Scifi TV Discussion Thread

[Madiganistan]

There doesn't even need to be an argument-- just point that Journey's End is literally the exact same plot, except Picard is written consistent with his established character and Insurrection replaced the interesting moral dilemma between him and the Indian chieftain with the most awkward romance in cinematic history. Until Attack of the Clones came around, of course.

I find that it's generally just a good idea to pretend that the TNG movies aren't canon; they completely contradict everything that's been established about both the Star Trek universe and the identities of the main characters (most consequentially Picard, of course). Star Trek's one case where a comprehensive re-imagining actually created a better moviegoing experience than anything released after 1994-- at least the rebooted series incorporated the "alternate timeline" element which, while lazy and perhaps could've been more effectively executed, provides *some* sort of explanation for seeming contradictions in semantics and character.

So you choose to believe something truly great like First Contact doesn't exist, but things like The Motion Picture and The Final Frontier do...?

Absolutely!
While there's no questioning that First Contact is superior to all the other TNG films, that's kinda like saying having a horrible bout of the flu is superior to contracting AIDS. The film presents a Picard whose opinions of and actions toward the Borg are totally inconsistent with the Picard we get to know in the TV series, especially considering that the whole Hugh fiasco, and Picard's recognition that the Borg are a species in their own right, occurred after his assimilation.

The Motion Picture was great, because it knew what it was: a low budget science fiction film. TNG films try too hard to be action/adventure science fantasy films while working with material and a cast that were at their core science fiction.

What's "The Final Frontier?" Are you suggesting that there was a film between "The Voyage Home" and "The Undiscovered Country?"

Because there wasn't.

[Centro-Progressive Peoples Entity]

But in terms of the general legitimacy of Jean-Luc Picard's feelings towards the Borg compared to his feelings towards ALL foreign life, TNG is better. In the TNG television episode version of First Contact, Riker screwed everything up. The Federation could've ended up knowing so much more about the Borg, but he just destroyed them. Jerk.

[New haven america]

So you choose to believe something truly great like First Contact doesn't exist, but things like The Motion Picture and The Final Frontier do...?

Absolutely!
While there's no questioning that First Contact is superior to all the other TNG films, that's kinda like saying having a horrible bout of the flu is superior to contracting AIDS. The film presents a Picard whose opinions of and actions toward the Borg are totally inconsistent with the Picard we get to know in the TV series, especially considering that the whole Hugh fiasco, and Picard's recognition that the Borg are a species in their own right, occurred after his assimilation.

The Motion Picture was great, because it knew what it was: a low budget science fiction film. TNG films try too hard to be action/adventure science fantasy films while working with material and a cast that were at their core science fiction.

What's "The Final Frontier?" Are you suggesting that there was a film between "The Voyage Home" and "The Undiscovered Country?"

Because there wasn't.

No, The Motion Picture was a piece of crap trying to be the next 2001: A Space Odyssey, and failing miserably.

No, First Contact was staying Sci-fi/Adventure just like TNG, there was no hint of fantasy(Except maybe the time travel but it's not like time travel has never appeared in the ST universe), and Picard's actions are very believable: you have the most dangerous species in the galaxy in your ship, trying to destroy the greatest moment in human history and take over humanity, and you have a chance to kill them and end a conflict humanity shouldn't have been involved with to begin with. His actions were believable, and after what he went through, I'd expect anyone to act the way he did.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

After studying on the origins of Aikido, I see why it was Rodenberries MA of choice. It's designed to defend ones self while taking great care to minimize damage to the attacker.

[Madiganistan]

No, First Contact was staying Sci-fi/Adventure just like TNG, there was no hint of fantasy(Except maybe the time travel but it's not like time travel has never appeared in the ST universe)

This statement leads me to believe that you don't understand what "fantasy" is, insofar as the genre's actual definition is concerned.
Star Trek is science fiction-- science fiction is a genre in which the story universe is rooted in actual scientific theory; a lot of the boring, bland, unexciting dialog that "tries to be 2001 but fails miserably" is actually sort of a thought experiment exploring practical applications of presently abstract theories. As time went on Star Trek became more about the characters to be certain, but the vessel that served as the primary setting and its various functions, as well as the environments the Enterprise sought to explore and understand, always contained a grain of reality.
Star Wars is science fantasy-- a genre rooted in storytelling and character arcs. How the Millennium Falcon attains light speed matters less than the fact that it can, and needs to in order to fulfill certain plot purposes. In effect, the ship's light speed capability is "space magic."

[New haven america]

No, First Contact was staying Sci-fi/Adventure just like TNG, there was no hint of fantasy(Except maybe the time travel but it's not like time travel has never appeared in the ST universe)

This statement leads me to believe that you don't understand what "fantasy" is, insofar as the genre's actual definition is concerned.
Star Trek is science fiction-- science fiction is a genre in which the story universe is rooted in actual scientific theory; a lot of the boring, bland, unexciting dialog that "tries to be 2001 but fails miserably" is actually sort of a thought experiment exploring practical applications of presently abstract theories. As time went on Star Trek became more about the characters to be certain, but the vessel that served as the primary setting and its various functions, as well as the environments the Enterprise sought to explore and understand, always contained a grain of reality.
Star Wars is science fantasy-- a genre rooted in storytelling and character arcs. How the Millennium Falcon attains light speed matters less than the fact that it can, and needs to in order to fulfill certain plot purposes. In effect, the ship's light speed capability is "space magic."

I do know what fantasy, thanx for wondering darling.

No, there's actually being 2001, and attempting to be 2001(With horrible results). It wasn't the dialogue that was the most boring and unthought provoking thing in The Motion Picture(Though, it was up there), it was the horrendous pacing. 5 fucking minutes looking at the side of the Enterprise, 15 straight minutes of effects and random noises, 2 hours of practically nothing happening. Yep, that's true science fiction right there!

Also, First Contact already had, well, nearly all it's technology already explained in the series, and considering most people who watched it were already fans of TNG, they didn't need to be retold how it works. Yet again, about the space magic stuff, we didn't get an explanation on how time travel worked for the borg(But it has been rooted in the series many times before), so thank you for proving my point~

[Tarsonis Survivors]

No, First Contact was staying Sci-fi/Adventure just like TNG, there was no hint of fantasy(Except maybe the time travel but it's not like time travel has never appeared in the ST universe)

This statement leads me to believe that you don't understand what "fantasy" is, insofar as the genre's actual definition is concerned.
Star Trek is science fiction-- science fiction is a genre in which the story universe is rooted in actual scientific theory; a lot of the boring, bland, unexciting dialog that "tries to be 2001 but fails miserably" is actually sort of a thought experiment exploring practical applications of presently abstract theories. As time went on Star Trek became more about the characters to be certain, but the vessel that served as the primary setting and its various functions, as well as the environments the Enterprise sought to explore and understand, always contained a grain of reality.
Star Wars is science fantasy-- a genre rooted in storytelling and character arcs. How the Millennium Falcon attains light speed matters less than the fact that it can, and needs to in order to fulfill certain plot purposes. In effect, the ship's light speed capability is "space magic."

Sorry, it's not magic.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hyperspace

[Madiganistan]

This statement leads me to believe that you don't understand what "fantasy" is, insofar as the genre's actual definition is concerned.
Star Trek is science fiction-- science fiction is a genre in which the story universe is rooted in actual scientific theory; a lot of the boring, bland, unexciting dialog that "tries to be 2001 but fails miserably" is actually sort of a thought experiment exploring practical applications of presently abstract theories. As time went on Star Trek became more about the characters to be certain, but the vessel that served as the primary setting and its various functions, as well as the environments the Enterprise sought to explore and understand, always contained a grain of reality.
Star Wars is science fantasy-- a genre rooted in storytelling and character arcs. How the Millennium Falcon attains light speed matters less than the fact that it can, and needs to in order to fulfill certain plot purposes. In effect, the ship's light speed capability is "space magic."

Sorry, it's not magic.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hyperspace

Sorry, it is.
Almost every attempt to describe the in-universe properties of hyperspace takes place in the Star Wars expanded universe, which (as I'm going to assume you know) serves almost entirely as a mop-up crew attempting to rationalize the lazy inconsistencies in a series that seems to have the active disdain of its creator.

If you doubt this, bear in mind that this is a universe in which all technological capabilities of all spacefaring races remains completely consistent over the course of twenty five thousand years in an attempt to accommodate the fact that George Lucas couldn't decide whether the Jedi had been the guardians of peace throughout the galaxy for "a thousand years" or "a thousand generations."

Both the core and expanded universes of Star Wars are a lot of fun. But it's lofty, self-serving fantasy at its finest that doesn't worry about contradicting itself if plot is better served at the expense of consistency.

Kind of like the TNG movies.

[Arbolvine]

Sorry, it's not magic.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Hyperspace

Sorry, it is.
Almost every attempt to describe the in-universe properties of hyperspace takes place in the Star Wars expanded universe, which (as I'm going to assume you know) serves almost entirely as a mop-up crew attempting to rationalize the lazy inconsistencies in a series that seems to have the active disdain of its creator.

If you doubt this, bear in mind that this is a universe in which all technological capabilities of all spacefaring races remains completely consistent over the course of twenty five thousand years in an attempt to accommodate the fact that George Lucas couldn't decide whether the Jedi had been the guardians of peace throughout the galaxy for "a thousand years" or "a thousand generations."

Both the core and expanded universes of Star Wars are a lot of fun. But it's lofty, self-serving fantasy at its finest that doesn't worry about contradicting itself if plot is better served at the expense of consistency.

Kind of like the TNG movies.

Great defense of Star Trek. But you should have mentioned the Force. And lightsabers. Those are clearly magic.
But now I hate you for dissing TNG.

[The Creepoc Infinite]

Best Star Trek TNG villain!
Mine is Lore

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Best Star Trek TNG villain!
Mine is Lore

Meh I always found Lore to be too one dimensional.

I'd have to say Garek, though you can't really count him as a villain, just a man out for himself.

[The Creepoc Infinite]

Best Star Trek TNG villain!
Mine is Lore

Meh I always found Lore to be too one dimensional.

I'd have to say Garek, though you can't really count him as a villain, just a man out for himself.

Is that the guy who claimed to be from the future?

Or is that the collector who kidnapped data?

Because I like both of them too.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Meh I always found Lore to be too one dimensional.

I'd have to say Garek, though you can't really count him as a villain, just a man out for himself.

Is that the guy who claimed to be from the future?

Or is that the collector who kidnapped data?

Because I like both of them too.

Garak was the Cardassian Tailor on DS9 who was an outcast member of the the Obsidian Order.

[The Creepoc Infinite]

Is that the guy who claimed to be from the future?

Or is that the collector who kidnapped data?

Because I like both of them too.

Garak was the Cardassian Tailor on DS9 who was an outcast member of the the Obsidian Order.

My dad won't buy DS9 because it is, and I quote him on this, "lame and shitty"

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Garak was the Cardassian Tailor on DS9 who was an outcast member of the the Obsidian Order.

My dad won't buy DS9 because it is, and I quote him on this, "lame and shitty"

Your dad is lame and shitty. DS9 is the probably the best of all the series. Though Granted it's more like Babylon 5 than TNG

[Tarsonis Survivors]

My dad won't buy DS9 because it is, and I quote him on this, "lame and shitty"

You're dad is lame and shitty. DS9 is the probably the best of all the series. Though Granted it's more like Babylon 5 than TNG

In fact I wouldn't be surprised if DS9 was pushed specifically so Paramount could compete with Warner Bros.

[The Creepoc Infinite]

My dad won't buy DS9 because it is, and I quote him on this, "lame and shitty"

Your dad is lame and shitty. DS9 is the probably the best of all the series. Though Granted it's more like Babylon 5 than TNG

Nothing is better than TNG
But can you explain what makes DS9 so good? I have never seen it.

And my dad similarity won't buy shows like the walking dead because "zombies are stupid"
And he won't buy breaking bad because it looks "lame and overrated" in which the latter is likely true to a certain extent.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Your dad is lame and shitty. DS9 is the probably the best of all the series. Though Granted it's more like Babylon 5 than TNG

Nothing is better than TNG
But can you explain what makes DS9 so good? I have never seen it.

And my dad similarity won't buy shows like the walking dead because "zombies are stupid"
And he won't buy breaking bad because it looks "lame and overrated" in which the latter is likely true to a certain extent.

I never really got into TWD or BB.

It's hard to nail down why DS9 is so good, it's more character focused with long story arcs as opposed to "adventure of the week". Coupled with political intrigue, A war with battle scenes that make TNG look like a graphic design students project, and a Captain that in the later seasons puts Picard to shame.



You don't need to buy DS9 it's on netflix.

[The Creepoc Infinite]

Nothing is better than TNG
But can you explain what makes DS9 so good? I have never seen it.

And my dad similarity won't buy shows like the walking dead because "zombies are stupid"
And he won't buy breaking bad because it looks "lame and overrated" in which the latter is likely true to a certain extent.

I never really got into TWD or BB.

It's hard to nail down why DS9 is so good, it's more character focused with long story arcs as opposed to "adventure of the week". Coupled with political intrigue, A war with battle scenes that make TNG look like a graphic design students project, and a Captain that in the later seasons puts Picard to shame.



You don't need to buy DS9 it's on netflix.

I don't have netflix.
My dad won't get it because it's a "waste of my money"

[Tarsonis Survivors]

I never really got into TWD or BB.

It's hard to nail down why DS9 is so good, it's more character focused with long story arcs as opposed to "adventure of the week". Coupled with political intrigue, A war with battle scenes that make TNG look like a graphic design students project, and a Captain that in the later seasons puts Picard to shame.



You don't need to buy DS9 it's on netflix.

I don't have netflix.
My dad won't get it because it's a "waste of my money"

See I was joking about your Dad being lame, but now I'm starting to believe it.

Why Cisco is the best: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGcAbI-4_io

[The Creepoc Infinite]

I don't have netflix.
My dad won't get it because it's a "waste of my money"

See I was joking about your Dad being lame, but now I'm starting to believe it.

Why Cisco is the best: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGcAbI-4_io

He just hates and likes things based on trivial and unspecified reasons.

He hates the avengers movie because of the hulk being in it.
Now, I hate the hulk just as much as he does, but I still like the hell out of the movie.

[Madiganistan]

Great defense of Star Trek. But you should have mentioned the Force. And lightsabers. Those are clearly magic.
But now I hate you for dissing TNG.

TNG's by far my favorite Star Trek series. Just dissing the TNG movies-- which I hate because they're often totally inconsistent with character traits, beliefs, and often many fundamental technical principles established in the series.

Best Star Trek TNG villain!
Mine is Lore

Moriarty and Q for me, though they're both better described as antagonists rather than villains.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Great defense of Star Trek. But you should have mentioned the Force. And lightsabers. Those are clearly magic.
But now I hate you for dissing TNG.

TNG's by far my favorite Star Trek series. Just dissing the TNG movies-- which I hate because they're often totally inconsistent with character traits, beliefs, and often many fundamental technical principles established in the series.

Best Star Trek TNG villain!
Mine is Lore

Moriarty and Q for me, though they're both better described as antagonists rather than villains.

I dunno, Riker seems pretty consistsant

[Charellia]

Best Star Trek TNG villain!
Mine is Lore

Meh I always found Lore to be too one dimensional.

I'd have to say Garek, though you can't really count him as a villain, just a man out for himself.

Lore is interesting as a foil for Data, but he'd be a pretty weak villain on his own.

My favourite villain is Dukat. He's not quite as good as Garek, but as you point out, Garek's really more of an anti-hero.

[New haven america]

Rewatching DS9.

Only in bits and pieces though, can't watch it completely because my computer refuses to work right, so I have to rely on my 3DS. >_>

Been a while since I last watched it.