Scifi TV Discussion Thread

[Tarsonis]

They're technologically on par, but that doesn't mean they're scientifically on par. Science is one of those things that you get put of it what you put into it. If they're not putting a lot of work into stellar cartography for example, they're not gonna be as far along as the feds are. This is what I meant, their non military research is severely lacking. They might be ahead on military technology, but behind on astronomy and stellar anatomy.

I mean there's "we can't cause inverse space-time wedgies as well as the Feds" and there's "we didn't notice our own god damned star is being hinky". We'd probably notice our star moving towards nova with today's tech and telescopes.

we wouldn't even know what to look for

[Twilight Imperium]

If they're not putting a lot of work into stellar cartography for example, they're not gonna be as far along as the feds are. They might be ahead on military technology, but behind on astronomy and stellar anatomy.

we wouldn't even know what to look for

"Hey Fred, does the Sun look weird to you?"

The Romulans were a stellar empire with a population in the billions, you don't get to have that and no idea how stars work.

also stellar cartography is making space maps, which is almost a side effect of being in space

[Tarsonis]

we wouldn't even know what to look for

"Hey Fred, does the Sun look weird to you?"

The Romulans were a stellar empire with a population in the billions, you don't get to have that and no idea how stars work.

also stellar cartography is making space maps, which is almost a side effect of being in space

what part of "by all conventional knowledge it is impossible for yellow stars to go supernova" did you miss? It's not that they know nothing, but that they don't know enough to detect their yellow sun to going supernova, because it should not be possible for that to happen as far as the laws of physics tell us. Even if they detected solar activity going all hinky, making the connection that it's a precursor to an event that defies all the laws of physics is unlikely.

The Federation however, covered it, because they've seen a thing or two. They have data from a yellow star undergoing quantum implosion thanks to the Enterprise being present at one. Which makes sense. I imagine the conversation went like this.

Feds: hey romulans your sun is going to explode. we wanna help.

Romulans: yeah just because we're on better terms after the Shinzon incident, and the dominion war doesn't mean we're gonna fall for such an obvious ruse. That's not possible.

Feds: no really here's the data.

Romulans: not falling for it.

Romulan scientists:...um...actually when we compare the data it tracks with what we've observed from the sun lately. We thought it was weird but didn't even know this was possible.

Romulans:...aw fuck okay what did you have in mind Feds

[La Paz de Los Ricos]

we wouldn't even know what to look for

"Hey Fred, does the Sun look weird to you?"

The Romulans were a stellar empire with a population in the billions, you don't get to have that and no idea how stars work.

also stellar cartography is making space maps, which is almost a side effect of being in space

Fred for Praetor of the Romulan Star Empire.

[New haven america]

I mean there's "we can't cause inverse space-time wedgies as well as the Feds" and there's "we didn't notice our own god damned star is being hinky". We'd probably notice our star moving towards nova with today's tech and telescopes.

we wouldn't even know what to look for

Yes we would.

We have the tech and astronomic know how right now to tell what stars could potentially go nova.

[Tarsonis]

we wouldn't even know what to look for

Yes we would.

We have the tech and astronomic know how right now to tell what stars could potentially go nova.

no we don't. we have the tech to analyze red supergiants and formulate a general window of when they might go supernova, give or take 10,000 years. Take your Betelgeuse. Everyone got giddy with it dimming thinking it was ready to pop, but nope false alarm, just a build up of material on its surface that burned away and its back to normal brightness.

Nothing in our vast array would be able to tell us that a Yellow sun was about to defy everything we currently know about stars and go nova in the next 6 years.

[Jedi Council]

Just rewatched "Galaxies Child," (4x16 TNG) and I have to say, Geordi came out of it looking terrible.

They really did a disservice to the character and made him appear creepy and incredibly unreasonable. The only saving grace for the Episode was the B-plot about the alien entity. Patrick Stewart's acting was better than ever in this episode.

[Twilight Imperium]

-snip-

You seem to have a very specific picture of how this Romulan sun business went down. What is the source of your certainty?

Just rewatched "Galaxies Child," (4x16 TNG) and I have to say, Geordi came out of it looking terrible.

They really did a disservice to the character and made him appear creepy and incredibly unreasonable.

Poor Geordi, forever the Man with No Game.

[La Paz de Los Ricos]

-snip-

You seem to have a very specific picture of how this Romulan sun business went down. What is the source of your certainty?

Just rewatched "Galaxies Child," (4x16 TNG) and I have to say, Geordi came out of it looking terrible.

They really did a disservice to the character and made him appear creepy and incredibly unreasonable.

Poor Geordi, forever the Man with No Game.

Aside from that, Geordi really gets his butt handed to him throughout the series. Maybe even more than Worf.

So got an idea for a Trek story, but not sure on how I'll do it format wise; RP, fan fic or something else.

Basic premise is Trek meets Down Periscope.

Set during the Dominion War and with Starfleet hurting for personnel, an officer with a poor record gets landed with the command of a training ship. Reasoning being that it would free up more experienced officers for the front line, give cadets a bucket load of practical training and allow normal peacetime operations to be maintained.

The ship I'm thinking is an old Excelsior-class that is overdue for a refit, though said refit is rather low on the priority list as shipyards are being used to repair battle damaged vessels. Likewise, the cadets are about average in ability but Starfleet needs bodies in uniform. Most of the officers/instructors on the ship likewise don't have shining records or have been pulled off the retiree/auxiliary list.

As I said, not sure on what format to do for it...may do it as a RP if there is enough interest.

Also, any word on if this will become a reality?

[Tarsonis]

-snip-

You seem to have a very specific picture of how this Romulan sun business went down. What is the source of your certainty?

Just rewatched "Galaxies Child," (4x16 TNG) and I have to say, Geordi came out of it looking terrible.

They really did a disservice to the character and made him appear creepy and incredibly unreasonable.

Poor Geordi, forever the Man with No Game.

well let's see. There's astrophysics that tells us that under normal conditions a yellow star will not go nova because it has plenty of fuel for fusion left.

we have the Canon establishment that the Romulan Sun is a yellow star similar to ours.

we have quantum implosion that was a macguffin in star trek generations for artificially causing a yellow sun to go nova with the use of trilithium.

and we know that the Feds not the Romulans discovered the impending nova which further establishes that the Feds have superior knowledge of stars and that such a thing is not a normal occurrence or everyone would have figured it out.


put all the pieces together and it becomes the only obvious answer.

[Jedi Council]

You seem to have a very specific picture of how this Romulan sun business went down. What is the source of your certainty?




Poor Geordi, forever the Man with No Game.

Aside from that, Geordi really gets his butt handed to him throughout the series. Maybe even more than Worf.

So got an idea for a Trek story, but not sure on how I'll do it format wise; RP, fan fic or something else.

Basic premise is Trek meets Down Periscope.

Set during the Dominion War and with Starfleet hurting for personnel, an officer with a poor record gets landed with the command of a training ship. Reasoning being that it would free up more experienced officers for the front line, give cadets a bucket load of practical training and allow normal peacetime operations to be maintained.

The ship I'm thinking is an old Excelsior-class that is overdue for a refit, though said refit is rather low on the priority list as shipyards are being used to repair battle damaged vessels. Likewise, the cadets are about average in ability but Starfleet needs bodies in uniform. Most of the officers/instructors on the ship likewise don't have shining records or have been pulled off the retiree/auxiliary list.

As I said, not sure on what format to do for it...may do it as a RP if there is enough interest.

Also, any word on if this will become a reality?

1. Worf at least gets women. They all seem to die, but that's besides the point.

2. Star Trek RPs are notoriously hard to execute. It either would need to be immaculately planned with the OP/Captain as a DM style character, making the plot move forward, or it would need to be a setting, like a station or colony, where it's more sandbox, with characters making their own choices.

[Imperial isa]

Aside from that, Geordi really gets his butt handed to him throughout the series.

After watching that I'm left with how is he is not dead by the end of the show.

[La Paz de Los Ricos]

On another note, Short Treks.

Am I the only one who considers the episode "Ephraim and Dot" to be one of the most disrespectful things the new series have put out?

[Twilight Imperium]

On another note, Short Treks.

Am I the only one who considers the episode "Ephraim and Dot" to be one of the most disrespectful things the new series have put out?

Probably? What's disrespectful about it?

[Tarsonis]

Dr. Marr did nothing wrong.

[Auristania]

Aside from that, Geordi really gets his butt handed to him throughout the series. Maybe even more than Worf.



Also, any word on if this will become a reality?

1. Worf at least gets women. They all seem to die, but that's besides the point.

2. Star Trek RPs are notoriously hard to execute. It either would need to be immaculately planned with the OP/Captain as a DM style character, making the plot move forward, or it would need to be a setting, like a station or colony, where it's more sandbox, with characters making their own choices.

Worf has to ask Ryker's permission "Are you using your Imzadi right now?" Just like in Outsider Ryker gloats to Troii that he shags dudes now.

[La Paz de Los Ricos]

On another note, Short Treks.

Am I the only one who considers the episode "Ephraim and Dot" to be one of the most disrespectful things the new series have put out?

Probably? What's disrespectful about it?

Okay, so

1. If the episode is to be taken as canon, a whole number of things get skewed.

a.) Uh, so I guess this iteration of the Enterprise is just out of the canon? I mean, we see that apparently, there was no refit or anything between the captaincies of Pike and Kirk that would even allow her into Prime Timeline canon? So, that right there invalidates the entire body of work of Matt Jeffries and the team responsible for building and filming the shots of the Enterprise for the original series, because now it doesn't fit in with what this episode shows.

(Please don't say, "but it's not the sixties anymore, you hafta UPDAAAAATE", because no. Canon matters, canon matters, CANON MATTERS. Unexplained design changes are for video games and places where canon doesn't matter. Canon matters in Star Trek.) I should be grateful that they didn't go and "update" the Constitution Refit, too, but something tells me that won't last long.

At least the Kelvin Timeline has an in-universe reason for updating and changing the design the Enterprise. There's no point in changing the design here, at least in canon. None! And if there was some legal reason why the original Enterprise can't be used in the Kurtzman shows, then don't use her! But, I won't open that can of worms, because that's another argument and another destroyed keyboard for another day.

b.) Alright, now I'm gonna talk about the Enterprise-"A" we see in the short. As in, the fact that the animators for this short somehow didn't realize that NCC-1701 and NCC-1701-A were two entirely different ships. We see, in the episode, that the Enterprise which battles Khan and the Reliant in Trek II, and which was destroyed in orbit of the Genesis Planet in Trek III is, apparently, the Enterprise NCC-1701-A, evidence here. This is obviously a mistake, as we of true faith to real canon remember that the vessel which participated in these was the original-yet-refitted Enterprise NCC-1701. Of course, they were the same class, and very similar, but they were not the same! If this wasn't somehow just a huge accident on the animators' part (which I might be able to understand) and they somehow believe that the refit NCC-1701 was actual the NCC-1701-A, then that throws the canon of movies I to VI out the window entirely.

It also shouldn't make sense in the universe. If there was somehow a complete change of ship between the TOS-era Enterprise and the refit Enterprise, then that would mean that the Tardigrade eggs wouldn't be there. And even if it were the same ship, and they just painted a big "A" to the end of the registry after the refit was done, there was still a TOTAL REFIT! That engineering section with the eggs would have been entirely ripped out, and the eggs would still be gone! Didn't Decker mention during the first act of the Motion Picture that the refit Enterprise was "almost a totally new Enterprise" than the one Kirk knew? So not only is the greater canon of the series thrown into question, but the writers couldn't even maintain continuity within the damn episode itself! Eugh!

Also, just look at this fail. Look at the placement of the ship's registry on the saucer. Look at it That's inexcusable. I'm not an animator or modeler myself, but that shouldn't invalidate what I say here, because I can still recognize when something is animated poorly or incorrectly.

Say it with me now.

c.) A whole host of other tech and physics issues. First up, deflector dishes just don't work anymore? I mean, we see the Enterprise's hull make contact with an asteroid which should have been deflected by the field. That impact would probably have torn that spot of the ship open, but okay, I guess, whatever.

Oh, also, how does the Tardigrade keep making contact with the Enterprise when she seems to be moving at warp? Shouldn't the Tardigrade have been immediately sheared into atoms from the gravity differential from the space without the warp bubble to the space within it? Whatever, I guess Tardigrades are just invincible and the laws of life don't matter anymore, because SC13NCE C00L!!1!!one!!11!!!eleven!!!1.

Oh, yeah, and the fixing drone bots that got introduced sometime in Discovery Season Two are here. Because I guess these guys and the whole debate around them are just non-existent. I mean, we see that the Discovery fixer drone in this episode has some sort of emotions and the ability to express them.

This is mostly a complaint against the writers here just not giving a damn about the rules of the Star Trek universe and not doing their research. I mean, expecting to be able to write good content based off of an established universe and not doing your homework about that universe is pretty disrespectful, not just to the original creators of that universe, but to the fanbase around it as well.

d.) "But Los Ricos, this is meant to be a silly and fun adventure cartoon! Don't take it as necessarily canon!" Well, Kurtzman and co. have been nothing if not hellbent at convincing people that his dystopian and incompatible version of Star Trek takes place in Prime Timeline Canon, alongside the Original Series, the Next Generation, and more. So, I'm going all in. Everything Kurtzman and co. produce now must be one-hundred-percent canon in my eyes, and takes precedence over everything else Trek. Even if it blatantly violates the last fifty years of carefully constructed universe-building and writing. Because why not? Whatever, right? Screw canon! It's all just shooty-shooty evil AI adventure hour!



2. Tone and theme. We've gotta talk about tone and theme.

a.) I'm gonna mention this here, because I can't find another appropriate place to write it down, but in the beginning of the episode, we see the scene of Khan speaking to Kirk and McCoy in the Enterprise's sickbay, re-animated from Khan's debut episode "Space Seed". I get it, the writers and animators wanted to attempt to give bearings to when this takes place. And also, the nostalgia points among older Trek fans. But what I'm seeing here is blatant disrespect. As we know, the wonderful DeForest Kelley, Bones' actor, and the legendary Ricardo Montalbán, Khan's actor, have both passed away, both long before Kurtzman Trek became the new normal for Trek on TV. So, what's wrong?

Ignoring the fact that windows never appeared in sickbay, the next obvious thing is, well, they're animating both Kelley and Montalbán. Need I remind you these two beautiful people have passed away? Yeesh, me saying that they're re-animating these two almost sounds like necromancy. So why do it? Why animate these people again? That's, as far as I understand it, over-the-top disrespectful.

b.) Okay, I can, in theory, understand how this Short Trek was meant as a fun little cartoon. In doing so, however, they wreck a bunch of notable TOS episodes and the themes of morality that they provide, in order to show a fun, silly, quirky sort-of kid's cartoon.

Remember "The Savage Curtain"? Well, apparently it ends with the Enterprise getting Lincoln mad and flying away. Themes of the similarities of good and evil as concepts? Nope. Ideas of the antiquity of good and evil? Gone.

Remember "The Tholian Web"? Well, the Defiant plays no part in it, and it seems the Enterprise just wanders into the Tholians' web and flies away just as easily. Themes of the chain of command and the merits of logic and emotion? Nope. Portrayals of what a Captain must do in the line of duty to protect as many lives as possible? Gone.

This goes against other Kurtzman Trek canon. If the Defiant wasn't present at the interspace rift in The Tholian Web, then how do we see it in the Mirror Universe later in Discovery? I would assume that the whole Defiant arc with Star Trek Enterprise would be invalidated.

Remember the Motion Picture? Well, tough, it's just not present.

Remember the Wrath of Khan? Well, it's just summarized as a few seconds of battle between the Reliant and the Enterprise (again, notice the incorrect NCC-1701-A registry behind the Enterprise bridge). Thrilling conflict with slow pacing between quick, sharp battles? Nope. Intellectual cat-and-mouse chases and chess allegories? Gone.

Many of these scenes are just quick nostalgic references thrown in to attempt to satiate the audience. "Oh no, the alien bug is getting close to her eggs! Quick! Violate canon!"

And perhaps most egregious of all, remember the Search for Spock? Well, it's there. It's definitely there. "Hey, older Trek fans! Remember watching your beloved ship die in the theater? Haha, well, it's funny child cartoon now! Cry in a corner and suffer!"



3. "Oh, but Los Ricos, Ephraim and Dot is a cartoon! It doesn't need to follow the strict rules of canon! It's allowed to be funny, isn't it?" Well, that's what a few would say. To those I would like to introduce them to, oh what's it called?

Oh yeah, THE ANIMATED SERIES!

Remember that? That was a cartoon. However, it didn't need to egregiously and blatantly destroy the ideas that the Original Series portrayed. It didn't use its medium as an excuse to ignore the morality of Star Trek and portraying all these high-minded science-fiction concepts as funny children's cartoons. It used its medium as a way to enhance the Trek-verse that existed at the time. Adding more complex aliens like Arex and M'ress, being able to portray micro-gravity and zero-gravity more fluidly. They weren't without their humor, but they weren't so painfully overdone like Ephraim and Dot was.

So, in not so many words, Ephraim and Dot is a painful example of Kurtzman Trek's tendency to place storytelling (and poor storytelling at that) over themes, established canon, and fan preference. It tries to silence fan criticism about it by throwing in blatant fan-service and nostalgia-bait, all for the sake of a simple and unnecessary silly cartoon adventure.

I'll be honest, I actually wanted to like this. It was an interesting concept, and it was honestly better than the dark Trek we've been getting from Kurtzman and Chabon and whoever else (cool it with the eye torture, guys). But, I just couldn't ignore all the weird and inexcusable errors this short produced. It was sort of charming, the animation of Ephraim was, admittedly, very cute, and the cartoony aesthetic might have worked. But when I really looked at it, there was just so much blatant disrespect towards Roddenberry and the Trek fanbase. It was really a bit sad.

I'm not mad at Giacchino. He's done some impressive work for Trek the last decade. But I am mad at Kurtzman.

_{I mean, if anyone cares after this much time has passed between posts.}

[Twilight Imperium]

_{I mean, if anyone cares after this much time has passed between posts.}

I mean, I'd believe it took you that long to research all of that, holy crap. Thank you for very thoroughly answering my question.

That said, you did sort of answer your own question - it's a silly cartoon adventure. It's a stylized take on the "real" events (aka canon) and not supposed to supplant anything. I can see where it would set someone off if they were already thoroughly sick of new-Trek, but uh, maybe read back what you wrote and consider if it makes you look reasoned or well adjusted

You don't have to like nu-Trek, but maybe settle down about it eh?

[La Paz de Los Ricos]

_{I mean, if anyone cares after this much time has passed between posts.}

I mean, I'd believe it took you that long to research all of that, holy crap. Thank you for very thoroughly answering my question.

That said, you did sort of answer your own question - it's a silly cartoon adventure. It's a stylized take on the "real" events (aka canon) and not supposed to supplant anything. I can see where it would set someone off if they were already thoroughly sick of new-Trek, but uh, maybe read back what you wrote and consider if it makes you look reasoned or well adjusted

You don't have to like nu-Trek, but maybe settle down about it eh?

Yeah, you're right. I did sort of get unreasonably angry when I first saw the episode. It didn't really help that, by that point, I'd already sloughed through the entirety of Discovery and Picard (which I both hate passionately), and seeing another series of Trek content captained by Kurtzman made me discredit it without really giving it a chance (which isn't to say that Short Treks weren't bad, either, ahem, ahem).

I did give the episode a few rewatches, and all things considered, it's pretty harmless. I took your advice and tried to just think of it as a silly non-canon cartoon, and it helped. It isn't really as mean-spirited in reality as my other post made it out to be.

I'm still mad about the mismatched registries, but the short itself is actually alright.

[Mirjt]

If you could reincarnate into the Star Trek Universe, what political power would you want to be under? and what species would you want to be born as (for the sake of brevity, please do not mix more than three or four species together)?

For me, I would want to be born as half human (on my mother's side), and quarter Vulcan/quarter Deltan (on my father's side). I would want to be born to an independent planet that is aligned with the Federation, that split off from the Federation, but not a member of the Federation.

[Twilight Imperium]

I'm still mad about the mismatched registries, but the short itself is actually alright.

Let us unite in reasonable disdain of nu-Trek then, friend

[La Paz de Los Ricos]

If you could reincarnate into the Star Trek Universe, what political power would you want to be under? and what species would you want to be born as (for the sake of brevity, please do not mix more than three or four species together)?

For me, I would want to be born as half human (on my mother's side), and quarter Vulcan/quarter Deltan (on my father's side). I would want to be born to an independent planet that is aligned with the Federation, that split off from the Federation, but not a member of the Federation.

Well, reincarnating into the Trek universe sounds cool.

As for political entity, I'd for sure want to be born in the Federation. Probably sometime in the 25th century. Now that the Federation has largely overcome the Borg and Dominion threats, it can go back to exploring the galaxy and discovering strange new worlds. Obviously, I'd try my best to get into Starfleet. To have the opportunity to venture into space would be something I couldn't pass up.

As for species, I'd definitely choose to be a Trill. I mean, consider the possibilities. On the off-chance the Trill Initiate choose me for joining, it's practical immortality. Plus, the memories and life experience of all the previous hosts. Even if I don't get joined, I'd still get those cool leopard spots. It's a win-win either way.

[Tarsonis]

If you could reincarnate into the Star Trek Universe, what political power would you want to be under? and what species would you want to be born as (for the sake of brevity, please do not mix more than three or four species together)?

For me, I would want to be born as half human (on my mother's side), and quarter Vulcan/quarter Deltan (on my father's side). I would want to be born to an independent planet that is aligned with the Federation, that split off from the Federation, but not a member of the Federation.

Well, reincarmating into the Trek universe sounds cool.

As for political entity, I'd for sure want to be born in the Federation. Probably sometime in the 25th century. Now that the Federation has largely overcome the Borg and Dominion threats, it can go back to exploring the galaxy and discovering strange new worlds. Obviously, I'd try my best to get into Starfleet. To have the opportunity to venture into space would be something I couldn't pass up.

As for species, I'd definitely choose to be a Trill. I mean, consider the possibilities. On the off-chance the Trill Initiate choose me for joining, it's practical immortality. Plus, the memories and life experience of all the previous hosts. Even if I don't get joined, I'd still get those cool leopard spots. It's a win-win either way.

Why be the host when you can be the symbiont?

[La Paz de Los Ricos]

Well, reincarmating into the Trek universe sounds cool.

As for political entity, I'd for sure want to be born in the Federation. Probably sometime in the 25th century. Now that the Federation has largely overcome the Borg and Dominion threats, it can go back to exploring the galaxy and discovering strange new worlds. Obviously, I'd try my best to get into Starfleet. To have the opportunity to venture into space would be something I couldn't pass up.

As for species, I'd definitely choose to be a Trill. I mean, consider the possibilities. On the off-chance the Trill Initiate choose me for joining, it's practical immortality. Plus, the memories and life experience of all the previous hosts. Even if I don't get joined, I'd still get those cool leopard spots. It's a win-win either way.

Why be the host when you can be the symbiont?

No, thank you. I'm not gonna spend 500 years looking like the aftermath of a four-course meal at Taco Bell. They don't even get leopard spots.

I'd rather take my chances as a Trill.

[Mirjt]

Why be the host when you can be the symbiont?

No, thank you. I'm not gonna spend 500 years looking like the aftermath of a four-course meal at Taco Bell. They don't even get leopard spots.

I'd rather take my chances as a Trill.

Is it the Trill that has functional immortality as their personality traits, memories, and parts of their consciousness merges with the symbiont's and the symbiont's pass hosts to be passed on to the next host? or is it the symbiont able to live many lives and just move from host to host? or is it both?