-Scarcity Society possible?

Uh...do what now?

Basically the society of the Federation (Earth specifically).

No war, no poverty, almost no disease, total equality, all needs are met, etc...

If we had mass produced replicators (Like they do in ST), it could totally be possible, but without them, that would make things much more difficult.

[Ameriganastan]

Replicators would just exacerbate existing problems. Big business could use them to manufacture cheap, inefficient parts more than usual. Criminals could use them to mass produce gun and drugs. People could use them to extort control over countries with food shortages, etc.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Replicators would just exacerbate existing problems. Big business could use them to manufacture cheap, inefficient parts more than usual. Criminals could use them to mass produce gun and drugs. People could use them to extort control over countries with food shortages, etc.

The theory, stemming from liberal philosophies of crime and nature, postulize that all such calamities stem from scarcity. If scarcity is eliminated conflict and from that measure economics would cease to exist.

There wouldn't even food shortages, because there would be no scarcity. Criminal cartels wouldn't be irrelevant because there's no profit to be gained. Why rob people if you can litterally make what ever you want? There's be no "big businesses" because there's no point in pursuing profit as profit merits you nothing.

The entire human consciousness would fracture, with survival and acquisition being outdated concepts, this is why the idea of humanity "working to better one's self" has replaced these concepts in ST. Humanity needs a new driving force to keep us from all sitting around eating replicated cheetos all day.

[Ameriganastan]

Replicators would just exacerbate existing problems. Big business could use them to manufacture cheap, inefficient parts more than usual. Criminals could use them to mass produce gun and drugs. People could use them to extort control over countries with food shortages, etc.

The theory, stemming from liberal philosophies of crime and nature, postulize that all such calamities stem from scarcity. If scarcity is eliminated conflict and from that measure economics would cease to exist.

There wouldn't even food shortages, because there would be no scarcity. Criminal cartels wouldn't be irrelevant because there's no profit to be gained. Why rob people if you can litterally make what ever you want? There's be no "big businesses" because there's no point in pursuing profit as profit merits you nothing.

The entire human consciousness would fracture, with survival and acquisition being outdated concepts, this is why the idea of humanity "working to better one's self" has replaced these concepts in ST. Humanity needs a new driving force to keep us from all sitting around eating replicated cheetos all day.

Except humanity as a whole is driven by its baser desires. Take the Holo-Deck for example. You think if that thing existed, people would use it to play Three Musketeers and then go to work? Hell no. They'd bone holograms all day, and not even bother to work, cause it could fulfill their every desire.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

The theory, stemming from liberal philosophies of crime and nature, postulize that all such calamities stem from scarcity. If scarcity is eliminated conflict and from that measure economics would cease to exist.

There wouldn't even food shortages, because there would be no scarcity. Criminal cartels wouldn't be irrelevant because there's no profit to be gained. Why rob people if you can litterally make what ever you want? There's be no "big businesses" because there's no point in pursuing profit as profit merits you nothing.

The entire human consciousness would fracture, with survival and acquisition being outdated concepts, this is why the idea of humanity "working to better one's self" has replaced these concepts in ST. Humanity needs a new driving force to keep us from all sitting around eating replicated cheetos all day.

Except humanity as a whole is driven by its baser desires. Take the Holo-Deck for example. You think if that thing existed, people would use it to play Three Musketeers and then go to work? Hell no. They'd bone holograms all day, and not even bother to work, cause it could fulfill their every desire.

It's actually quite debatable how much a human is ruled by his baser instincts vs his mental cognition. There's thousands of years of philosophy, both religious and secular on the subject. Asceticism/discipline is a component of virtually every religion humanity has practiced.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Except humanity as a whole is driven by its baser desires. Take the Holo-Deck for example. You think if that thing existed, people would use it to play Three Musketeers and then go to work? Hell no. They'd bone holograms all day, and not even bother to work, cause it could fulfill their every desire.

It's actually quite debatable how much a human is ruled by his baser instincts vs his mental cognition. There's thousands of years of philosophy, both religious and secular on the subject. Asceticism/discipline is a component of virtually every religion humanity has practiced.

It should also be mentioned that ST in all it's iterations explores this very concept of how "pure" can society really be. With Amanda Rogers and Reginold Barklay, they explore the idea of fictionalized vs real relationships and interaction. In ENT with the Humanity First group they explore how the transition is not a smooth or easy one. In DS9 they explore what happens if such
a society is threatened, if those conquered instincts like survival are credibly provoked again.


Hell the entire Vulcan species is a lense of what humanity could accomplish without enotional or baser instincts.

[Ameriganastan]

It's actually quite debatable how much a human is ruled by his baser instincts vs his mental cognition. There's thousands of years of philosophy, both religious and secular on the subject. Asceticism/discipline is a component of virtually every religion humanity has practiced.

It should also be mentioned that ST in all it's iterations explores this very concept of how "pure" can society really be. With Amanda Rogers and Reginold Barklay, they explore the idea of fictionalized vs real relationships and interaction. In ENT with the Humanity First group they explore how the transition is not a smooth or easy one. In DS9 they explore what happens if such
a society is threatened, if those conquered instincts like survival are credibly provoked again.


Hell the entire Vulcan species is a lense of what humanity could accomplish without enotional or baser instincts.

Except the Vulcans suppression of their emotions has been displayed to be harmful quite a few times. Pon-Far, that mental degradation disease Sarek caught, that one torture bit from I think Enterprise, when 2009 Spock beat Kirk's ass like a rented mule. They aren't without it, they just suppress it. Which makes any slip up of said repression usually very violent.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

It should also be mentioned that ST in all it's iterations explores this very concept of how "pure" can society really be. With Amanda Rogers and Reginold Barklay, they explore the idea of fictionalized vs real relationships and interaction. In ENT with the Humanity First group they explore how the transition is not a smooth or easy one. In DS9 they explore what happens if such
a society is threatened, if those conquered instincts like survival are credibly provoked again.


Hell the entire Vulcan species is a lense of what humanity could accomplish without enotional or baser instincts.

Except the Vulcans suppression of their emotions has been displayed to be harmful quite a few times. Pon-Far, that mental degradation disease Sarek caught, that one torture bit from I think Enterprise, when 2009 Spock beat Kirk's ass like a rented mule. They aren't without it, they just suppress it. Which makes any slip up of said repression usually very violent.

Yes because good writers took over from Roddenberry, in TOS the Vulcans weren't that fleshed out. However it should also be noted that Pon-Far, is more like going into heat, and somewhat easily remedied. Pa' nar is caused by improper application of mind meld, and can be cured through further meld.

And Spock is half human, his control has always been lesser than his full blooded brethren.

It's a mistake to assert these as proof as some sort of tradeoff for suppression of emotion

[New haven america]

It should also be mentioned that ST in all it's iterations explores this very concept of how "pure" can society really be. With Amanda Rogers and Reginold Barklay, they explore the idea of fictionalized vs real relationships and interaction. In ENT with the Humanity First group they explore how the transition is not a smooth or easy one. In DS9 they explore what happens if such
a society is threatened, if those conquered instincts like survival are credibly provoked again.


Hell the entire Vulcan species is a lense of what humanity could accomplish without enotional or baser instincts.

Except the Vulcans suppression of their emotions has been displayed to be harmful quite a few times. Pon-Far, that mental degradation disease Sarek caught, that one torture bit from I think Enterprise, when 2009 Spock beat Kirk's ass like a rented mule. They aren't without it, they just suppress it. Which makes any slip up of said repression usually very violent.

Pon-far is actually a natural cycle/bodily function, the closest thing IRL it can be compared to is going into heat. So no, it's not a slip up, it's a natural part of Vulcan (And presumably Romulan) physiology.

Also, Spock's only half Vulcan, so his control is actually less than most other Vulcans (Like Tuvok, T'pal, Soval, etc...), this can be seen with older Prime Spock, who instead of using just logic, has found a middle ground between emotions and logic.

[New haven america]

Replicators would just exacerbate existing problems. Big business could use them to manufacture cheap, inefficient parts more than usual. Criminals could use them to mass produce gun and drugs. People could use them to extort control over countries with food shortages, etc.

But what if everyone had one?

[Ameriganastan]

Replicators would just exacerbate existing problems. Big business could use them to manufacture cheap, inefficient parts more than usual. Criminals could use them to mass produce gun and drugs. People could use them to extort control over countries with food shortages, etc.

But what if everyone had one?

You really think the person who cracks replicator technology would make it commercially accessible? It'd be a commodity for the rich.

[New haven america]

But what if everyone had one?

You really think the person who cracks replicator technology would make it commercially accessible? It'd be a commodity for the rich.

You do realize that replicators are capable of replicating themselves, right?

Sure for a limited time, it would be a commodity for the rich, however, someone will find one, replicate one, and then spread it around, and there's nothing that could be done to stop the spread.

Also, you're thinking in a more capitalistic mindset, when post-scarcity societies are mostly socialist, so yeah... (And most democratic socialist/social democracy countries are actually doing incredibly well for themselves IRL)

[Tarsonis Survivors]

You really think the person who cracks replicator technology would make it commercially accessible? It'd be a commodity for the rich.

You do realize that replicators are capable of replicating themselves, right?

Sure for a limited time, it would be a commodity for the rich, however, someone will find one, replicate one, and then spread it around, and there's nothing that could be done to stop the spread.

Also, you're thinking in a more capitalistic mindset, when post-scarcity societies are mostly socialist, so yeah... (And most democratic socialist/social democracy countries are actually doing incredibly well for themselves IRL)

Kind of ironic how the invisible hand of the market will kill capitalism.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

For the love of Picard, it's near impossible to find a top 10 DS9 episode list that doesn't have "Far beyond the stars" on it

[New haven america]

Welp, I'm gonna be the pariah of the thread: Far Beyond the Stars isn't that bad.

[New haven america]

You do realize that replicators are capable of replicating themselves, right?

Sure for a limited time, it would be a commodity for the rich, however, someone will find one, replicate one, and then spread it around, and there's nothing that could be done to stop the spread.

Also, you're thinking in a more capitalistic mindset, when post-scarcity societies are mostly socialist, so yeah... (And most democratic socialist/social democracy countries are actually doing incredibly well for themselves IRL)

Kind of ironic how the invisible hand of the market will kill capitalism.

Oh, definitely.

And if the invisible hand isn't able to kill it, then the general population usually will.