General fallout discussion thread: Eureka!

[Karrgath]

Your notion is the one that is incorrect although not entirely.

It did exist back in the days of Richardson but in so far as a minor refueling outpost and its staff, what you see of the Enclave in NV is the remnants of their Navarro facility.

And the NCR only felled the Enclave because it was disorganized and weakened from the destruction of the Oil Brig.

Which is exactly what I said, just with more detail. The "recruitment" is 6(?) people, what an army you have there.

You made it sound as if the remnant forces didn't exist.

[Ayreonia]

Which is exactly what I said, just with more detail. The "recruitment" is 6(?) people, what an army you have there.

You made it sound as if the remnant forces didn't exist.

As an organized fighting force? They definitely don't.

[Yes Im Biop]

Which is exactly what I said, just with more detail. The "recruitment" is 6(?) people, what an army you have there.

You made it sound as if the remnant forces didn't exist.

They really don't unless you get em to join back together for one last show

[New Octopucta]

You made it sound as if the remnant forces didn't exist.

The Remnant still being alive doesn't mean the Enclave still exists any more than a few Nazi deserters meant the Nazi party still existed. When the Rig and Navarro were destroyed, the West Coast Enclave, as an organization, ceased to exist.

In terms of story and feel I felt that it was lacking something it seemed that everyone was just mulling around waiting for Hoover. It was fun an all but I didn't get me as much as fallout 3 did. That game actually felt like the Apocalypse with its setting, twisted characters and backstory. It wasn't just "oh great a bunch fiends guess I will just grab my fully upgraded assault machinegun" it was "Aww SHIT RAIDERS I ONLY GOT 6 HUNTING RIFLE ROUNDS AND A GRENADE" turns around corner "oh great super mutants". And you can't pick a decent side in NV the NCR just wanna own everything, the legion just want to see everything burn and house is an asshole. Independent for the win

As much as I love FO3, the difficulty curve absolutely mangles any attempt at creating a feeling of having to scrape and scour for enough to survive. For the first few levels, you've got to scavenge for anything you want and money, chems, and ammo are hard to come by. But by, level 10 (halfway through the leveling tree in the base game, or a 3rd of the way with Broken Steel), unless you've spent your time wandering the overworld without doing any quests or exploring any buildings or caves, you probably have top tier weapons and armor, 50-75+ in every stat that you care about, and more drugs than a Mexican cartel can dream of and you spend the rest of the game swatting aside everything but Super Mutant Behemoth's and Bethesda's few fake hard enemies like Overlords and basically everything in the Point Lookout DLC.

[Lunas Legion]

Which is exactly what I said, just with more detail. The "recruitment" is 6(?) people, what an army you have there.

You made it sound as if the remnant forces didn't exist.

There are more Remnant forces around. The Crashed Vertibird in NV is almost certianly Enclave and was heading south. So the Enclave are reorganising somewhere in Mexico (which would have several US Army bases in) or in Texas. Or that's my theory.

[Ceannairceach]

You made it sound as if the remnant forces didn't exist.

There are more Remnant forces around. The Crashed Vertibird in NV is almost certianly Enclave and was heading south. So the Enclave are reorganising somewhere in Mexico (which would have several US Army bases in) or in Texas. Or that's my theory.

The crashed vertibird is likely a homage to the one you can find in Fallout 2. Beyond that, Daisy, the Remnant's vertibird pilot, notes that she crashed a vertibird after it experienced malfunctions over Klamath. Not to mention, it has the same ID number as the one found in the Remnant bunker.

[Lunas Legion]

There are more Remnant forces around. The Crashed Vertibird in NV is almost certianly Enclave and was heading south. So the Enclave are reorganising somewhere in Mexico (which would have several US Army bases in) or in Texas. Or that's my theory.

The crashed vertibird is likely a homage to the one you can find in Fallout 2. Beyond that, Daisy, the Remnant's vertibird pilot, notes that she crashed a vertibird after it experienced malfunctions over Klamath. Not to mention, it has the same ID number as the one found in the Remnant bunker.

The devs were probabaly too lazy to reskin it with a new ID number. And then there's the massive cluster of Hardened robots that surround it, which would have been dropped by the Enclave to protect its cargo; the Tesla-Beaton Prototype while they fled, since this one crashed due to mechanical faults.

[New Octopucta]

There are more Remnant forces around. The Crashed Vertibird in NV is almost certianly Enclave and was heading south. So the Enclave are reorganising somewhere in Mexico (which would have several US Army bases in) or in Texas. Or that's my theory.

I find it more likely that the Vertibird was simply a leftover from when the Enclave still existed. A mission that was lost after the bird crashed, or some such.

I don't understand what the obsession is with the Enclave coming back, to be honest. We're talking about the leaders of the military industrial complex, some of the politicians that were in their pocket, and their cronies. The vast majority of their manpower, their entire command structure, and the last major source of power for their vertibirds was destroyed when the Rig blew, their only confirmed mainland base on the West Coast with their stock of weapons, vertibirds, and armor as well as another significant chunk of their manpower was taken out by NCR. That should have been the end of it, as far as I'm concerned, but I don't make the rules, so Beth decided that a group of Enclave managed to make it east to the DMV and set up shop at Andrews Air Force Base and Raven Rock. They had the men to fight off the BOS initially, but then both bases got blown up and they were killed more or less to a man. Now considering that the Enclave are so anti-mutant that they were willing to completely eliminate all life in the mainland US to eradicate mutants, where could they possibly find the manpower to come back again? Any remaining former Enclave members are people like the Remnants, or the guy from Grayditch: people who fled the Enclave's destruction and just want to live out the rest of their lives.

[Ceannairceach]

The crashed vertibird is likely a homage to the one you can find in Fallout 2. Beyond that, Daisy, the Remnant's vertibird pilot, notes that she crashed a vertibird after it experienced malfunctions over Klamath. Not to mention, it has the same ID number as the one found in the Remnant bunker.

The devs were probabaly too lazy to reskin it with a new ID number. And then there's the massive cluster of Hardened robots that surround it, which would have been dropped by the Enclave to protect its cargo; the Tesla-Beaton Prototype while they fled, since this one crashed due to mechanical faults.

It really doesn't matter. As far as we know, that vertibird came from the Remnant. End of.

[Lunas Legion]

The devs were probabaly too lazy to reskin it with a new ID number. And then there's the massive cluster of Hardened robots that surround it, which would have been dropped by the Enclave to protect its cargo; the Tesla-Beaton Prototype while they fled, since this one crashed due to mechanical faults.

It really doesn't matter. As far as we know, that vertibird came from the Remnant. End of.

The Enclave, if there are any left, aren't going to be a centralized group any more. I can see some doing what Ashur did, and making themselves Chiefs over tribes and the like.

[Starkiller101]

Fallout 3 is better than fallout new vegas

[Lunas Legion]

Fallout 3 is better than fallout new vegas

Different styles of game. One is focused on the factions, while the other is focused on the Wasteland.

[Starkiller101]

Fallout 3 is better than fallout new vegas

Different styles of game. One is focused on the factions, while the other is focused on the Wasteland.

Yeah i guess thats true but fallout 3 has better dlc than fallout new vegas has.

[Morrdh]

Different styles of game. One is focused on the factions, while the other is focused on the Wasteland.

Yeah i guess thats true but fallout 3 has better dlc than fallout new vegas has.

Really its more of a matter of opinion.

I loved Point Lookout from F3 and thought The Pitt was halfway decent, prefer Honest Hearts and Lonesome Road over Operation Anchorage (not done story missions for Broken Steel and not even got Mothership Zeta).

[Ceannairceach]

Different styles of game. One is focused on the factions, while the other is focused on the Wasteland.

Yeah i guess thats true but fallout 3 has better dlc than fallout new vegas has.

I disagree. The DLC's for F3 were disjointed and unrelated. The DLC's for F:NV could be a game in and of themselves.

[Starkiller101]

Yeah i guess thats true but fallout 3 has better dlc than fallout new vegas has.

I disagree. The DLC's for F3 were disjointed and unrelated. The DLC's for F:NV could be a game in and of themselves.

well i guess your right

[New Octopucta]

The Enclave, if there are any left, aren't going to be a centralized group any more. I can see some doing what Ashur did, and making themselves Chiefs over tribes and the like.

Then the scattered former Enclave members and their adoptive tribes aren't the Enclave any more than Ashur and his band of raiders is the Brotherhood of Steel.

[Lunas Legion]

The Enclave, if there are any left, aren't going to be a centralized group any more. I can see some doing what Ashur did, and making themselves Chiefs over tribes and the like.

Then the scattered former Enclave members and their adoptive tribes aren't the Enclave any more than Ashur and his band of raiders is the Brotherhood of Steel.

That's my point. The Enclave aren't a force any more. Just a once-feared name and their survivors have split.

[Karrgath]

Then the scattered former Enclave members and their adoptive tribes aren't the Enclave any more than Ashur and his band of raiders is the Brotherhood of Steel.

That's my point. The Enclave aren't a force any more. Just a once-feared name and their survivors have split.

I don't know we have confirmation that their Main Command Post was in the Reconverted And reinforced Oil Rig but that doesn't mean it was their only Base. Adams was rapidly converted into an Enclave instillation in the years since their trek across the country. My point is you have an organization that was tied heavily into the richest most influential circles of the pre war american government and military industrial complex.

An organization with known ties to Vault Tech i would remind you; The possibility of them having Command Bunkers elsewhere isn't even beyond remote possibility. Its Probable. If they do have their own series of Vaults though; Off the grid then you could easily have a population within the low tens of thousands of the remaining enclave; Their Military capacity could still be enough to wage effective campaigns if they retook a few lost positions.

The NCR caught a break and got the Enclave after it was bruised fighting the BOS and Chosen One; When it was nothing beyond the scant men it had its remaining bases and outposts. When it could engage them it did; when it couldn't? It ignored them.

Point is the Enclave like others have said isn't dead til the Dev team and writers say so.

Personally? Not my favorite faction, a middling antagonistic group as far as 2 went; lacked the Menace of the Master and his army but an alright stand in. But Three is where they really shined in my eye; They existed in a region for years relatively unknown, it was only when they choose to reveal themselves and seize control of portions of the wasteland much like in 2 nearly a century beforehand did they become a known entity again.

This could EASILY happen again; You have a faction with the best technology, the industrial capacity and Zeal to seize power.

Still future incarnations of the Enclave would be more enjoyable if they actually adopted a more...tolerant few people of their Wasteland Cousins. But then that really wouldn't be the Enclave i guess.

[Orham]

Oh so now you know his mind? Why he formed the Legion, expanded it into a Legitimate State and Carved an Empire for himself. Personal Speculation and motives aside; Whatever the Motivations he formed a system free of the NCR's taint.

Yes, I know Caesar's mind quite well. He's not shy about spilling his guts on why and how Legion was established, there's no speculation to it. Caesar spells out in explicit detail why he founded the Legion when the player initiates the dialogue tree beginning with "Why is Caesar's Legion so...strange?". Further information can be gathered from the "What do you think of the NCR" dialogue tree.

Caesar makes it quite plain that Legion is the product of ideological differences between himself and the NCR. He believes in totalitarianism, autocracy, militarism, and ultranationalism. He speaks of unifying all people under a monolithic cultural identity which reveres the national ideal (Rome) above all else, including the people themselves as individuals. In order to further this end, Caesar established a cult of personality around himself and named himself dictator, the human embodiment of Legion's ideals.

We on the NCR side of the fence vehemently disagree with Caesar on all counts, believing strongly that liberal democracy can and should thrive in the post-war world. We hold that Caesar's Legion bears absolutely no legitimacy with respect to its claims of sovereignty (even within its occupied territory), and as a result we will oppose the Legion even over control of the smallest pebble.

And i recall the Legion won most most of the Battles following that one.

Let's pull ourselves out of the story for a moment and look at FO:NV itself analytically. That should shed some light on this.

Setting up a war between The Republic and the Goldfish Poop Gang isn't especially exciting for the audience. Legion needed to be given some teeth so it could be taken seriously as The Empire, which is who The Republic is supposed to be set up to fight in FO:NV. Hence the Legion victories at Nelson, Nipton, Cottonwood Cove, and Camp Searchlight.

Legion wouldn't pose a substantive threat, and thus wouldn't be believable enemies for the NCR, if they hadn't had any victories since the First Battle of Hoover Dam. Considering the description we're given with respect to the extent of the damage Legion suffered after that battle (they lost virtually all of their military projection capacity for years, and their leader still carries significant emotional wounds), and further considering the significant proportion of the map which is designated NCR-controlled territory at the start of the game, Legion needed the writers to hand them a lot of victories along the river in order for them to be considered The Empire instead of the Goldfish Poop Gang. A baying Cerberus instead of a yapping chihuahua long past its prime.

That said Hanlon was a good commander

I was left with the impression that Hanlon was certainly a competent field commander, but also that he was a bit short-sighted about the overall war effort. Legion is guaranteed to chase NCR home and try to destroy it. We know this because Caesar tells us he sees conflict between the two powers as inevitable (even desirable). Withdrawing from the Mojave and allowing Legion to gather its strength there is an unacceptable result from the NCR's viewpoint. Legion must be completely destroyed if NCR is to survive, and the sooner the better.

I'd actually be pretty happy with Col. Hsu being promoted and given the title of Commander of Operations in the Mojave. He's levelheaded, competent, well-beloved by the troops, and has a firm grasp of the need for NCR in the big picture of the Mojave's future. If NCR didn't put Oliver in charge, I'd nominate Hsu. After Hsu, I'd nominate Oliver. After Oliver, I'd nominate Moore. After Moore, I'd nominate Hanlon.

Oliver? Not so much...

I see what Oliver was going for. He effectively wanted to establish a wall along the river to prevent the Legion from crossing, with extra emphasis on the Hoover Dam. I suppose it makes sense, but that wall can't hold up unless the supply lines are kept flowing. Oliver didn't pay enough attention to securing supply lines, which would be necessary in order to maximize NCR's access to ammo hot off the press and food fresh from the field. That's probably the biggest hole in his strategy, a lack of attention to supply lines and an excessive concentration of forces at the Hoover Dam instead of spreading them more evenly along the river and supply lines thereto.

My other complaint is that the Ranger Veterans belonged along the river and supply lines from the beginning. They had no reason to be in Baja, so they shouldn't have been in Baja. It's a relatively minor complaint considering there was an ample supply of Rangers posted in the Mojave throughout the game and that the Ranger Veterans are called for pretty quickly, but it's still a complaint I considered worth voicing.

[Morrdh]

I thought the West Coast and East Coast Enclave were separate branches?

[Orham]

I thought the West Coast and East Coast Enclave were separate branches?

Both were Enclave installments, though apparently they weren't in communication with one another until after Richardson was gone. After that, Eden sent orders as the new President to the remaining West Coast Enclave personnel to report to Raven Rock. Colonel Autumn's father then led as many of the West Coast personnel as would follow him to the DC metropolitan area, with those staying behind forming what we now call the Enclave Remnants.

[Mad hatters in jeans]

I thought the West Coast and East Coast Enclave were separate bitches?

Damn it brain.

[Karrgath]

Oh so now you know his mind? Why he formed the Legion, expanded it into a Legitimate State and Carved an Empire for himself. Personal Speculation and motives aside; Whatever the Motivations he formed a system free of the NCR's taint.

Yes, I know Caesar's mind quite well. He's not shy about spilling his guts on why and how Legion was established, there's no speculation to it. Caesar spells out in explicit detail why he founded the Legion when the player initiates the dialogue tree beginning with "Why is Caesar's Legion so...strange?". Further information can be gathered from the "What do you think of the NCR" dialogue tree.

Caesar makes it quite plain that Legion is the product of ideological differences between himself and the NCR. He believes in totalitarianism, autocracy, militarism, and ultranationalism. He speaks of unifying all people under a monolithic cultural identity which reveres the national ideal (Rome) above all else, including the people themselves as individuals. In order to further this end, Caesar established a cult of personality around himself and named himself dictator, the human embodiment of Legion's ideals.

We on the NCR side of the fence vehemently disagree with Caesar on all counts, believing strongly that liberal democracy can and should thrive in the post-war world. We hold that Caesar's Legion bears absolutely no legitimacy with respect to its claims of sovereignty (even within its occupied territory), and as a result we will oppose the Legion even over control of the smallest pebble.

And i recall the Legion won most most of the Battles following that one.

Let's pull ourselves out of the story for a moment and look at FO:NV itself analytically. That should shed some light on this.

Setting up a war between The Republic and the Goldfish Poop Gang isn't especially exciting for the audience. Legion needed to be given some teeth so it could be taken seriously as The Empire, which is who The Republic is supposed to be set up to fight in FO:NV. Hence the Legion victories at Nelson, Nipton, Cottonwood Cove, and Camp Searchlight.

Legion wouldn't pose a substantive threat, and thus wouldn't be believable enemies for the NCR, if they hadn't had any victories since the First Battle of Hoover Dam. Considering the description we're given with respect to the extent of the damage Legion suffered after that battle (they lost virtually all of their military projection capacity for years, and their leader still carries significant emotional wounds), and further considering the significant proportion of the map which is designated NCR-controlled territory at the start of the game, Legion needed the writers to hand them a lot of victories along the river in order for them to be considered The Empire instead of the Goldfish Poop Gang. A baying Cerberus instead of a yapping chihuahua long past its prime.

That said Hanlon was a good commander

I was left with the impression that Hanlon was certainly a competent field commander, but also that he was a bit short-sighted about the overall war effort. Legion is guaranteed to chase NCR home and try to destroy it. We know this because Caesar tells us he sees conflict between the two powers as inevitable (even desirable). Withdrawing from the Mojave and allowing Legion to gather its strength there is an unacceptable result from the NCR's viewpoint. Legion must be completely destroyed if NCR is to survive, and the sooner the better.

I'd actually be pretty happy with Col. Hsu being promoted and given the title of Commander of Operations in the Mojave. He's levelheaded, competent, well-beloved by the troops, and has a firm grasp of the need for NCR in the big picture of the Mojave's future. If NCR didn't put Oliver in charge, I'd nominate Hsu. After Hsu, I'd nominate Oliver. After Oliver, I'd nominate Moore. After Moore, I'd nominate Hanlon.

Oliver? Not so much...

I see what Oliver was going for. He effectively wanted to establish a wall along the river to prevent the Legion from crossing, with extra emphasis on the Hoover Dam. I suppose it makes sense, but that wall can't hold up unless the supply lines are kept flowing. Oliver didn't pay enough attention to securing supply lines, which would be necessary in order to maximize NCR's access to ammo hot off the press and food fresh from the field. That's probably the biggest hole in his strategy, a lack of attention to supply lines and an excessive concentration of forces at the Hoover Dam instead of spreading them more evenly along the river and supply lines thereto.

My other complaint is that the Ranger Veterans belonged along the river and supply lines from the beginning. They had no reason to be in Baja, so they shouldn't have been in Baja. It's a relatively minor complaint considering there was an ample supply of Rangers posted in the Mojave throughout the game and that the Ranger Veterans are called for pretty quickly, but it's still a complaint I considered worth voicing.

I notice you haven't lost the habit of jumping into conversations that are not directed to you and after they have ended.

And I also notice you cherry picked my responses; Gave a Pro NCR trite reasoning and basically left it at that.

And Oliver for all intents and purposes was a fool who believed he could guard the entirety of the Colorado against the Nation beyond. Which by sheer logistics and Manpower would be an impossibility for the NCR within the Region by the time he attempted it. Hanlon stated as much and i take his word for it. No by the time his little fortification project went up the Legion was already within the Territory thus rendering the entire thing moot to begin with.

And the NCR's corruption again is the answer to your complaint.

Your can't ask a self interested society to stop being self interested.

Their upper class will always use their military as their personal battering ram, their upper class will likely always hold the government in a stranglehold as long as militant expansionism is on the NCR's to do list. To fund that Campaign Kimbell opened a can of worms, He put his Nation into immense debt and ignored the consequences of this; You then need to factor into the equation that their economy wasn't overly strong to begin with since the BOS war.

So basically the NCR is fighting a war it couldn't afford with resources it doesn't have against a foe it cannot defeat.

And people wonder why i think the damn thing is a decade or so from collapse.

[Orham]

I notice you haven't lost the habit of jumping into conversations that are not directed to you and after they have ended.

Private conversations are conveyed via telegrams. Posts in threads such as this one are open for discussion by anyone, anytime. If you want to have a private conversation about this or any other subject, use telegrams. And while we're on the subject of conversations ending, it hardly strikes me as out of line to comment on a conversation which was still taking place on the immediately preceding page.

Given the way you opened this post, I see no reason to address another thing you've said. You wanted the conversation to end? Done.